Calc Review of Equinoctial Vermilion Eyes Perception Speed

[Epyriel]

Recently completed this calculation which calculates the perception speed of a given ability that makes their movements appear as slow as a snail.

To lowball this to avoid calc stacking, I used an explicit speed statement for a far far far slower character to use as the real speed for the calculation.

However this was recently rejected on the basis that even explicit speed statements can constitute calc stacking.

Yet I have learned that this subject was already debated in a calc group thread a while ago, and DMUA’s position that explicit speed statements can constitute calc stacking appeared to be soundly rejected. This was similarly upheld in a more recent thread on the same subject wondering why the results of that earlier thread hadn’t been added to the calc stacking page.

So I was wondering, could this rejection be overturned, and can the results of the first thread on this subject please be added to the calc stacking page to avoid these issues in the future?

 

[Floxy178]

For this method(last equation) shouldn't Kanao have 1/343 second perception time normally?

 

[KLOL506]

In this case I think the calc should be usable if the demon isn't holding back.

 

[Epyriel]

For this method(last equation) shouldn't Kanao have 1/343 second perception time normally?

Sure if you want to calculate it as a perception timeframe rather than a perceived speed, it is the same thing just written differently.

 

[Epyriel]

In this case I think the calc should be usable if the demon isn't holding back.

The Demon isn’t holding back in this instance, although he is nerfed due to poison (should be astronomically above Kyogai anyways though). Although since she is also seeing herself and Inosuke in slow motion it also works to just say IC Inosuke >>> Kyogai or IC Kanao >>> Kyogai as prominent Tsuguko (and frankly at this point Hahsira level) demon slayers who have mastered Total Concentration Breathing: Constant and thus should far far exceed any Non-Kizuki demon like Kyogai, as they certainly aren’t holding back nor are nerfed in anyway.

 

[Floxy178]

Sure if you want to calculate it as a perception timeframe rather than a perceived speed, it is the same thing just written differently.

Yeah but that's considered calc stacking no?

 

[Epyriel]

Yeah but that's considered calc stacking no?

?

Uh, how? It is literally just a different way to write the same thing. Not sure what this has to do with calc stacking.

 

[Floxy178]

?

Uh, how? It is literally just a different way to write the same thing.

Taking Kanao's perception time as supersonic isn't allowed if you're using it for a calc. Idk if anything has changed so far. You should probably use 0.2 or 0.13 sec thing istead if you don't have any stated perception timeframe(which I doubt tbh).

 

[Epyriel]

Taking Kanao's perception time as supersonic isn't allowed if you're using it for a calc. Idk if anything has changed so far. You should probably use 0.2 or 0.13 sec thing istead if you don't have any stated perception timeframe(which I doubt tbh).

Ok that is a completely different issue, but to answer it no - that is the point of this thread.

I took it from an explicit speed statement, not a separate calculation.

 

[KLOL506]

Basically for slow mo calcs you don't have to use perception time, there is a better formula that we use.

True speed: (Speed of Projectile / Perceived Speed) * Character's Apparent speed (The speed we see the character dodging move at)

Speed of Projectile: Speed of Sound, 343 m/s

Perceived speed: Snail Speed, 0.00275 m/s

Character's apparent speed: Well this one you have to figure out on your own, or calculate using anime scenes (Don't worry, it's valid), but if we can't, we just assume anything from 6-7 m/s based on average human punching speed, or 12-15 m/s for fastest runners alive or peak punching speed.

And yeah, it straight up can't be calc stacking here.

 

[KLOL506]

Also why does the blog post have the comments disabled.

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah but that's considered calc stacking no?

There's no need to use perception timeframes here when the slow-mo formula literally exists.

 

[Floxy178]

I took it from an explicit speed statement, not a separate calculation.

Getting perception speed itself considered a calculation(again, if nothing changed from back then). Does your statement say that Kanao has 1/343 sec perception time?

That's the reason why we don't use 3.336 nanosecond timeframe for perception blitzing sol characters.

Basically for slow mo calcs you don't have to use perception time, there is a better formula that we use.

True speed: (Speed of Projectile / Perceived Speed) * Character's Apparent speed (The speed we see the character dodging move at)

Don't everyone seem in slow mo in the feat?

 

[Epyriel]

Also why does the blog post have the comments disabled.

Uh, it doesn’t as far as I’m aware? Do I need to change some setting?

 

[KLOL506]

Don't everyone seem in slow mo in the feat?

Not the real problem. We just need to find out if Kanao can move about at the same pace as a normal human in this dilated timeframe. Hell, even body movements can get you a lot out of here.

 

[KLOL506]

Uh, it doesn’t as far as I’m aware? Do I need to change some setting?

Yeah for some reason I can't comment on your blog. I can comment on other blogs.

 

[Floxy178]

Not the real problem. We just need to find out if Kanao can move about at the same pace as a normal human in this dilated timeframe. Hell, even body movements can get you a lot out of here.

Well in blog it's said that she percieves herself at snail speed too.

 

[Epyriel]

Not the real problem. We just need to find out if Kanao can move about at the same pace as a normal human in this dilated timeframe. Hell, even body movements can get you a lot out of here.

I mean the issue is that everyone to her vision is moving in slow motion (the ability gives her a gigantic boost to perception speed alone).

Is the method I used good to calculate the perception speed alone?

 

[KLOL506]

I mean the issue is that everyone to her vision is moving in slow motion (the ability gives her a gigantic boost to perception speed alone).

Is the method I used good to calculate the perception speed alone?

There's no such thing as perception speed, only perception timeframes (No distance component, no speed). Not sure if there's a proper formula for that other than what you can get from the Perception Timeframes table. See which one fits this feat best.

 

[Epyriel]

There's no such thing as perception speed, only perception timeframes (No distance component, no speed). Not sure if there's a proper formula for that other than what you can get from the Perception Timeframes table. See which one fits this feat best.

Alright, I will translate this into timeframes (it is the same tier, just written differently).

 

[Epyriel]

There's no such thing as perception speed, only perception timeframes (No distance component, no speed). Not sure if there's a proper formula for that other than what you can get from the Perception Timeframes table. See which one fits this feat best.

Alright, I will translate this into timeframes (it is the same tier, just written differently).

Done

Yeah for some reason I can't comment on your blog. I can comment on other blogs.

Can you try to comment through this link?

Demon Slayer - Equinoctial Vermilion Eyes Perception Speed

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[KLOL506]

Will check in with DT first.

@DontTalkDT This good or nah?

 

[Epyriel]

Bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

When you lowball a calculation like this hiding the outlier becomes a concern. I.e. if you didn't lowball the calculation would you end up with a value that would be considered an outlier for the verse and discarded? If yes, the feat would be discarded.

If we go strictly by Agnaa's thread's votes, then there is also the issue that several scaling steps are disqualifying. Which ironically means that the people she sees in slow motion might not work as reference, as they scale too many steps above Kyogai (this is an assumptions, I don't know the verse).

Lastly, there is the question Agnaa didn't ask, which is what to do if characters don't consistently go top speed. I.e. you have a supersonic fighter, but by looking at events you know they on several occassions don't go supersonic in fights. That could be a consideration as well. Again, no idea if that is an issue in the verse.



Edit: Actually, looking at the calculation itself, what's the idea between this step: (1/343)s / 124727 ?
I'm asking because the following question was answered with "No" in Agnaa's thread.

Is it okay to convert a stated timeframe to an implied speed, or a stated speed to an implied timeframe, for use in another calculation?

 

[Epyriel]

When you lowball a calculation like this hiding the outlier becomes a concern. I.e. if you didn't lowball the calculation would you end up with a value that would be considered an outlier for the verse and discarded? If yes, the feat would be discarded.

The ability in question only necessarily scales to the perception speed of one character who always sees everyone in slow motion while using it, so there aren’t really any anti-feats against it even if the result was ten times higher so I wouldn’t say this applies.

If we go strictly by Agnaa's thread's votes, then there is also the issue that several scaling steps are disqualifying. Which ironically means that the people she sees in slow motion might not work as reference, as they scale too many steps above Kyogai (this is an assumptions, I don't know the verse).

The argument here is that any Tsuguko and any master of Total Concentration Breathing: Constant should be all you need to say they are astronomically above any Non-Kizuki like Kyogai (which is enough to say Kanao > Kyogai directly).

Lastly, there is the question Agnaa didn't ask, which is what to do if characters don't consistently go top speed. I.e. you have a supersonic fighter, but by looking at events you know they on several occassions don't go supersonic in fights. That could be a consideration as well. Again, no idea if that is an issue in the verse.

Kanao and Inosuke were bloodlusted at this point and spamming their breathing techniques so they were definitely going top speed.

Edit: Actually, looking at the calculation itself, what's the idea between this step: (1/343)s / 124727 ?
I'm asking because the following question was answered with "No" in Agnaa's thread.

That is attempting to quantify her perception window directly off of actions that would qualify as minimum SOS.

My assumption for that rule from Agnaa’s thread was that you couldn't use (for example) the stated speed of a flying arrow (stated in a prior scene) passing by in a new scene as a timeframe for a completely different feat happening on screen, instead of something like just calculating the perception speed of viewing that same arrow directly going at a certain apparent speed.

Essentially I am just using the speed ratio of SOS -> Snail Speed to find the factor by which her perception timeframe would be accordingly scaled, rather than using the speed to find a timeframe for an actual derivative calculation.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The ability in question only necessarily scales to the perception speed of one character who always sees everyone in slow motion while using it, so there aren’t really any anti-feats against it even if the result was ten times higher so I wouldn’t say this applies.

Ok. I would bring it up in the CRT where you add it to let verse supporters weigh in. I have no way to really verify that.

The argument here is that any Tsuguko and any master of Total Concentration Breathing: Constant should be all you need to say they are astronomically above any Non-Kizuki like Kyogai (which is enough to say Kanao > Kyogai directly).

As someone who doesn't know the series at all, I don't understand why being a master of that would automatically give that scaling.

Kanao and Inosuke were bloodlusted at this point and spamming their breathing techniques so they were definitely going top speed.

Can you show evidence for that? (although I suppose that falls under the things that could also be evaluated by verse supporters in the CRT)

That is attempting to quantify her perception window directly off of actions that would qualify as minimum SOS.

My assumption for that rule from Agnaa’s thread was that you couldn't use (for example) the stated speed of a flying arrow (stated in a prior scene) passing by in a new scene as a timeframe for a completely different feat happening on screen, instead of something like just calculating the perception speed of viewing that same arrow directly going at a certain apparent speed.

Essentially I am just using the speed ratio of SOS -> Snail Speed to find the factor by which her perception timeframe would be accordingly scaled, rather than using the speed to find a timeframe for an actual derivative calculation.

What the question is about (in my understanding) is that you can't convert a speed value (e.g. supersonic combat speed) to a perception time value (e.g. supersonic perception time) or vice versa. The character would need an actual perception time feat.
Anyway, as the reactions page says:

Do not randomly assume a 1 meter distance for each timeframe and use that speed for the reaction speed. Other way around, perception time is just a timeframe and by that not proportional to a speed value alone. Do not assume that a character with a certain speed will have a perception time of 1 meter divided by that speed.

Basically, I don't get where the "(1/343)s" factor comes from and why the ratio would apply to it.

 

[MrTayman616]

What the question is about (in my understanding) is that you can't convert a speed value (e.g. supersonic combat speed) to a perception time value (e.g. supersonic perception time) or vice versa. The character would need an actual perception time feat.
Anyway, as the reactions page says:

So using a stated reaction/perception speed is fine if it is a blitz feat?

 

[Epyriel]

As someone who doesn't know the series at all, I don't understand why being a master of that would automatically give that scaling.

Essentially Tsuguko are Hashira in training who once they have mastered their forms and Total Concentration Breathing: Constant are expected to kill a Kizuki to prove themselves, with the 12 Kizuki being the strongest of Muzan’s servants and far above all other demons.

Kyogai just so happens to be an ex-Kizuki because he fell short of that standard, so the fact a Tsuguko like Kanao is expected to kill lower moon level demons should easily place her as far above a reject from the lowest possible rank of the Kizuki (Lower Moon 6).

Can you show evidence for that? (although I suppose that falls under the things that could also be evaluated by verse supporters in the CRT)

Sure, this part is easy to prove. Kanao and Inosuke are both bloodlusted after Doma killed both Shinobu (Kanao’s sister/mentor and Inosuke’s mentor) and Inosuke’s mother (and proceeded to mock them over this). They explicitly vent their anger and unleash their breathing techniques to do their best to kill him (eventually succeeding) to make sure Shinobu’s sacrifice is not in vain.

What the question is about (in my understanding) is that you can't convert a speed value (e.g. supersonic combat speed) to a perception time value (e.g. supersonic perception time) or vice versa. The character would need an actual perception time feat.
Anyway, as the reactions page says:

Basically, I don't get where the "(1/343)s" factor comes from and why the ratio would apply to it.

This seems a really weird standard since the 1m/speed timeframe is exactly how the perception timeframe table was constructed. Like the transonic perception timeframe is literally 0.0032s - 0.00265s, which is just 1m/Mach 0.9 - 1m/Mach1.1, literally 1m divided by the transonic speed ends. The middle of that tier is 0.002925s which is just (1/343)s. I just took transonic perception time and upscaled it by the relavant speed ratio (as previously she could see everyone's attacks normally, but after activating the ability they appeared as slow as snails, indicating her perception time was upscaled by the ratio of the two speeds).

Since demon slayers can often monologue mid-battle while attacking, their perception time is obviously much higher than movements, so this would be another lowball (as they would be able to see/react to their own movements in far less time than it takes them to move a meter, so using the perception time formula would yield a far higher result).

If this weird standard is a sticking point, I can just redo the calculation using the perception time formula based on Kanao’s reactions to her own movement when the anime comes out and apply the ratio to that instead and it will just give a much higher result.

Anyways, the main issue is just whether or not the conclusion to Agnaa’s thread is actually an valid set of standards. If so can it please be added to the actual calc stacking pages so calcs can stop being rejected on that basis alone?

 

[Epyriel]

What the question is about (in my understanding) is that you can't convert a speed value (e.g. supersonic combat speed) to a perception time value (e.g. supersonic perception time) or vice versa. The character would need an actual perception time feat.
Anyway, as the reactions page says:

Basically, I don't get where the "(1/343)s" factor comes from and why the ratio would apply to it.

I have updated it to just reflect just an upscale from the peak human perception speed.

So basically just as a snail seems frozen from an IRL human’s perspective, the minimum transonic motions of Doma, Inosuke, and herself seem frozen to Kanao, so having taken the speed ratio of the SOS and snaill speed, Kanao’s perception would be that same factor faster than an IRL human’s.

This good?

 

[NikHelton]

Не в этом проблема. Нам просто нужно выяснить, сможет ли Канао двигаться с той же скоростью, что и обычный человек, в столь отдалённом временном промежутке. Чёрт возьми, даже движения тела могут помочь вам выбраться отсюда.

Don't we need a demonstration of the difference in speed to take this statement at face value? Because even if we imagine that she was only moving at 1 m/sec in her perception, that makes her 363 times faster, which is quite a lot. A difference of 5-10 times is enough for the effect of slow motion

 

[KLOL506]

Don't we need a demonstration of the difference in speed to take this statement at face value? Because even if we imagine that she was only moving at 1 m/sec in her perception, that makes her 363 times faster, which is quite a lot. A difference of 5-10 times is enough for the effect of slow motion.

Without further proof we can't simply slap on a multiplier willy-nilly.

 

[NikHelton]

Without further proof we can't simply slap on a multiplier willy-nilly.

In that case, before we accept this thread, we should see proof that Kanao actually sharpened her perception that much. It could have been just a metaphor, and her reaction sharpened only a few times

@Epyriel

 

[Epyriel]

In that case, before we accept this thread, we should see proof that Kanao actually sharpened her perception that much. It could have been just a metaphor, and her reaction sharpened only a few times

@Epyriel

I’m not sure what else you are asking for.

Every manga panel treats it like everything is still for her and it is explicitly stated that everything is moving at snail speed, and even abilities less focused on pure perception speed like TW have similar statements about frozen opponents, and even basic water breathing techniques have been granted time-frozen shots. Everything implies a still shot and nothing even implies otherwise, and there is no other source to look at beyond that.

 

[NikHelton]

I’m not sure what else you are asking for.

Every manga panel treats it like everything is still for her and it is explicitly stated that everything is moving at snail speed, and even abilities less focused on pure perception speed like TW have similar statements about frozen opponents, and even basic water breathing techniques have been granted time-frozen shots. Everything implies a still shot and nothing even implies otherwise, and there is no other source to look at beyond that.

Can you just provide the feat itself and the pages here so we can assess the extent of the slowdown?

 

[Epyriel]

Can you just provide the feat itself and the pages here so we can assess the extent of the slowdown?

I have the links to it in the calc. But how are you going to do that from still frames?

 

[NikHelton]

Excuse me, but I'm still sure that this is a metaphor.

First, you talk about the speed of sound for Doma, but the speed of a snail acts relative to the Bodhisattva, which does not scale at all to Doma. Moreover, Doma at that moment was literally lying on the ground, falling apart into pieces, and Kanao noted that this technique was performed roughly and carelessly, because it was a desperate attempt to save itself. Appealing to the speed of sound already seems unreliable, but this is not the main problem.

Second, if we talk about statements, Kanao's words do not sound like the statue was motionless in her perception. She literally says "dull and slow", which is not even close to "it is motionless and frozen".

Third, pay attention to how it is depicted. When Kanao activated the ability, the movements of the Bodhisattva became smoother and sluggish. Note that her hand moves as if frame by frame, in 3 images. This visual demonstration of slow motion is not even close to 100 times, let alone 363 or your thousands. Moreover, Doma even managed to wave his fan while Kanao was trying to chop his head off, which suggests that their speed difference at that point is not as dramatic as the calculation suggests.

 

[NikHelton]

Without further proof we can't simply slap on a multiplier willy-nilly.

Excuse me, but I'm still sure that this is a metaphor.

First, you talk about the speed of sound for Doma, but the speed of a snail acts relative to the Bodhisattva, which does not scale at all to Doma. Moreover, Doma at that moment was literally lying on the ground, falling apart into pieces, and Kanao noted that this technique was performed roughly and carelessly, because it was a desperate attempt to save itself. Appealing to the speed of sound already seems unreliable, but this is not the main problem.

Second, if we talk about statements, Kanao's words do not sound like the statue was motionless in her perception. She literally says "dull and slow", which is not even close to "it is motionless and frozen".

Third, pay attention to how it is depicted. When Kanao activated the ability, the movements of the Bodhisattva became smoother and sluggish. Note that her hand moves as if frame by frame, in 3 images. This visual demonstration of slow motion is not even close to 100 times, let alone 363 or your thousands. Moreover, Doma even managed to wave his fan while Kanao was trying to chop his head off, which suggests that their speed difference at that point is not as dramatic as the calculation suggests.

KLOL506, what are you think about this?

 

[Epyriel]

Excuse me, but I'm still sure that this is a metaphor.

First, you talk about the speed of sound for Doma, but the speed of a snail acts relative to the Bodhisattva, which does not scale at all to Doma. Moreover, Doma at that moment was literally lying on the ground, falling apart into pieces, and Kanao noted that this technique was performed roughly and carelessly, because it was a desperate attempt to save itself. Appealing to the speed of sound already seems unreliable, but this is not the main problem.

She was seeing everyone in slow motion (herself, Inosuke, and poisoned Doma, all whom are roughly relative to each other at this point) while the point of reference is Kyogai’s attack speed, not even a Lower Moon, but a Lower Moon reject (someone who was slower than even a crippled S1 Tanjiro).

Kanao and Inosuke are at least low-end Hashira level here and even the attack speed a poisoned UM2 construct should be massively, massively above him.

Second, if we talk about statements, Kanao's words do not sound like the statue was motionless in her perception. She literally says "dull and slow", which is not even close to "it is motionless and frozen".

Being dull and slow is hardly inaccurate. If you see a snail on the side of the road, that is something you could easily say is slow and dull.

Third, pay attention to how it is depicted. When Kanao activated the ability, the movements of the Bodhisattva became smoother and sluggish. Note that her hand moves as if frame by frame, in 3 images. This visual demonstration of slow motion is not even close to 100 times, let alone 363 or your thousands.

You left out the very next panel, in which the Bodhisattva’s hand stops completely with a ‘kshing’, as Equinoctial Vermillion Eye kicks in completely.

Moreover, Doma even managed to wave his fan while Kanao was trying to chop his head off, which suggests that their speed difference at that point is not as dramatic as the calculation suggests.

Kanao didn’t get faster, it is strictly a perception speed boost. So neutral-perspective panels of Doma moving relative to her doesn’t prove anything.

 

[KLOL506]

I have no horse in this race. I will go by what DontTalkDT deems best.

 

[NikHelton]

Being dull and slow is hardly inaccurate. If you see a snail on the side of the road, that is something you could easily say is slow and dull.

If you see a snail on the road you won't call it slow and dull. From your perspective it will be motionless. That's a huge difference.

You left out the very next panel, in which the Bodhisattva’s hand stops completely with a ‘kshing’, as Equinoctial Vermillion Eye kicks in completely.

The link is broken, but that sound literally means nothing. Kanao simply dodged the blow and was then frozen by the Bodhisattva. If the statue had been frozen hundreds and thousands of times for her, she would have simply not fallen for that attack and done something.

Kanao didn’t get faster, it is strictly a perception speed boost. So neutral-perspective panels of Doma moving relative to her doesn’t prove anything.

This is just evidence that she did nothing during this time, although with such a difference in perception she had such an opportunity.