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Kamar Taj Sorcerers
Reinforced Shields Rewording
currently, kamar taj sorcerers (ancient one, strange, supreme strange, wong, kaecilius, mordo, sinister strange) all have an “up to multi-continent level” via reinforced shields from blocking wanda’s attacks
but apparently reinforced shields isn’t rlly official for what they used against wanda & like it was based off of my assumption it would be called that bc wong told them to “reinforce the shield”
and like from the art of MoM, it actually says that the kamar taj sorcerers were creating “immense mandala shield walls”, so they were technically just tao mandalas. instead of “at least Mountain level with tao mandalas, up to at least Multi-Continent level with reinforced shields” - it should be “at least Mountain level, up to at least Multi-Continent level with Tao Mandalas”
Witches
Abilities + Upgrades
Wiccan
Making his justifications for his ‘likely at least High 6-A’ rating more detailed:
Also his 9-B should be changed to at least 8-C, since Agatha was able to harm Wanda with her magic, and he should be stronger than Agatha since some of his magic was able to power-up Agatha to her fullest
New Abilities
Clean Ups
Rio Vidal
Major Removals and Changes
The Darkhold
High 3-A Removal
it was accepted in this thread that wanda wouldn’t have Low 2-C from destroying the darkhold because she redirected its dark magic into its own source and cut off the links of every copy to the source of their powers instead of like using the darkhold’s actual power to directly destroy all of them at once, so the darkhold, which is currently High 3-A bc of wanda using its magic to destroy infinite copies of itself, should be removed
Removal of Justifications
These justifications should also be removed:
Dormammu
More Resistances & Abilities
Scarlet Witch
Multiverse of Madness
Agree: Imaginym, Godernet, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
Neutral:
Disagree:
Reinforced Shields Rewording
currently, kamar taj sorcerers (ancient one, strange, supreme strange, wong, kaecilius, mordo, sinister strange) all have an “up to multi-continent level” via reinforced shields from blocking wanda’s attacks
but apparently reinforced shields isn’t rlly official for what they used against wanda & like it was based off of my assumption it would be called that bc wong told them to “reinforce the shield”
and like from the art of MoM, it actually says that the kamar taj sorcerers were creating “immense mandala shield walls”, so they were technically just tao mandalas. instead of “at least Mountain level with tao mandalas, up to at least Multi-Continent level with reinforced shields” - it should be “at least Mountain level, up to at least Multi-Continent level with Tao Mandalas”
Witches
- Longevity (Witches can live for hundreds of years, as witches like Lilia Calderu has lived for 450 years and Jennifer Kale has been alive for at least a hundred years)
- Applies to the Scarlet Witch and MCU: What If…? Scarlet Witch
Abilities + Upgrades
- Portal Creation (Opened a portal into a space that replicated Wanda’s memories, which also led to outside of her own house)
- Summoning -> Weapon Control (Is able to summon the Darkhold and also store it away)
- Corruption (Her dark magic took over the blasts of her coven, which drained them of their life force once it came into contact with their magic. Turned Wanda’s chaos magic into her own)
- Stealth Mastery (Adapted the role of Agnes, which she used to deceive Wanda and to get closer to her)
- Social Influencing (Deception:Pushed Wanda to open up to her so she could find out what she was capable of. Tricked witches into thinking the Witches’ road was real, just so she could aggravate them and make them blast her to steal their magic)
- Immortality (Type 7: Became a ghost after dying, being able to communicate with Billy and interact with her brooch)
Agatha should have 8-C with magic since she can knock down Wanda with her blasts and injure her with telekinesis (Wanda could also withstand attacks from Proxima Midnight)
Idk if these also need to be properly calculated to be used, but her physical durability should be 9-B from taking wind blasts from Rio Vidal (whose wind attacks can bust doors) and breaking her wooden cabinet after Rio blasted her.
Her strength should also be 9-B from being able to physically harm Rio, and Rio could also do the same to her. Rio Vidal can withstand Wiccan’s telekinesis launching her at french doors, and his telekinesis could leave a large crack on the ground to eventually subconsciously destroying agatha’s basement (which was rewritten into a morgue), with the walls being made out of stainless steel.
Idk if these also need to be properly calculated to be used, but her physical durability should be 9-B from taking wind blasts from Rio Vidal (whose wind attacks can bust doors) and breaking her wooden cabinet after Rio blasted her.
Her strength should also be 9-B from being able to physically harm Rio, and Rio could also do the same to her. Rio Vidal can withstand Wiccan’s telekinesis launching her at french doors, and his telekinesis could leave a large crack on the ground to eventually subconsciously destroying agatha’s basement (which was rewritten into a morgue), with the walls being made out of stainless steel.
Then she should have “higher with Absorption” (for strength) and “at least Multi-Continent level, likely higher with absorption” (for durability)
- It is shown that Agatha becomes physically augmented from absorbing Wiccan’s chaos magic where she could break out of Rio Vidal’s wires and heal the cuts on her body while sucking his magic.
- She can also tank magic blasts while absorbing them, as shown when she could take a magic blast from her mom without absorbing it while she was taking the powers of the witches around her. Her absorption powers are also stated to require her being blasted by magic, as the absorption effects take place after doing so.
- After absorbing Wiccan’s magic she could also take a blast from rio vidal without absorbing it, however she was heavily injured from it, although Rio is more powerful than her so it makes sense she would get beaten.
- A witch’s magic seems to be connected to their life force as shown when Wanda was rapidly getting weaker from Agatha absorbing her spells, so it supports agatha growing stronger from other witches’ magic, basically taking their life force too.
Wiccan
Making his justifications for his ‘likely at least High 6-A’ rating more detailed:
Also his 9-B should be changed to at least 8-C, since Agatha was able to harm Wanda with her magic, and he should be stronger than Agatha since some of his magic was able to power-up Agatha to her fullest
New Abilities
- Soul Manipulation (With the guidance of Agatha Harkness, he was able to hold Tommy Maximoff’s soul and transfer him into the body of a dying boy. Rio Vidal even states that Billy is capable of giving a second life to his brother the same way he stole and reanimated William Kaplan’s life)
- Law Manipulation (Magically established the rules of the Witches’ Road and each trial residing in them, as Wiccan was subconsciously influencing everything in the reality, which included prohibiting people from stepping off the road, not letting them avoid their trial, forcing the Witches back down to the road as they were “not allowed” to leave, causing the witches to enter the Green Witch trial through Wiccan defying the road, and allowing witches to leave the road once they gotten what they need. Due to him possessing the dead body of William Kaplan and bringing it back to life, he essentially stole his life, disrupting the Sacred Balance of Life and Death that Rio Vidal maintains, with his actions being considered a violation to Rio, who is also the natural order of all things, which she was unable to take Wiccan unless he surrendered himself)
- Transmutation (Turned the entrance to the Witches’ Road into a memorial for the witches that died in the trials. Transmutation is also considered by Agatha to be one of the fundamental basics of Witchcraft)
- Another justification for Reality Warping (Wished for Lilia Calderu to be there with him and Agatha in the Divination Trial, which as a result of his wish they appeared at the start of the trial, seemingly by magic, specifically from Billy)
Clean Ups
- Remove Immortality Type 4 via this explanation:
Agatha was just talking about how if Death tried to kill Wiccan on her own, he’d just possess another body again, which is essentially him gaining another life. this wouldn’t qualify for resurrection or reincarnation if he’s just possessing other bodies
- A justification for his superhuman stamina is being comparable to the Scarlet Witch, which is unnecessary and I think should be removed since the other parts are enough. He also lasted a bit longer than Wanda when he was giving plenty of his magic away
Rio Vidal
Major Removals and Changes
current justification:
reworded:
Abstract Existence (Type 2 [Concept {Type 2: Life & Death}]; Rio Vidal is the personification of life and death in constant flow, existing at the beginning of time with Eternity, the embodiment of time, as well as predating life itself, which began in the universe. Death is the Original Green Witch, making her the first wielder and possible creator of Earth Magic, which is about the cycle of all living things, as she represents the cycle of life. Magic is also the life and spiritual essence of witches, as witches become physically weak when losing it, can replenish their life when they gain access to it, regenerate from cuts and wounds over their body, with magic even coming from their soul, which is the essence of who someone is. Rio Vidal is also present in the afterlife, which is a plane of untethered consciousness. She is considered to be an essential force in the universe, a universal constant, and the natural order of all living things, as she oversees the sacred balance of life and death itself, as well as having the power to manipulate reality, time, and space)
By extension, Rio Vidal would have:
reworded:
Abstract Existence (Type 2 [Concept {Type 2: Life & Death}]; Rio Vidal is the personification of life and death in constant flow, existing at the beginning of time with Eternity, the embodiment of time, as well as predating life itself, which began in the universe. Death is the Original Green Witch, making her the first wielder and possible creator of Earth Magic, which is about the cycle of all living things, as she represents the cycle of life. Magic is also the life and spiritual essence of witches, as witches become physically weak when losing it, can replenish their life when they gain access to it, regenerate from cuts and wounds over their body, with magic even coming from their soul, which is the essence of who someone is. Rio Vidal is also present in the afterlife, which is a plane of untethered consciousness. She is considered to be an essential force in the universe, a universal constant, and the natural order of all living things, as she oversees the sacred balance of life and death itself, as well as having the power to manipulate reality, time, and space)
By extension, Rio Vidal would have:
- Some degree of Regeneration (edit: low, possibly low-mid regen): From her nature as a witch being able to restore their life & regenerate from severe cuts, since Agatha could heal from a thousand cuts all over her body and an injury in her achilles when she got her magic back. She can also snap her bones and neck in place after contorting her entire body but not sure if that works for anything.
- Immortality Type 8?: She personifies life and death, can regenerate from her essence, & she also says she can’t be killed
- Law Manipulation or Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2): Being an essential force in the universe, being a universal constant, and the natural order of all living things, maintaining the sacred balance of life and death, can manipulate reality, space, and time with her powers (which is earth magic/her essence)
- Remove Multilocation, the justification for this is she took Alice Wu-Gulliver to the afterlife while appearing in front of Lilia at the same time, but the scene where she took Alice happened shortly before Lilia Calderu and Jennifer Kale fell under the ground in the scene so we don’t know if Death was still in the afterlife while appearing in front of Lilia, so then this could just be due to teleportation or Death choosing to physically manifest in front of Lilia after being in the afterlife
- Incorporeality also needs to be removed because the explanation doesn’t explain it well.
- Her avatar creation is from being able to take the form of a woman, however that is just blatantly shapeshifting, so it should be changed.
Her Infinite Stamina should probably be removed or be a “likely” thing because I don’t know if being a cosmic entity is enough for it. These should also be added to her Superhuman Stamina tho
- It was implied that Rio was going to keep fighting Agatha and Wiccan for their souls until one of them gave themselves up. she was able to get back up after being blasted by billy and still pursue them both, & the Artbook of the series says that she was not going to stop at nothing.
- Also she was going to continue to keep pursuing Agatha until she eventually dies - Agatha told her that when she dies for a very long time, she wouldn’t want to see her again.
- Considering she’s been there since the beginning of time, she has been likely doing her job for that time as well.
The Darkhold
High 3-A Removal
it was accepted in this thread that wanda wouldn’t have Low 2-C from destroying the darkhold because she redirected its dark magic into its own source and cut off the links of every copy to the source of their powers instead of like using the darkhold’s actual power to directly destroy all of them at once, so the darkhold, which is currently High 3-A bc of wanda using its magic to destroy infinite copies of itself, should be removed
Removal of Justifications
These justifications should also be removed:
okay so this shouldn’t be used as an explanation for its ap or whatever bc its only WoG, and it being the greatest power of evil is vague bc it could just be referring to how its spells r just very demonic (it comes from the first demon in the universe/chthon), is so tempting that like it can corrupt people including sorcerers like dr strange and wanda who have resisted mind control before
this shouldn’t also be used as an ap justification because the darkhold being a threat to the multiverse could be due to its dreamwalking spells that like cause incursions which r apparently becoming the main problem in the mcu multiverse stuff & like how people can just interact with other universes magically so this statement is vague too
Dormammu
More Resistances & Abilities
- Dormammu should have his resistance to Death’s abilities back
- According to the MCU Iconic Artifacts Guidebook, Dormammu, who exists in a timeless void, is the path to gaining immortality and defeating the “slavery of time”, and death itself.
- Death has the ability to grant people more time to live, and in special cases, have control over the circumstances of somebody’s demise, like delaying Nicholas Scratch’s death
- So it should look like: Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) and/or Law Manipulation (if either or both of these are accepted), Magic, Life Manipulation, Death Manipulation, Corrosion Inducement, Soul Manipulation, Reality Warping, Time Manipulation, and Space Manipulation (Dormammu is the path to gaining immortality and defeating the “slavery” of time, and thus death itself. Immortals are immune to Death’s magical abilities, which encompass the cycle of all living things. Death can free the soul of a living being, can decompose matter into plant life, with Death also personifying the cycles of life and death, being an essential force in the universe, a universal constant, and the natural order of all things, capable of manipulating reality, time, and space, as well as governing the sacred balance of life and death itself)
- Limited Resistance to Information Analysis (His magic should be similar to Mephisto’s in nature as they both reside in dimensions outside of Earth that produce natural magic, where Riri William’s A.I, N.A.T.A.L.I.E, was unable to analyze the energy coming from the Hood’s cloak, as well as Riri Williams being unable to determine the source of its energies via referencing its heat signatures with any energy source she was aware of. Zelma Stanton and her mother identified it as Natural Magic, which is magic originating from other dimensions, and Dormammu was suspected as one of the entities possibly connected to the magic of the cloak)
- Unholy Manipulation (Dormammu’s magic should be similar in nature to Mephisto’s due to both of them residing in dimensions outside of Earth where natural magic exists, as he was suspected to be one of the entities responsible for the dark natural magic behind the Hood’s cloak, which its fabric was considered dark by Zelma and that it was from one of the darkest dimensions known and probably unknown. Channeling power from Dormammu can cause one to be tethered to the Dark Dimension, causing purple scars all over their body and making them see weird visions)
- Technology Manipulation and Data Manipulation (The nature of his magic should be similar to that of Mephisto’s, as he was determined to be likely connected to the natural magic radiating from the Hood’s cloak, with natural magic being energy originating from other dimensions, which caused Ironheart’s A.I, N.A.T.A.L.I.E, to glitch and malfunction. Magical energy itself from the Dark Dimension caused N.A.T.A.L.I.E to be erased as a result of Zelma Stanton infusing her magic into Ironheart’s suit)
Scarlet Witch
Multiverse of Madness
- limited supernatural willpower and resistance to corruption (type 2) (With the comfort and assurance from her 838-counterpart, she broke free of the Darkhold’s influence, which it’s dangerous magic had twisted her desperation and grief into evil, can corrupt everything and everyone that it touches, as well as corrode the souls of those who partake its knowledge)
Agree: Imaginym, Godernet, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
Neutral:
Disagree:
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