Light fix to Demon Slayer calcs

[Syncornize]

Hi, I wanted to bring up some things that I think should be noted

• in this calc, any attempt to remove the contradiction is bound to fail.
  
  - Here the demon, by moving backward, dodges Tanjiro’s two slashes; in the calc the demon’s movement speed is about 280 m/s slower.
  
  - Tanjiro considers something "fast" even when it’s 23 times slower, and that’s why he hits the arm instead of the neck, not because of a lack of accuracy. In this scene he was saved by Nezuko while he remained practically motionless, whereas the demon was moving. With this kind of speed gap, missing the target due to lack of skill is still ambiguous, since he had enough speed to act calmly. That would only make sense in rushed circumstances. I understand that we’re not talking about differences in the triple digit range, but while the demon moves 10 cm, he should be covering almost 1 meter... the gap is still too large.
  
  EDIT
  - In the profile, they are considered relative, but the calculation concludes that there is a gap between them. Tanjiro used his base speed for the feat. Following the anime, the demon dodges without any problem. “The calc. scene in the anime is completely different. Tanjiro dodges the attack in advance.
  
  EDIT thx to @Zefra3011
• For this

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• Here, the katana’s speed is incorrectly extrapolated from the context. The speed used is that of a BB pellet/bullet, not of the sword slash. The context says that the swordsman stopped the bullet, which was moving at that speed. The katana would be twice as fast as a regular sword… (Moreover, using the maximum speed of a sword would still be wrong, because that speed is reached only at the point where it hits its maximum peak, which in this case it hasn’t reached)
  
  - Doma calls Inosuke’s movements "quick" and he doesn’t notice them. According to the calc, the two swordsmen being relative to him should have sword movements 39 times slower than Doma, yet they are still able to be hit him afterward.
  
  - Scenes like the one used in the calc appear multiple times during the fight, so I think they shouldn’t be taken into account; there’s even a rule for this. The gap shown between the three of them is not that large, or at least it is not consistently so.

• Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters at extreme proximity, as this is primarily a trope used to exaggerate a narrow miss rather than a literal representation of overwhelming speed. Taking it at face value is often inconsistent with the battle in which the feat occurs, where the opponents are presented as equals, but the calculation results in them being considered several times faster

  
  EDIT thx to @Zefra3011
  - for this and this
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• Here, the premise is that Yoriichi was caught off guard by something 363 times slower than him , which he would technically perceive as almost motionless, and on top of that he possesses limited precognition that allows him to see things in slow motion. Being taken by surprise under these conditions, and allowing those fragments to travel the distance shown in the panel, is impossible.
  
  - The image does not seem to suggest an omnidirectional explosion (as assumed), but rather an explosion directed toward Yoriichi. An explosion isn't necessarily omnidirectional.
  
  - Based on the fact that Yoriichi considers Muzan’s division to possess incredible strength, it's not impossible to assume that it is beyond Yoriichi’s capabilities since it caught him off guard. The roughly 300 uncut pieces are the ones Yoriichi was unable to handle during his action.
  
  EDIT
  -The scene shows that while Muzan’s head has exploded, the rest of his body is still present. His separation is therefore gradual or in parts, not all at once. Considering that this happens at SOS, the feat could be performed even at lower speeds
  
  - Using Yoriichi's attack range is bad. It only works if he was exactly where Muzan was or didn't turn around to cut behind himself, which would, in a sense, increase his range, since if a piece would travel from Muzan to Yoriichi, let's say 1 meter, and after it could travel even more behind Yoriichi for 1,53 m based on the calc, for a total of 2,53 meters.
  
  - The omnidirectionality of the explosion is straight up debunked by the panel itself; the distance they are at would barely allow Yoriichi to extend the katana to reach Muzan, let alone cutting something moving behind him, and no pieces are actually seen going behind anyway, but since it's being argued...
  
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  EDIT:
  I forgot to mention this.
  
  
• In this calc the proportions aren't correct and consistent with those mentioned by the OP. The reference points used to determine the distances appear to be the same, but the distance traveled by Tanjiro and the height of the screen end up being excessively large. (I know I used the width; I used it because it's the longest part of the image, and the pixels don’t match the OP’s.)
  
  - The calc in question assumes that the lightning started from the distance measured at screen height, when it could very easily be farther away; there’s no distance that can be verified in any measurable way.
  
  - Following the scene, we can see that Tanjiro moves before the lightning comes down and appears on screen. While the lightning covers several meters, Tanjiro appears to remain still rather than in motion

 

[Robo432343]

Yeah agree with subsonic

 

[Arkenis]

Nice.

 

[NikHelton]

I agree with everything except Yoriichi. He cut over 1,000 pieces, considering they flew in all directions. If Muzan's flesh fragments had been moving at Yoriichi's relative speed, he wouldn't have been able to cut that many.
I understand your logic that with such a difference in speed, he should have caught up with them all, but that's just a plot device.

 

[Epyriel]

• in this calc, any attempt to remove the contradiction is bound to fail.
  
  - Here the demon, by moving backward, dodges Tanjiro’s two slashes; in the calc the demon’s movement speed is about 280 m/s slower.
  
  - Tanjiro considers something "fast" even when it’s 23 times slower, and that’s why he hits the arm instead of the neck, not because of a lack of accuracy. In this scene he was saved by Nezuko while he remained practically motionless, whereas the demon was moving. With this kind of speed gap, missing the target due to lack of skill is still ambiguous, since he had enough speed to act calmly. That would only make sense in rushed circumstances. I understand that we’re not talking about differences in the triple digit range, but while the demon moves 10 cm, he should be covering almost 1 meter... the gap is still too large.

Every time Tanjiro used a breathing technique in that fight he blitzed the demon.

Also what Tanjiro calls quick is the demon’s speed at disappearing into the ground, not their attack speed which are not the same thing. And when Nezuko kicks him he doesn’t “remain motionless” we see him in the prior panel preparing an attack.

It should also be noted that this is S1 Tanjiro who has not yet unlocked Total Concentration Breathing: Constant, which means there is going to be massive disparities between his use of Breathing Techniques, his active use of Concentration Breathing, and his base form.

The panel you show of the demon dodging by moving slightly back while Tanjiro stays in place was in a case where Tanjiro was not using a Breathing Technique and the demon using his technique to sink into the ground.

• - Doma calls Inosuke’s movements "quick" and he doesn’t notice them. According to the calc, the two swordsmen being relative to him should have sword movements 39 times slower than Doma, yet they are still able to be hit him afterward.
  
  - Scenes like the one used in the calc appear multiple times during the fight, so I think they shouldn’t be taken into account; there’s even a rule for this. The gap shown between the three of them is not that large, or at least it is not consistently so.

Doma is clearly toying with Inosuke and Kanao here, being complimentary about Inosuke’s agility in being able to quickly grab Kanao sword while Doma was distracted hardly offsets Doma effortlessly perception blitzing the both of them whenever he wanted.

You can’t use a rule about refraining from calculating exaggerated last minute dodges between relative opponents to discount the premise of calculating a feat between a much slower opponent and a much faster toying opponent. It is just a straight up depiction of a massive disparity in speed that is emphasized in the very next set of panels by Doma literally taking the sword out from Kanao’s hands and crossing the entire room before she can react.

• Here, the premise is that Yoriichi was caught off guard by something 363 times slower than him , which he would technically perceive as almost motionless, and on top of that he possesses limited precognition that allows him to see things in slow motion. Being taken by surprise under these conditions, and allowing those fragments to travel the distance shown in the panel, is impossible.
  
  - The image does not seem to suggest an omnidirectional explosion (as assumed), but rather an explosion directed toward Yoriichi. An explosion isn't necessarily omnidirectional.
  
  - Based on the fact that Yoriichi considers Muzan’s division to possess incredible strength, it's not impossible to assume that it is beyond Yoriichi’s capabilities since it caught him off guard. The roughly 300 uncut pieces are the ones Yoriichi was unable to handle during his action.

Can’t agree with this, Yoriichi is clearly shown to be massively superior in speed all throughout the fight, and being surprised by your opponent literally exploding in all directions is hardly an an anti-feat. As Nik mentioned, if Muzan was somehow still relative in speed, Yoriichi would have never been able to slash 1500 pieces of him traveling in all directions.

 

[Syncornize]

I agree with everything except Yoriichi. He cut over 1,000 pieces, considering they flew in all directions. If Muzan's flesh fragments had been moving at Yoriichi's relative speed, he wouldn't have been able to cut that many.
I understand your logic that with such a difference in speed, he should have caught up with them all, but that's just a plot device.

Can’t agree with this, Yoriichi is clearly shown to be massively superior in speed all throughout the fight, and being surprised by your opponent literally exploding in all directions is hardly an an anti-feat. As Nik mentioned, if Muzan was somehow still relative in speed, Yoriichi would have never been able to slash 1500 pieces of him traveling in all directions.

I disagree with the idea of multiple directions. The panel suggests only one direction, and not even a wide one; at most it expands as they move, and you can see Yoriichi striking at sword range. The idea of an omnidirectional explosion is not only an assumption but also something that isn’t shown in the panel at all.

Muzan isn’t really exploding,he’s splitting apart gradually. You can see that only his head is left. Even assuming that the sliced pieces are only ten with 1 slash is a bit ambiguous, considering about 300 pieces managed to escape. Following this, and taking into account that Yoriichi is extremely close to Muzan, even with a 30× speed gap, Yoriichi would still block all the pieces before they travel more than a meter, since Muzan’s division is progressive and must occur within the same time-frame of the speed being used.

Every time Tanjiro used a breathing technique in that fight he blitzed the demon.

Also what Tanjiro calls quick is the demon’s speed at disappearing into the ground, not their attack speed which are not the same thing. And when Nezuko kicks him he doesn’t “remain motionless” we see him in the prior panel preparing an attack.

It should also be noted that this is S1 Tanjiro who has not yet unlocked Total Concentration Breathing: Constant, which means there is going to be massive disparities between his use of Breathing Techniques, his active use of Concentration Breathing, and his base form.

Too bad that in the dodging feat he isn’t using Total Concentration Breathing. The calculated feat is his raw speed.

The panel you show of the demon dodging by moving slightly back while Tanjiro stays in place was in a case where Tanjiro was not using a Breathing Technique and the demon using his technique to sink into the ground.

In this case he is using Total Concentration, which according to what you claim should let him blitz, yet he didn’t move.

Doma is clearly toying with Inosuke and Kanao here, being complimentary about Inosuke’s agility in being able to quickly grab Kanao sword while Doma was distracted hardly offsets Doma effortlessly perception blitzing the both of them whenever he wanted.

You can’t use a rule about refraining from calculating exaggerated last minute dodges between relative opponents to discount the premise of calculating a feat between a much slower opponent and a much faster toying opponent. It is just a straight up depiction of a massive disparity in speed that is emphasized in the very next set of panels by Doma literally taking the sword out from Kanao’s hands and crossing the entire room before she can react.

Saying “clearly” is not a point or an argument.
Doma is caught off guard by a slash to the eyes, this should be clear as well. Characters blitz each other in close-range panels. Multiple times, Doma is surprised by his movements. The fight is not consistent.

It’s hard to be “distracted” and not notice characters who are 39 times slower than you. This is irrelevant. A character with such a speed gap wouldn’t be described as fast; given the situation, you would use terms like “agile,” “good timing,” “nimble,” or something along those lines. If a turtle tricks me, I wouldn’t call it fast. Doma himself says that he didn’t see him because of the speed; you can’t put different words in the characters’ mouths.

 

[Syncornize]

Yeah agree with subsonic

LOL

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

Hi, I wanted to bring up some things that I think should be noted

• in this calc, any attempt to remove the contradiction is bound to fail.
  
  - Here the demon, by moving backward, dodges Tanjiro’s two slashes; in the calc the demon’s movement speed is about 280 m/s slower.
  
  - Tanjiro considers something "fast" even when it’s 23 times slower, and that’s why he hits the arm instead of the neck, not because of a lack of accuracy. In this scene he was saved by Nezuko while he remained practically motionless, whereas the demon was moving. With this kind of speed gap, missing the target due to lack of skill is still ambiguous, since he had enough speed to act calmly. That would only make sense in rushed circumstances. I understand that we’re not talking about differences in the triple digit range, but while the demon moves 10 cm, he should be covering almost 1 meter... the gap is still too large.

i always considered the demon's own movement speed to be slower than his movement when coming out of his shadows, or well, his pocket dimension, and regarding his stationary status, iirc tanjiro stated he had to stay close to the civilians to protect them.

For the Nezuko bit, We already see tanjiro winding up an attack, it's just that Nezuko beat him to it.

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• Here, the katana’s speed is incorrectly extrapolated from the context. The speed used is that of a BB pellet/bullet, not of the sword slash. The context says that the swordsman stopped the bullet, which was moving at that speed. The katana would be twice as fast as a regular sword… (Moreover, using the maximum speed of a sword would still be wrong, because that speed is reached only at the point where it hits its maximum peak, which in this case it hasn’t reached)
  
  - Doma calls Inosuke’s movements "quick" and he doesn’t notice them. According to the calc, the two swordsmen being relative to him should have sword movements 39 times slower than Doma, yet they are still able to be hit him afterward.
  
  - Scenes like the one used in the calc appear multiple times during the fight, so I think they shouldn’t be taken into account; there’s even a rule for this. The gap shown between the three of them is not that large, or at least it is not consistently so.

here doma was explicitly toying with them, even statuing them by casually walking to inosuke mid sentence, taking his mask, walking a couple meters away before inosuke can even finish said sentence.

he also called them weaklings by the end of the fight, and unmarked Inosuke being somehow relative to upper 2 in speed hardly makes sens within the scaling chain of the verse anyways.

• 
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• Here, the premise is that Yoriichi was caught off guard by something 363 times slower than him , which he would technically perceive as almost motionless, and on top of that he possesses limited precognition that allows him to see things in slow motion. Being taken by surprise under these conditions, and allowing those fragments to travel the distance shown in the panel, is impossible.
  
  - The image does not seem to suggest an omnidirectional explosion (as assumed), but rather an explosion directed toward Yoriichi. An explosion isn't necessarily omnidirectional.
  
  - Based on the fact that Yoriichi considers Muzan’s division to possess incredible strength, it's not impossible to assume that it is beyond Yoriichi’s capabilities since it caught him off guard. The roughly 300 uncut pieces are the ones Yoriichi was unable to handle during his action.

He was explicitly caught off guard, meaning he had no idea muzan exploded and the process happened in an instant to him, the way i saw it was more so his reaction speed to that event and the speed with which he synthesizes information and comes up with conclusions is what helped here, and the pieces were fast enough to escape him but slow enough for him to cut 1500 of them, altho the 300 others were also explicitly "too small to be cut" so take that as you will.

and i checked the panel, the bits seem to be going in all directions from what i can see?

Saying “clearly” is not a point or an argument.

it is a point established in the fight that he is explicitly significantly faster, the fight is only inconsistent if we assume by "fast" he implied they were as fast as him rather than just fast by his standards in general.

considering right after calling him "fast" this is literally what happens, i wouldn't put much stock into interpreting his statement as "he is as fast as i am".

 

[Syncornize]

i always considered the demon's own movement speed to be slower than his movement when coming out of his shadows, or well, his pocket dimension, and regarding his stationary status, iirc tanjiro stated he had to stay close to the civilians to protect them.

Following the latest threads, BDAs are reasonably similar in stats to demons. The demon doesn't even move but sinks into its technique.

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

Following the latest threads, BDAs are reasonably similar in stats to demons. The demon doesn't even move but sinks into its technique.

in terms of output and physical strenght, yes, but this isn't really a case where he can really use it to attack per se.

Considering the demon's pocket dimension is filled with water, i reckon he swims faster than he can attack/his speed when coming out of the portal is faster than the speed he can dish out outside of it.

 

[Epyriel]

I disagree with the idea of multiple directions. The panel suggests only one direction, and not even a wide one; at most it expands as they move, and you can see Yoriichi striking at sword range. The idea of an omnidirectional explosion is not only an assumption but also something that isn’t shown in the panel at all.

Muzan isn’t really exploding,he’s splitting apart gradually. You can see that only his head is left. Even assuming that the sliced pieces are only ten per slash is a bit ambiguous, considering about 300 pieces managed to escape. Following this, and taking into account that Yoriichi is extremely close to Muzan, even with a 30× speed gap, Yoriichi would still block all the pieces before they travel more than a meter, since Muzan’s division is progressive and must occur within the same time-frame of the speed being used.

I simply cannot agree on your interpretation of the panel. This clearly seems to me to be implying an omnidirectional explosion (trying to imply Muzan only sent himself directly towards Yoriichi is quite the leap in logic in what the image is trying to portray), and the text itself says “The next moment, his body burst open with incredible force” which definitely seems to imply it happened all at once at full speed.

There is just no reason to think Yoriichi cannot be greatly faster than Muzan’s bits when everything seems to be trying to indicate exactly that.

Too bad that in the dodging feat he isn’t using Total Concentration Breathing. The calculated feat is his raw speed.

In this case he is using Total Concentration, which according to what you claim should let him blitz, yet he didn’t move.

There is a difference between just Total Concentration Breathing and Breathing Techniques. There is no reason to think he is forgoing Total Concentration Breathing when dodging, he is merely not using a Breathing Technique.

And no, Tanjiro does not use a Breathing Technique when attacking, at most he is using Total Concentration Breathing to a limited degree, but he specifies he cannot take a full swing because he can’t move too far forward without risking putting himself out of range to protect the civilians.

Saying “clearly” is not a point or an argument.
Doma is caught off guard by a slash to the eyes, this should be clear as well. Characters blitz each other in close-range panels. Multiple times, Doma is surprised by his movements. The fight is not consistent.

I thought the incredibly obvious fact that Doma was toying with them and was massively faster wouldn’t need an argument since I’ve never seen it contested before, but sure, I am happy to show why it is so universally accepted.

Doma effortlessly blitzes them repeatedly. The only reason the fight is “not consistent” is because Doma is toying with them, as his mocking laid back behaviour certainly supports. They cannot hurt him in a way that matters, and he effortlessly outspeeds them whenever he wishes.

Assuming the fight is simply inconsistent (and thus unusable) when we have a perfectly acceptable explanation for what is happening is a poor standard to try to enforce.

It’s hard to be “distracted” and not notice characters who are 39 times slower than you. This is irrelevant. A character with such a speed gap wouldn’t be described as fast; given the situation, you would use terms like “agile,” “good timing,” “nimble,” or something along those lines. If a turtle tricks me, I wouldn’t call it fast. Doma himself says that he didn’t see him because of the speed; you can’t put different words in the characters’ mouths.

Why would distractions be “irrelevant”? That is a matter of where you are looking, not speed.

And if a regular turtle puts on a burst of speed that you didn’t expect, you would absolutely call them quick. That doesn’t meant they are faster than you.

Following the latest threads, BDAs are reasonably similar in stats to demons. The demon doesn't even move but sinks into its technique.

In attack speed sure. Transposition is not the same thing. A better comparison would be to Gyokko and his pots through which he can disappear into and move through much much faster than he can regularly.

 

[Syncornize]

in terms of output and physical strenght, yes, but this isn't really a case where he can really use it to attack per se.

Considering the demon's pocket dimension is filled with water, i reckon he swims faster than he can attack/his speed when coming out of the portal is faster than the speed he can dish out outside of it.

This is also considered for speed, They have to fight with those, and the swordsmen either dodge them or block them. As you just said, it concerns his movement. He falls due to gravity, not because of his own movement. What proof is there that his speed is higher while swimming?This is not in his profile. As stated by the demon, Tanjiro is disadvantaged in the water, while he can swim. “Not because he is faster when he swims.

here doma was explicitly toying with them, even statuing them by casually walking to inosuke mid sentence, taking his mask, walking a couple meters away before inosuke can even finish said sentence.

he also called them weaklings by the end of the fight, and unmarked Inosuke being somehow relative to upper 2 in speed hardly makes sens within the scaling chain of the verse anyways.

Showing additional evidence of X being superior to Y is not an argument in favor. The fight includes moments of parity, blitzes, and outspeeding from both sides. Where is it accepted that Doma holds back by 39 times or more during the fight? You should have the link to the thread where this is accepted. Otherwise, it’s one person’s word against another’s. But aside from that, the calc has incorrect speed; regardless, the feat is lower.

There is a difference between just Total Concentration Breathing and Breathing Techniques. There is no reason to think he is forgoing Total Concentration Breathing when dodging, he is merely not using a Breathing Technique.

Yes, you just proved my point. He blitzes him without breathing techniques, but then can’t keep up with him, missing him even though with that kind of gap you’d have time to grab a ruler and measure the distance. All these speed differences you’re mentioning aren’t present in the profiles.

And no, Tanjiro does not use a Breathing Technique when attacking, at most he is using Total Concentration Breathing to a limited degree, but he specifies he cannot take a full swing because he can’t move too far forward without risking putting himself out of range to protect the civilians.

This also shows that such a large gap can’t exist, since he should have enough time to intercept him, and he should have already hit him earlier. With such a gap, there’s no match. You can’t keep up with someone who, assuming you move at 5 m/s, your opponent moves at 45 m/s.
The profile considers them equal, but the calcu doesnt.

Regarding the rest, we’re going in circles, so I’ll wait for input from a CGM

 

[DarthSorox]

I totally agree with @Syncornize

 

[Epyriel]

Yes, you just proved my point. He blitzes him without breathing techniques, but then can’t keep up with him, missing him even though with that kind of gap you’d have time to grab a ruler and measure the distance. All these speed differences you’re mentioning aren’t present in the profiles.

This also shows that such a large gap can’t exist, since he should have enough time to intercept him, and he should have already hit him earlier. With such a gap, there’s no match. You can’t keep up with someone who, assuming you move at 5 m/s, your opponent moves at 45 m/s

You absolutely can slightly lean out of the way from something 9 times faster than you when they need to complete an entire swing in the same timeframe. Especially considering it wouldn’t actually be 9 times faster since using your transposition BDA to escape is faster than your attack speed, and Tanjiro isn’t free to do a full swing.

 

[Zefra3011]

• in this calc

The problem with this calc's also that it adds the speed of the body moving on top of the arm movement. The lines of motion are only shown on the arms, and the distance the body of the demon is from Tanjiro is reasonably the same in both panels, implying it didn't move. Also, the movement of the arm isn't even a straight line, but rather an arc, and you can add up the speeds only when they go in the same direction, and they don't. The formula gets a little bit trickier. At best, I would only use the speed of the arm, rather than adding the two speeds. Or use the problem formula.

Also, the 20 m/s is straight up horrible to be used in any actual in-combat punch, because it's not. It's best to use 14 m/s as it at least comes from an actual in-combat attack (a hook).

• Here,

The calc assumes Doma ducked the attack, i.e., lowered his head, but it's crystal clear he moved backwards, away from the katana; it would only require him to move at the same speed as the attack, slightly outspeeding it at best. He even had to fit his entire arm within them, and it would be impossible if he were still close to the katana, at least that much; there would not be enough space between them.

EDIT: Since I'm at it

Here

Using Yoriichi's attack range is bad. It only works if he was exactly where Muzan was or didn't turn around to cut behind himself, which would, in a sense, increase his range, since if a piece would travel from Muzan to Yoriichi, let's say 1 meter, and after it could travel even more behind Yoriichi for 1,53 m based on the calc, for a total of 2,53 meters.

The omnidirectionality of the explosion is straight up debunked by the panel itself; the distance they are at would barely allow Yoriichi to extend the katana to reach Muzan, let alone cutting something moving behind him, and no pieces are actually seen going behind anyway, but since it's being argued...
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Regardless if these characters are comparable or not, the calcs could use a rework.

 

[Syncornize]

The problem with this calc's also that it adds the speed of the body moving on top of the arm movement. The lines of motion are only shown on the arms, and the distance the body of the demon is from Tanjiro is reasonably the same in both panels, implying it didn't move. Also, the movement of the arm isn't even a straight line, but rather an arc, and you can add up the speeds only when they go in the same direction, and they don't. The formula gets a little bit trickier. At best, I would only use the speed of the arm, rather than adding the two speeds. Or use the problem formula.

Also, the 20 m/s is straight up horrible to be used in any actual in-combat punch, because it's not. It's best to use 14 m/s as it at least comes from an actual in-combat attack (a hook).

The calc assumes Doma ducked the attack, i.e., lowered his head, but it's crystal clear he moved backwards, away from the katana; it would only require him to move at the same speed as the attack, slightly outspeeding it at best. He even had to fit his entire arm within them, and it would be impossible if he were still close to the katana, at least that much; there would not be enough space between them.

I will add this

 

[Syncornize]

You absolutely can slightly lean out of the way from something 9 times faster than you when they need to complete an entire swing in the same timeframe. Especially considering it wouldn’t actually be 9 times faster since using your transposition BDA to escape is faster than your attack speed, and Tanjiro isn’t free to do a full swing.

They both need to move within the same timeframe, as if the total miss of two attacks were not shown, without knowing when they started. .With just a small dash, he could have killed him “and the slight movement forward wouldn’t have been a problem for protecting the civilians… it’s just a few steps. And no, with the current BDA rules, there cannot be a gap of 9 times.

 

[Epyriel]

They both need to move within the same timeframe, as if the total miss of two attacks were not shown, without knowing when they started. .With just a small dash, he could have killed him “and the slight movement forward wouldn’t have been a problem for protecting the civilians… it’s just a few steps.

Dude this is literally the explanation Tanjiro himself gives. You are arguing with the manga itself.

And no, with the current BDA rules, there cannot be a gap of 9 times.

What? There is nothing in the series nor accepted on site that prevents a demon’s movement ability being greater than their own speed. Gyokko’s pot ducking works the same way.

 

[Epyriel]

The calc assumes Doma ducked the attack, i.e., lowered his head, but it's crystal clear he moved backwards, away from the katana; it would only require him to move at the same speed as the attack, slightly outspeeding it at best. He even had to fit his entire arm within them, and it would be impossible if he were still close to the katana, at least that much; there would not be enough space between them.

Yeah no, that would not require him to be only “slightly outspeeding it at best” it would require him to move at minimum the entire length of his head back in the time it takes Kanao to finish moving her blade the last centimetre towards his neck.

Heads are generally taller top to bottom then they are wide front to back (and Kanao’s blade sticks out a bit further behind the back of his head) meaning this would only upgrade the calc if you assume he moved straight back instead of ducking first like Xaro assumes.

here

BDAs got accepted as a Non-Physical Energy System, not a full UES.

And even if they had been, how exactly does that prevent pocket dimension shenanigans from acting differently than regular movement?

 

[Zefra3011]

Yeah no, that would not require him to be only “slightly outspeeding it at best” it would require him to move at minimum the entire length of his head back in the time it takes Kanao to finish moving her blade the last centimetre towards his neck.

Heads are generally taller top to bottom then they are wide front to back (and Kanao’s blade sticks out a bit further behind the back of his head) meaning this would only upgrade the calc if you assume he moved straight back instead of ducking first like Xaro assumes.

I said "slightly outspeed at best" because the katana makes an arc rather than moving in the same direction, but the more he goes back, the more distance there is between him and the katana. The calc uses the lowest distance just because, when to escape, Doma only needed to move a few cm, to be in a position where there's a higher distance.

It's similar to when, for a close proximity punch feat, you use the distance punch-nose for the entire thing, when the character would only require to move a very little distance to make the nose "dodge." Here, Doma only needed a short distance to escape the distance the calc propose, because again, the more he moves backwards, the more the distance widens.

 

[Syncornize]

And even if they had been, how exactly does that prevent pocket dimension shenanigans from acting differently than regular movement?

Here, with a 9-times gap, he should have blitzed him even if caught by surprise, since he did it at a disgustingly shorter distance. Here, it looks like he’s barely dodging at half the speed calculated, and it regenerated right in his face.

 

[Epyriel]

I said "slightly outspeed at best" because the katana makes an arc rather than moving in the same direction, but the more he goes back, the more distance there is between him and the katana. The calc uses the lowest distance just because, when to escape, Doma only needed to move a few cm, to be in a position where there's a higher distance.

It's similar to when, for a close proximity punch feat, you use the distance punch-nose for the entire thing, when the character would only require to move a very little distance to make the nose "dodge." Here, Doma only needed a short distance to escape the distance the calc propose, because again, the more he moves backwards, the more the distance widens.

Ah, but now you are contradicting your own take that he dodged straight backwards. In order for the gap at the back of his head to be the nearest point of contact he would need to be moving diagonally to the side as otherwise the closer point on his neck that was measured would remain the nearest point of contact all the while as he moves backwards.

Here, with a 9-times gap, he should have blitzed him even if caught by surprise, since he did it at a disgustingly shorter distance. Here, it looks like he’s barely dodging at half the speed calculated, and it regenerated right in his face.

A different matter, yet even here it is clear in both scenes that Tanjiro is significantly faster than the demon, even after being taken by surprise. I would encourage you to watch the anime sequence for this - he is constantly doing elaborate dodges to avoid near misses even after being attacked by surprise from changing directions.

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

This is also considered for speed, They have to fight with those, and the swordsmen either dodge them or block them. As you just said, it concerns his movement. He falls due to gravity, not because of his own movement. What proof is there that his speed is higher while swimming?

i don't particularly feel like thinking much, but just because evidence isn't existent doesn't mean we can't infer intrepretations/explanations from the series to fix any "inconsistencies" (or holes within our interpretation of the fight) as long as the information provided from within the series isn't contradicted or negated, at the very, the impression i got from the demon was the speed he had when coming out of his dimension seemed to be faster than his normal speed.

and unless the portal halts all his momentum or he for some reason didn't build up as much speed as he can by swimming the yeeting himself out of the dimension and just opened a portal to fall on tanjiro, the notion that he is faster when he comes out of the pocket dimension is plenty good.

This is not in his profile. As stated by the demon, Tanjiro is disadvantaged in the water, while he can swim. “Not because he is faster when he swims.

I never said that was my reasoning for thinking he had higher speed, i said his speed when coming out of the portal seemed to be higher than his normal speed, which is vastly different.

Showing additional evidence of X being superior to Y is not an argument in favor.

It is an argument in favor giving how explicit it is and assuming the model we're interpreting doesn't negate it.

The fight includes moments of parity, blitzes, and outspeeding from both sides.

This fight isn't happening in a vaccum, we have to find the most accurate interpretation that takes into account every single event as long as one event doesn't negate the other.

And the only way around that in this fight/the only viable conclusion based on the available data is from Doma calling them weaklings, him liking to toy with his opponents and explicitly statuing them is he was holding back against them.

There is no other viable way we can see this fight without everything falling apart, if there is a better interpretation you have that works for it and takes everything possible into consideration feel free to state it.

Where is it accepted that Doma holds back by 39 times or more during the fight?

You need a crt for this 2?

it’s one person’s word against another’s. But aside from that, the calc has incorrect speed; regardless, the feat is lower.

idk if it is, i'm more so arguing against the notion that Doma isn't faster, and a person's word can be more valid than the others depending on how "complete" their interpretation is.

which is why we argue anyways

 

[Zefra3011]

Ah, but now you are contradicting your own take that he dodged straight backwards. In order for the gap at the back of his head to be the nearest point of contact he would need to be moving diagonally to the side as otherwise the closer point on his neck that was measured would remain the nearest point of contact all the while as he moves backwards.

Not sure what you mean. Regardless, CGMs will check this and see what's best.

 

[Arsuzz]

OP's arguments seem more convincing and consistent

 

[Machmatej]

I can agree with the lightning feat, but i disagree with everything else for epyriel's and m*riad's reasons

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

I can agree with the lightning feat, but i disagree with everything else for epyriel's and m*riad's reasons

why did you censor my name

 

[Robo432343]

Bump

 

[NikHelton]

Bump

 

[Syncornize]

bump

 

[Syncornize]

bump

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Here, the katana’s speed is incorrectly extrapolated from the context. The speed used is that of a BB pellet/bullet, not of the sword slash. The context says that the swordsman stopped the bullet, which was moving at that speed. The katana would be twice as fast as a regular sword… (Moreover, using the maximum speed of a sword would still be wrong, because that speed is reached only at the point where it hits its maximum peak, which in this case it hasn’t reached)

The speed used was the fastest sword slash with a katana. Not exactly a terrible assumption given all Demon Slayers are Superhuman

- Doma calls Inosuke’s movements "quick" and he doesn’t notice them. According to the calc, the two swordsmen being relative to him should have sword movements 39 times slower than Doma, yet they are still able to be hit him afterward.

Doma wasn't taking the fight seriously.

- Scenes like the one used in the calc appear multiple times during the fight, so I think they shouldn’t be taken into account; there’s even a rule for this. The gap shown between the three of them is not that large, or at least it is not consistently so.

See reason above.

Rest is Gucci

 

[Syncornize]

bump

 

[Naito-desu]

I was asked to comment on this, and it seems to require a bit of specificity that I haven't really analyzed the manga panels well enough to make an educated guess on. The calcs themselves could use a recalc based on renewed assumptions, but whether or not they should replace them is a matter best settled in a CRT, given it's heavily based in lore context.

Could someone assist me in summarizing the most heavily contested points and which ones are more or less agreed upon?

 

[Epyriel]

I was asked to comment on this, and it seems to require a bit of specificity that I haven't really analyzed the manga panels well enough to make an educated guess on. The calcs themselves could use a recalc based on renewed assumptions, but whether or not they should replace them is a matter best settled in a CRT, given it's heavily based in lore context.

Could someone assist me in summarizing the most heavily contested points and which ones are more or less agreed upon?

Sure, here is a brief summary:

Calc 1:
- OP argues calc can’t be used since the character dodging (Tanjiro) is relative to the demon he is supposedly outspeeding by a factor of 9. This argument has been challenged since the panels offered to support their relatively are within the context of Tanjiro explicitly refraining from swinging properly to stay within reaching distance of those he is defending.

Calc 2:
-OP points out the apparent speed was accidentally taken from a figure that reported the speed of a BB that was fired instead of the speed of the sword. So a new apparent speed shall need to be found and the calc re-calculated accordingly. No one has challenged this.
-OP also argues that the gap between the two characters is exaggerated since they show relativity in other scenes. This point has been challenged since one character is holding back and should not be considered at all relative to the other.

Calc 3:
-OP argues that Muzan splitting into pieces wasn’t actually omnidirectional and that Yoriichi can’t be so much faster than Muzan’s pieces. This has been heavily challenged on the grounds of descriptions of the event and the in-lore context (Yoriichi is consistently show as massively faster, and why would Muzan exclusively split towards his opponent?). Since then I’ve also come across a statement in the novel that explicitly states he exploded in every direction:

Strangely enough, her eyes seemed to shine with a glittering light of hope. “I decided to finish the man off before dealing with her” he said. When Yoriichi took a single step toward the man, there was a cracking sound from the molars clenched tight in his mouth. In the next instant, Muzan's body burst apart with tremendous force. Countless tiny fragments of flesh scattered in every direction. Yoriichi swung his sword, cutting them one after another. Of the 1,800 scattered pieces of flesh, he severed 1,500 and a little more on the spot. Yet the remaining pieces were too small. He had let escape a fragment of flesh that, if combined, would likely have been about the size of a human head.

-Demon Slayer Novelization

Calc 4:
-OP points out some basic calc issues. No one has challenged this.

 

[Syncornize]

I was asked to comment on this, and it seems to require a bit of specificity that I haven't really analyzed the manga panels well enough to make an educated guess on. The calcs themselves could use a recalc based on renewed assumptions, but whether or not they should replace them is a matter best settled in a CRT, given it's heavily based in lore context.

Could someone assist me in summarizing the most heavily contested points and which ones are more or less agreed upon?

I’ll try to briefly summarize what I questioned

calculation no. 1
Given the circumstances, the calculation adds together the speed of a punch (20.12 m/s) and the movement speed (12.22 m/s) of the demon attacking Tanjiro, resulting in his feat being about 10 times faster than the attack (291 m/s).
In the blog there are weak justifications. As I explain, Tanjiro defines the demon’s movements as fast (considered as 12.22 in the calculation), and the two fight for 3 chapters and are considered equals in the demon’s profile. With the speed from the calculation, Tanjiro could have killed the demon on multiple occasions.
The anime (canon according to the wiki), in addition to showing a situation of parity, depicts the scene used for the calculation as an anticipatory dodge.

From a calculation standpoint, the problem is that the speed used for the strike is that of a generic punch, not that of a strike in combat, while the arm movement is actually an arc, making the speed of a hook (14 m/s) more reasonable. Adding movement speed does not seem sensible, since in the various panels the distance between the demon and Tanjiro is unchanged; the only thing moving toward him in those panels is the arm. The speeds can only be added when the direction is the same, and that is not the case.


Calculation no. 2
The time frame used for the sword’s speed was not performed by the swordsman but by the projectile that was intercepted. Not knowing the dynamics, distances, etc., we cannot know the speed of the slash, especially considering that it is not even mentioned in the text. Douma dodges by moving backward; looking at this, in order to escape he only needed to move a few centimeters to reach a position where the distance between him and the katana was greater, which would not require the speed obtained in the calculation.


Calculation no. 3
The calculation assumes an omnidirectional explosion, while in the panel the explosion is shown moving toward the character and is contradicted by the panel itself. The distance at which they are positioned would barely allow Yoriichi to extend his katana to reach Muzan, let alone cut something moving behind him, and in any case no fragments are seen moving backward. The body does not explode instantaneously but gradually; considering that this occurs at the speed of sound, gradually reaching multiple objects at this speed with very little distance between them makes the feat achievable with a speed far lower than the one calculated.


Calculation no. 4
I think this one is fairly clear. The proportions were not maintained by the OP in the calculation. The distance of the lightning cannot be determined, since it could be higher up, and it is shown that Tanjiro moves before the lightning appears on screen.

 

[Drite77]

Ok, geezus

For the first calc: If those 2 characters are relative to each other, the calc can't be used, plain and simple

For the second calc: The speed used for the sword is wrong but the same thing from above applies, if they are relative to each other, the calc can't be used, and there is also the rule issued by our own calculation page that I think makes this calculation unusable once combined with the other points

For the third calc: The only problem I have with the calc is the usage of a previous Demon's speed to scale to something done by another character, which is not something banned by the site, but it is something I hate because it can lead to stupid assumptions, like the one provided in the calc. I think this calc is harmless because the character in question doesn't even scale to this, but to something much faster.

For the fourth calc: Outside of the reference points, if Tanjiro really started moving before the lightning came down, then it can't be used. But I reckon figuring out a bigger distance is not overly complicated

 

[Epyriel]

Ok, geezus

For the first calc: If those 2 characters are relative to each other, the calc can't be used, plain and simple

That is the contention. I, the calc itself, and other have argued that they are not relative and that a 9x gap is entirely consistent. The only real anti-feat provided to counter this was done under circumstances where his movement was explicitly restricted out of consideration for staying close to those he needs to guard.

For the second calc: The speed used for the sword is wrong but the same thing from above applies, if they are relative to each other, the calc can't be used, and there is also the rule issued by our own calculation page that I think makes this calculation unusable once combined with the other points

This is another contention. These two characters definitely aren’t relative and to say they are is an incredibly fringe view in the community. Doma blitzed Inosuke twice without effort while holding back/playing around.

 

[Aytugsss]

Hi, I wanted to bring up some things that I think should be noted

• in this calc, any attempt to remove the contradiction is bound to fail.
  
  - Here the demon, by moving backward, dodges Tanjiro’s two slashes; in the calc the demon’s movement speed is about 280 m/s slower.
  
  - Tanjiro considers something "fast" even when it’s 23 times slower, and that’s why he hits the arm instead of the neck, not because of a lack of accuracy. In this scene he was saved by Nezuko while he remained practically motionless, whereas the demon was moving. With this kind of speed gap, missing the target due to lack of skill is still ambiguous, since he had enough speed to act calmly. That would only make sense in rushed circumstances. I understand that we’re not talking about differences in the triple digit range, but while the demon moves 10 cm, he should be covering almost 1 meter... the gap is still too large.
  
  EDIT
  - In the profile, they are considered relative, but the calculation concludes that there is a gap between them. Tanjiro used his base speed for the feat. Following the anime, the demon dodges without any problem. “The calc. scene in the anime is completely different. Tanjiro dodges the attack in advance.
  
  EDIT thx to @Zefra3011
• For this

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

• Here, the katana’s speed is incorrectly extrapolated from the context. The speed used is that of a BB pellet/bullet, not of the sword slash. The context says that the swordsman stopped the bullet, which was moving at that speed. The katana would be twice as fast as a regular sword… (Moreover, using the maximum speed of a sword would still be wrong, because that speed is reached only at the point where it hits its maximum peak, which in this case it hasn’t reached)
  
  - Doma calls Inosuke’s movements "quick" and he doesn’t notice them. According to the calc, the two swordsmen being relative to him should have sword movements 39 times slower than Doma, yet they are still able to be hit him afterward.
  
  - Scenes like the one used in the calc appear multiple times during the fight, so I think they shouldn’t be taken into account; there’s even a rule for this. The gap shown between the three of them is not that large, or at least it is not consistently so.
• 
  
  EDIT thx to @Zefra3011
  - for this and this
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  
• Here, the premise is that Yoriichi was caught off guard by something 363 times slower than him , which he would technically perceive as almost motionless, and on top of that he possesses limited precognition that allows him to see things in slow motion. Being taken by surprise under these conditions, and allowing those fragments to travel the distance shown in the panel, is impossible.
  
  - The image does not seem to suggest an omnidirectional explosion (as assumed), but rather an explosion directed toward Yoriichi. An explosion isn't necessarily omnidirectional.
  
  - Based on the fact that Yoriichi considers Muzan’s division to possess incredible strength, it's not impossible to assume that it is beyond Yoriichi’s capabilities since it caught him off guard. The roughly 300 uncut pieces are the ones Yoriichi was unable to handle during his action.
  
  EDIT
  -The scene shows that while Muzan’s head has exploded, the rest of his body is still present. His separation is therefore gradual or in parts, not all at once. Considering that this happens at SOS, the feat could be performed even at lower speeds
  
  - Using Yoriichi's attack range is bad. It only works if he was exactly where Muzan was or didn't turn around to cut behind himself, which would, in a sense, increase his range, since if a piece would travel from Muzan to Yoriichi, let's say 1 meter, and after it could travel even more behind Yoriichi for 1,53 m based on the calc, for a total of 2,53 meters.
  
  - The omnidirectionality of the explosion is straight up debunked by the panel itself; the distance they are at would barely allow Yoriichi to extend the katana to reach Muzan, let alone cutting something moving behind him, and no pieces are actually seen going behind anyway, but since it's being argued...
  
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  EDIT:
  I forgot to mention this.
  
  
• this calc the proportions aren't correct and consistent with those mentioned by the OP. The reference points distance traveled by Tanjiro and the height of the screen end up being excessively large. (I know I used the width; I used it because it's the longest part of the image, and the pixels don’t match the OP’s.)
  
  - The calc in question assumes that the lightning started from the distance measured at screen height, when it could very easily be farther away; there’s no distance that can be verified in any measurable way.
  
  - Following the scene, we can see that Tanjiro

İ think we shouldnt use marks

Hi, I wanted to bring up some things that I think should be noted

• in this calc, any attempt to remove the contradiction is bound to fail.
  
  - Here the demon, by moving backward, dodges Tanjiro’s two slashes; in the calc the demon’s movement speed is about 280 m/s slower.
  
  - Tanjiro considers something "fast" even when it’s 23 times slower, and that’s why he hits the arm instead of the neck, not because of a lack of accuracy. In this scene he was saved by Nezuko while he remained practically motionless, whereas the demon was moving. With this kind of speed gap, missing the target due to lack of skill is still ambiguous, since he had enough speed to act calmly. That would only make sense in rushed circumstances. I understand that we’re not talking about differences in the triple digit range, but while the demon moves 10 cm, he should be covering almost 1 meter... the gap is still too large.
  
  EDIT
  - In the profile, they are considered relative, but the calculation concludes that there is a gap between them. Tanjiro used his base speed for the feat. Following the anime, the demon dodges without any problem. “The calc. scene in the anime is completely different. Tanjiro dodges the attack in advance.
  
  EDIT thx to @Zefra3011
• For this

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

• Here, the katana’s speed is incorrectly extrapolated from the context. The speed used is that of a BB pellet/bullet, not of the sword slash. The context says that the swordsman stopped the bullet, which was moving at that speed. The katana would be twice as fast as a regular sword… (Moreover, using the maximum speed of a sword would still be wrong, because that speed is reached only at the point where it hits its maximum peak, which in this case it hasn’t reached)
  
  - Doma calls Inosuke’s movements "quick" and he doesn’t notice them. According to the calc, the two swordsmen being relative to him should have sword movements 39 times slower than Doma, yet they are still able to be hit him afterward.
  
  - Scenes like the one used in the calc appear multiple times during the fight, so I think they shouldn’t be taken into account; there’s even a rule for this. The gap shown between the three of them is not that large, or at least it is not consistently so.
• 
  
  EDIT thx to @Zefra3011
  - for this and this
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  
• Here, the premise is that Yoriichi was caught off guard by something 363 times slower than him , which he would technically perceive as almost motionless, and on top of that he possesses limited precognition that allows him to see things in slow motion. Being taken by surprise under these conditions, and allowing those fragments to travel the distance shown in the panel, is impossible.
  
  - The image does not seem to suggest an omnidirectional explosion (as assumed), but rather an explosion directed toward Yoriichi. An explosion isn't necessarily omnidirectional.
  
  - Based on the fact that Yoriichi considers Muzan’s division to possess incredible strength, it's not impossible to assume that it is beyond Yoriichi’s capabilities since it caught him off guard. The roughly 300 uncut pieces are the ones Yoriichi was unable to handle during his action.
  
  EDIT
  -The scene shows that while Muzan’s head has exploded, the rest of his body is still present. His separation is therefore gradual or in parts, not all at once. Considering that this happens at SOS, the feat could be performed even at lower speeds
  
  - Using Yoriichi's attack range is bad. It only works if he was exactly where Muzan was or didn't turn around to cut behind himself, which would, in a sense, increase his range, since if a piece would travel from Muzan to Yoriichi, let's say 1 meter, and after it could travel even more behind Yoriichi for 1,53 m based on the calc, for a total of 2,53 meters.
  
  - The omnidirectionality of the explosion is straight up debunked by the panel itself; the distance they are at would barely allow Yoriichi to extend the katana to reach Muzan, let alone cutting something moving behind him, and no pieces are actually seen going behind anyway, but since it's being argued...
  
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  EDIT:
  I forgot to mention this.
  
  
• this calc the proportions aren't correct and consistent with those mentioned by the OP. The reference points distance traveled by Tanjiro and the height of the screen end up being excessively large. (I know I used the width; I used it because it's the longest part of the image, and the pixels don’t match the OP’s.)
  
  - The calc in question assumes that the lightning started from the distance measured at screen height, when it could very easily be farther away; there’s no distance that can be verified in any measurable way.
  
  - Following the scene, we can see that Tanjiro

We shouldnt use 10x speed up that come with mark i think because its leeds to many contradiction
İ wanna talk about this but i dont know who can i talk

 

[Drite77]

That is the contention. I, the calc itself, and other have argued that they are not relative and that a 9x gap is entirely consistent. The only real anti-feat provided to counter this was done under circumstances where his movement was explicitly restricted out of consideration for staying close to those he needs to guard.

Yet, the current profiles have them as equals. Perhaps more experienced people with the verse can confirm this stance better then me, but if it is a quick fight I can take a look in the anime since it is in Netflix, as long as people can wait a few hours since I have to go to an event.

This is another contention. These two characters definitely aren’t relative and to say they are is an incredibly fringe view in the community. Doma blitzed Inosuke twice without effort while holding back/playing around.

Same as above since there is a key for the character who scales to Inosuke