Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[XDragnoir]

And that, even if not for the last point, her power up to doubles after each absorption

Do you have this statement at hand?

But yeah, it seems the whole deal with scaling Salome and Railgun to Yuiitsu will have to change (as well as Mikoto's own inner scaling).

 

[DontTalkDT]

Do you have this statement at hand?

Logic based on how the power works, not a statement.
Like, when I say "if not for the last point" then I mean we are in a scenario where the power needed to destroy a weapon is (at least) equal to the power of the weapon.
Salome's power works by getting the power of the weapon she destroys.
So if Salome has currently x power, she can at best destroy a weapon with x durability.
That weapon, by the assumption, would then have (at most) x AP.
After destroying it Salome gets the power of the weapon added to her own. That's the initial x power she had + the x power of the weapon. x+x = 2x.
So it doubles.

 

[XDragnoir]

So if Salome has currently x power, she can at best destroy a weapon with x durability.
That weapon, by the assumption, would then have (at most) x AP.

No? Weapons can have more AP than their durability, why would their AP be limited to the value of their dura?

 

[DontTalkDT]

No? Weapons can have more AP than their durability, why would their AP be limited to the value of their dura?

Yes... that's what I was saying:

Like, is the idea that 5 of Misaka's attacks are absorbed, so each of those are 1/5th of her final strength or something? Salome had a chain going before she started absorbing Misaka's attacks. And she can potentially gain more power from a weapon than she needs to destroy it (AP ≠ dura). And that, even if not for the last point, her power up to doubles after each absorption, meaning her power could be up to 2^5 times what it was before the first absorption if she absorbs 5 attacks, not up to 5 times.

I was making three points:

1. The 1/5th interpretation doesn't make sense, because we don't know it was 5 weapons she absorbed before.
2. Even if we ignore 1, it makes no sense as there is no upper boundary on how much her power could have potentially have increased per absorbed weapon.
3. Even if we ignore 2, and assumed an upper boundary on the increase via durability = AP, the calculation of 1/5th would still not hold as it would be 2^5 instead.

I was just making points ahead of time for the case someone is of the opinion that one of the points doesn't hold.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yes... that's what I was saying:

I was making three points:

1. The 1/5th interpretation doesn't make sense, because we don't know it was 5 weapons she absorbed before.
2. Even if we ignore 1, it makes no sense as there is no upper boundary on how much her power could have potentially have increased per absorbed weapon.
3. Even if we ignore 2, and assumed an upper boundary on the increase via durability = AP, the calculation of 1/5th would still not hold as it would be 2^5 instead.

I was just making points ahead of time for the case someone is of the opinion that one of the points doesn't hold.

I guess I understood it now.

I was confused because you said the AP would be "at most x AP"

But yeah, I agree with you.

 

[XDragnoir]

[TOARU] Alice Anotherbible's Resistances Strikes Back

For those that haven't been following up, a former CRT had Alice's resistance to all forms of internal damage in the series already accepted. Then a second one was created to properly list which abilities would be resisted. What's been agreed upon (from the first thread) is that all internal...

vsbattles.com

 

[Churronzon]

So to start off, how's the Qliphah scaling going lol

“A demon who is tangled around the very Sephiroth which makes you special, devours it, infects it, and consumes its functions would be your greatest enemy. …And there is one, isn’t there? A demon who appeared from the Qliphoth, the inverted tree which gathers all the world’s injustice and vice, broke the seal when Adam and Eve were driven out, and finally managed to bite at the Sephiroth! A demon so powerful he was reduced to an imperfect form in the current world!!”

[...]

“I create an atmosphere of war, disturb the regulated order, and inspire conflict between people. I may be an imitation, artificial, and false, but on a more basic level…I am still the kind of demon who devours the tree that is this world.”

[...]

Just take a look at my name: Qliphah Puzzle 545. I too am a demon who lurks in the colossal tree. Although for me it’s the inverted tree that gathers all the unclean symbols. So I already contain the same traits and value as the serpent of the multiplying heads. I have it all!”

“Hidden in one of the great trees that acts as a diagram of the world, a supernatural being, a usurper of knowledge, and a demon...

[...]

“Picture it. Summon within yourself the Beast of Revelation, the monster gnawing on the great tree. Beast and serpent and dragon and demon are one and the same, thus there is no boundary between you and he.”

The spell Coronzon almost created when she was panicking to counter Qliphah was too powerful to use without shattering Adikalika, but MFS and sparks used onscreen against Touma and Magic Gods aren't.

Coronzon spread her wings wide and tangled together countless long blonde hairs like a spiderweb to form a complex magic circle…and then stopped. She had been in such a hurry that the spell she formed was too powerful. This would cause Adikalika to burst and return to nothing.

(Damn, I wasted 1.5 seconds on this!!)

So while holding herself back with wings spread, Coronzon whispered to her opponent.

Obviously super-effective modifiers can take place in Toaru where mythological counters are prioritized but want thoughts on how it affects tiering placements

 

[XDragnoir]

So to start off, how's the Qliphah scaling going lol

She didn’t transform so idk, not sure we should even bother with it beyond adding an "unknown" to her profile at best.

The spell Coronzon almost created when she was panicking to counter Qliphah was too powerful to use without shattering Adikalika, but MFS and sparks used onscreen against Touma and Magic Gods aren't.

I wouldn't say that's really a basis for scaling, the spell to counter Qliphah was casted in a hurry, meaning it likely was leaking magic power or some other form of instability, rather than the released spell itself being stronger than the others.

 

[Churronzon]

I'm more interested in documenting the lore of the Leviathan that she's turning into in the general wiki anyways, but I don't know where to start lol

As told in the Fourth Knowledge Lecture: Eve, being tempted by the fruit of the Tree, let go of the pillars which she was supporting and reached down to take it. As a result everything was shattered. Adam and Eve fell, giving opportunity for the Great Red Dragon—who was previously contained—to arise and desecrate the four rivers. In the following image we see the result of this: Eve is now up to her neck in the world of the shells, where the Dragon was previously, and Adam has fallen to Yesod and Malkuth. The Dragon’s heads reach up and consume all of the lower sephiroth. The world of the Supernals is protected by the Flaming Sword and the Divine Name, YHVH. This, in concise form, is the legend of the Fall according to the Golden Dawn.

 

[Churronzon]

So was Coronzon buffed by mixing with Aleister's symbols rather than just an adaptation to Clonoth? As in how it pertains to Coronzon not caring that Niang-Niang is massively buffed by Nephthys when she had previously caused Coronzon injuries on her own. Would this version of Coronzon not form a pair of equal power with Magic Gods while the NT22 version would?

Even if they overturned the toy box, could they really find something with equal power to her that
would form a pair with her?
[...]
I do not think the Magic Gods we have seen would form
a clean pair with Great Demon Coronzon.

“Heh heh. Out of respect for the Count of Glenstrae, perhaps I should call it the Ceremony
of Mo Athair. At any rate, I am only interested in making progress on my own objective.”

Each of Coronzon’s attacks was ridiculously powerful, but she was not trying to kill Niang-
Niang here.

-NT22

“I’m not here to fulfill your final request. I’m planning on killing billions after this. I can’t give individuals too much attention. It’s a waste of resources.”

-GT13

 

[XDragnoir]

I'm more interested in documenting the lore of the Leviathan that she's turning into in the general wiki anyways, but I don't know where to start lol

I thought you were talking about her scaling in the other post?

 

[Churronzon]

Yeah, but if you're not interested then I have to drop it and focus on the lore instead (which I care more about anyways). If you don't care about the powerscaling nor esotericism in the new volume, we could talk about the greatest Kihara yet. maybe we can make that Kihara Family profile

Edit: I started making it and gave up after trying to figure out how old Academy City and the Kihara Family is. I don't know when it was founded and the series is always in "current year" despite only 6 months progressing in the past 20 irl years.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, but if you're not interested then I have to drop it and focus on the lore instead (which I care more about anyways). If you don't care about the powerscaling nor esotericism in the new volume, we could talk about the greatest Kihara yet. maybe we can make that Kihara Family profile

I mean, do whatever you want, I was just pointing out that Qliphah's transformation has no conclusive scaling that we can index.

 

[Churronzon]

Qliphah's transformation has no conclusive scaling that we can index.

Not even planet level for scaling relative to Coronzon and being more a threat than the Magic Gods were?

 

[Piamma]

Would this version of Coronzon not form a pair of equal power with Magic Gods while the NT22 version would?

There is a strong possibility that she (Coronzon) is even more powerful than the Magic Gods from NT Volume 22.
First, the apparent contradiction of Accelerator defeating Nephthys using the Clonoth Tree has been resolved.
This is because it has been revealed that Nephthys's amplification magic is a high-level art of a completely different caliber.

Furthermore, individual Magic Gods, even without using Nephthys's amplification magic, are capable of fighting a full-power alice and the Nt's Coronzon to the extent that they are merely toying with them.

Therefore, if it's true that Coronzon in her current state has defeated two Magic Gods, then it is correct to say that, at least at this point in time, she is an entity that no other character can possibly stand against.

 

[Churronzon]

Wonder why Kamachi decided to portray her like this until now when he made all the statements that fit this portrayal back in NT22

If we have to jumpjutsu Coronzon, we're not getting the Demon King until GT22

 

[XDragnoir]

There is a strong possibility that she (Coronzon) is even more powerful than the Magic Gods from NT Volume 22.
First, the apparent contradiction of Accelerator defeating Nephthys using the Clonoth Tree has been resolved.
This is because it has been revealed that Nephthys's amplification magic is a high-level art of a completely different caliber.

What contradiction are you talking about exactly? I don't think any contradiction was raised by Accel defeating Nephthys, if it was then I don't know what it is.

Unless you're talking about heavily downgrading Nephthys non-amplification stats (such as her physical stats or her water blade spell) or something like this.

Furthermore, individual Magic Gods, even without using Nephthys's amplification magic, are capable of fighting a full-power alice and the Nt's Coronzon to the extent that they are merely toying with them.

You're saying this based on what exactly? Because GT12 clearly estabilishes that Alice at full power would easily beat the MGs.

Therefore, if it's true that Coronzon in her current state has defeated two Magic Gods, then it is correct to say that, at least at this point in time, she is an entity that no other character can possibly stand against.

I don't think Coronzon got stronger per si, but rather that she demonstrated more of her powers as the context of the fights in NT22 and GT13 were different, if the fight with Niang-Niang had been shown we could then conclude something different.

I am saying this especially because Coronzon ultimately only used unimpressive new spells or the ones we already knew.

Not even planet level for scaling relative to Coronzon and being more a threat than the Magic Gods were?

Threat level in Toaru doesn't really directly correlate itself to power level.

Especially because the quotes you provided that talk about Qliphah's transformation never really mention an increase in power (and personally, I also don't think being a higher threat than the MGs is a straightforward conclusion like you're selling it to be).

Wonder why Kamachi decided to portray her like this until now when he made all the statements that fit this portrayal back in NT22

If we have to jumpjutsu Coronzon, we're not getting the Demon King until GT22

Coronzon is the Black Beard of Toaru, on screen Coronzon is unimpressive but she gets lots and lots of hype from statements and surrounding context and then being impressive in off screen moments.

 

[Piamma]

You're saying this based on what exactly?

Tears of the Radio. In other words, a boost in true ability.
The power of a Magic God, already one of the strongest, is genuinely drawn out by another Magic God.
Amplification, multiplication, augmentation, intensification. Words like these are not enough to describe it.
This is on a completely different level from the mischief they were up to before in a certain student dormitory.

The author described the Magic Gods, at the time of their fight with Alice, as being at a level of "mischief".

And where in GT Volume 12 does it say that Alice can easily kill the Magic Gods?

 

[Piamma]

What contradiction are you talking about exactly? I don't think any contradiction was raised by Accel defeating Nephthys, if it was then I don't know what it is.

Unless you're talking about heavily downgrading Nephthys non-amplification stats (such as her physical stats or her water blade spell) or something like this.

Conversely, since Nephthys' amplification is excessively advanced magic, it makes sense that Accelerator defeated her.
Judging solely by Accelerator's performances in GT, he wasn't even close to being a Transcendents, let alone a Coronzon-level power

 

[Felience1]

Conversely, since Nephthys' amplification is excessively advanced magic, it makes sense that Accelerator defeated her.
Judging solely by Accelerator's performances in GT, he wasn't even close to being a Transcendents, let alone a Coronzon-level power

Didn´t Accelerator only lost because Trismegistus was boosted by Alice´s winds? The Prob and fate manip.

 

[Felience1]

And where in GT Volume 12 does it say that Alice can easily kill the Magic Gods?

"Perhaps she could have done this differently if she were alone and only trying to achieve victory. By distorting the scene and the world around her. But the girl was instead holding out her little hands and keeping the paint wall active so she could keep Academy City from being obliterated by the blast produced by the Magic Gods."

"She had the look of someone who had moved to the back. That is, who was prepared to let someone else finish this. To reiterate, if all she wanted to do was kill, Alice could have ended this much faster on her own. It was a complete mystery whether the Magic Gods or the Transcendent would survive, so she couldn’t afford any games or detours here."

I have not read GT13 yet btw. only giving info of GT12. But it really looks like she was holding back to not distort the world.

 

[XDragnoir]

The author described the Magic Gods, at the time of their fight with Alice, as being at a level of "mischief".

And where in GT Volume 12 does it say that Alice can easily kill the Magic Gods?

Felience already answered the 2nd part, but the first one seems like a pretty pointless remark, Alice wasn't even in her inner form, much less her adult form, during the fight with the MGs, so no one there was at full power.

Conversely, since Nephthys' amplification is excessively advanced magic, it makes sense that Accelerator defeated her.
Judging solely by Accelerator's performances in GT, he wasn't even close to being a Transcendents, let alone a Coronzon-level power

Okay but what exactly are you trying to get at with this? Should we downgrade Accel or downgrade Nephthys? Are you arguing for something other than a downgrade?

As for Accel's performance... I think that's kind of flawed, Accel also fought Coronzon during NT22, his very first attack sent Coronzon flying and later on he pushed her back with a punch even tho she used her hair to block it, and that's Accel before the Clonoth.

If all his feats were against Nephthys then I could agree with you, but he matched Coronzon in CQC and matched her in "magic" when he achieved PW, the same PW that had statements about matching or surpassing the MGs in general, not just Nephthys.

All in all, I really don't see how Accel wouldn't be at this level, especially if Trismegistus had to resort to cutting his connection to the Misaka Network to defeat him.

 

[Churronzon]

Speaking of Clonoth, it's funny that Kamachi made her immune to it this time. Because like, even if she wasn't, was Accel's soulrip something he could perform again? Or is it just an excuse for Kamachi to have Accel not leave the prison cell or to be a jobber

 

[XDragnoir]

Speaking of Clonoth, it's funny that Kamachi made her immune to it this time. Because like, even if she wasn't, was Accel's soulrip something he could perform again? Or is it just an excuse for Kamachi to have Accel not leave the prison cell or to be a jobber

Accel did it from far away the last time, he removed it to not have Accel winning the fight without even being there.

I didn't like the reason behind the soul removal failing tho.

 

[Piamma]

"Perhaps she could have done this differently if she were alone and only trying to achieve victory. By distorting the scene and the world around her. But the girl was instead holding out her little hands and keeping the paint wall active so she could keep Academy City from being obliterated by the blast produced by the Magic Gods."

"She had the look of someone who had moved to the back. That is, who was prepared to let someone else finish this. To reiterate, if all she wanted to do was kill, Alice could have ended this much faster on her own. It was a complete mystery whether the Magic Gods or the Transcendent would survive, so she couldn’t afford any games or detours here."

That's a completely wrong

If it were merely a matter of killing, Alice would have endured the unnecessary pain.
Supporting from behind. In other words, with the face of a person prepared to leave the outcome to others. I'll say it again and again: if it were just about killing, Alice could handle it much faster alone. As long as it remains completely unknown whether the 『Magicgod』 or the 『Transcendent』 will survive, she too would have no room for games or detours.


The Transcendent referred to in the text is Alice.
When it says killing is simple, it doesn't mean Alice could easily kill the two who drank it—it means she could choose a method that makes fighting easier.

It clearly states that it's uncertain whether Magicgod or Transcendent will survive, so I find it hard to understand how this could be interpreted as Alice being able to easily kill both of them.

 

[Piamma]

Okay but what exactly are you trying to get at with this? Should we downgrade Accel or downgrade Nephthys? Are you arguing for something other than a downgrade?

Both are slightly different from what I intended to say.
I'm saying that defeating Nephthys in the Accelerator's clonoth achievements should be removed from the solo accomplishments.
Now that the variable of Nephthys's boost has been revealed to a certain extent, it's hard to consider defeating her using that boost as one's pure spec.

 

[XDragnoir]

Both are slightly different from what I intended to say.
I'm saying that defeating Nephthys in the Accelerator's clonoth achievements should be removed from the solo accomplishments.
Now that the variable of Nephthys's boost has been revealed to a certain extent, it's hard to consider defeating her using that boost as one's pure spec.

I don't think she was boosting herself during their fight? If she was, she'd be even stronger, which just means the feat is even better than we originally thought, but why can't she be defeated with "pure specs"?

 

[Piamma]

I don't think she was boosting herself during their fight? If she was, she'd be even stronger, which just means the feat is even better than we originally thought, but why can't she be defeated with "pure specs"?

There's never been any mention that Nephthys' tears can strengthen her own self.

The one boosted in that battle was Qliphah Puzzle
Even in GT13, she sang “I'll cry for you” to boost Niang-Niang, not to strengthen herself.
If she could strengthen herself, wouldn't she have already done so?

If we were to scrutinize every unconfirmed inference,
the same logic applies to Coronzon
Despite being able to wield the Flaming Sword, Coronzon was beaten to a pulp by the infinitely weakened Magicgod.

 

[XDragnoir]

There's never been any mention that Nephthys' tears can strengthen her own self.

The one boosted in that battle was Qliphah Puzzle
Even in GT13, she sang “I'll cry for you” to boost Niang-Niang, not to strengthen herself.
If she could strengthen herself, wouldn't she have already done so?

If we were to scrutinize every unconfirmed inference,
the same logic applies to Coronzon
Despite being able to wield the Flaming Sword, Coronzon was beaten to a pulp by the infinitely weakened Magicgod.

You focused in the wrong part of my quote. I didn't say she could strengthen herself, I literally started by saying "I don't think she can do it". I was simply explaining that your point doesn't seem to add up, why she using the boost somehow invalidates Accel's feats if she wasn't even using it on herself?

Anyway, you didn't answer my actual question, why can't nephthys be defeated by pure specs?

 

[Piamma]

You focused in the wrong part of my quote. I didn't say she could strengthen herself, I literally started by saying "I don't think she can do it". I was simply explaining that your point doesn't seem to add up, why she using the boost somehow invalidates Accel's feats if she wasn't even using it on herself?

Anyway, you didn't answer my actual question, why can't nephthys be defeated by pure specs?

Why can't it be recognized as a solo achievement?
Because Nephthys' amplification is a one-time effect, not a permanent one.

For that reason, I'll lend you my power/return, a thought form without brainwaves/return.
If that brown hag amplifies your power and channels it into the sinner, let's make the job a bit more fun/return.
From now on, it's not a rampage/return.
Refine it neatly, channeling the optimal power as if pushing the sinner's back!

At the time, the accelerator was even utilizing the amplification from the Qliphah Puzzle.

Let's consider another similar example.
Even if Birdway uses a one-time Gungnir with Index's assistance, is that considered part of her pure stats?

 

[XDragnoir]

Why can't it be recognized as a solo achievement?
Because Nephthys' amplification is a one-time effect, not a permanent one.

For that reason, I'll lend you my power/return, a thought form without brainwaves/return.
If that brown hag amplifies your power and channels it into the sinner, let's make the job a bit more fun/return.
From now on, it's not a rampage/return.
Refine it neatly, channeling the optimal power as if pushing the sinner's back!

At the time, the accelerator was even utilizing the amplification from the Qliphah Puzzle.

Let's consider another similar example.
Even if Birdway uses a one-time Gungnir with Index's assistance, is that considered part of her pure stats?

That doesn’t matter because Accel didn’t use Qliphah's power to attack Nephthys.

Nephthys amped Qliphah, Qliphah got the control back and gave the Tarot cards knowledge to Accelerator, Accelerator used it to control a type of energy spread around the world to create a spear to attack Nephthys.

Qliphah being amped has no influence in Accel's power output as he used his vector abilities + new knowledge to finish Nephthys.

I think our understanding of what "pure stats" means isn't the same, it would be better if you switched it to "situational AP" or something similar next time, as it's better to convey what I think you mean.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

[Toaru] Mid Tier Profile Rework

Hey, hey, fanta here. Toaru CRT here. No idea if it was just better for me to do nothing or not considering how messy Toaru profiles are... but this fanta figures she should focus on helping out the verse by fixing up a few issues... By revamping profiles, yay! Gabriel Old | New Changes Catalog...

vsbattles.com

Hey, hey, fanta here. Made a new CRT to revamp Saint tier profile, ig. Give a glance, and say any suggestions or ideas that you think can make the profile better.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Honestly wished the Magic Gods got upgraded. to a really high tier low-key.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Honestly wished the Magic Gods got upgraded. to a really high tier low-key.

Pretty sure one could make the argument of Aleister having a Big Bang Bomb (that 100% has the power of a Big Bang) + him admitting he can't do crud against them w/o the A.A.A and Aiwass + the Magic Gods literally having nothing to stop Aleister from casting the BBB nor any resistances to protect them from said BBB to upgrade 'em to High 3-A. I think.

 

[Churronzon]

Did we ever come up with an explanation for why Gabriel suddenly started noselling Curtana?

All eyes were on the two as they rushed at the archangel, burying their swords into the
mass of frozen wings. In an instant, Misha came impossibly close to the verge of death,
as the two’s blades cleaved through her countless wings like lawn-mowers cutting
through grass.

[...]

A moment earlier Curtana and Durendal had been cutting through the frozen wings of
death, and now they could not even scratch the palm of the archangel’s hands. The two
blades had been stopped completely. Misha slowly turned, and her eyeless sockets
seemed to stare at Carissa.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Did we ever come up with an explanation for why Gabriel suddenly started noselling Curtana?

This, i.e, Curtana just ran into a compatibility issue that rendered it unable to cut Gabby's body, I suppose. I just listed it as '''Limited Invulnerability''' in my profile revamp.

Edit: Carissa was also using a shard of Curtana Second at that point, so that additionally might be a reason why that happened.

 

[Churronzon]

alright

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Zup. CRT is taking a bit of time, so, I... made a revamp for Mugino. And Kakine and Gunha, but I think a few more things need to be done before I show 'em off to everyone

FantaRin The First/Sandbox Dot Four

vsbattles.fandom.com

Added a bunch of scans and references to "everything", revamped Mugino's intelligence section, changed her Standard Equipment, changed her stats with Meltdowner and her physicals (with the latter being done once I finish revamping the nesscary CRT and profiles needed to remove 7-A physical stats). Tell me what'cha think, and you guys think on what can be done or added to improve Mugino's profile revamp.

 

[Churronzon]

YOU MADE HER UGLY

GO BACK TO HER PREVIOUS RENDER

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

YOU MADE HER UGLY

GO BACK TO HER PREVIOUS RENDER

Lol. Done.