DELTARUNE; Chapter 3 & 4 !!!SPOILER!!! Discussion Thread

[Comiphorous]

That should NOT apply.

We have no canonical evidence the Knight has 0 DEF, because to see the Knight has 0 DEF, you have to go into the files directly; Normally, seeing stats is done via CHECK, but....

• [Check]
  • Kris analyzed the enemy!
  • But Kris couldn't learn anything.
• [Check, subsequent uses]
  • Kris points into the distance.
  • Nothing happened.

Given we have no info on The Knight's ATK nor DEF that the audience is meant to have access to, we should not treat it as having 0 DEF, because we specifically aren't given info on what its DEF is.

Also, yes, its actual in-game DEF is 0, but besides that we, the audience, aren't given access to that info, in-game stats often differ from CHECK Stats.
For example, Rudinn:

For example:

Ponman

Ponman (plural Ponmen) is a Darkner enemy in Card Kingdom that appears at the Great Board. They are based on pawns from chess. They resemble the Dark Ponman hazards that appear in Forest and Card Castle.

deltarune.wiki

DF​

• 1 (Actual)
• 0 (Check)
• 5 (Recruit)

The Actual DEF you have to go into the games to find can differ from the stats shown in CHECK with many enemies.

Many Chapter 1 enemies are listed with 5 DEF in the Recruit info for some reason, but Recruit also feels BARELY more lore-relevant, since it gives not only a description & stats listing like CHECK does, but it also gives Element, Level & Likes & Dislikes.

So we have that info from RECRUIT we can consider for many.


Personally, while I believe The Knight is very strong & potentially quite intelligent, my stance is The Knight is more or less 5 times superior to The Delta Warriors, but can not casually one-shot them.
Reasons include:
1. When The Knight takes over 100 damage in a single hit, it will yelp & its form will destabilize, neither of which it does when taking less than 100 damage. This is normally not audible when Rude Buster hits it, but it can be heard otherwise, such as from Kris, who hits harder the more party members are down, indicating Kris can harm The Knight when not holding back, & so can Rude Buster.
2. Even against Susie & Ralsei (Ralsei may have to DEFEND.), none of The Knight's attacks can OHKO them in a single hit. Tracking Swords, despite being meant as very hard hitting moves, can have 1 hit survived by Susie for example, without her even Defending; It takes multiple hits to DOWN them, so it's not a "casual one-shot".
3. SWOON behaves more like a status condition. Besides negative HP setting not aligning to damage dealt to go DOWN in general throughout Deltarune, which puts into question that it does 999 damage only when it DOWNs them yet doesn't when it hits them while they're UP, SWOON also prevents their passive regeneration.
4. Rotating Slashes 3/"Your heart becomes twisted" is made to be unavoidable by being in both Phase 3 & Phase 4 in case the party lowers its HP very fast, & featurs the Knight spamming slashes in its animation.
5. If The Knight could casually one-shot them, why would it bother to spend a turn charging up an attack as it does?
6. The ending of the fight suggests it knocked them out in the cutscene because The Light Warriors' guards were down. Consider this dialogue when The Knight is 1 hit from defeat (& it wasn't no hit.):

• The enemy suddenly let down its guard! [After using its final attack]

After the fight, it SWOONS Susie while she's busy taunting & laughing & then Ralsei when he's in shock looking at what was just done to Susie. Ergo, taken down when the enemy let down its guard. The Knight's ending dialogue establishes that when someone's guard is let down, that's an opportunity to DOWN them, & that's how it takes down Susie & Ralsei.
Not to mention, they just finished a fight that was so arduous Susie couldn't believe they won. (& if The Knight was faking having its guard down, or faking its destabilization, that could support this being a way to get their guards down.)

7. Although The Knight's HP is displayed as ??? & we aren't shown its ATK & DEF, we are shown its health bar; We can infer from how much can be depleted how comparable The Delta Warriors are. (In game, it's about 20% of its max HP, which aligns with the damage reduction starting at damage reduced to 20%, with 1% of damage doable being regained per turn.)

8. As soon as a substitute for Toriel (Undyne) shows up, The Knight takes that & leaves.

9. The Knight spends most of Chapter 4 attacking while avoiding direct confrontation. Breaking stairs Susie could use to approach it, attacking them while they're climbing, attacking them while they can't see it in pitch darkness, summoning a Titan to fight them.

Sorry if anyone minds the long post.

TL;DR - The Knight having 0 DEF isn't something the audience is shown, our standards say we should use, I advocate for scaling it as about 5x superior to The Delta Warriors because of its visible Health Bar depletion & initial 20% Damage Reduction, also The Knight cannot "casually one-shot" The Delta Warriors even though it is very strong & unironically, truly & genuinely is not a fraud.

Imaginym watching in horror as everyone readies the funny shayy image

 

[StrymULTRA]

TL;DR - The Knight having 0 DEF isn't something the audience is shown, our standards say we should use, I advocate for scaling it as about 5x superior to The Delta Warriors because of its visible Health Bar depletion & initial 20% Damage Reduction, also The Knight cannot "casually one-shot" The Delta Warriors even though it is very strong & unironically, truly & genuinely is not a fraud.

Stat scaling for Deltarune is so much more convoluted than it was for undertale because what do you mean Rudinn technically scales to the titan because without it's defense it has 0 DEF

 

[Imaginym]

Imaginym watching in horror as everyone readies the funny shayy image

Jokes on you, I don't know what that image is, nor what it means.

Also, 10th reason I forgot: The Knight escalates its attacks with each having like, 3 stages.
Unless it's doing that just to put on a display to demoralize them through escalating the attacks in the hopes they think the earlier variations are too much so seeing it can use more intense versions makes The Delta Warriors give up.....

That is not casual behaviour to go through fighting someone & continuously having to use stronger versions of your attacks; If it was casual, in theory, the stronger variants wouldn't be needed.

 

[Comiphorous]

Jokes on you, I don't know what that image is, nor what it means.

 

[Imaginym]

Message contained only quotings.

Dangit, did I typo in my TL;DR?
Should be
"TL;DR - The Knight having 0 DEF isn't something the audience is shown, our standards say we should not use that."

Edited to fix that.

Oh right, that meme that's a shameful promotion of illiteracy & ignorance. Hate that intensely, & I despise the notion of using it as an excuse for such things.
Thanks for clarifying, though.

 

[Comiphorous]

Dangit, did I typo in my TL;DR?
Should be
"TL;DR - The Knight having 0 DEF isn't something the audience is shown, our standards say we should not use that."

so like how does The Titan's 0 DEF fit into this because that is shown and it technically means mfs like the Fraud King is more durable than a literal Titan when it's defense is down and i don't like the implications of that for this site cuz i don't wanna see solar system level king or some bullshit like that.

 

[Imaginym]

so like how does The Titan's 0 DEF fit into this because that is shown and it technically means mfs like the Fraud King is more durable than a literal Titan when it's defense is down and i don't like the implications of that for this site cuz i don't wanna see solar system level king or some bullshit like that.

DF​

• 800 (Check, Normal)
• 0 (Check, Vulnerable)
• 0 (Actual)

When its defense is up, it has crazy high DEF of 800.
When its defenses are down, it has 0.
The Actual value isn't meant to be seen by the player (Speaking about "Actual" values in general; You can still see it having 0 DEF in actual gameplay in the case of this enemy, The Titan & its CHECK.), just like The Knight's Actual DEF since you have to go into the files for that, but said Actual value isn't visible in gameplay.

Beyond that, The Titan has a gimmick of using UNLEASH to remove its shield & then attacking it.
We could simply dismiss this instance of 0 DEF in the CHECK as an instance of Game Mechanics, because it's seen when the player is meant, by the game's design, to be attacking The Titan. It has 0 DEF as the dev's way of screaming "HEY, NOW'S YOUR CHANCE! The thing that was taking like, no damage from your attacks before is now vulnerable! Now you can do a heckload of damage!".

Alternatively, if you're particularly pessimistic & aren't willing to dismiss it individually on the grounds of Game Mechanics as above, you could use this as argument for disregarding CHECK stats (Though I'd still think CHECK statements should stay, personally.) in general.

Hope this is helpful, appreciable & or not bothering.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Rudinn technically scales to the titan because without it's defense it has 0 DEF

What stat of Rudinn would scale to it? Not durability, since even without shield Titan can withstand far more damage than Rudinn(and Titan can regenerate both shield and HP).
And overall this complaint sounds strange. If you destroy main defensive thing character has going on, it obviously would lover it's durability significantly. Would street tier character scale to Black Panther if they can beat him without his vibranium suit?

 

[Qurbonboev]

We could simply dismiss this instance of 0 DEF in the CHECK as an instance of Game Mechanics

It's better conceptualised as it's weakness:"if you can destroy it's shield you can actually inflict significant damage to it". And destroying it isn't even possibe without Soul (even Gerson can't do it without us, and he is one of strongest characters in the game).

so like how does The Titan's 0 DEF fit into this because that is shown and it technically means mfs like the Fraud King is more durable than a literal Titan when it's defense is down and i don't like the implications of that for this site cuz i don't wanna see solar system level king or some bullshit like that.

DC Humans don't get scaled to Superman, due to them being stronger than Superman under cryptonite. Same way Deltarune characters shouldn't get scaled to Titan, due to them being more durable than Titan without shield. And destroying it's shield is much more difficult task than procuring cryptonite in DC. Only Soul(2-B character, btw) can do it.
I am not into solar system Titan(I would scale it at city level for now), but "you lose all your durability, if attacked with light of Soul" is hardly anti-feat for it

 

[Imaginym]

It's better conceptualised as it's weakness:"if you can destroy it's shield you can actually inflict significant damage to it". And destroying it isn't even possibe without Soul (even Gerson can't do it without us, and he is one of strongest characters in the game).

Yeah, I agree, that would be the kind of reasoning to use on the profile. I was just providing argument against using The Titan having 0 DEF in its CHECK (When its shield is down.) as basis to scale it to like, Rudinn or whatever. It's listed as 0 to facilitate gameplay, because the boss has a "Get its shield down, THEN attack it." gimmick, not because Ponman is more durable than the Titan.

DC Humans don't get scaled to Superman, due to them being stronger than Superman under cryptonite. Same way Deltarune characters shouldn't get scaled to Titan, due to them being more durable than Titan without shield. And destroying it's shield is much more difficult task than procuring cryptonite in DC. Only Soul(2-B character, btw) can do it.
I am not into solar system Titan(I would scale it at city level for now), but "you lose all your durability, if attacked with light of Soul" is hardly anti-feat for it

FWIW, Kryptonite is external to DC Humans & Kryptonite, though it comprised the material of planet Krypton which Kryptonians inhabit.
Though, true, the SOUL's Light definitely seems quite xternal to The Titan. Arguably antipodal to it, even.

The Titan's shield is ostensibly innate to it, but especially coupled with the Game Mechanics argument, I don't think there's much case to say The Delta Warriors or the like should scale to The Titan for having a DEF of 0 in its CHECK when its shield is down.

BTW, has the SOUL acquired a 2-B rating on officially accepted profiles yet?

 

[Qurbonboev]

BTW, has the SOUL acquired a 2-B rating on officially accepted profiles yet?

I view SOUL as conduit for PLAYER powers, who has 2-B scaling. And even if you didn't buy this, SOUL at least should scale as high as dark fountains(by virtue of sealing them).
I always viewed DEF as measure of resistance against physical and magical resistance. Durability should be combination of DEF and HP. Character A could have higher DEF than Character B, but if Character B has much more health pool, Character B would withstand much more damage, be more durable. Rudinn could have more DEF than Titan with no shield, but due to having massively inferior health pool, it's much less durable. Sadly, we don't have access to lore HP data, same way we do with AT and DEF.
BTW, what is nature of SOUL Light? Is it any Light, or let's say "Holy Light".

 

[Imaginym]

I view SOUL as conduit for PLAYER powers, who has 2-B scaling. And even if you didn't buy this, SOUL at least should scale as high as dark fountains(by virtue of sealing them).
I always viewed DEF as measure of resistance against physical and magical resistance. Durability should be combination of DEF and HP. Character A could have higher DEF than Character B, but if Character B has much more health pool, Character B would withstand much more damage, be more durable. Rudinn could have more DEF than Titan with no shield, but due to having massively inferior health pool, it's much less durable. Sadly, we don't have access to lore HP data, same way we do with AT and DEF.
BTW, what is nature of SOUL Light? Is it any Light, or let's say "Holy Light".

I brought it up earlier some pages back, but in Noelle's house, narrating text about the heart-shaped pillows likens them to a human soul.

I do not remember the exact text, though.

There's also the book in the library, & what Ralsei says in the tutorial. A bit lazy to fetch that info AtM. Sorry.

 

[Kellex]

so like how does The Titan's 0 DEF fit into this because that is shown and it technically means mfs like the Fraud King is more durable than a literal Titan when it's defense is down and i don't like the implications of that for this site cuz i don't wanna see solar system level king or some bullshit like that.

Bro has less DEF than light world Kris lol

 

[Imaginym]

Bro has less DEF than light world Kris lol

FWIW, Light World stats are a bit weird.

The fact that stats have numbers besides them in brackets suggests there's a base number for the stat, & a boost from the equipment, unlike the Dark World, which just totals the stat & doesn't display them in that way for some reason. The result might function the same, but the display is different.
I've also read there's a hidden value in the game of EXP, which, if increased, raises Kris's Light World level.

To say nothing of the name "Kris" being in quotes. What, because the name was decided with a trailing "your name is" followed up only by someone [Toriel] saying "Kris", so the stat menu just took that as the name input?? Or because it's doubted because that's likely not the name given for the vessel/creator. (But I'd be surprised if the quotes are gone if the Vessel is named Kris.)

 

[Qurbonboev]

I've also read there's a hidden value in the game of EXP, which, if increased, raises Kris's Light World level.

I've read that entire Deltarune code related to LOVE is ported to Undertale. So if you get EXP somehow, Light World LW would increase.

To say nothing of the name "Kris" being in quotes.

Same thing in Undertale. Name of Fallen Child(Chara) is in quotes

 

[LittleGuy99]

That should NOT apply.

We have no canonical evidence the Knight has 0 DEF, because to see the Knight has 0 DEF, you have to go into the files directly; Normally, seeing stats is done via CHECK, but....

• [Check]
  • Kris analyzed the enemy!
  • But Kris couldn't learn anything.
• [Check, subsequent uses]
  • Kris points into the distance.
  • Nothing happened.

Given we have no info on The Knight's ATK nor DEF that the audience is meant to have access to, we should not treat it as having 0 DEF, because we specifically aren't given info on what its DEF is.

Also, yes, its actual in-game DEF is 0, but besides that we, the audience, aren't given access to that info, in-game stats often differ from CHECK Stats.
For example, Rudinn:

For example:

Ponman

Ponman (plural Ponmen) is a Darkner enemy in Card Kingdom that appears at the Great Board. They are based on pawns from chess. They resemble the Dark Ponman hazards that appear in Forest and Card Castle.

deltarune.wiki

DF​

• 1 (Actual)
• 0 (Check)
• 5 (Recruit)

The Actual DEF you have to go into the games to find can differ from the stats shown in CHECK with many enemies.

Many Chapter 1 enemies are listed with 5 DEF in the Recruit info for some reason, but Recruit also feels BARELY more lore-relevant, since it gives not only a description & stats listing like CHECK does, but it also gives Element, Level & Likes & Dislikes.

So we have that info from RECRUIT we can consider for many.


Personally, while I believe The Knight is very strong & potentially quite intelligent, my stance is The Knight is more or less 5 times superior to The Delta Warriors, but can not casually one-shot them.
Reasons include:
1. When The Knight takes over 100 damage in a single hit, it will yelp & its form will destabilize, neither of which it does when taking less than 100 damage. This is normally not audible when Rude Buster hits it, but it can be heard otherwise, such as from Kris, who hits harder the more party members are down, indicating Kris can harm The Knight when not holding back, & so can Rude Buster.
2. Even against Susie & Ralsei (Ralsei may have to DEFEND.), none of The Knight's attacks can OHKO them in a single hit. Tracking Swords, despite being meant as very hard hitting moves, can have 1 hit survived by Susie for example, without her even Defending; It takes multiple hits to DOWN them, so it's not a "casual one-shot".
3. SWOON behaves more like a status condition. Besides negative HP setting not aligning to damage dealt to go DOWN in general throughout Deltarune, which puts into question that it does 999 damage only when it DOWNs them yet doesn't when it hits them while they're UP, SWOON also prevents their passive regeneration.
4. Rotating Slashes 3/"Your heart becomes twisted" is made to be unavoidable by being in both Phase 3 & Phase 4 in case the party lowers its HP very fast, & featurs the Knight spamming slashes in its animation.
5. If The Knight could casually one-shot them, why would it bother to spend a turn charging up an attack as it does?
6. The ending of the fight suggests it knocked them out in the cutscene because The Light Warriors' guards were down. Consider this dialogue when The Knight is 1 hit from defeat (& it wasn't no hit.):

• The enemy suddenly let down its guard! [After using its final attack]

After the fight, it SWOONS Susie while she's busy taunting & laughing & then Ralsei when he's in shock looking at what was just done to Susie. Ergo, taken down when the enemy let down its guard. The Knight's ending dialogue establishes that when someone's guard is let down, that's an opportunity to DOWN them, & that's how it takes down Susie & Ralsei.
Not to mention, they just finished a fight that was so arduous Susie couldn't believe they won. (& if The Knight was faking having its guard down, or faking its destabilization, that could support this being a way to get their guards down.)

7. Although The Knight's HP is displayed as ??? & we aren't shown its ATK & DEF, we are shown its health bar; We can infer from how much can be depleted how comparable The Delta Warriors are. (In game, it's about 20% of its max HP, which aligns with the damage reduction starting at damage reduced to 20%, with 1% of damage doable being regained per turn.)

8. As soon as a substitute for Toriel (Undyne) shows up, The Knight takes that & leaves.

9. The Knight spends most of Chapter 4 attacking while avoiding direct confrontation. Breaking stairs Susie could use to approach it, attacking them while they're climbing, attacking them while they can't see it in pitch darkness, summoning a Titan to fight them.

Sorry if anyone minds the long post.

TL;DR - The Knight having 0 DEF isn't something the audience is shown, our standards say we should not use that, I advocate for scaling it as about 5x superior to The Delta Warriors because of its visible Health Bar depletion & initial 20% Damage Reduction, also The Knight cannot "casually one-shot" The Delta Warriors even though it is very strong & unironically, truly & genuinely is not a fraud.

Uhh... He said the Titan not the Knight
And yes, the Titan has 0 DEF when you remove the shield
Edit: I didn't see the other answers.s lmao

 

[Imaginym]

Uhh... He said the Titan not the Knight
And yes, the Titan has 0 DEF when you remove the shield
Edit: I didn't see the other answers.s lmao

My mistake, sorry. I must've been a little sleepy when I typed all that.
Though, for what it's worth, if they shouldn't scale to The Knight they probably shouldn't scale to The Titan, either, lol.
Thanks for answering.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I’m not sure about the Fun Gang not scaling to the Titan, considering they can take a reasonable amount of damage from it unlike with the Knight (the Titan is also mindless so it wouldn’t have any desire or reason to be holding back or anything like that).

When it comes to durability it gets tricky, as its “face” seems to be a weak spot while its mask is a shield for the weak point. Its actual “base” durability for the rest of the body is way higher than its weak point but presumably not higher than the mask. According to the Deltarune wiki the mask has a 50% multiplier for attacks against it, which all things considered isn’t that significant given this is at least as durable as the main body.

IMO the Fun Gang should downscale from the Titan, but not to a significant degree.

 

[Imaginym]

I’m not sure about the Fun Gang not scaling to the Titan, considering they can take a reasonable amount of damage from it unlike with the Knight (the Titan is also mindless so it wouldn’t have any desire or reason to be holding back or anything like that).

When it comes to durability it gets tricky, as its “face” seems to be a weak spot while its mask is a shield for the weak point. Its actual “base” durability for the rest of the body is way higher than its weak point but presumably not higher than the mask. According to the Deltarune wiki the mask has a 50% multiplier for attacks against it, which all things considered isn’t that significant given this is at least as durable as the main body.

IMO the Fun Gang should downscale from the Titan, but not to a significant degree.

Apologies if this is a bit offensive of me, but I was speaking about the notion of characters like Rudinn scaling to The Titan because 0 DEF in CHECK.
IMHO.

I support the idea of The Delta Warriors downscaling.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I just don't wanna see any Darkners (aside from Gerson) scaling to the Titan... It doesn't make sense for a single Darkner to scale to the full force of the Fountain, which gives them and their entire world form

 

[Kellex]

 

[RinneItachi]

"hey kris, check out this attack i just came up with."

Dodges gravity bone slam

"Hey kid...why did you jump?"

 

[DaReaperMan]

"hey kris, check out this attack i just came up with."

Dodges gravity bone slam

"Hey kid...why did you jump?"

Why are you posting quotes and images of public enemy #1

 

[RinneItachi]

Why are you posting quotes and images of public enemy #1

Don't worry we will kill him in Chapter 7.

 

[Qurbonboev]

"hey kris, check out this attack i just came up with."

Dodges gravity bone slam

"Hey kid...why did you jump?"

"Because entity that controls me once tried to genocide everything, and it needed to beat you to accomplish it. Once it was done with you(after memorising all your attacks and patterns), it POWER was used to erase World. Btw, this entity still lust for more fights.
On unrelated note, can you stop dating with my mother, please."

 

[Ti58]

I honestly don't think the Titan should even scale to the dark world. Fountains aren't creating cities or stars molecule by molecule or whatever. What they're doing is removing the light in an area to the point of darkness darker than dark with the photon readings being negative. A new world magically appears in said area as a byproduct of this.

The Titan isn't a dark world. It's the dark fountain that gives the dark world form. That's a big difference.

 

[Imaginym]

I just don't wanna see any Darkners (aside from Gerson) scaling to the Titan... It doesn't make sense for a single Darkner to scale to the full force of the Fountain, which gives them and their entire world form

What about Ralsei? He's a Darkner.

 

[Imaginym]

"hey kris, check out this attack i just came up with."

Dodges gravity bone slam

"Hey kid...why did you jump?"

"Because entity that controls me once tried to genocide everything, and it needed to beat you to accomplish it. Once it was done with you(after memorising all your attacks and patterns), it POWER was used to erase World. Btw, this entity still lust for more fights.
On unrelated note, can you stop dating with my mother, please."

(Sorry for the multiple posts, BTW.)
I'd put it like.... IDK....
"SOUL Trauma. We both hate you."

 

[Imaginym]

I honestly don't think the Titan should even scale to the dark world. Fountains aren't creating cities or stars molecule by molecule or whatever. What they're doing is removing the light in an area to the point of darkness darker than dark with the photon readings being negative. A new world magically appears in said area as a byproduct of this.

The Titan isn't a dark world. It's the dark fountain that gives the dark world form. That's a big difference.

Begrudgingly, I might have to agree. Every time we've seen a Dark Fountain it's constantly spewing darkness.
Though it's unclear if that's creating more Dark World... content or just sustaining what exists.
Queen's plan involved making more DFs to make more DWs/cover the world in Darkness. But dialogue like Shuttah's indicates Dark Worlds can progress, like with the theater being built in TV World, or how Castle Town's Castle was expanded by being dug out.

Can Dark Worlds expand? Is it done so by the fountain adding more Darkness, or by other means?

Though FWIW, Sustainment/Sustenance/Stabilization Feats are a thing.

By Ralsei's explanation, about how once it gets darker than dark, you can begin to "see things again", as well as hear & feel things, that would suggest the stars can at least be heard, seen & felt, but that alone wouldn't prove the stars would be real. In theory, you could get up real close to a star & feel its heat & force, but what if that's another part of the "illusion"?

I'm somewhat skeptic of this because of the prophecy about eternal night growing beneath the Light World, since that might suggests darkness exists in reality & thus Dark Worlds might be more real, & Ralsei's been expositing without all the facts again (Like his first version telling of the prophecy.) either from lacking all the information himself, or having something to hide for some reason.

If we're curious, here are the requirements:

Before a character with a stability feat of sustaining a structure can have the feat accepted and applied to their statistics, it needs to meet the following criteria:

Requirement 1: Specify what exactly is being stabilized so that it is made clear what the character's sustainability is doing precisely.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties, or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.

Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.

& because Creation Feat standards were mentioned, here's that page, too.


Does the Titan meet all 4 Stabilization Feat requirements?
I'm assuming so, since a lot of people are treating it as valid for it to be scaled for Sustaining a Dark World, but that's Appeal to Popularity. (Lol, Fallacy Fallacy.)

 

[Qurbonboev]

What about Ralsei? He's a Darkner.

Ralsei is not normal Darkner, and Grand Fountain is not normal Fountain. So he can definitely be stronger (but not yet) that individual Titan.
It reminded me about Spamton Neo Armor. It's power is from hopes and dreams of Lightner(concretely Mettaton dreams of becoming metrosexual robot). I totally believe that Darkners that can use Lightner powers some way, could be stronger than Fountains/Titan.

Does the Titan meet all 4 Stabilization Feat requirements?

Only problem would be 4 point

 

[Ti58]

That made me actually thing. Why is one of the abilities listed for being able to open dark fountains Creation?
Quote from the Creation page:

Creation is the ability to create something from nothing, without manipulating existing things.

Except... That's not what dark worlds do. They manipulate existing things, not create them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I do agree now that the Titan shouldn't scale to whatever size the Dark Fountains are given that it's not the embodiment of the Dark World but of the Dark Fountain, which is not the same thing, unless every creator suddenly is the embodiment of the things they create.

Plus Darkness isn't even UES unless you wanna argue that LW Kris and Susie are 7-B or 4-A physically.

 

[Ti58]

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties, or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

Dark worlds are sustained by the darker than dark darkness from the fountains.

 

[Imaginym]

That made me actually thing. Why is one of the abilities listed for being able to open dark fountains Creation?
Quote from the Creation page:

"Creation is the ability to create something from nothing, without manipulating existing things."

Except... That's not what dark worlds do. They manipulate existing things, not create them.

True. They appear to be producing or releasing Darkness. Though, are Dark Fountains not made of Darkness, making them Darkness in another form? Didn't Ralsei say something about his being "pure" darkness, indicating such?

Regarding the quoted part ("Creation is the ability to create something from nothing, without manipulating existing things.".), the prophecy about eternal night growing beneath the Light World, not to mention it being likely Lightners would not have begun existing at the same time as Darkness means creating a Dark Fountain seems to be some kind of manipulation of Darkness?

I do agree now that the Titan shouldn't scale to whatever size the Dark Fountains are given that it's not the embodiment of the Dark World but of the Dark Fountain, which is not the same thing, unless every creator suddenly is the embodiment of the things they create.

Plus Darkness isn't even UES unless you wanna argue that LW Kris and Susie are 7-B or 4-A physically.

Why would them being able to use Darkness as part of a Universal Energy System make them 7-B or 4-A? Couldn't they be using it in a limited amount? I guess for the "Creation".

Though, they seemingly only manipulate it by releasing it from the Earth as a result, even if the Fountain's contents/creations/illusions are influenced by the creator's will. If they're only manipulating it by proxy through Determination/piercing the Earth, like oil gushing from a geyser in a piece of broken land, are they truly manipulating it? Personally, I don't mind them having Darkness Manipulation, I just wanna be thorough.

Dark worlds are sustained by the darker than dark darkness from the fountains.

I'm willing to take you at your word, though do we have any statements to back this up, rather than just inference? No offense meant.
Also, if you're going over the Requirements, what of the above-mentioned issue?

Only problem would be 4 point

Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.

@Ti58 : Thoughts, please?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why would them being able to use Darkness as part of a Universal Energy System make them 7-B or 4-A? Couldn't they be using it in a limited amount? I guess for the "Creation".

Because that's the entire basis of UES, to be able to use energy that has been used for perform a thing that normally wouldn't scale to physical stats to any action you do, including normal attacks.

 

[Da3ggman]

Thank God we're finally waking up from the dream that is unironically trying to scale the fun gang to ******* Multi-Solar System lmao

 

[Comiphorous]

Thank God we're finally waking up from the dream that is unironically trying to scale the fun gang to ******* Multi-Solar System lmao

4-A dark world fun gang was peak you just don't see the vision

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Thank God we're finally waking up from the dream that is unironically trying to scale the fun gang to ******* Multi-Solar System lmao

Yeah. I think we were all just on the hype train but aren't now. I wasn't a fan of the multi-solar stuff but thought that city level wouldn't be that far of a reach but now with everyone's points, I'm fine with them not.
In conclusion, Kris stays a Frisk Victim for the foreseeable future and that makes me happy.

 

[Comiphorous]

Yeah. I think we were all just on the hype train but aren't now. I wasn't a fan of the multi-solar stuff but thought that city level wouldn't be that far of a reach but now with everyone's points, I'm fine with them not.
In conclusion, Kris stays a Frisk Victim for the foreseeable future and that makes me happy.

Deltarune supporters in the next several years making the "Deltarune 1-C Upgrade" thread knowing Kris can't be Frisk fodder anymore

 

[StrymULTRA]

Thank God we're finally waking up from the dream that is unironically trying to scale the fun gang to ******* Multi-Solar System lmao

To be honest, the Titan should 100% upscale from Giga Queen at minimum as it's a literal Dark Fountain that makes up the Dark Worlds, and it makes no sense for a normal Darkner to be above its very source (Ralsei and Gerson are exceptions because they clearly aren't regular Darkners).