Dragon Ball's Durability Negation

[SwordLegendz01]

Frieza

Telekinesis

• Limited Durability Negation (Energy & Matter; Via Death Psycho Bomb, a psychokinetic technique which causes an internal explosion that propagates from within the opponent's body)

Vegeta

Explosion Manipulation (Can use Dirty Fireworks to make opponents suddenly explode, whether pulverized or detonated violently)

Babidi

Blood Manipulation

• Limited Durability Negation (Magic; Via Explosion Sorcery, which transmitted thoughts into the opponent causing the blood within to convulse, rapidly swell the body thus ultimately triggering an explosion)

Majin Buu

Body Control

• Limited Durability Negation (Internal Structures; Via Liquefaction, which turned into liquid and entered the opponent's body, then reshaped the form to swell up and explode from within)

Gogeta

Explosion Manipulation

• Limited Durability Negation (Energy & Internal Structures; Can imbue energy into the opponent’s abdomen and detonate internally, bypassing durability by causing a massive explosion from within the body)

Broly

Limited Resistance to Durability Negation (Energy & Internal Structures; Survived an internal energy explosion embedded in the abdomen, caused by the opponent’s punch and internal energy release from within the body)

Should the other Saiyans also be scaled based on Broly's feats? Or should they only be scaled to Goku and Vegeta?

Agree: @Vietthai96 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Damage3245 @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[IvarUHQ]

I agree, all these feats are in line with what Dura Neg expected.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

I agree, all these feats are in line with what Dura Neg expected.

Thanks!

 

[RedReaper616]

Frieza


Vegeta


Babidi


Majin Buu


Gogeta


Broly


Should the other Saiyans also be scaled based on Broly's feats? Or should they only be scaled to Goku and Vegeta?

Agree: @IvarUHQ
Disagree:

Shouldn't all also double as Internal Structure? All of the Durability Negation methods rely on specifically blowing them up from the inside. Though, I agree with them.

Also, considering how the events describe it as Gogeta just blowing up his Ki inside Broly and Broly tanking it with no special defense, I don't see why it wouldn't apply to all Ki users? It's Broly's (standard/non-unique) Ki-Reinforcement allowing him to tank the blast, so presumably all characters who enhance their durability with Ki should be similar.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Shouldn't all also double as Internal Structure? All of the Durability Negation methods rely on specifically blowing them up from the inside.

For this, it seems that Majin Buu's feat is a little different unlike Vegeta and Frieza who in the anime are clearly seen injecting energy into their opponent's body, and with Gogeta who is clearly able to concentrate his energy into Broly's abdomen (more specific) as well. Majin Buu does this with his ability to liquefy himself.

Also, considering how the events describe it as Gogeta just blowing up his Ki inside Broly and Broly tanking it with no special defense, I don't see why it wouldn't apply to all Ki users? It's Broly's (standard/non-unique) Ki-Reinforcement allowing him to tank the blast, so presumably all characters who enhance their durability with Ki should be similar.

I think it also affects his body physiology even though he didn't seem to put up any resistance when Gogeta turned Blue, but no matter how strong the upper layers of a person's body are, the lower/inner layers aren't strong enough to withstand the destruction from within.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Should it even be a resistance to durability negation? I mean I get where it's coming from, but it seems kinda misleading. It just means their internals are equal to their external durability, no?

 

[StarShooter80]

I think this looks good, I’ll stay neutral on resistance to DN for Broly it’s a bit weird.

I might also collect scans for Toei and Kai in my spare time so those don’t miss out either

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

I agree 100%, I'm glad this topic is being addressed

 

[Chariot190]

Tbh I wouldn't call any of this durability negation.
Durability still matters, it just targets points that would be a tad weaker like the internals, but it still has to get past the internals' durability.
And Broly literally doesn't resist shit, it nearly killed him.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Should it even be a resistance to durability negation? I mean I get where it's coming from, but it seems kinda misleading. It just means their internals are equal to their external durability, no?

It doesn't seem like it, if we look back at the scene where Vegito restricted Buu's movement when he tried to blow Vegito up from the inside, it seems like Vegito said things about him blocking Buu's movement there where Buu should have been able to blow Vegito up from the inside if Vegito had just let him move freely, like this it can also be said that their internal durability can still be compromised regardless of their external durability.

I might also collect scans for Toei and Kai in my spare time so those don’t miss out either

Same, I've updated some DBS Anime profiles to Kai.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Tbh I wouldn't call any of this durability negation

I wonder which ones.

And Broly literally doesn't resist shit, it nearly killed him.

The novel says it exploded Broly's abdomen, but it never says it destroyed the inside of Broly's abdomen despite the massive explosion it produced.

 

[Vietthai96]

And Broly literally doesn't resist shit, it nearly killed him.

Uhmm, no, he got alot of beating before that explosion move from Gogeta, and he is pretty much, fine aside from multiple bruises, what nearly kill him was the Kamehameha

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Tbh I wouldn't call any of this durability negation.
Durability still matters, it just targets points that would be a tad weaker like the internals, but it still has to get past the internals' durability.
And Broly literally doesn't resist shit, it nearly killed him.

Attacking internally is literally categorized as durability negation.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Agreed this is something that should’ve been done a lot earlier but I’m neutral on resistance leaning onto agreement.

 

[Chariot190]

Attacking internally is literally categorized as durability negation.

That's dumb and not even true, a lot of internal organs have equivalent durability even irl and 99% of characters have equivalent durability internally because if they didn't the force of a punch would liquify their internals passively just because. If need be I'll go get that shit changed because it's misleading at best, straight up wrong at worst.

I wonder which ones.

The novel says it exploded Broly's abdomen, but it never says it destroyed the inside of Broly's abdomen despite the massive explosion it produced.

This is my bad, I thought OP meant Z Broly.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

If need be I'll got get that shit changed because it's misleading at best, straight up wrong at worst.

Well, you need to change that to argue that it is not categorized as.

 

[Chariot190]

Well, you need to change that to argue that it is not categorized as.

What did I LITERALLY just say?

 

[RedReaper616]

Should it even be a resistance to durability negation? I mean I get where it's coming from, but it seems kinda misleading. It just means their internals are equal to their external durability, no?

Internal attacks are considered “Limited Durability Negation,” on the Wiki, because different series have different takes on interval Vs external durability. It’s still resistance, because you’re resisting attacks that target weaker internals by not having weaker internals. For instance, Garou from OPM uses one of these.

All it means is your internals are relative to your external, so someone like Garou, who relies on negating durability by attacking internally when one’s external durability is too high, would not affect a Ki User, as their durability is uniform.

Also, as Chariot noted, as the Durability Negation is Limited, so is the resistance.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

That's dumb and not even true, a lot of internal organs have equivalent durability even irl and 99% of characters have equivalent durability internally because if they didn't the force of a punch would liquify their internals passively just because. If need be I'll got get that shit changed because it's misleading at best, straight up wrong at worst.

One of the most blatant examples I can think of off the top of my head for this would be Naruto since its stated verbatim that attacking their insides is so effective because Chakra can't buff their organs like that when they explained the Hyuuga fighting style in Naruto vs Neji.

 

[Chariot190]

Internal attacks are considered “Limited Durability Negation,” on the Wiki, because different series have different takes on interval Vs external durability. It’s still resistance, because you’re resisting attacks that target weaker internals by not having weaker internals. For instance, Garou from OPM uses one of these. All it means is your internals are relative to your external, so someone like Garou, who relies on negating durability by attacking internally when one’s external durability is too high, would not affect a Ki User, as their durability is uniform.

Also, as Chariot noted, as the Durability Negation is Limited, so is the resistance.

Tbh i'm fine with Limited actually, just treating it as flatout is dumb because that's just not true, it's more like durability mitigation than actual negation.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Internal attacks are considered “Limited Durability Negation,” on the Wiki

Where is this written on the page?

 

[RedReaper616]

Tbh i'm fine with Limited actually, just treating it as flatout is dumb because that's just not true, it's more like durability mitigation than actual negation.

Yeah, it’s always been a Limited thing as far as I can remember. Not a “full on” thing.

EDIT:

Where is this written on the page?

It’s always been an unofficial classification/understanding of the ability. In the same way the term “Smurf” and the applications aren’t directly annotated on Wiki but understood here on the forum.

EDIT 2:

You CAN see reference to it in the Resistance page, though.

Quote: “Abilities which only circumvent durability to a limited extent: These are abilities which do not function completely independent of the scale of durability. This includes things like pressure point techniques, acupuncture and attacks on internal organs, as all those need to be able to deal at least a tiny amount of damage to produce their effect. Certain more exotic hax can also fall into this category, such as abilities that disintegrate molecules or atoms, as for a character with infinitely stronger durability the bonds between the particles making up their body would also need to be infinitely stronger.”

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Garou from OPM uses one of these.

Garou is one of the examples of characters who do not have "Limited" along with durability negation attacking internal organs.

It’s always been an unofficial classification. In the same way the term Smurf and the applications aren’t directly annotated but understood here on the forum.

Smurf is categorized and annotated on the wiki.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Looks simple enough, I agree

 

[RedReaper616]

Garou is one of the examples of characters who do not have "Limited" along with durability negation attacking internal organs.

Then Garou is annotated incorrectly.

See Naruto’s profile, Homelander’s Resistance to this form of Durability Negation, and more.

Smurf is categorized and annotated on the wiki.

Great. Doesn’t change the second edit where I literally highlighted reference to its limited designation in the Resistance page, though.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Then Garou is annotated incorrectly.

Since "Limited" doesn't even seem to be an official term on the fandom wiki (I didn't find a page talking about it on the fandom wiki), not including it is not an indexing error because the standards for the term don't really exist.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

attacking from the inside is the first thing anyone thinks of when they think of durability negation

 

[LaserPrecision]

attacking from the inside is the first thing anyone thinks of when they think of durability negation

I think more like spatial cutting or any subset of reality warping tbh

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Regardless of whether or not you want the dura neg to be limited (which seems to be entirely based off vibes or whatever based on how it's indexed), the end result is the same. Just like how there is different levels of many abilities even within the same category such as regeneration, fire manipulation, energy projection and more, this is just a dura neg ability that's easily blocked by anyone who's internal durability is equal or greater then their external durability.

Even if you classify it as full dura neg that works by targeting internals, a quick read of the description would make it clear that it's not some kind of super attack that automatically ignores all forms of durability. Like how low regeneration is the ability to regenerate from serious wounds much faster, anywhere from Nnoitora's low regeneration from his sword release instantly healing giant slashes on his chest while Tanjiro's low regeneration simply stops hemorrhages from progressing and still leaves him heavily injured.

Essentially, rather then a limited version, this is just a version that has ways to be resisted easier then some other ways.

 

[Chariot190]

attacking from the inside is the first thing anyone thinks of when they think of durability negation

No it isn't. They think of attacks that deal damage regardless of one's durability, like Vergil's spatial slashes, Killer Queen's transmutation, or dozens of other characters.
And if they think internal attacks? Then they fell for the internals being weak propaganda
Looking at your ass Murata.
Like technically speaking, nothing is being negated.

snip

Doesn't matter. We should index it properly and not mislead with it.
Every example you listed we actually do, or have begun to, differentiate (We have subcategories for regen for example, and fire and heat we've started listing the temps for for both res and the output, etc).
It should still be limited because the very premise, is a highly limited version of the ability in question.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

No it isn't. They think of attacks that deal damage regardless of one's durability, like Vergil's spatial slashes, Killer Queen's transmutation, or dozens of other characters.
And if they think internal attacks? Then they fell for the internals being weak propaganda
Looking at your ass Murata.
Like technically speaking, nothing is being negated.

Doesn't matter. We should index it properly and not mislead with it.
Every example you listed we actually do, or have begun to, differentiate (We have subcategories for regen for example, and fire and heat we've started listing the temps for for both res and the output, etc).
It should still be limited because the very premise, is a highly limited version of the ability in question.

I'm pointing out that the ability remains the same, and it seems as though limited for dura neg is something decided per crt as opposed to being an actual indexed category which means as of now, it's not a matter of misleading or not. Moreover, I literally pointed out the discrepancy in capability between THE SAME VERSION of an ability (Low Regeneration), not the ability having multiple versions. Heat having temperature differences actually helps my point, as this would just be a version of dura neg that is easily resisted by having stronger internal organs. It is not necessarily limited, as that would assume it has limitations towards the ability usage, which it doesn't necessarily have (unless it does, which again is based on each individual ability).

Limited abilities seem to be for abilities that can only be activated a specific way, or are only able to do something in a specific circumstance. For dura neg, that would make the ability limited if the requirements were far stricter, but since there are types of dura neg, this would just fall under a type. We don't say "Limited Low Regeneration" for worse performing Low Regeneration, we say "Low Regeneration" and list out what it does. This wouldn't be "Limited Dura Neg" because it's not situational or can only be done under a certain circumstance, it's just "Dura Neg" but not as good as other ones.

Now, do I think this should be dura neg in the first place? That's, well... debatable. But since that is what's currently accepted as a way of bypassing durability (alongside limited seemingly not being a sitewide thing for dura neg), I think that it does count. However, I can absolutely see the arguments for why it would not and I do think that the easier way to solve this would be, as you said, to make a CRT about dura neg and change that. WITHIN THE CURRENTLY DEFINED DURABILITY NEGATION PAGE, I think this is full dura neg.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

My take is that yes, attacking internal structures does count as outright Durability Negation. Defining it as just limited doesn't really make sense when the page lists it as the number one example of Durability Negation. All of the listed DB characters have illustrated the ability to blow up said internal structures. And yes I also agree resistance to Durability Negation should be provided to Ki Manipulation in general. Something like:

• Durability Negation (Internal; Vegeta can explode a target from the inside using Dirty Fireworks)
• Resistance to Durability Negation (Internal; Ki reinforces the durability of internal organs)

How this is treated with other verses should be a case by case situation. For example Garou claims you can't train internal organs. Which means most of the verse does not resist Vegeta's Dirty Fireworks. But Saitama clearly survives Garou's Durability Negation so he would resist Durability Negation of this kind. No different from any other form of resistance.

If you disagree with how durability negation is treated in this way, particularly attacking internal structures, then that warrants a separate CRT regarding the current Durability Negation standards. As it stands right now, this CRT is completely valid for outright Durability Negation.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The Babidi one should probably be listed as Blood Manip.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I think the wiki does not put resistance to Durability Negation, but resistance to the method of how durability was negated. Or that was what I remember to be agreed in the thread that removed resistance to durability negation of Saitama

Edit: Found it

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Resistance to Durability Negation (Internal; Ki reinforces the durability of internal organs)

Eh, I forgot about this part, it seems like it was never shown? That's why I counted it as something Broly himself had, which I guess Goku and Vegeta should be able to do, and maybe other Saiyans too.

I think the wiki does not put resistance to Durability Negation, but resistance to the method of how durability was negated. Or that was what I remember to be agreed in the thread that removed resistance to durability negation of Saitama

Edit: Found it

It seems like it's talking about something like superhuman internal durability, right? If I'm not mistaken, it's never shown that their internal durability equals their external durability, even if it says superhuman in Dragon Ball many humans and even aliens are shown to still be affected by it, even including being blown up from within their bodies even when they can control Ki to a certain degree. Even superhumans like Krillin and aliens like Cui are still affected by it, humans like Spopovich even when he became superhuman thanks to Babidi's Sorcery Manipulation are still affected by certain types of Durability Negation, even if Vegito hadn't chosen to inhibit/block Buu's movements inside his body, he could have exploded, honestly I might agree with limited resistance or maybe indexing it to a certain type (full resistance).

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Eh, I forgot about this part, it seems like it was never shown? That's why I counted it as something Broly himself had, which I guess Goku and Vegeta should be able to do, and maybe other Saiyans too.

Thing is, if these attacks worked on anyone it'd raise the question why Vegeta just doesn't Dirty Fireworks every antagonist he fights or the other way around. Even Freeza by the ToP has shown he can induce internal explosions via pressure point strikes that inject Ki into the target and explode them. And Broly has no real special reason to have a resistance to internal attacks, especially given how unremarkable Saiyan physiology generally is in Dragon Ball's setting (beyond things like their AD and Super Saiyan that is).

To me it would be most consistent if Ki were treated as reinforcing their internal durability as well. Which does not contradict the fact that they can target internal structures, they clearly have the feats for it.

Regardless the basic proposition of moves like Dirty Fireworks, Death Psycho Bomb, etc counting as Durability Negation is pretty clear.

 

[MrTayman616]

I think they can be explained a little better.

Like Babidi's ability. While it's using Magic, it is actually an ability that manipulates blood. Saying Durability Negation(Magic) isn't wrong, but it makes it look like you need to resist the magic even though it's not really necessary here. Resisting Blood Manipulation or being able to control your body to some degree would make you able to survive against it.

Something like Blood Manipulation&Durability Negation(Magic) should be better imo.

Vegeta and Frieza's ability could be explained a little better here as all we see is them making someone explode without any context or explanation. Because it can easily change these being durability negation, or changing the type of the durabilty negation as well.

Same for Gogeta as what he does isn't simply ignoring durability via energy manipulation. He uses it to make an explosion inside the body. The energy itself doesn't ignore durability here. It bypasses the external durability via it's location being inside the body, aka internal. So it should be Durability Negation(Internal) or Durability Negation(Energy&Internal).

Not sure if Broly's resistance be against "Energy" or him having high internal durability. Though energy makes more sense i guess since the explosion did happen and went outside his body. I don't think it would happen like that if it was a case of high internal durability.

 

[Da3ggman]

Idk where the idea that organs are 100000x less strong than your skin or some shit came from and they crumble to dust when touched, but they're made of mostly the same stuff. It just so happens that they're a lot more complex than the stuff on the outside; like, if you cut a 3mm into your skin, you're gonna say "owwwieee", slap a bandaid on it and move on. If you get a 3mm cut on your heart, you're gonna say "owwwieee" and ******* die in a few minutes.

They're also a lot more vital than your outsides, so it sort of negates traditional durability by allowing you to kill an opponent faster than you would otherwise if you had just hit them traditionally. It's kinda weird tho

 

[KLOL506]

My take is that yes, attacking internal structures does count as outright Durability Negation. Defining it as just limited doesn't really make sense when the page lists it as the number one example of Durability Negation.

And like Chariot said, the page is wrong if it calls it Dura Neg flat out instead of just "limited", but I guess we can just wait for his Staff thread to clarify it.

 

[Vietthai96]

sign, like, nobody care about this thing..........until Dragon Ball