Regarding the A Lightspeed statement (Naruto) [STAFF VOTES NEEDED]

[Billybobjoe321]

This is regarding the statement:
光の如きスピードで突進しながら

The last time this was discussed, the main point against it was that a lightspeed or relativistic+ A had no precedence or consistency to the scaling.

without any supporting feats that scale to Ay’s movement, it’s hard to justify taking the statement as literal over hyperbolic.

Much of the "supporting points" for the consistency of this don't actually exist.

Ay's body handling light-speed movement =/= Ay can fight at light-speed.

Don't think he has an issue with the statement itself
It's the scaling "inconsistencies" he has an issue with

However, since then, the raikage has gotten lightspeed scaling and an at least FTL rating on his profile, and has a lot more consistency for the scaling. One issue with the thread that was brought up, was there being too big of a jump in the scaling for what was proposed

there is nothing higher than Massively Hypersonic+ that these characters scale to, which casts doubt on a Rel+ rating.

But now Ay’s V1 state has an approved relativistic rating, and his V2 state has an approved FTL rating. There is more consistency for the scaling as well. Mifune has accepted Speed of Light attack speed, and Sasuke now has an accepted Relativistic+ calc, whom the raikage scales to, and V1 Ay scales above kcm1 Naruto, as he was able to match his speed and movements to block him from moving past him throughout their fight and even after seeing kcm1 Naruto’s speed he holds firm in his stance as being the fastest shinobi alive with kcm Naruto himself calling him fast. Kcm Naruto was only able to move past the raikage at the very end of their fight, and that’s accepted to only be with shunshin. This version of Naruto scales relative to a later version of the aforementioned Sasuke. there are also multiple characters with at least relativistic ratings that the raikage should scale above.

With the raikage himself currently scaling to relativistic and FTL, and upscaling from multiple characters with similar scaling, along with his general portrayal as being one of the fastest shinobi at the time, there should be more than enough consistency for the statement being accepted. This also lines up with our hyperbole page.

A general rule is that if a claim is made that is completely out of league of anything ever shown in said universe (for example, if someone claimed to be a planet buster in a verse where the strongest feats were city busting), it's most likely a hyperbole.

For example, if someone in One Piece claimed that they could destroy an island, it's reasonable to consider it a possibility, since other people in the verse (ex. Whitebeard) have done comparable things (of course, it still has to be evaluated based on the feats and power-scaling of the actual character).

Regarding this, I have two possible proposals.

Option 1: fully Scale V1 A and B to SoL. Something like:
A:
At least Sub-Relativistic (Should be comparable to base Killer B), Speed of Light with V1 (Stated to move at a speed akin to light), FTL with V2 (Effortlessly overwhelmed the perception of a Mangekyō Sharingan-enhanced Sasuke). Furthermore, Karin observed that nothing in Sasuke's arsenal could help him keep up with Ay's Shunshin
B:
At least Sub-Relativistic (He easily reacted to Sasuke’s Chidori Katana and was comfortably able to keep up during a 3-on-1 assault from Sasuke, Jugo, and Suigetsu.), Speed of Light with Version 1 Jinchūriki Cloak (He was capable of performing a Double Lariat alongside A, a feat that required matching A’s speed and precision perfectly. that same Lariat is described as moving at a speed akin to light), FTL with Version 2 Jinchūriki Cloak (Far faster than before. Able to hit Kisame before he could react)


Or, Option 2 if you believe the lariat is above the raikage’s base speed: SoL rating only applies to the lariat for V1. Statement still fully applies to V2. Something like:
A:
At least Sub-Relativistic (Should be comparable to base Killer B), Relativistic with V1 (Able to keep up with KCM Naruto), Speed of Light with Lariat (stated to move at a speed akin to light), at least FTL with V2 (Effortlessly overwhelmed the perception of a Mangekyō Sharingan-enhanced Sasuke). Furthermore, Karin observed that nothing in Sasuke's arsenal could help him keep up with Ay's Shunshin.
B:
At least Sub-Relativistic (He easily reacted to Sasuke’s Chidori Katana and was comfortably able to keep up during a 3-on-1 assault from Sasuke, Jugo, and Suigetsu.), Relativistic with Version 1 Jinchūriki Cloak (He was capable of performing a Double Lariat alongside A, a feat that required matching A’s speed and precision perfectly.), Speed of Light with Lariat (Stated to move at speed akin to light), FTL with Version 2 Jinchūriki Cloak (Far faster than before. Able to hit Kisame before he could react)

Disagree: despite being supported, having consistency, and precedence, the statement is still regarded as hyperbole and nothing changes.

Edit: ended up changing some of the options and values due to the arguments of Samlex1234

Option 1: MattaGrimm
Option 2: Samlex1234, DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral: Ghostimuscrime, Godernet

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Disagree, this is a simile that bears 0 literal weight to Ay's actual scaling, hype text like that exists endlessly in shonen media, we only take the literal statements & discard the rest, Net's translation in that CRT was faulty and this thread is honestly useless as he is already FTL


In the future try inquiring about topics in the general discussion thread so you can be given an idea of what was rejected and why

 

[Testarossa002]

The last time this was discussed, the main point against it was that a lightspeed or relativistic+ A had no precedence or other scaling. However, since then, the raikage has gotten lightspeed scaling and an at least FTL rating on his profile, which provides consistency and scaling for the statement which is why I think it should be accepted, as well as the fact it would not really affect scaling as far as I know. Regarding this, I have a few separate possible proposals.

Nah
See the last page

The conclusion was that the statement is hyperbolic and your thread doesn't argue against that
You could add it to his justification but it's just fluff that doesn't add or remove anything to/from scaling
It's like adding this to Juubito's rating

At least FTL (Far faster than Zaku who can fire supersonic attacks)

It's true but unnecessary

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Nah
See the last page

The conclusion was that the statement is hyperbolic and your thread doesn't argue against that
You could add it to his justification but it's just fluff that doesn't add or remove anything to/from scaling
It's like adding this to Juubito's rating

It's true but unnecessary

On the contrary, I think adding (Far faster than Zaku who can fire supersonic attacks) to everyone who's supersonic and above is an optimal decision.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

The conclusion was that the statement is hyperbolic and your thread doesn't argue against that

Yes, but the main reason for that conclusion at the end of the thread is a lack of consistency and scaling

without any supporting feats that scale to Ay’s movement, it’s hard to justify taking the statement as literal over hyperbole.

Which we now have.
This also lines up with the page for hyperbole

For example, if someone in One Piece claimed that they could destroy an island, it's reasonable to consider it a possibility, since other people in the verse (ex. Whitebeard) have done comparable things (of course, it still has to be evaluated based on the feats and power-scaling of the actual character).

Not only does the naruto verse have precedence and scaling for lightspeed, but A himself does.
consistency is the main thing people disagreeing with the thread asked for and what lead them to determine it hyperbole

It's not an argument for consistency to say "A character exists who has a lightspeed attack." There is no relationship between the characters (A and mifune) at all.

another persons reason for disagreeing is that A doesn’t scale to mifune, which he now does. Arguing for consistency is directly arguing against hyperbole, which is what this thread is doing. The main thing people disagreeing with that thread were asking for is consistency.

It's like adding this to Juubito's rating

But the main difference is, this would just be adding support for a speed tier that they are already above, while the A statement provides support for his current speed tier. One of my proposals is also to add the scaling to V1 A, which wouldn’t be unnecessary.

Disagree, this is a simile that bears 0 literal weight to Ay's actual scaling…this thread is honestly useless as he is already FTL

Not only could the statement increase V1 A’s current scaling, but having a statement would allow other characters to further scale off of A.

In the future try inquiring about topics in the general discussion thread so you can be given an idea of what was rejected and why

I already know why the thread was rejected. Lack of consistency. This is echoed by multiple people within the thread, for example

Ay's body handling light-speed movement =/= Ay can fight at light-speed.

Being faster than someone who moves at the speed of lighting isn't good support for you moving at the speed of light/having much higher ends of speed

His slash isn't. The projectile he creates is. Raikage has no scaling to that projectile. (In reference to mifune’s iaido, which the Raikage now currently scales to)

You'd have to find evidence which supports the claim that Raikage moves at the speed of light specifically,

If that feat is gone... That means there is nothing higher than Massively Hypersonic+ that these characters scale to, which casts doubt on a Rel+ rating.

There is a large gap between Madara's Relativistic feat and the Speed of Light which is a part of the proposal in the OP. (A large gap that no longer exists)

@Testarossa002 , even you yourself state

Don't think he has an issue with the statement itself
It's the scaling "inconsistencies" he has an issue with
At least that was one of the major reasons he gave in his downgrade thread

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

idk why you are hell bent on the idea that having supporting feats somehow make non literal hype texts suddenly literal, it does not, the very nature of the phrasing destroys your argument

and no it would not benefit anyone, even if I took that as literal, light like (aka speed like light) at best only makes you relativistic which is already what his current tier is in there are no upgrade avenues here

 

[MinatoSparkle]

They're tryna say V1 Ay is Rel+

 

[Billybobjoe321]

idk why you are hell bent on the idea that having supporting feats somehow make non literal hype texts suddenly literal, it does not,

That was literally the main point against the thread. A lack of consistency to the statement. That is the main thing that determines whether statements are hyperbole or not.

and no it would not benefit anyone, even if I took that as literal, light like (aka speed like light) at best only makes you relativistic which is already what his current tier is in there are no upgrade avenues here

Like I said, other characters can be further scaled off of this. And it would be SoL at best.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

I also edited my original reply to provide further evidence

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

That was literally the main point against the thread. A lack of consistency to the statement. That is the main thing that determines whether statements are hyperbole or not.

Like I said, other characters can be further scaled off of this. And it would be SoL at best.

main point of that thread =/= only glaring issue in that argument, what part of his translation being faulty do you not get?



"it would be SOL at best" yeah that's right at best, not at least, you can only assign bare minimum values and not the highest possible assumption, no staff is gonna accept that

 

[Billybobjoe321]

main point of that thread =/= only glaring issue in that argument, what part of his translation being faulty do you not get?

I didn’t use the faulty translation at all though. Is the correct translation not “Charging with light-like speed”?

"it would be SOL at best" yeah that's right at best, not at least,

Yeah? I never said that would be the bare minimum.

you can only assign bare minimum values and not the highest possible assumption, no staff is gonna accept that

I didn’t apply the highest possible assumption. I put “Relativistic+ with V1” as option 2. The “SoL in V1” is only listed at the end as a possibility.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I didn’t use the faulty translation at all though. Is the correct translation not “Charging with light-like speed”?

what part of his translation being faulty do you not get?

Rushing forward with the speed of light.

Yeah? I never said that would be the bare minimum.

I didn’t apply the highest possible assumption. I put “Relativistic+ with V1” as option 2. The “SoL in V1” is only listed at the end as a possibility.

Both are possibilities, Rel is comparable to light and Rel+ is also comparable to light, why should we take the higher number?

 

[Billybobjoe321]

I did not use his translation of “rushing forward with the speed of light” at all. I used the correct translation. So I don’t understand your point about that.

Both are possibilities, Rel is comparable to light and Rel+ is also comparable to light, why should we take the higher number?

What I listed as Relativistic+ was 0.5c. I believe that is a reasonable interpretation of the statement. What number did you have in mind? I could just add it as another option.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I can clearly see you used something different, what part of me highlight his can’t you grasp?

And no 0.5c is baseless guesswork, it can be 0.1c and be “light-like”, heck it can be MHS and still be light like to those slow enough because it’ll be imperceptible like light

 

[Billybobjoe321]

I can clearly see you used something different, what part of me highlight his can’t you grasp?

How is his faulty translation relevant to this thread? I’ve already corrected it.

And no 0.5c is baseless guesswork, it can be 0.1c and be “light-like”

So would you want me to add another option, or do you just flat out disagree? I picked 0.5c based on the fact that if something is like another thing, they are close to it. As well as the fact it was one of the options in the original thread.

heck it can be MHS and still be light like to those slow enough because it’ll be imperceptible like light

The statement is referring to his speed in and of itself though. It doesn’t say his speed is imperceptible like light, it says his speed itself is like light. And light is not imperceptible, in general, and in regards to the statements source.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I saw some of Lex’s arguments in support of this so I’ll retract my disagreement you can consider me neutral

 

[Samlex1234]

This is regarding the statement:
光の如きスピードで突進しながら

The last time this was discussed, the main point against it was that a lightspeed or relativistic+ A had no precedence or other scaling. However, since then, the raikage has gotten lightspeed scaling and an at least FTL rating on his profile, which provides consistency and scaling for the statement which is why I think it should be accepted, as well as the fact it would not really affect scaling as far as I know. Regarding this, I have a few separate possible proposals.

Option 1: just simply add the statement to A’s profile as further justification for his speed rating. Something like:
At least Sub-Relativistic (Should be comparable to base Killer B),Relativistic with V1 (Able to keep up with KCM Naruto), at least FTL with V2 (Effortlessly overwhelmed the perception of a Mangekyō Sharingan-enhanced Sasuke). Stated to move at a light-like speed. Furthermore, Karin observed that nothing in Sasuke's arsenal could help him keep up with Ay's Shunshin

Option 2: scale V1 A to the statement. something like:
At least Sub-Relativistic (Should be comparable to base Killer B), Relativistic+ with V1 (Stated to move at a light-like speed), at least FTL with V2 (Faster than before). Effortlessly overwhelmed the perception of a Mangekyō Sharingan-enhanced Sasuke. Furthermore, Karin observed that nothing in Sasuke's arsenal could help him keep up with Ay's Shunshin
Or depending on how we take the statement, Possibly SoL in V1

Option 3: despite being supported, having consistency, and precedence, the statement is still regarded as hyperbole and nothing changes.

I agree with you on this and I actually think it should have its own rating.

光の如きスピードで突進しながら
“Charging forward at a speed akin to light.”

The phrase 「光の如きスピードで突進しながら」 isn’t a loose simile. 如き (gotoki) implies equivalence or akin to in essence, not just “sort of like.” Since it directly links 光 (light) with スピド (speed), the meaning is a speed comparable to the movement of light itself - i.e. 1c (the speed of light).
Think of the difference: saying “the speed of his punch is like a bullet” is vague imagery, but “the speed of his punch is as fast as the speed of a bullet” is a measurable claim. 如きスピード falls into the second category. If it were only figurative, the text could’ve used 「光のように速く」 (“as fast as light”). But in the context of 突進 (tosshin, charging forward), it clearly signals an actual velocity reference.


Note - I used AI to break down the kanji here, but you can also confirm this with an official translator - the nuance of 如き supports equivalence, not just loose comparison.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

I agree with you on this and I actually think it should have its own rating.

光の如きスピードで突進しながら
“Charging forward at a speed akin to light.”

The phrase 「光の如きスピードで突進しながら」 isn’t a loose simile. 如き (gotoki) implies equivalence or akin to in essence, not just “sort of like.” Since it directly links 光 (light) with スピド (speed), the meaning is a speed comparable to the movement of light itself - i.e. 1c (the speed of light).
Think of the difference: saying “the speed of his punch is like a bullet” is vague imagery, but “the speed of his punch is as fast as the speed of a bullet” is a measurable claim. 如きスピード falls into the second category. If it were only figurative, the text could’ve used 「光のように速く」 (“as fast as light”). But in the context of 突進 (tosshin, charging forward), it clearly signals an actual velocity reference.


Note - I used AI to break down the kanji here, but you can also confirm this with an official translator — the nuance of 如き supports equivalence, not just loose comparison.

So should I put you down for option 1 or 2, or make another option?

 

[Samlex1234]

So should I put you down for option 1 or 2, or make another option?

Make another option, in between V1 and V2 add

*Speed of light with Lariat

 

[Billybobjoe321]

*Speed of light with Lariat

Would you think the statement would only apply to the lariat in both versions, or would also apply to everything in V2? Because the statement is in reference to a V1 A’s lariat. What about things like A’s max speed punch in V2. Something like “SoL with Lariat and max speed punch”?

 

[Samlex1234]

Would you think the statement would only apply to the lariat in both versions, or would also apply to everything in V2? Because the statement is in reference to a V1 A’s lariat. What about things like A’s max speed punch in V2. Something like “SoL with Lariat and max speed punch”?

I don’t think the Double Lariat is performed at one fixed speed. It requires Bee and A to sync their movements, meaning the faster one sometimes has to slow down. The key reference for light-speed comes from the moment they used the Double Lariat against Kisame so that is what we will use. This is what I think in V1 A can be Relativistic for casual speed and his Lariat can be speed of light since it focuses chakra for a short burst move kinda like body flicker, now since v2 is a different state it is greater than any speed from the former including lariat so, V1 relativistic, speed of light with Lariat, at least FTL v2, higher with max punch.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Bump

 

[Billybobjoe321]

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[Billybobjoe321]

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[Billybobjoe321]

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[Billybobjoe321]

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[Billybobjoe321]

Bump

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Bump

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Bump

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Bump

 

[MattaGrimm]

This is regarding the statement:
光の如きスピードで突進しながら

The last time this was discussed, the main point against it was that a lightspeed or relativistic+ A had no precedence or other scaling. However, since then, the raikage has gotten lightspeed scaling and an at least FTL rating on his profile, which provides consistency and scaling for the statement which is why I think it should be accepted. Regarding this, I have a two possible proposals.

Option 1: fully Scale V1 A to SoL. Something like:
At least Sub-Relativistic (Should be comparable to base Killer B), Speed of Light with V1 (Stated to move at a light-like speed), at least FTL with V2 (Effortlessly overwhelmed the perception of a Mangekyō Sharingan-enhanced Sasuke). Furthermore, Karin observed that nothing in Sasuke's arsenal could help him keep up with Ay's Shunshin

Option 2: SoL rating only applies to the lariat for V1. Statement still fully applies to V2. Something like:
At least Sub-Relativistic (Should be comparable to base Killer B), Relativistic with V1 (Able to keep up with KCM Naruto), Speed of Light with Lariat (stated to move at a light-like speed), at least FTL with V2 (Effortlessly overwhelmed the perception of a Mangekyō Sharingan-enhanced Sasuke). Furthermore, Karin observed that nothing in Sasuke's arsenal could help him keep up with Ay's Shunshin.

Disagree: despite being supported, having consistency, and precedence, the statement is still regarded as hyperbole and nothing changes.

With option 1 accepted, every relativistic rating will be increased to FTL

Edit: ended up changing some of the options and values due to the arguments of Samlex1234

Option 1:
Option 2: @Samlex1234
Disagree:
Neutral: @Ghostimuscrime

I think I’ll agree with option 1

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Leaning more towards option 2 for now.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

How many staff votes would I need for this?

 

[DavidTPPM]

How many staff votes would I need for this?

Probably at least 3 assuming there are no disagreements since Naruto is a controversial verse

 

[Godernet]

Neutral on the topic overall, but I probably disagree with a full rating to SOL.

"Light-like" is as figurative a description as you can get for a speed comparison.

Definitely not enough proof to say that with 100% certainty that Lariat was meant to be the exact speed of light.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

"Light-like" is as figurative a description as you can get for a speed comparison.

Definitely not enough proof to say that with 100% certainty that Lariat was meant to be the exact speed of light.

I feel like samlex’s breakdown of it provides a pretty strong case for the rating. It also has a good amount of consistency for the scaling.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Bump

 

[Billybobjoe321]

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[Billybobjoe321]

Bump