The Nasuverse calculations issue

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't mind doing a general revision for this actually

 

[KLOL506]

No clue about how Rel KE should apply to giant-based calcs so...

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Migue79 Ummmmmmm.... help?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Soooooo I tried something, in the style of the original, I'm not sure if this will be accepted given how lorentz factor works
here is the math if you care, its the backscaled rel ke


if it does get rejected, I think the large size calculation page should just cross off any value for the table past low 5b as low5b+ is where the rel stuff begins and replace it with a simple breakdown of how to use the scale factor formulas instead, DT's blog original blog explains it but the large size calc page does not

 

[DontTalkDT]

You can use relativistic KE.
However, upscaling is not recommended.
As the Large Size Calculations page says "The best practice is to measure the speed directly from the source material."
If you see her move, then use that to figure out how fast.
If you don't see her move in a fashion that tells you how fast she is, how do you know she can move with the same speed as a human relative to her body size? Is it stated?

 

[KLOL506]

You can use relativistic KE.
However, upscaling is not recommended.
As the Large Size Calculations page says "The best practice is to measure the speed directly from the source material."
If you see her move, then use that to figure out how fast.
If you don't see her move in a fashion that tells you how fast she is, how do you know she can move with the same speed as a human relative to her body size? Is it stated?

So would finding out her upscaled mass and calculating her speed individually to then find rel KE via the calculator be a valid move?

 

[DontTalkDT]

That would IMO be the best practice. (with the usual rel. KE considerations applying)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

You can use relativistic KE.
However, upscaling is not recommended.
As the Large Size Calculations page says "The best practice is to measure the speed directly from the source material."
If you see her move, then use that to figure out how fast.
If you don't see her move in a fashion that tells you how fast she is, how do you know she can move with the same speed as a human relative to her body size? Is it stated?

I mean if she can play with a planet for fun using her legs i dont see an issue tbh, its just that calculating the speed of a woman using a planet as a sex toy is uhh.....tedious to say the least (I'll still do it if you really want it but the upscale method is just more convenient)

 

[KLOL506]

I mean if she can play with a planet for fun using her legs i dont see an issue tbh, its just that calculating the speed of a woman using a planet as a sex toy is uhh.....tedious to say the least (I'll still do it if you really want it but the upscale method is just more convenient)

If there's a hole there's a way. (AND NOT ONE MORE ASTOLFO JOKE ABOUT ME)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I’ll do the rest of the giantess calc tomorrow since I’m tired today

If there's a hole there's a way. (AND NOT ONE MORE ASTOLFO JOKE ABOUT ME)

 

[Wankbreaker]

I just remembered something. Kiara’s growth in particular is attributed to malignant information/ curses, and not “physical” mass.


The "Hole of Heaven" is a variant of the True Magic known as Third Magic.

Although it draws substances into itself with ultra gravity like a black hole, its true nature is considered to be a disposal chute.

"Something inconvenient to possess when humans do good deeds".

The beast crowned with the title of the "Hole of Heaven" is the malignant data of selfish humans──────

She accepts "All the World's Desires" and continues to spread it.

Although it is undeniably repulsive and stagnant, this hole is a mechanism that is indispensable for society, expanding in scale at the same rate as intelligent activity is carried out.

For human beings, it's something that shouldn't exist, as it amasses their repulsive desires.

This is kinda reflected on her FGO profile, with her height ranging from 166cm(her normal height) to half a yojana, while her weight is

53~??kg

Basically, an unknown quantity. So I don’t think it’s exactly proper/accurate to ascertain a value from this.

I’ll do the rest of the giantess calc tomorrow since I’m tired today

 

[StrymULTRA]

If you don't see her move in a fashion that tells you how fast she is, how do you know she can move with the same speed as a human relative to her body size? Is it stated?

...we literally do. Did you even see the feat lol?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I just remembered something. Kiara’s growth in particular is attributed to malignant information/ curses, and not “physical” mass.


The "Hole of Heaven" is a variant of the True Magic known as Third Magic.



This is kinda reflected on her FGO profile, with her height ranging from 166cm(her normal height) to half a yojana, while her weight is


Basically, an unknown quantity. So I don’t think it’s exactly proper/accurate to ascertain a value from this.

I do not think any of this can be used to debunk anything. Her physical mass can still increase through magic, and if the peak is listed as unknown, we just calculate it.

We do use fan calculations for every giant who has not any stated height and weight, and this is no exception.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yeah, it not being spelled out that her mass didn’t jump isn’t really a defeater lol and the 53 kg value works perfectly for our required mass figure

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean if she can play with a planet for fun using her legs i dont see an issue tbh, its just that calculating the speed of a woman using a planet as a sex toy is uhh.....tedious to say the least (I'll still do it if you really want it but the upscale method is just more convenient)

If you think her moving the planet proves she can output as much energy, then you should just calc moving the planet based on how fast you see her move the planet.

...we literally do. Did you even see the feat lol?

So why does the calc use upscaled human speed instead of measuring her speed from seeing her move? That's introducing error for no reason.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

If you think her moving the planet proves she can output as much energy, then you should just calc moving the planet based on how fast you see her move the planet.

So why does the calc use upscaled human speed instead of measuring her speed from seeing her move? That's introducing error for no reason.

she does not move the planet, she basically ***** it to put it bluntly and it remains stationery



I'll try fetching the speed separately in a few mins tho dont worry, even tho one is more convenient this way it would be more accurate


is the mass upscaling fine since it is inherently doing the same thing as the speed upscale?

 

[Wankbreaker]

I do not think any of this can be used to debunk anything. Her physical mass can still increase through magic, and if the peak is listed as unknown, we just calculate it.

Malignant information is stated to be extremely low density, and at least less dense than a human.

「生命そのものが持つエネルギー生産量、もしくは質量を段階として定義したものです。

-- その基準はシンプルで、<規模|おおきさ>と<重量|おもさ>とで計られます」

-- 「一番強いものが“小さくて重いもの”。

-- 二番目に強いものが“大きくて重いもの”。

-- 三番目が“小さくて軽いもの”。これは人間ですね。

-- そして最後に“大きくて軽いもの”。これは情報や噂話、幽霊といった広範囲に拡がるものです」

-- "It defines the energy production or mass inherent to life itself in stages.

-- The criteria are simple, measured by scale|size and weight|mass."

-- "The strongest is what is 'small and heavy.'

-- The second strongest is what is 'large and heavy.'

-- The third is what is 'small and light.' This refers to humans.

-- And finally, what is 'large and light.' These are things that spread widely, like information, rumors, or ghosts."


So your metric of density is (far below human levels), as Kiara’s size is entirely based on using malignant information to expand. You can see this reflected with the difference between her maximum height being a very known quantity, and the weight being… not that.

Though as it is an Anti-Planet NP, Planetary destruction seems apt to scale to, though that’s separate from attempting to calculate her NP visuals

We do use fan calculations for every giant who has not any stated height and weight, and this is no exception.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Idk much about inverse things so I’ll let Strym answer for those


If the KE can’t be used what if we calculated the explosion launched at Archer that seems to be pretty huge (unless I got the name wrong)

(Or just 5B via erasing a planet like ya said)

Snip

Btw since you said you are willing to see any other fate calc other than the Kiara stuff could you look at the moon drop calc i did in this same thread to see if its valid or not?

 

[StrymULTRA]

-- "It defines the energy production or mass inherent to life itself in stages.

-- The criteria are simple, measured by scale|size and weight|mass."

-- "The strongest is what is 'small and heavy.'

-- The second strongest is what is 'large and heavy.'

-- The third is what is 'small and light.' This refers to humans.

-- And finally, what is 'large and light.' These are things that spread widely, like information, rumors, or ghosts."


So your metric of density is (far below human levels), as Kiara’s size is entirely based on using malignant information to expand. You can see this reflected with the difference between her maximum height being a very known quantity, and the weight being… not that.

Yeah, to expand, not that she's literally made of that tho.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So why does the calc use upscaled human speed instead of measuring her speed from seeing her move? That's introducing error for no reason.

I thought it was enough from this:

The best practice is to measure the speed directly from the source material. Should that not be possible, but it is known that the character moves relative to its size as fast or faster than its normal-sized counterpart, upscaled speed can be used. To confirm that they are that fast, it must be clear that they, for instance, take steps within the same timeframe or less than a normal human would. If that is the case, then their speed should be x-times higher than that of their normal-sized counterpart, if they are x-times larger.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Yeah, to expand, not that she's literally made of that tho.

Forgot, Kiara’s FGO profile lists her Beast form’s weight as straight up none. CCC Kiara works on the same principle

Beast III/R​

Class: Beast

True Name: Heaven's Hole/The Tenma Natured Boddhisatva of Pleasure Ruling the Souls of Sumeru

Gender: Female

Source: Fate/Grand Order

Region: City of the Pleasure of Rebirth SE.RA.PH

Alignment: Chaotic Good

Height/Weight: half a yojana~???/None

Strength: C Endurance: EX Agility: B Mana: EX Luck: A NP: EX

 

[StrymULTRA]

Forgot, Kiara’s FGO profile lists her Beast form’s weight as straight up none. CCC Kiara works on the same principle

I am pretty sure that we do treat instances where stated values are absolute BS to be discarded in favor of fan calcs.

Even then, a Yojana is equivalent to between 3.5 and 15 km, I cannot see how it applies here.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I am pretty sure that we do treat instances where stated values are absolute BS to be discarded in favor of fan calcs.

The idea that she has a comically low density is something that’s made clear here, though. Which isn’t surprising, considering the previous statement.

Even then, a Yojana is equivalent to between 3.5 and 15 km, I cannot see how it applies here.

Half a Yojana is her minimum height, the maximum is “??”, or unknown.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The idea that she has a comically low density is something that’s made clear here, though. Which isn’t surprising, considering the previous statement.

Yeah, to expand, not that she's literally made of that tho.

You did not really address this, you just info dumped me with stuff that doesn't really read to me as her having super low density.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I thought it was enough from this:

The best practice is to measure the speed directly from the source material. Should that not be possible, but it is known that the character moves relative to its size as fast or faster than its normal-sized counterpart, upscaled speed can be used. To confirm that they are that fast, it must be clear that they, for instance, take steps within the same timeframe or less than a normal human would. If that is the case, then their speed should be x-times higher than that of their normal-sized counterpart, if they are x-times larger.

So do you have seen them take steps in the same or less time as a normal human would while in the giant form?
Like, people underestimate what that means. Humans aren't that slow. 220 steps per minute is apparently usual when sprinting. That 3.6 steps each second or one step in 0.27 seconds.
And, like, as it says in general best practice is to measure speed from the source material. If you're already figuring out a speed number to prove they are as fast as upscaled, then there is just little reason not to use that same number in the calculation itself.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And, like, as it says in general best practice is to measure speed from the source material. If you're already figuring out a speed number to prove they are as fast as upscaled, then there is just little reason not to use that same number in the calculation itself.

I suppose I'd have to redo this calculation in the speed part given that is gotten from just upscaling (though we still having him rotating his head at least) not that it matters much as it's just a trivial calc for a Tier 1 verse :V

Same with this, would I need to get the speed of the "step" they make in the video?

 

[Wankbreaker]

You did not really address this, you just info dumped me with stuff that doesn't really read to me as her having super low density.

The profile says that she IS that information

The beast crowned with the title of the "Hole of Heaven" is the malignant data of selfish humans──────

She accepts "All the World's Desires" and continues to spread it.

Although it is undeniably repulsive and stagnant, this hole is a mechanism that is indispensable for society, expanding in scale at the same rate as intelligent activity is carried out.

For human beings, it's something that shouldn't exist, as it amasses their repulsive desires.

As explained earlier, this information is less dense than a human.

And I hope I don’t have to explain why her profile literally setting her weight to “None” means that she has extremely low density.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Wouldn't none just mean it is not calculated? or that it is beyond calculation (writers arent powerscalers so it would be hard to assign a value like that), I can see where you are coming from tho

 

[Wankbreaker]

Wouldn't none just mean it is not calculated? or that it is beyond calculation (writers arent powerscalers so it would be hard to assign a value like that), I can see where you are coming from tho

Nasu is very clear about if and when this is the case.

Stellar Marie profile​

Height/Weight: 242 cm (main body) / impossible to observe
Source: Fate/Grand Order
Birthplace: Sky above the equator, near the thermosphere
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Sub-Alignment: Star
Gender: Woman
Likes: None
Dislikes: Earth

Tiamat:

Unlock: Primal Planet, Admiring the Sky
Height/Weight: 160 cm ~ 74000000 km²(3)・??kg
Source: Ancient Mesopotamian Mythology
Region: Mesopotamia
Alignment: Chaotic Evil　　Gender: Female
The black mud is also included in Tiamat’s height. However, the mud is made of imaginary numbers, so her weight is unquantifiable.
Meanwhile, Tiamat’s volume is infinite. In other words, she is a four-dimensional pocket.

Grand Marie profile​

Height: At least 100 meters!
Weight: Don't you know you can't measure how heavy Earth is?
Source: Fate/Grand Order
Birthplace: America, Mount Rushmore
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Sub-Alignment: Sky
Gender: Woman
Likes: Earthlings (because they are the source of her strength)
Dislikes: The Universe (because its clearly bigger than her)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Nasu is very clear about if and when this is the case.


Tiamat:

God damn bros not gonna let Fate supporters breathe

Anyways that does look like convincing evidence for me to consider her mass calc invalid, unless you want a calculation for her explosion attack we can chalk this up to 5B for what seems to be erasure of the planet

 

[StrymULTRA]

God damn bros not gonna let Fate supporters breathe

Anyways that does look like convincing evidence for me to consider her mass calc invalid, unless you want a calculation for her explosion attack we can chalk this up to 5B for what seems to be erasure of the planet

I do not think we can assume anything above the baseline 5-B as we don't see the pieces exploding/expanding away from center of the planet, meaning that we cannot use KE or anything similar for this.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yeah Earth GBE is all you got to work with so it’ll be just be that unless wankbreaker pulls out some obscure entry that debunks the idea that it’s a real planet

 

[Wankbreaker]

Yeah Earth GBE is all you got to work with so it’ll be just be that unless wankbreaker pulls out some obscure entry that debunks the idea that it’s a real planet

nope, don’t have that up my sleeve, Earth GBE is acceptable to use, imo

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Great! We are all at an agreement then, now we just need the moon drop calc to be evaluated and two cgms to say yes to all the changes to the calcs linked in the OP and then we can wrap this up

 

[KLOL506]

Given that Wank has been banned for their nefarious acts and their reasonings may also be sketch (Pending further investigation, but it's not looking good), I see no reason to take their counterarguments at face value anymore.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

My goat got snuffed out noo


anyways should we have a supporter show the actual scans regarding the mass entries and then confirm if anything needs to be done