This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
I'm not sure the "casual one shot" is entirely true. It's definitely possible to survive most attacks when DEFENDing, especially with good equipment, Shadow Mantle or not, & Susie, with good Equipment, can throw out a Rude Buster (Thus not having been DEFENDing.) & survive a hit from around full HP or slightly less, even from stuff like Tracking Swords or the fierce winds.
The -999 is also a bit suspect as evidence of stats, especially if it's possible to not get one-shot when UP; We see it get called SWOON when it occurs, as opposed to DOWN when a normal DOWNing happens; The different name suggests a different effect, & this is backed up by SWOON disabling passive healing/Regeneration that normally occurs while DOWN.
I definitely do think The Knight is superior. At the start, The Delta Warriors have their damage dealt reduced to 20%, & they regain 1% per turn (0.5% per turn on Rude Buster, IIRC.), for up to 15 turns, up to a maximum of 35%. So maybe they're just unnerved?
But ultimately, they only do 20% of its HP, Susie is in disbelief that they won before she gets arrogant, & evidently, even a casual Knight is holding back, considering that after it sees even its spectacular Hyper-Goner-esque charged up final move fail, it just takes them out in a cutscene, maybe while they're off-guard, maybe it's just hitting really hard.
& of course, there's the case that it was holding back less, or even not at all with the cutscene attack, because The Knight wouldn't have to worry about hitting Kris or the SOUL too hard that way.
It's also possible the one-shot threshold in Deltarune is very high.
Susie's threats were that it can't beat them in the Light World & they just have to get past it. Considering The Knight abducted Undyne through the Light World, is physically much more unlike a Lightner than Kris, Susie, Noelle & Berdly, suggesting it may be unlike Lightners & whatnot that they understand, & it had the option of just making a Titan there to impede them, I think it's reasonable to believe it was laughing because of those reasons.
Not to mention, it spends all of Chapter 4 attacking from a distance, while they're helpless climbing, or literally in the dark. Though I can believe this is just pragmatism, even if it isn't some sort of bizarre goading tactic or something. I don't believe The Delta Warriors are at all close to The Knight's equals, but if there's any risk, why take the chance?
Well the Knight isn't just out to kill them otherwise they would've in Chapter 3, we even know that they're seemingly working with Kris. And of course the Knight is probably Dess as people know, or at least WAS Dess. And while it's true that Susie's threats were about just getting past the Knight, Susie still clearly is looking for a fight and the Knight sees her as a non-threat. I don't really see an interpretation where the Knight thinks of the Fun Gang as any sort of opposing force to be weary of.
It may be worth noting that Kris seems to normally be holding back against Tenna; They do about triple damage to him with ATTACKs after completing the Sword Route. A possible reason for this is The Sword Route is where Tenna blabs about a deal, collaborating with Kris & The Knight, & in doing so, informs the SOUL; Kris could be doing extra damage via Rage Power.
But I can believe Tenna being superior to each Delta Warrior individually, even if Kris is holding back.
I was including this factor in the list but I still think Kris is inferior as an individual. Having Susie and Ralsei is a major asset in any fight. Tenna might not be the craziest enemy, but he's still a tough main boss that should still be comfortably capable of beating them in a 1-v-1 fight imo.
FWIW, Weird Route Spamton NEO probably is one where Kris did get serious, just because they don't use X-Slash anywhere else & Spamton was not only obstructing the Fountain but after the SOUL, which Kris may seem bitter towards at times, but ironically enough, I'd say, also seems possessive of. Some think there's a correlation between X-Slash & the post-Knight SWOON slash, due to the SFX seemingly being speed-altered versions of the same sound, but I don't think that the SFX stuff is evidence we can officially use yet, even if there might be a case based on X-Slash.
But yes, Kris definitely couldn't get past the Blue Light Specil alone, & Spamton Neo being a superboss otherwise.
No I think it was just one. She was holding it by its head-end from the ground and lifting it on a looped animation cycle, meaning she could technically do it forever.
On another note can I just mention how great Deal Gone Wrong is. It's probably my favorite non-boss theme. It's very simple but it perfectly portrays the emotion of the circumstance and how scary Spamton would be from Kris' perspective. I just hear it and picture Spamton coming closer and speaking in the voice that Caine's VA did for him, and it's peak. Or even better when walking into the mansion of the Weird Route and seeing how a staple in the game's baseline story has been completely changed and taken over by the secret boss who we've empowered. The overwhelming sense of "Oh god, we did something awful". Though unfortunately we don't really see any of the other characters react to it much, but whatever, beggars and choosers.
Btw guys I've seen people saying that the Trouble Dingle song in the Undertale sound test room has the same sound font as the Weird Route jingle. I haven't seen any details about it though. But I've never forgotten about the Sound Test room. I'm still certain that it existed to foreshadow Deltarune.
Yeah. I think it's fair to say The Delta Warriors can survive some hits at the level The Knight is holding back at during a lot of the battle, though we have little indication of how much that is other than the damage reduction multipliers active & the slivers of the visible in-battle HP bar for The Knight. (Pixel scaling the health bar may be relevant??)
Well the Knight isn't just out to kill them otherwise they would've in Chapter 3, we even know that they're seemingly working with Kris. And of course the Knight is probably Dess as people know, or at least WAS Dess. And while it's true that Susie's threats were about just getting past the Knight, Susie still clearly is looking for a fight and the Knight sees her as a non-threat. I don't really see an interpretation where the Knight thinks of the Fun Gang as any sort of opposing force to be weary of.
My point was it sees them as not worth it tactically, & their behaviour suggests not wanting to fight.
Only fighting when The Delta Warrior obstruct abducting Toriel.
Only attacking from a distance while flying away.
Or while in darkness.
Or by summoning a Titan to do it for them.
Could it thrash them into dust? Almost certainly, but although it holds back against in a direct fight against Kris, it's constrastingly indiscriminate in Chapter 4, attacking The Delta Warriors as a whole while being avoidant of direct confrontation.
Be it pragmatism, being on a tight schedule or whatever, I think it laughed at Susie claiming it can't beat them in The Light World because its confident those tactics ACTUALLY won't work against it, even if it is far stronger.
Heck, Susie spends most of the encounter against The Knight trash talking it, telling it it really messed up picking a fight with them, that it should just give up, & she sees that it doesn't say a dang thing. It doesn't respond to her asserting it isn't powerful enough.
The Knight was holding back that whole fight, or most of it at least, so it can't have been so distracted by fighting as to not notice her talking if it wasn't putting in its full effort.
Meaning when Susie fought The Knight & told it, effectively, they could & would beat it in a fight, it didn't respond as she statedly & irritatedly noted.
But when Susie tried to intimidate it with the tactic of running past it to seal the Dark Fountain so as to confront it in a presumably weaker Light World form, it LAUGHED at that.
Therefore, I do not think the difference in power was why it laughed in her face. What amused it seemed to be something to do with her plan.
I was including this factor in the list but I still think Kris is inferior as an individual. Having Susie and Ralsei is a major asset in any fight. Tenna might not be the craziest enemy, but he's still a tough main boss that should still be comfortably capable of beating them in a 1-v-1 fight imo.
No I think it was just one. She was holding it by its head-end from the ground and lifting it on a looped animation cycle, meaning she could technically do it forever.
Imagine if the Blue and Orange combat mechanics are reintroduced in Chapter 5 (since it's not unlikely that Asgore will be an enemy).
Plus it's consistent. Spamton NEO brought back Yellow, Gerson brought back Green. Blue and Orange attacks were primarily used by the skeletons, Mettaton, and Asgore. And I'm pretty much certain that the Blue soul mode will come back in the future too. Iconic thanks to Sans.
Imagine if the Blue and Orange combat mechanics are reintroduced in Chapter 5 (since it's not unlikely that Asgore will be an enemy).
Plus it's consistent. Spamton NEO brought back Yellow, Gerson brought back Green. Blue and Orange attacks were primarily used by the skeletons, Mettaton, and Asgore. And I'm pretty much certain that the Blue soul mode will come back in the future too. Iconic thanks to Sans.
It'll be crazy if DR somehow only introduces 1 new SOUL colour mode's stuff, & it's just Yellow in Chapter 2.
On the topic of Asgore.... Well, first how previous Chapters have ended:
1: Kris with red eyes & a knife, so people thought Chara was there or something.
2: Kris making a Dark Fountain, so people thought Kris was The Knight.
3: Kris checks the panel codes then the bunker/shelter door opens for them. If we didn't get 4 at the same time, I bet people would've thought 4 would have us going inside.
(Funny term, BTW, I wonder if the "bunker"/shelter WILL bring actual bunk, or be an actual debunker, lol.)
4: Kris gets an ominous phone call &/or talks to Susie outside who's mentioning how they're still doing this, IIRC.
As is typical of cliffhangers, each can be misleading. After all, wild twists & surprise can make dramatic revelations more engaging.
Deltarune's audience have been mislead at least twice by the endings, & we have new endings to be mislead with, & new evidence to lead us down paths, right or wrong.
So with how things have gone in the past, I'm wondering if all the foreshadowing is just a false trail.
Especially, so far, we have evidence the festival is tomorrow, but we also have stuff suggesting that the next Dark World is Flower King.
Things that'll probably happen in Chapter 5:
It will be Sunday. (IDK if this means more church, but doubt it.)
Kris, Susie, Noelle & Berdly at the least will attend the festival. At least 2 of them will be paired. Others might also attend.
Kris will buy ice cream at the festival for Susie, saying it's from themself or Ralsei.
There'll probably be NPCs looking to buy flowers; I recall at least 1 NPC during Chapter 3.5 mentioning the flower shop is closed.
Bibliox may also hint at what might happen, given how much Toby seems to care about music. From the Deltarune Wiki:
Many of the words in the Proofread and EasyProof ACTs ("GALLERY," "ROOTS," "FESTIVAL," "FLASHBACK," "SWORD," "GUARDIAN," "ATRIUM," "SYNTHESIS," and "AMPHITHEATER") correspond with the titles of certain tracks in the OST: Gallery, Digital Roots/BIT ROOTS, Flashback (Excerpt), SWORD, GUARDIAN, and ATRIUM. "FESTIVAL," "SYNTHESIS," and "AMPHITHEATER" do not have counterparts. The connection with song titles likely relates to Bibliox's connection with hymns.
Several of the chosen titles are in all caps. While Gallery is not, it is internally referred to as GALLERY.ogg.
So Festival, Synthesis & Amphitheater are likely songs that will happen in Chapter 5. (Although it's possible they're from later on, too.)
Based on what The Hammer of Justice said, there will likely be a "field of pink and gold" that gets "charred by an inferno of jealousy".
Asgore will supposedly be a boss & take on the role of "the flower man trapped in asylum". Maybe Asgore will be "trapped in asylum" because he somehow accidentally locked himself in some part of the flower shop & can't get out.
There will probably be wheat for The Forgotten Man to harvest so he can make more donuts. (Assuming he can still continue with his usual routine.)
Carol might visit the shop, since she's already left a note for Asgore telling him he's late on last month's rent; I'd bet the festival is his last chance to make good flower sales.
Obviously, something might happen regarding his exotic flowers in glass. Foreign climate or something he said.
There's probably also going to be some music themed areas even in the Flower King DW, because music helps flowers grow & Asgore's truck is notedly full of CDs.
He's also got a basement & a theory board, seemingly. I wonder if anything will come of that?
Carol might also have a scene through mayoral duties, for example, announcing the festival for the town. (Or her absence will speak for her, so to speak.)
Rudy will try to attend.
Carol might show up, since seemingly she called Kris & is interested in them going to the festival with Noelle in the Weird Route, if that is Carol.
Oh & I guess Pizzapants will do his date. Supposedly in what he calls his "duct tape suit", but his sprite looks different.
In theory, there may or may not be a Dark World. Chapter 4 had lots of Light World stuff, what if they escalate it & make Chapter 5 all Light World?
Alternatively, I do wonder if the two won't be mixed; The Knight makes a Dark World that engulfs the town, & everyone thinks it's just part of the festival, unaware of the danger. Darkners? They're just paid actors working for the Festival hired by the mayor who dare not break character for fear of Carol's wrath! ....Right?
In theory, this could also lead to another kind of passive Toriel scenario; With Asriel coming to visit, Kris might want their family to reunite. With The Dark World &/or festival making things grand & fantastic, maybe Toriel will be escorted by Kris & company -Be she in distress or not- to reunite with Asgore. Heck, Kris probably doesn't like her new hanging out with Sans, even if this doesn't change the new status quo, it might be a harsh but fair learning experience for Kris....
There might be something to do with ROOTS, especially since that has plant motifs, & if that's connected to the pointed tail of hell &/or FRIEND....
There's also Jackenstein's chess board maze, but so far it doesn't seem to suggest anything other than the order of the chapters & Sword Route being able to be progressed past to the "flower" of Chapter 5, just like the regular route.
The website also previewed a balloon & a wreath. We saw the latter being placed on the Town Hall's outside by Ice Wolf.
Oh & Ice-E is also rebranding apparently, so maybe that'll come up? If they can get it done in time for the festival, I'd find it surprising & expect it to be shoddy. I do wonder if it'll come up, though.
Really, the biggest clues are, again, as above Bibliox's spell check words with no corresponding songs yet: Festival, Synthesis & Amphitheater. The first is obvious, but surely the other 2 could give inspiration about what's there?
Yeah. I think it's fair to say The Delta Warriors can survive some hits at the level The Knight is holding back at during a lot of the battle, though we have little indication of how much that is other than the damage reduction multipliers active & the slivers of the visible in-battle HP bar for The Knight. (Pixel scaling the health bar may be relevant??)
Pixel scaling total amount of Knight HP or something else? Wiki.gg claims that it HP is 7300(Final attack triggers after losing 20% HP). Bigger that any enemy, besides Titan.
The Roaring Knight is the main antagonist of Deltarune. It serves as the final boss and Shadow Crystal boss of Chapter 3, as well as the main antagonist of Chapter 4. While it does not physically appear in Chapter 1 or Chapter 2, King and Queen both align themselves with the Knight after the...
deltarune.wiki
They additionally have base damage numbers for different Knight attacks, and many interested details about it(Knight attacks mostly prioritize mantle holder, Sword tunnel avoids targeting Kris)
Knight oneshot Susie, when she was laughing and weren't focused on her. Ralsei was focused on Susie, when he was attacked. Kris just stop fighting when other two members of Fun Gang are down. It is not entirely clear what would happen if Susie didn't job in that moment. If Knight can use unavoidable attacks in normal fight, we would lose eventually. If not, Fun Gang loses
Pixel scaling total amount of Knight HP or something else? Wiki.gg claims that it HP is 7300(Final attack triggers after losing 20% HP). Bigger that any enemy, besides Titan.
Yeah, I know, but the precise HP value can't be known WITHOUT datamining.
For our standards, the best we could do is assume The Knight goes into its final phase AFTER receiving 1460 or more damage, & that's assuming we accept damage numbers.
The amount of HP of The Knight that can be depleted may roughly correspond to the Stamina loss it tolerates, or may be indicative of how far The Delta Warriors downscale from it. 20% of its HP. Curiously, damage is also reduced to 20% at the start of the fight, with 1% being regained per the next 15 turns, up to 35%.
20% or one fifth damage to trigger its final phase.
Damage reduced to one fifth.
The Thorn Ring reduces Noelle's HP to 55....
I wonder if there's some significance there?
Anyway, point is, the above assumes we accept damage numbers; If we don't, since the health bar is deliberately visible to the audience, it's a potential way of gauging a scaling metric for The Delta Warriors against The Roaring Knight.
The Roaring Knight is the main antagonist of Deltarune. It serves as the final boss and Shadow Crystal boss of Chapter 3, as well as the main antagonist of Chapter 4. While it does not physically appear in Chapter 1 or Chapter 2, King and Queen both align themselves with the Knight after the...
deltarune.wiki
They additionally have base damage numbers for different Knight attacks, and many interested details about it(Knight attacks mostly prioritize mantle holder, Sword tunnel avoids targeting Kris)
Yeah, it's a great guide.
I used it to help me figure out how to beat The Knight when I did that some weeks ago Mantle-less. Took me like, 10 hours of attempts, then after a break I realized I needed to adjust the equipment & got it after another 10 or so hours of attempts with the new equipment set up.
Knight oneshot Susie, when she was laughing and weren't focused on her. Ralsei was focused on Susie, when he was attacked. Kris just stop fighting when other two members of Fun Gang are down. It is not entirely clear what would happen if Susie didn't job in that moment. If Knight can use unavoidable attacks in normal fight, we would lose eventually. If not, Fun Gang loses
I do not deny this.
(Also, FWIW, Susie's dialogue suggests Stamina depletion, so she may've been SWOONed in the cutscene after being tired out from that fight.)
What do you thinks think of my Snowgrave calc? Main difference from current accepted feat is that current feat assumes that ice was made from air components, but mine argues that it was made from water vapor.
It would upgrade Noelle from 8-C to High 8-C.
"The next patch (1.05) only contains extremely minor changes, but internally it contains some large code changes, so we will be initially releasing it on a Steam beta branch soon."
That note is seemingly only found on Deltarune's Steam Patch notes section.
Since the new update was for patch 1.04, this info about 1.05 is intriguing.
I wonder what the "large code changes" could be.... I hope it doesn't cause backwards compatibility issues.
So anyways what do we think about how Monster's have different yet still similar physiology in Deltarune? They seemed to be less magical as they just straight up can't use it in the Light World, it's now known that Susie can bleed, yet there was that Monster child in Chapter 1 that questioned what it feels like to be made of blood, meanwhile Susie bleeding seems to tie into the long-running Sans mystery. Yet at the same time, we know Monster's in DR still turn to dust when they die, of course Gerson's dust confirms this but Susie saying that when Monster's die their dust is buried cements it even further as a natural thing for ALL Monster's, yet at the same time, the dust being buried rather than spread over the Monster's favorite thing is different from Undertale. None of it seems to make sense but knowing Toby, it's meant to be this way, and will eventually make sense.
But it's just so confusing I honestly can't even make a coherent theory about it. First thing that comes to mind is that there are different kinds of Monster's with different physiologies beyond simply looking different. But Susie doesn't separate herself from Monster's, she is a Monster as well, and states herself that Monster's turn to dust when they die. So it's unlikely that her body would remain intact upon death. And if we assume that Sans actually does bleed and the Sans Deltarune theory is true for the sake of argument, Sans turns to dust as well after going off-screen.
But the entire reason why Monster's turn to dust in Undertale is because they're made out of dust and magic, which is pulled together and formed by the Monster's soul. Every soul is unique, so every Monster is unique in turn. Their form of magic, the bullet magic, also reflects their character and emotions. Their bodies aren't made out of any physical material other than the dust that has coalesced into the form they represent. If Deltarune Monster's are the same, they just shouldn't have blood. But maybe something in this timeline made them different. If what held them together in Undertale was magic and the soul, maybe in Deltarune, something else holds them together, like, if we think of the "Dust+Magic+Soul=Monster" physiology as a recipe, maybe the recipe is just different in Deltarune, and namely, doesn't include magic, which would explain why it's not something natural or known to them in DR, that's the best idea I can think of.
But THEN, there's another huge elephant in the room. Determination. It's been established that Deltarune Monster's have Determination, as a strong amount of Determination is required to create a Dark Fountain. Toby is obviously a master at wording things perfectly, and how the creation of DF's has been worded is not a mistake. This means by definition that Susie has Determination, which as we know is explicitly not something Monster's are prone to having in Undertale. The only known Monster in UT that has produced Determination naturally is Undyne, and that was because she was staring down the end of the world. Undyne is meant to be a freak of nature by Monster standards though, so it makes sense. In Deltarune, it's not really portrayed as a special thing. Susie casually does it, the Knight (who is most likely Dess obviously) casually does it, and obviously Kris does it even without our soul. This just throws another puzzle piece into the mix because of how it further establishes the difference between worlds.
Think of it like this;
If Deltarune Monster's turn to dust, they shouldn't have actual organic body parts, especially blood, and shouldn't be able to produce Determination unless their souls are drastically different.
If Monster's bleed, they shouldn't turn to dust, and their souls might be completely different than they are in UT (remember, DT is produced by the soul, and even though Monster's exist purely because of their soul, their souls are incomparably weaker than those of humans).
If they do both, we literally have no idea what's happening and nothing makes sense anymore. Even though we're seeing the "same" characters we saw in Undertale, the nature of how Monster's work in this world is just completely alien. It incorporates aspects of Undertale's lore while changing it in a way that makes it distinctly new.
So anyways what do we think about how Monster's have different yet still similar physiology in Deltarune? They seemed to be less magical as they just straight up can't use it in the Light World, it's now known that Susie can bleed, yet there was that Monster child in Chapter 1 that questioned what it feels like to be made of blood, meanwhile Susie bleeding seems to tie into the long-running Sans mystery. Yet at the same time, we know Monster's in DR still turn to dust when they die, of course Gerson's dust confirms this but Susie saying that when Monster's die their dust is buried cements it even further as a natural thing for ALL Monster's, yet at the same time, the dust being buried rather than spread over the Monster's favorite thing is different from Undertale. None of it seems to make sense but knowing Toby, it's meant to be this way, and will eventually make sense.
But it's just so confusing I honestly can't even make a coherent theory about it. First thing that comes to mind is that there are different kinds of Monster's with different physiologies beyond simply looking different. But Susie doesn't separate herself from Monster's, she is a Monster as well, and states herself that Monster's turn to dust when they die. So it's unlikely that her body would remain intact upon death. And if we assume that Sans actually does bleed and the Sans Deltarune theory is true for the sake of argument, Sans turns to dust as well after going off-screen.
But the entire reason why Monster's turn to dust in Undertale is because they're made out of dust and magic, which is pulled together and formed by the Monster's soul. Every soul is unique, so every Monster is unique in turn. Their form of magic, the bullet magic, also reflects their character and emotions. Their bodies aren't made out of any physical material other than the dust that has coalesced into the form they represent. If Deltarune Monster's are the same, they just shouldn't have blood. But maybe something in this timeline made them different. If what held them together in Undertale was magic and the soul, maybe in Deltarune, something else holds them together, like, if we think of the "Dust+Magic+Soul=Monster" physiology as a recipe, maybe the recipe is just different in Deltarune, and namely, doesn't include magic, which would explain why it's not something natural or known to them in DR, that's the best idea I can think of.
But THEN, there's another huge elephant in the room. Determination. It's been established that Deltarune Monster's have Determination, as a strong amount of Determination is required to create a Dark Fountain. Toby is obviously a master at wording things perfectly, and how the creation of DF's has been worded is not a mistake. This means by definition that Susie has Determination, which as we know is explicitly not something Monster's are prone to having in Undertale. The only known Monster in UT that has produced Determination naturally is Undyne, and that was because she was staring down the end of the world. Undyne is meant to be a freak of nature by Monster standards though, so it makes sense. In Deltarune, it's not really portrayed as a special thing. Susie casually does it, the Knight (who is most likely Dess obviously) casually does it, and obviously Kris does it even without our soul. This just throws another puzzle piece into the mix because of how it further establishes the difference between worlds.
Think of it like this;
If Deltarune Monster's turn to dust, they shouldn't have actual organic body parts, especially blood, and shouldn't be able to produce Determination unless their souls are drastically different.
If Monster's bleed, they shouldn't turn to dust, and their souls might be completely different than they are in UT (remember, DT is produced by the soul, and even though Monster's exist purely because of their soul, their souls are incomparably weaker than those of humans).
If they do both, we literally have no idea what's happening and nothing makes sense anymore. Even though we're seeing the "same" characters we saw in Undertale, the nature of how Monster's work in this world is just completely alien. It incorporates aspects of Undertale's lore while changing it in a way that makes it distinctly new.
Checking the DR Wiki page about Lightners to refresh myself, the apparent pervasive mundanity in the Light World might be a holdover:
In the Undertale 6th anniversary stream, Toby Fox revealed that he considered making everyone in the Light World humans, only to become monsters in the Dark World.[1]
Toby had DR planned before UT, so using monsters may've been a strange holdover from the success of UT.
I'd question if The Knight is physically Dess, since some fans speculate that it's Dess but her body & not her mind/SOUL. This MAY be supported by the peculiar book's text as well -But that's an uncertain topic, IMHO.- as how drastic a change The Knight would seemingly be, compared to other Lightners mostly changing pallets.
Oh, & FWIW, on the topic of Monster biology in DR, besides Susie using a toothbrush, based on her identifying the Auto Axe & Toxic Axe as an electric toothbrush & a dirty toothbrush in church, dental hygiene is a thing.
Also, ironically, Alphys the scientist/teacher contributes to this field.
"It's because of me"
Then again, the chocolates were so stale...
Th... they kind of put me into a coma all last night, so...
She... also could have been trying to poison me? But... - Alphys, Chapter 4
"She gave you chocolates though" ↑Kris, I did notice one of her chocolates was, um, missing...
It's okay! D-delivery fee and all that. Eh... eheh. - Alphys, Chapter 4
Don't have the dialogue that leads up in context handy, sadly, though.
Alphys's dialogue indicates that, besides an alternative to guilt as a reason for the Box of Heart Candies doing 1 damage when eaten, apparently was quite stale & Kris sneaks 1 regardless. (The heck, Undyne? The heck, Sans, since he sold that? At least he accepted a refund of it.)
But yeah, Alphys got "put into a coma all last night", & thought Undyne might be trying to poison her. Alphys probably isn't the most fit individual, so maybe it's just a testament to her less-than-ideal health that it affected her how it did.
Still, apparently Lightner monsters can get what appears to be food poisoning?
Maybe a basis for a resistance for Kris, since they can eat the whole box with little apparent ill effects.
Checking the DR Wiki page about Lightners to refresh myself, the apparent pervasive mundanity in the Light World might be a holdover:
In the Undertale 6th anniversary stream, Toby Fox revealed that he considered making everyone in the Light World humans, only to become monsters in the Dark World.[1]
Toby had DR planned before UT, so using monsters may've been a strange holdover from the success of UT.
I'd question if The Knight is physically Dess, since some fans speculate that it's Dess but her body & not her mind/SOUL. This MAY be supported by the peculiar book's text as well -But that's an uncertain topic, IMHO.- as how drastic a change The Knight would seemingly be, compared to other Lightners mostly changing pallets.
Yeah the Knight might not be the exact same being as Dess. Though I'm questioning how similar the Knight is in the Light World to their Dark World counterpart. Bear in mind that the Knight is wearing a "helmet" that seems to morph, based on when Kris tries to think of the Knight in CH4. The Knight's form seems kinda weird overall.
I doubt that it's just Dess in the Light World, cause unless Dess is freakishly strong, that'd imply Dess could literally carry Undyne to the shelter without any issues, which is hard to believe for obvious reasons. Hell, Susie even makes the comment that the Knight can't beat them in the Light World, which may or may not be true. If it is true though, that brings it even more into question how the Knight could kidnap Undyne. Well there's no real answer to it for now.
Surprisingly, not so many are talking about "Susie dodging Sound of Justice attack" feat. Although it's probably best verse speed feat, if you account for probability of accepting it(there are potential lighting and laser dodge feat, but they are much more shaky, and unlikely to be accepted). And it allows us to easily upgrade Fun Gang and most top tiers to High Hypersonic. Feat itself
I am not entirely familiar with how site works, but AFAIK there should he CRT sometimes in the future, where members would discuss and argue which feats site should accept. When it's planned?
SPOILERS AHEAD
At the end of Chapter 4, Ralsei, IIRC, acts & talks about being more open & honest, even though there's still things he's scared of them finding out about.
But it seems to be a "In the future, I'll do this" approach.
Ralsei, when explaining Darkners at the beginning of Chapter 3, says/asks, "But what if we could take away the light that wasn't there?".
But... light that wasn't there? On one hand, there's that humorous pre-maze scene in Chapter 1 where Lancer & Susie are trying to get "reverse tans". "Pale as a horse" & all that.
But then Chapter 2 has traffic lights, fireworks, electrical lights, spotlight puzzles, & video game consoles.
Chapter 3 has more spotlights, game consoles, a "rainbow" -Or what's supposed to be one- among other things. To say nothing of The Knight's hands glowing a "strange colour". How? Colour is light.... & while it's unclear whether it was the mental/tactical or luminous kind, conversing with King after TV World reveals he learned of The Knight's "brilliance" through Jevil.
Chapter 4 has light switches of a few kinds, including sun & moon themed ones, prophecy panels, & more.
Yet Ralsei's explanation says Dark Worlds are all illusions.
That when things get indistinct enough, they can allow you to see, hear & feel things again, thanks to Darkness, right?
Which is weird, even beyond scientific stuff like colour, glowing, gleaming & shining all being products of light. (The Glow Shards, Rudinns, etc.)
Perhaps those can be from Darkness lessening or morphing, maybe? Or intensifying, since it's causing illusions, supposedly.
....Except that same explanation is from before the end of Chapter 4 where Ralsei admits he's still been hiding information out of fear, & is one in which he makes a barely concealed Gaster reference. If Ralsei does know of Gaster, mentioning it has been avoided.
Consider this dialogue from revisiting where you meet Jackenstein & telling it a story (Which then makes the Pumpkin leave.):
Ralsei: "Well, once upon a time, there was a lonely kingdom.
And in it, there lived a prince...
... who had scarcely known anyone else. Until one day..."
Pumpkin: YOUR TAKING TOO LONG [Leaves]
Ralsei: "Okay..."
Ralsei had "scarcely" known anyone else. Not hadn't known anyone else at all, but presumably, having known someone, or multiple someones, just barely.
So
A: Ralsei knew of the heroes through the prophecy.
B. Ralsei knew of Gaster & is hiding that.
C. Someone/Something else?
Now consider the Chapter 4 prophecy again.
If Dark Worlds are all mere ephemeral illusions, how can that be?
To make a Dark World, strike the Earth, & after a burst of light -Why? Does Determination cause luminosity?- the Darkness spills out upwards & engulfing the area. "A WORLD BASKED IN PUREST LIGHT.
BENEATH IT GREW ETERNAL NIGHT."
Perhaps the Dark Worlds are born of the darkness released into the Light World, & it's that Darkness which is the "eternal night".
But then why is the Darkness still there? Why is it there at all? (To say nothing of how weird it would be under scrutiny. Imagine trying to dig seriously & you accidentally make a Dark World.)
Darkness is waiting to burst out, seemingly below any Light World surface. "Beneath it".
How can something so ever-present be illusory? Even just what's made from it being so illusory/ephemeral, why?
How could it be something that "grew beneath it", it being The Light World? Is it (The Darkness.) still growing beneath it?
& is the Darkness not in the Light World? Ralsei says "But when it gets dark...", & especially if the Light World has Darkness, can the Dark World not have Light?
"Take away the light that wasn't there"....
SURE, Ralsei.
If the Darkness is really a real thing in the Light World just usually not activated without Determination, then how "false" are the things born of it?
Are these transient worlds themselves really not real?
Pardon the long post, please. But yeah. I think it's evident Ralsei is STILL hiding more information from us. Or at least, hasn't revealed it, or has misrepresented it.
We don't really have a way to directly compare them, but based on feats, Undertale still scales higher. Personally I think they're comparable but that's my headcanon. Gerson is def fast though.
Forget speed, I don't know what a pulsar cannon would be in general. Obviously it's a Toby Fox gag so he probably just used pulsar as a cool sounding science buzzword without much thought. A pulsar is a star that rotates very quickly and fires out streams of high intensity photons. If the name is supposed to refer to the streams that a pulsar ejects, it would be the speed of light, but I'd be strongly against using this as evidence because it is a joke and nothing about it is in any way related to actual pulsars.
Forget speed, I don't know what a pulsar cannon would be in general. Obviously it's a Toby Fox gag so he probably just used pulsar as a cool sounding science buzzword without much thought. A pulsar is a star that rotates very quickly and fires out streams of high intensity photons. If the name is supposed to refer to the streams that a pulsar ejects, it would be the speed of light, but I'd be strongly against using this as evidence because it is a joke and nothing about it is in any way related to actual pulsars.
Like, I hate raining on folks's parade about this, but the manual supposedly went unused, at least, the readable parts of it.
The pages are textures or image files in some old versions of the game's folders, IIRC.
Since its unused content, using stuff from it is a bit sketchy by our standards/policies, IIRC; It's certain the Manual exists in Deltarune, but what's not certain is that its contents are that of those unused images.
On that note:
In the UNDERTALE 6th Anniversary stream, Toby Fox explains that he had considered making the Manual readable, but scrapped the idea. He also mentions that Temmie Chang recreated a physical version of the Manual.[2]
If we are to use the manual, though, Ralsei says on the page about Pulsar Cannons:
"Understanding a keyboard's layout is vital to any legendary hero. Please memorize the following table."
Also, it's a bit outdated, because the table contradicts later features, primarily those of the now also unused Wrist Protector, which is no longer obtained because its feature is automatically available, that being holding C to skip through text; Ralsei's manual's table says C is n/a ("Not applicable".) for Text.
But perhaps more relevantly, the manual is seemingly addressing the player, since it talks about their keyboard.
But on the other hand, it might be to The Delta Warriors, since it is about "my friends" & features lines like "Hello! I don't know who my friends are yet, but I'm so excited to meet you! I know the Dark World can be confusing, but I hope we can have a great time together!".
I guess it could be meant for The Delta Warriors AND The Player; Ralsei cares about the SOUL, but he also knows the prophecy well, & 1 of the heroes is The Cage With Human SOUL And Parts! So he probably doesn't expect to meet The Player/SOUL without also meeting "The Cage", AKA Kris.
But the point is, these being brought up in a keyboard controls table that may be addressed to The Player probably means they're something for The Player to control, even if they aren't a power of The Player's directly.
It seems certain they likely aren't in Kris's control.
& having attacks at that speed doesn't mean having those speed of reflexes, especially when seemingly no one reacts to them & the attacks are out of their control. Nor is it likely they move at that speed. (& that's assuming the lasers & explosions on an in-universe display screen ARE that fast.)
As for the effects itself, the explosion locations don't seem to follow much rhyme or reason, & I'm not sure if the lasers do either, considering they seemingly appear at random elevations & go randomly left or right.
They also only appear on one screen in a mini-game, & don't cause any visible destruction.
On a more upbeat note, though, turns out another of Chapter 3's several manual references is another feat for The Annoying Dog:
During Chapter 3, page 7 of the Manual is referenced during the Rouxls Kaard fight. It depicts the Annoying Dog battle option, which can occur when idling long enough during the Rouxls fight.
The Annoying Dog's button appears in Rouxls Kaard's encounter after 33 seconds (1000 frames), which replaces Lancer's ACT button.[5] Selecting it depicts the Annoying Dog joining the battle with a Super Smash Bros.-esque "challenger approaching" screen and then leaving immediately.[6]
Not to mention, given the previous video saying "When playing the cooking minigame for the very first time", that means:
A. It can only be done if one hasn't had any resets from failing the Minigame (due to low popularity.) already.
B. It can only be done if one has no Chapter 3 completion data.
C. Something else?
Why it has this restriction, IDK.
Was Toby Fox trying to make it so that we might notice the Pulsar Cannons firing out of the corner of our eye during the hectic minigame & so then we'd later doubt ourselves when we remember it on future plays yet couldn't replicate it???
I'm not sure the "casual one shot" is entirely true. It's definitely possible to survive most attacks when DEFENDing, especially with good equipment, Shadow Mantle or not, & Susie, with good Equipment, can throw out a Rude Buster (Thus not having been DEFENDing.) & survive a hit from around full HP or slightly less, even from stuff like Tracking Swords or the fierce winds.
The -999 is also a bit suspect as evidence of stats, especially if it's possible to not get one-shot when UP; We see it get called SWOON when it occurs, as opposed to DOWN when a normal DOWNing happens; The different name suggests a different effect, & this is backed up by SWOON disabling passive healing/Regeneration that normally occurs while DOWN.
I definitely do think The Knight is superior. At the start, The Delta Warriors have their damage dealt reduced to 20%, & they regain 1% per turn (0.5% per turn on Rude Buster, IIRC.), for up to 15 turns, up to a maximum of 35%. So maybe they're just unnerved?
But ultimately, they only do 20% of its HP, Susie is in disbelief that they won before she gets arrogant, & evidently, even a casual Knight is holding back, considering that after it sees even its spectacular Hyper-Goner-esque charged up final move fail, it just takes them out in a cutscene, maybe while they're off-guard, maybe it's just hitting really hard.
& of course, there's the case that it was holding back less, or even not at all with the cutscene attack, because The Knight wouldn't have to worry about hitting Kris or the SOUL too hard that way.
It's also possible the one-shot threshold in Deltarune is very high.
Susie's threats were that it can't beat them in the Light World & they just have to get past it. Considering The Knight abducted Undyne through the Light World, is physically much more unlike a Lightner than Kris, Susie, Noelle & Berdly, suggesting it may be unlike Lightners & whatnot that they understand, & it had the option of just making a Titan there to impede them, I think it's reasonable to believe it was laughing because of those reasons.
Not to mention, it spends all of Chapter 4 attacking from a distance, while they're helpless climbing, or literally in the dark. Though I can believe this is just pragmatism, even if it isn't some sort of bizarre goading tactic or something. I don't believe The Delta Warriors are at all close to The Knight's equals, but if there's any risk, why take the chance?
It may be worth noting that Kris seems to normally be holding back against Tenna; They do about triple damage to him with ATTACKs after completing the Sword Route. A possible reason for this is The Sword Route is where Tenna blabs about a deal, collaborating with Kris & The Knight, & in doing so, informs the SOUL; Kris could be doing extra damage via Rage Power.
But I can believe Tenna being superior to each Delta Warrior individually, even if Kris is holding back.
FWIW, Weird Route Spamton NEO probably is one where Kris did get serious, just because they don't use X-Slash anywhere else & Spamton was not only obstructing the Fountain but after the SOUL, which Kris may seem bitter towards at times, but ironically enough, I'd say, also seems possessive of. Some think there's a correlation between X-Slash & the post-Knight SWOON slash, due to the SFX seemingly being speed-altered versions of the same sound, but I don't think that the SFX stuff is evidence we can officially use yet, even if there might be a case based on X-Slash.
But yes, Kris definitely couldn't get past the Blue Light Specil alone, & Spamton Neo being a superboss otherwise.
IIRC, it's a stack of cars.
Sorry for any bother with this long response of mine. Besides what I said, I don't think I have other issues to bring up about your rankings.
Damn buddy what's with all your cope? The Knight is obviously way stronger than the Fun Gang, I think that you're really brainrotted by "Fraud Knight" memes
: 
