NEP2-5 question

[Dog3352]

I will be straight and fast.

A NEP2 character, which has no "plot" as a nonexistent aspect (or that this aspect does not even exist in cosmology), can be affected by plot hax without the plot has feats of affecting NEP2?

An example is the CRT of Anos vs Monika itself. Monika has its plot hax that can affect CM1, but Anos has NEP2 based on aspects such as CM and Info.
Anos doesn't have NEP2 based on plot aspect, could Monika affect Anos even without having feats to bypass NEP2 due to Anos not having plot aspect in his NEP?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

A NEP2 character, which has no "plot" as a nonexistent aspect (or that this aspect does not even exist in cosmology), can be affected by plot hax without the plot has feats of affecting NEP2?

Yes.

Regarding the 2nd issue, I think I explained my thoughts on it in the related thread.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

No, since character has immunity to Plot Manipulation.

 

[Voidnether]

I will be straight and fast.

A NEP2 character, which has no "plot" as a nonexistent aspect (or that this aspect does not even exist in cosmology), can be affected by plot hax without the plot has feats of affecting NEP2?

An example is the CRT of Anos vs Monika itself. Monika has its plot hax that can affect CM1, but Anos has NEP2 based on aspects such as CM and Info.
Anos doesn't have NEP2 based on plot aspect, could Monika affect Anos even without having feats to bypass NEP2 due to Anos not having plot aspect in his NEP?

To be honest, the interaction in NEP whether it be a Type 1, Type 2 or Type 3 for example — You only need NPI to Incorporeality in the slightest, since we knew that's what you need to interact NEP (Type 1) then NEP (Type 2) is just a matter of the character being neither existence or nonexistence hence the Nonduality but again: Nonduality doesn't have to be interacted, no? When they only give you the Immunity benefit (If it was stated/explained on the verse as one) and we have NEP (Type 3) that's just both existence and nonexistence as in they're a paradox in which they could occupy this state (existence), or this state (nonexistence).

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I will be straight and fast.

A NEP2 character, which has no "plot" as a nonexistent aspect (or that this aspect does not even exist in cosmology), can be affected by plot hax without the plot has feats of affecting NEP2?

A useful way to understand this is through the example of immunity.

For instance, if a character is immune to Reality Warping, typically by lacking the aspect of reality, such as through Nonexistent Physiology (NEP), then any direct reality-altering effects targeting them will not work.

However, this immunity does not prevent indirect effects; for example, reality warping could still be used to create fire, which could then harm the target if they lack resistance to fire. In the same way, having ‘No Plot’ as an aspect via NEP would only prevent direct plot-based manipulations (i.e., “plot hax”), but indirect effects achieved through Plot Manipulation could still affect the character, provided they interact via appropriate Non-Physical Interaction.

Conversely, with NEP Type 2, if a being is nonexistent in body, soul, or other respects, but their mind still exists, they could still be subject to mind manipulation even without direct interaction with their nonexistent body. They wouldn't need interaction feet, since the character's mind was already interacting and controlling their non-existent body. Likewise, a being nonexistent in mind, body, and soul could still have its history manipulated, as history remains an existing aspect. Ultimately, the specifics depend on what the Plot Manipulation attempts to affect.

If Plot Manipulation is used for Existence Erasure, the attempt would fail if the target has EE resistance or NEP, since EE via Plot Manipulation can be resisted on those grounds. However, if Plot Manipulation allows the user to impose “fated” outcomes, then it functions similarly to mind control or historical manipulation.

In summary, the effectiveness of Plot Manipulation against beings with NEP or other immunities depends entirely on what the Plot Manipulation is going to do.

 

[Orioreeem]

What if narrative does not exist in the series, but in the same series it is stated that a character can just exist with for example his concept and that he doesn't need anything else and can still act from it. Would plot ee that destroys his narrative completly destroy that character even tho that character still has his concept and can act with just it?
What if he doesn't even need the concept as well? Like acting from his NEP state?

A useful way to understand this is through the example of immunity.

For instance, if a character is immune to Reality Warping, typically by lacking the aspect of reality, such as through Nonexistent Physiology (NEP), then any direct reality-altering effects targeting them will not work.

However, this immunity does not prevent indirect effects; for example, reality warping could still be used to create fire, which could then harm the target if they lack resistance to fire. In the same way, having ‘No Plot’ as an aspect via NEP would only prevent direct plot-based manipulations (i.e., “plot hax”), but indirect effects achieved through Plot Manipulation could still affect the character, provided they interact via appropriate Non-Physical Interaction.

Conversely, with NEP Type 2, if a being is nonexistent in body, soul, or other respects, but their mind still exists, they could still be subject to mind manipulation even without direct interaction with their nonexistent body. They wouldn't need interaction feet, since the character's mind was already interacting and controlling their non-existent body. Likewise, a being nonexistent in mind, body, and soul could still have its history manipulated, as history remains an existing aspect. Ultimately, the specifics depend on what the Plot Manipulation attempts to affect.

If Plot Manipulation is used for Existence Erasure, the attempt would fail if the target has EE resistance or NEP, since EE via Plot Manipulation can be resisted on those grounds. However, if Plot Manipulation allows the user to impose “fated” outcomes, then it functions similarly to mind control or historical manipulation.

In summary, the effectiveness of Plot Manipulation against beings with NEP or other immunities depends entirely on what the Plot Manipulation is going to do.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

What if narrative does not exist in the series, but in the same series it is stated that a character can just exist with for example his concept and that he doesn't need anything else and can still act from it. Would plot ee that destroys his narrative completly destroy that character even tho that character still has his concept and can act with just it?
What if he doesn't even need the concept as well? Like acting from his NEP state?

It depends on the nature of the narrative within the verse. In some settings, the narrative encompasses concepts; in others, concepts encompass the narrative.

What matters is that since the narrative is required for existence, then its absence should be treated as equivalent to removing an important component for existence itself. For example, it does not matter whether a character is existent or nonexistent: if causality does not exist, they cannot interact with anything. Similarly, if the narrative serves as the underlying basis of the story, then its removal effectively erases the entire story.

In such a scenario, anything that relies on the narrative to occur simply cannot take place. This is comparable to the idea that, if space were erased, matter manipulation would become impossible, regardless of whether that matter manipulation is immune to power nullification.

Essentially, it is necessary to determine what becomes impossible in the absence of the narrative. This varies from verse to verse and also what is encompassed by the narrative itself. Whatever persists after the narrative is erased represents what is not governed by the narrative, and may allow a Nonexistent Physiology (NEP) being to continue acting through those remaining aspects.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

A useful way to understand this is through the example of immunity.

For instance, if a character is immune to Reality Warping, typically by lacking the aspect of reality, such as through Nonexistent Physiology (NEP), then any direct reality-altering effects targeting them will not work.

However, this immunity does not prevent indirect effects; for example, reality warping could still be used to create fire, which could then harm the target if they lack resistance to fire. In the same way, having ‘No Plot’ as an aspect via NEP would only prevent direct plot-based manipulations (i.e., “plot hax”), but indirect effects achieved through Plot Manipulation could still affect the character, provided they interact via appropriate Non-Physical Interaction.

Conversely, with NEP Type 2, if a being is nonexistent in body, soul, or other respects, but their mind still exists, they could still be subject to mind manipulation even without direct interaction with their nonexistent body. They wouldn't need interaction feet, since the character's mind was already interacting and controlling their non-existent body. Likewise, a being nonexistent in mind, body, and soul could still have its history manipulated, as history remains an existing aspect. Ultimately, the specifics depend on what the Plot Manipulation attempts to affect.

If Plot Manipulation is used for Existence Erasure, the attempt would fail if the target has EE resistance or NEP, since EE via Plot Manipulation can be resisted on those grounds. However, if Plot Manipulation allows the user to impose “fated” outcomes, then it functions similarly to mind control or historical manipulation.

In summary, the effectiveness of Plot Manipulation against beings with NEP or other immunities depends entirely on what the Plot Manipulation is going to do.

and if the NEP being is some sort of metaphysical aspect like a NEP concept (slay the princess for example) then plot manip wouldnt work unless it has proper feats

 

[Orioreeem]

It depends on the nature of the narrative within the verse. In some settings, the narrative encompasses concepts; in others, concepts encompass the narrative.

What matters is that since the narrative is required for existence, then its absence should be treated as equivalent to removing an important component for existence itself. For example, it does not matter whether a character is existent or nonexistent: if causality does not exist, they cannot interact with anything. Similarly, if the narrative serves as the underlying basis of the story, then its removal effectively erases the entire story.

In such a scenario, anything that relies on the narrative to occur simply cannot take place. This is comparable to the idea that, if space were erased, matter manipulation would become impossible, regardless of whether that matter manipulation is immune to power nullification.

Essentially, it is necessary to determine what becomes impossible in the absence of the narrative. This varies from verse to verse and also what is encompassed by the narrative itself. Whatever persists after the narrative is erased represents what is not governed by the narrative, and may allow a Nonexistent Physiology (NEP) being to continue acting through those remaining aspects.

So what happens if in verse that has plot hax concepts aren't mentioned? We don't know how they would interact with each other. Or layered NEP for example, the verse with plot hax only has one layer of nep while the verse which does not have plot hax has deeper nep state. How does plot hax intaract then? Since the verse with plot hax doesn't have 2 layered nonexistent concept we would not know wether that would stay after plot hax erasure.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

So what happens if in verse that has plot hax concepts aren't mentioned? We don't know how they would interact with each other. Or layered NEP for example, the verse with plot hax only has one layer of nep while the verse which does not have plot hax has deeper nep state. How does plot hax intaract then? Since the verse with plot hax doesn't have 2 layered nonexistent concept we would not know wether that would stay after plot hax erasure.

If the narrative isn't stated to include Concepts, we don't assume it does. As for how they interact, it's as I said. The NEP being who has their Narrative erased, would be unable to do anything that relies on the narrative to happen. Anything outside of that, they can still do.

 

[Orioreeem]

If the narrative isn't stated to include Concepts, we don't assume it does. As for how they interact, it's as I said. The NEP being who has their Narrative erased, would be unable to do anything that relies on the narrative to happen. Anything outside of that, they can still do.

So let me get this strait.
Let's say in verse with plot hax character being in one layer of NEP relies on narrative to happen. In other verse character has two layers of nep(his nep is deeper then the nep of plot hax verse) and can act from that state. We wouldn't aasume that being in two layered nep state relies on narrative and would be able to exist without it?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Let's say in verse with plot hax character being in one layer of NEP relies on narrative to happen. In other verse character has two layers of nep(his nep is deeper then the nep of plot hax verse) and can act from that state. We wouldn't aasume that being in two layered nep state relies on narrative and would be able to exist without it?

It doesn't matter how deep your NEP is if the thing you're trying to do doesn't exist.

You can be infinite layers into NEP, but if causality doesn't exist, you're not going to be able to do anything, unless you have evidence you can act with causality as a nonexistent aspect.

You can be beyond infinite layers into NEP, but if someone changes your past, to make it so you never gain that ability, then you're going to lose it, unless you have time as a nonexistent aspect.

Likewise, if someone erases your narrative, then you're not going to be able to do anything related to what that narrative encompasses, even if some aspect of you still survives the erasure.

 

[Orioreeem]

It doesn't matter how deep your NEP is if the thing you're trying to do doesn't exist.

You can be infinite layers into NEP, but if causality doesn't exist, you're not going to be able to do anything, unless you have evidence you can act with causality as a nonexistent aspect.

You can be beyond infinite layers into NEP, but if someone changes your past, to make it so you never gain that ability, then you're going to lose it, unless you have time as a nonexistent aspect.

Likewise, if someone erases your narrative, then you're not going to be able to do anything related to what that narrative encompasses, even if some aspect of you still survives the erasure.

One more question if you don't mind then. If a character is stated to lack the concept of caudality is it the same as lacking causality?

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

One more question if you don't mind then. If a character is stated to lack the concept of caudality is it the same as lacking causality?

Yes

 

[Voidnether]

and if the NEP being is some sort of metaphysical aspect like a NEP concept (slay the princess for example) then plot manip wouldnt work unless it has proper feats

Plot still works, there's no way to assume the otherwise except if that NEP concept simply governs the plot too

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Plot still works, there's no way to assume the otherwise except if that NEP concept simply governs the plot too

No? Plot wont work on concepts unless it has feats of doing so. As metaphysical aspects have no assumed hierarchy of encompassing one another.

 

[Dog3352]

A useful way to understand this is through the example of immunity.

For instance, if a character is immune to Reality Warping, typically by lacking the aspect of reality, such as through Nonexistent Physiology (NEP), then any direct reality-altering effects targeting them will not work.

However, this immunity does not prevent indirect effects; for example, reality warping could still be used to create fire, which could then harm the target if they lack resistance to fire. In the same way, having ‘No Plot’ as an aspect via NEP would only prevent direct plot-based manipulations (i.e., “plot hax”), but indirect effects achieved through Plot Manipulation could still affect the character, provided they interact via appropriate Non-Physical Interaction.

Conversely, with NEP Type 2, if a being is nonexistent in body, soul, or other respects, but their mind still exists, they could still be subject to mind manipulation even without direct interaction with their nonexistent body. They wouldn't need interaction feet, since the character's mind was already interacting and controlling their non-existent body. Likewise, a being nonexistent in mind, body, and soul could still have its history manipulated, as history remains an existing aspect. Ultimately, the specifics depend on what the Plot Manipulation attempts to affect.

If Plot Manipulation is used for Existence Erasure, the attempt would fail if the target has EE resistance or NEP, since EE via Plot Manipulation can be resisted on those grounds. However, if Plot Manipulation allows the user to impose “fated” outcomes, then it functions similarly to mind control or historical manipulation.

In summary, the effectiveness of Plot Manipulation against beings with NEP or other immunities depends entirely on what the Plot Manipulation is going to do.

The case of Anos vs Monika specifically is that Monika is able to affect things like CM1 and Info2 with your plot.

Meanwhile, Anos can remain existing only with his source, his source is literally nonexistent and lacks CM1 and Info2.

Would Monika be able to circumvent this Nep with her plot hax and affect the source of Anos?

By the way, Anos has resistance to all that Monika's plot hax is able to do (Info2, cm1, reality warping, etc), except for plot hax and data manipulation.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

One more question if you don't mind then. If a character is stated to lack the concept of caudality is it the same as lacking causality?

Yes.

The case of Anos vs Monika specifically is that Monika is able to affect things like CM1 and Info2 with your plot.

Meanwhile, Anos can remain existing only with his source, his source is literally nonexistent and lacks CM1 and Info2.

If Monika tries to use Conceptual Manipulation or Information Manipulation through Plot Manipulation, it won't work. The source being plot doesn't suddenly make those nonexistent aspects existent.

Would Monika be able to circumvent this Nep with her plot hax and affect the source of Anos?

By the way, Anos has resistance to all that Monika's plot hax is able to do (Info2, cm1, reality warping), except for plot hax and data manipulation.

As I said before, it depends on what she actually does with the Plot Manipualtion.

 

[Dog3352]

If Monika tries to use Conceptual Manipulation or Information Manipulation through Plot Manipulation, it won't work. The source being plot doesn't suddenly make those nonexistent aspects existent.

Well, Anos has resistance to literally all that Monika is based on plot hax (with the only exception being data manipulation), besides having her NEP2 that also covers all her skills, so I believe she can't basically do anything to the source of Anos?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

DDLC Concept Manip Removal

(The world of "Doki Doki Literature Club!" is a simulated universe meant to mimic the real one, and is made of data that both shapes its information and governs its reality, something that Monika has learned to manipulate on a Kernel level and allows her to destroy, re-create and modify said...

vsbattles.com

anyways im gonna shamelessly shill since this stuff reminded me of something

 

[Dog3352]

DDLC Concept Manip Removal

(The world of "Doki Doki Literature Club!" is a simulated universe meant to mimic the real one, and is made of data that both shapes its information and governs its reality, something that Monika has learned to manipulate on a Kernel level and allows her to destroy, re-create and modify said...

vsbattles.com

anyways im gonna shamelessly shill since this stuff reminded me of something

Damn...

 

[Voidnether]

No? Plot wont work on concepts unless it has feats of doing so. As metaphysical aspects have no assumed hierarchy of encompassing one another.

It would work, why wouldn't it work when the NEP's scope is only limited to concept?? Spaceman literally said if it's concept manipulation through plot then it wouldn't even work, which is literally what you're saying right now with the "unless it has feats of doing so" implies it would work when it wouldn't

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

It would work, why wouldn't it work when the NEP's scope is only limited to concept?? Spaceman literally said if it's concept manipulation through plot then it wouldn't even work, which is literally what you're saying right now with the "unless it has feats of doing so" implies it would work when it wouldn't

I meant as in the concept having NEP not as in having NEP in respects to lacking concepts.

 

[Voidnether]

I meant as in the concept having NEP not as in having NEP in respects to lacking concepts.

I mean if it's like that wouldn't plot still work since it outscales what the concept governs??

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I mean if it's like that wouldn't plot still work since it outscales what the concept governs??

Plot would only work if it encompasses concepts. Plot doesn't do that by default.

 

[Voidnether]

Plot would only work if it encompasses concepts. Plot doesn't do that by default.

All metaphysical aspects aren't obviously by default, but it can be boiled down to be this simple in which it could work for the otherwise

Metaphysical aspects are limited by what they govern, if they govern this but they don't govern this metaphysical aspect then it's over (they're still getting hit by that metaphysical aspect). In which this would be like plot governing any metaphysical aspect except concept or concept governing any metaphysical aspect except for plot, what reason is there to assume that the same plot that doesn't even cover concept manip would be immune to that?

It's like acausality type 5 still being limited by its scope, for example a causality that doesn't inherently cover concept could still be hit by concept simply because its causality (in which the acausality type 5 guy is independent to) just doesn't cover it at all

 

[Enter_Bluey]

For reference on whatever is decided here, Monika can erase you from all the aspects that her ability covers. So plot, info, data, concept (which may or may not go). Everything she does affects all of those at once. So ur basically erased not just from history but from the narrative to the point it doesn't even recognize your character.

The erasure is one of the byproducts/uses of manipulating these(so history, space-time, plot, info).Other than erasure, off the top of my head I think messing with their emotions, time and causality, memories, and can corrupt those aspects (files). And negate nep of those aspects

There's more explained on her profile tho, it's pretty well written out for a better understanding on it. But yeah, she can manipulate you and your actions as part of the narrative as well

 

[Fixxed]

Are it can affect the character? Yes
Are it can affect the NEP's nature? No

What if for affect the character you must first reach his NEP's nature? Then the plot must have a proof about affecting that

But the plot can affect the character's external plot that doesnt participate in the NEP's nature

The thing is aspect in NEP is about participate in the nonexistence state