BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Barragan being No 2 is interesting considering what CFYOW revealed. If I recall correctly he is supposed to be Iko’s rival before he was sealed by Ichibei.

 

[Crobatman44]

Respira is cracked tbh.
Out of curiosity by the way to anyone who knows the full Respira scaling chain well,are Jakuho Raikoben,BG9 and TYBW Soifon affected by it?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Respira is cracked tbh.
Out of curiosity by the way to anyone who knows the full Respira scaling chain well,are Jakuho Raikoben,BG9 and TYBW Soifon affected by it?

If you ask me, I'd call this an outlier. Because if you were to scale Baraggan's 1-armed Bankai, Soi Fon, it would be like putting BG9 above Grimmjow.

Also, in this wiki, they consider Baraggan's younger self to be stronger than his older counterpart and Espada. So, they wouldn't scale the Ikomikdomoe from 1000 years before Soi Fon could hit with his Bankai.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Insanity (from the Kisuke CRT).

I didn't open Kisuke's CRT anyway

I mean I get saying that Ulquiorra's second form probably places him above Number 4, but just because Yammy is trash doesn’t mean he doesn't have the most Reiatsu or anything like that. It's like the fan idea that Barrigan is only Number 2 because Aizen trolled him, rather than just accepting that Starkk has more total energy and probably joined later timeline wise.

I see what you mean. There will be arguments that haven't been used before in the Espada CRT (or at least not in this wiki). So there won't be things like "Aizen ranked Baraggan number 2 to bully him", "Halibel ranked him number 3 because she's pretty", "Grimmjow ranked low because he's disrespectful".

 

[Naeblis495]

If you ask me, I'd call this an outlier. Because if you were to scale Baraggan's 1-armed Bankai, Soi Fon, it would be like putting BG9 above Grimmjow.

BG9 would decimate Grimmjow, mid diff.

 

[LordTracer]

If you ask me, I'd call this an outlier. Because if you were to scale Baraggan's 1-armed Bankai, Soi Fon, it would be like putting BG9 above Grimmjow.

Unless there’s evidence for that being contradictory, that’s not an argument.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Suì-Fēng's Bankai first attempt to Barragan was useless though, she needed Hacchigen's help to keep the explosion near Barragan to damage him the 2nd time, let's say, in a fair 1vs1 situation, no one would have really won against him.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Unless there’s evidence for that being contradictory, that’s not an argument.

BG9 would decimate Grimmjow, mid diff.

Meninas considers Base Grimmjow's GRC to be lethal. This clearly indicates that Grimmjow > BG9. BG9 also takes damage from Soi Fon. Soi Fon is clearly weaker than Byakuya. Byakuya feels the need to activate his bankai to defeat Robert. Meninas has been stated to be stronger than Robert.

Now, as a counter-argument, you could say that Meninas in the novel didn't have volstandig like in the Tybw arc and was zombified. However, Grimmjow was also in base form. He has a stronger ressurection and a Desgarron attack that is stronger than his GRC.

Baraggan is not only stronger than Grimmjow, but much stronger. How will BG9 close the gap of at least 10x?

I would also scale based on Ayon's superiority over Quilge, but when I wrote about it last year, you said, "Couldn't Ayon be stronger than before?" On the contrary, there's the detail of being summoned without ressurection, which shows that he might be weaker than before.

 

[Bastolan27]

Unless there’s evidence for that being contradictory, that’s not an argument.

Would recognize that panel anywhere. Goated taste, best character in comic book history.

 

[LordTracer]

Would recognize that panel anywhere. Goated taste, best character in comic book history.

Ayyyyy, a fellow Cass enjoyer! Best character indeed, she’s still here despite the higher-ups trying to sabotage her.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Meninas considers Base Grimmjow's GRC to be lethal. This clearly indicates that Grimmjow > BG9. BG9 also takes damage from Soi Fon.

No it doesn't.

Soi Fon is clearly weaker than Byakuya. Byakuya feels the need to activate his bankai to defeat Robert. Meninas has been stated to be stronger than Robert.

Meninas was stated to be more powerful than robert where? Also byakuya consistently uses his bankai for many reasons other than the power level of his opponent. It is more like he used the Bankai to end the fight quickly than Robert being stronger or that he was trying to blitz him and his bankai was fast enough to stop him.

Now, as a counter-argument, you could say that Meninas in the novel didn't have volstandig like in the Tybw arc and was zombified. However, Grimmjow was also in base form.

Okay? What's this supposed to prove? Because I don't get this argument.

I would also scale based on Ayon's superiority over Quilge, but when I wrote about it last year, you said, "Couldn't Ayon be stronger than before?" On the contrary, there's the detail of being summoned without ressurection, which shows that he might be weaker than before.

They use their arms to summon him, ayon doesn't scale to them so their base forms weakening him isn't an argument unless there is evidence to believe so

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Meninas was stated to be more powerful than robert where?

It is already accepted in her profile that she is stronger than Robert.

Also byakuya consistently uses his bankai for many reasons other than the power level of his opponent. It is more like he used the Bankai to end the fight quickly than Robert being stronger or that he was trying to blitz him and his bankai was fast enough to stop him.

Byakuya doesn't use his bankai against anyone who doesn't require it. We know this from the SS arc. He even stated that he used Senkei against two people, the second being Ichigo.

Besides this, using bankai against someone you can defeat without one would needlessly drain your stamina. Opponents might learn about your bankai ability and take precautions against it.

He also never stated that he used bankai to end fights quickly. If that were the case, he would have started with bankai against anyone he despised, like Renji, Ichigo, and Zommari. But even against them, he felt compelled to use bankai, so he did.

Okay? What's this supposed to prove? Because I don't get this argument.

Even if Vollstandig opens, I think Grimmjow can also switch to Resurrection. Even if Vollstandig opens, the gap between them won't close.

They use their arms to summon him, ayon doesn't scale to them so their base forms weakening him isn't an argument unless there is evidence to believe so

The arms of their Resurrection forms are stronger than those of their base forms. Summoning Ayon with a stronger arm makes them stronger in every way. Simply put, they're using an arm with more reiatsu. Blood loss weakens arrancar abilities. After taking too many hits and shedding blood from Quilge, they summoned Ayon.

 

[Crobatman44]

If you ask me, I'd call this an outlier. Because if you were to scale Baraggan's 1-armed Bankai, Soi Fon, it would be like putting BG9 above Grimmjow.

Also, in this wiki, they consider Baraggan's younger self to be stronger than his older counterpart and Espada. So, they wouldn't scale the Ikomikdomoe from 1000 years before Soi Fon could hit with his Bankai.

You know when i asked this i was not expecting an answer from someone who im fairly certain would be against the full respira scaling chain iirc.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Also, in this wiki, they consider Baraggan's younger self to be stronger than his older counterpart and Espada.

I'm pretty sure we don't, especially since Barragan implies he was at his strongest in the Fake Karakura Town arc, if I recall correctly.

So, they wouldn't scale the Ikomikdomoe from 1000 years before Soi Fon could hit with his Bankai.

Barragan doesn't even scale to the stronger versions of Ikomikidomoe since they only fought before the latter went on a rampage through the Soul Society and the Royal Palace (and Ikomikidomoe explicitly gets stronger by consuming stuff).

 

[Specterxxxx]

It is already accepted in her profile that she is stronger than Robert.

Fair.

Byakuya doesn't use his bankai against anyone who doesn't require it.

Robert required it but it wasn't because of strength, it was to end the fight quickly and the fact that he was trying to blitz him. I never said byakuya doesn't use his bankai on those that don't require it don't strawmann me.

We know this from the SS arc. He even stated that he used Senkei against two people, the second being Ichigo.

Senkei is a technique of his bankai not his bankai itself these are two different things. The same SS arc he used Bankai on a shikai ichigo while initially having the belief of Ichigo being weaker than him. That very arc negates your argument. He doesn't use Senkei unless he doesn't have a choice but he uses bankai very quickly.

Besides this, using bankai against someone you can defeat without one would needlessly drain your stamina.

The same byakuya has more stamina than characters who can fight or work for days to even weeks without rest. I think his stamina is fine.

Opponents might learn about your bankai ability and take precautions against it.

They are already have daten on byakuya already lol, byakuya has literally used his bankai more than anyone in the series besides ichigo at this point. They have more than enough information about it and byakuya himself knows this already.

He also never stated that he used bankai to end fights quickly.

I never said he stated that, but he was already dominating a regular voltstanding robert without Shikai even while fighting the other two. I only said because it is strong possibility rather than blatant relativity.

If that were the case, he would have started with bankai against anyone he despised, like Renji, Ichigo, and Zommari.

He didn't start bankai against robert either.

But even against them, he felt compelled to use bankai, so he did.

And none of those fights made him use bankai because they were on his level according to byakuya believes.

• In Renji's case, he uses it after he overpowered him with shikai and an Unincanted kido to show Renji the difference between them.
• In Zommari same thing, he could already beat him with Shikai but decided to use bankai to complete negate his ability.
• In ichigo's, he didn't think shikai ichigo was on his level but decided to use his bankai on him anyway

Even if Vollstandig opens, I think Grimmjow can also switch to Resurrection. Even if Vollstandig opens, the gap between them won't close.

Based off what reasoning.

The arms of their Resurrection forms are stronger than those of their base forms. Summoning Ayon with a stronger arm makes them stronger in every way.

Again, Ayon doesn't scale from or to them so this speculation is invalid and has no evidence.

Simply put, they're using an arm with more reiatsu. Blood loss weakens arrancar abilities. After taking too many hits and shedding blood from Quilge, they summoned Ayon.

Ayon's power doesn't come from them, summoning ayon doesn't mean their combined reaitsu is on his level

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I mean I get saying that Ulquiorra's second form probably places him above Number 4, but just because Yammy is trash doesn’t mean he doesn't have the most Reiatsu or anything like that. It's like the fan idea that Barrigan is only Number 2 because Aizen trolled him, rather than just accepting that Starkk has more total energy and probably joined later timeline wise.

Knowing what we learned about Starrk, I feel like this is... interesting. We know his stronger, pre-split self was so strong, Aizen didn't want to face him. Pre-Hogyoku Baraggan could clapped by Aizen, Gin, and Kaname. Now, pre-split Starrk is leaps and bounds above the Starrk we actually saw, but it's still kinda interesting.

This is ignoring the statements we have just straight-up proving Starrk > Baraggan though, lol.

I'm pretty sure we don't, especially since Barragan implies he was at his strongest in the Fake Karakura Town arc, if I recall correctly.

Nah, we do because Baraggan doesn't do that, at least privately speak though. The wiki doesn't have a tabber for a hypothetical "prime Baraggan" or accepted scaling regarding that.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Ayon's power doesn't come from them, summoning ayon doesn't mean their combined reaitsu is on his level

So, is there any proof that Ayon is stronger than before? Even if he's not losing weight as I think he is, it can't be proven that he's gotten stronger either.

 

[Naeblis495]

So, is there any proof that Ayon is stronger than before? Even if he's not losing weight as I think he is, it can't be proven that he's gotten stronger either.

Ayon couldn't even kill strong vice captains with a cero in FKT and in TYBW he is fodderizing with his bare hands Voll + Blut Quilge who no sold a serious GT from fullbring Shikai Ichigo to the neck.

How could you even think he didn't get stronger is beyond me.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Ayon couldn't even kill strong vice captains with a cero in FKT and in TYBW he is fodderizing with his bare hands Voll + Blut Quilge who no sold a serious GT from fullbring Shikai Ichigo to the neck.

Not being able to kill isn't an anti-feat. In most fictional series, even if their AP is much higher than their opponent's durability, they will exceed their durability, but a character whose durability is exceeded doesn't always die. This isn't always an anti-feat for someone who can't kill.

Furthermore, the lieutenants Ayon shot were healed by Izuru Kira.

And if whether or not they die is so important to you, let me remind you that Quilge didn't die either.

 

[Naeblis495]

Not being able to kill isn't an anti-feat. In most fictional series, even if their AP is much higher than their opponent's durability, they will exceed their durability, but a character whose durability is exceeded doesn't always die. This isn't always an anti-feat for someone who can't kill.

Furthermore, the lieutenants Ayon shot were healed by Izuru Kira.

And if whether or not they die is so important to you, let me remind you that Quilge didn't die either.

Ayon had Quilge's neck do a dab. if it was a shinigami, it would be 100% dead.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Nah, we do because Baraggan doesn't do that, at least privately speak though. The wiki doesn't have a tabber for a hypothetical "prime Baraggan" or accepted scaling regarding that.

Really?

Baraggan does say that Aizen granted him power.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

So, is there any proof that Ayon is stronger than before? Even if he's not losing weight as I think he is, it can't be proven that he's gotten stronger either.

His feats are proof

You understand that Fullbring Bankai Ichigo is stronger than SAFWY Zaraki right? You understand that Fullbring Bankai Ichigo is so powerful, they think it's possible he can pull something off even when Yamamoto died?

Really?

Baraggan does say that Aizen granted him power.

Think about this hypothetical:

Let's say I'm in my 20s, and I'm super strong, I can bench 315. Then, I go 40 years without training, but someone gives me steroids. Am I gonna be stronger than I was before immediately? Probably not

Ayon had Quilge's neck do a dab. if it was a shinigami, it would be 100% dead.

Ya'll are forgetting how strong Fullbring Shikai and Bankai are. I'm gonna have to do a respect thread on them or something, lol.

Not being able to kill isn't an anti-feat. In most fictional series, even if their AP is much higher than their opponent's durability, they will exceed their durability, but a character whose durability is exceeded doesn't always die. This isn't always an anti-feat for someone who can't kill.

Furthermore, the lieutenants Ayon shot were healed by Izuru Kira.

And if whether or not they die is so important to you, let me remind you that Quilge didn't die either.

This is 100% an Anti-Feat, what the f*ck??? His cero doesn't even cut through a lieutenant. A cero from segunta etapa ulquiorra cut cut a hole through Ichigo, and TYBW Ayon would bite SE Ulquiorra's head off.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

This is 100% an Anti-Feat, what the f*ck??? His cero doesn't even cut through a lieutenant. A cero from segunta etapa ulquiorra cut cut a hole through Ichigo, and TYBW Ayon would bite SE Ulquiorra's head off.

According to what exactly: Ayon>Ulquiorra
You think this is because you're scaling Fullbring Bankai to Yhwach. But that's completely wrong. Among the CRTs I'm considering unlocking is the CRT that reduces Ichigo's Fullbring Bankai. You got a 4-A because Yhwach, who wasn't interested in fighting, burned his arm. The fact that the character matches Quilge alone proves that he's not Base Yhwach's level.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

This is 100% an Anti-Feat, what the f*ck??? His cero doesn't even cut through a lieutenant

Yhwach also couldn't kill Liltotto. By your logic, is this an anti-feat for Yhwach? A character's inability to kill another character can't be an anti-feat for AP. Not being able to overcome their Dura is an anti-feat. As long as the story writer wants them to remain alive, the character won't die anyway.

I don't know if you've seen the Naruto series. Isshiki punches Konohamaru in the face, and Konohamaru's Dura is broken, but he doesn't die. Does Konohamaru rise to 4-B, or does Isshiki fall to 6-C?

 

[Specterxxxx]

According to what exactly: Ayon>Ulquiorra
You think this is because you're scaling Fullbring Bankai to Yhwach. But that's completely wrong. Among the CRTs I'm considering unlocking is the CRT that reduces Ichigo's Fullbring Bankai. You got a 4-A because Yhwach, who wasn't interested in fighting, burned his arm. The fact that the character matches Quilge alone proves that he's not Base Yhwach's level.

How was he not interested in fighting? Where is the evidence of that.

Yhwach also couldn't kill Liltotto. By your logic, is this an anti-feat for Yhwach?

No, because Yhwach was asleep and was toying with them that logic doesn't apply to Ayon who is a raging beast that was actively trying to kill them.

A character's inability to kill another character can't be an anti-feat for AP.

It depends on the context of the situation, in Ayon's case it does. And also, you speculate a lot from what I have seen and you seem to have the idea that we need to prove Ayon isn't on the same strength level but we don't. You on the other hand need to prove otherwise.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

How was he not interested in fighting? Where is the evidence of that.

Now, you know the thing I mentioned earlier about stamina dropping when surprised. Yhwach is surprised when Ichigo's Blut Vene activates, and after being surprised, he takes damage from Ichigo.

Besides this, we know Ichigo can strengthen depending on his emotional state. He's angry because of what happened to Soul Society. The aura he emits when he's about to launch his first attack against Yhwach confirms that he has a rage buff.

So, the Ichigo who can burn Yhwach's arm is much stronger than the Ichigo who fought Quilge. This is because he has both a rage buff and a quincy buff. In the fight with Quilge, he only used his quincy power to break the Jail.

After burning Yhwach's arm, he says, "Did you think you won just because you dodged my attacks?" This is clearly confirmed by Yhwach's surprised face when he thinks he's won and turns away, but at the last moment, Ichigo's Blut Vene activates. Indeed, Yhwach prevails again later in the scene.

We should also remember that Yhwach wants him to join his side. How logical would it be for him to kill or injure someone he wants to win? His words, "I'll drag you away, even if it's the hard way," and even his final words, "I'll come back just for you," prove this.

All things considered, if you say Yhwach and Fullbred Ichigo are in the same league, that would put Pre-Aushwalen Jugram on this level, as he was able to cut through Fullbred Ichigo's sword. But then Jugram loses to Sealed Tenjiro. Base Yhwach, on the other hand, can fight Ichibei, and Ichibei is an unsealed member of Squad Zero. This would clearly cause circular scaling.

No, because Yhwach was asleep and was toying with them that logic doesn't apply to Ayon who is a raging beast that was actively trying to kill them.

What about Starrk's example? His ceros are powerful enough to damage Love and Rojuro. But he stated that his ceros couldn't kill them, so he felt compelled to use wolves.

 

[AppleLord]

Not being able to kill isn't an anti-feat. In most fictional series, even if their AP is much higher than their opponent's durability, they will exceed their durability, but a character whose durability is exceeded doesn't always die. This isn't always an anti-feat for someone who can't kill.

Furthermore, the lieutenants Ayon shot were healed by Izuru Kira.

And if whether or not they die is so important to you, let me remind you that Quilge didn't die either.

Momo didn’t die from Lille Barro’s attacks. Lille Barro is definitely Momo level.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Yhwach also couldn't kill Liltotto. By your logic, is this an anti-feat for Yhwach? A character's inability to kill another character can't be an anti-feat for AP. Not being able to overcome their Dura is an anti-feat. As long as the story writer wants them to remain alive, the character won't die anyway.

His attacks didn't fail to pierce Liltotto. If you punch through someone, and they survive being punched through that's one thing.

It's different if you try to punch through someone and you can't.

His cero couldn't "punch through" said lieutenant.

According to what exactly: Ayon>Ulquiorra
You think this is because you're scaling Fullbring Bankai to Yhwach. But that's completely wrong. Among the CRTs I'm considering unlocking is the CRT that reduces Ichigo's Fullbring Bankai. You got a 4-A because Yhwach, who wasn't interested in fighting, burned his arm. The fact that the character matches Quilge alone proves that he's not Base Yhwach's level.

Ayon scales to FB Bankai and he scales to Urahara.

FB Bankai > Urahara, who is base Aizen level.

All things considered, if you say Yhwach and Fullbred Ichigo are in the same league, that would put Pre-Aushwalen Jugram on this level, as he was able to cut through Fullbred Ichigo's sword. But then Jugram loses to Sealed Tenjiro. Base Yhwach, on the other hand, can fight Ichibei, and Ichibei is an unsealed member of Squad Zero. This would clearly cause circular scaling.

We already adressed this argument, and proved it's wrong. We know for a fact that Jugram doesn't scale to that level, and Ichigo just received the beating of his life at that point, he's cooked. That's not regular Ichigo.

 

[Naeblis495]

Ya'll are forgetting how strong Fullbring Shikai and Bankai are. I'm gonna have to do a respect thread on them or something, lol.

I know, Ichigo by that point is already a monster and is near Yama level.

And Ayon doing better than Fullbring Shikai Ichigo by damaging Quilge throught Blut make him a monster by default as well.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Hiya I've been reading Bleach as of late and I noticed something on this wiki regarding Reiatsu Crush. It's implied that strength has nothing to do with how effective a RC is, so I'm wondering if there was a statement for that? If the statement is in the TYBW Arc lmk cuz I'd rather not be spoiled as I'm still finishing that.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Hiya I've been reading Bleach as of late and I noticed something on this wiki regarding Reiatsu Crush. It's implied that strength has nothing to do with how effective a RC is, so I'm wondering if there was a statement for that? If the statement is in the TYBW Arc lmk cuz I'd rather not be spoiled as I'm still finishing that.

I think what you're thinking of is that we don't treat other series as being able to resist Spiritual Pressure by being physically strong.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

I think what you're thinking of is that we don't treat other series as being able to resist Spiritual Pressure by being physically strong.

Simply having greater stats doesn't protect you from the RC and Spiritual Pressure, right?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Simply having greater stats doesn't protect you from the RC and Spiritual Pressure, right?

Pretty much.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Pretty much.

Being physically stronger won't help you to avoid Spiritual pressure, fair enough. I assume you need to have something similar to Bleach spiritual power to counteract pressure. Some powerful deities with correspondingly divine Soul would resist, isn't? And spiritual pressure wouldn't work on soulless being, or can it?
What happens when Bleach character tries to soul crash Undertale characters, where they explicitly have soul power, and DETERMINATION directly increases it?

 

[Naeblis495]

Reiatsu is both AP and hax based. There is a physical pressure aspect of it that can be resisted by raw durability but it won't save you from being affected by the other stuff, like your soul being affected, paralize effect, fear aura etc.

So far, no scaling chain have been made for soul crush potency, so merely having enough dura (somewhat in the same ballpark to the bleach characther AP being used) and baseline soul resistance should allow to not instantly die from it at least.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Reiatsu is both AP and hax based. There is a physical pressure aspect of it that can be resisted by raw durability but it won't save you from being affected by the other stuff, like your soul being affected, paralize effect, fear aura etc.

Thanks.
Btw, we had Aizen vs Asriel matchup(it was declared stomp in favour of Asriel), and some argued that Bleach supporters didn't actively participate due to verse undergoing massive revisions. Were these revisions finished?

 

[Naeblis495]

Thanks.
Btw, we had Aizen vs Asriel matchup(it was declared stomp in favour of Asriel), and some argued that Bleach supporters didn't actively participate due to verse undergoing massive revisions. Were these revisions finished?

Nope. We are waiting for TYBW cour 4 to finish to properly establish the new scaling. So mid 2026 at the earliest i would say.

 

[AppleLord]

Why is nobody asking why is Vizard guy Hachi have a zanpakutou inside the Kido cube? We about to see Hachi’s Shikai and Bankai in Cour 4?

 

[AppleLord]

What’s the best easy way to prove Bleach characters power system work in both AP & durability? Like how is it connected?

 

[Qawsedf234]

What’s the best easy way to prove Bleach characters power system work in both AP & durability?

Kenpachi vs Ichigo is pretty straightforward in terms of explaining more Reiatsu = more everything.