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Anos vs Monika (DDLC)

Fixxed said:
Does her plot can affect infinitely layer of NEP 2?
Click to expand...
Pretty sure infinitely layered NEP in aspects other than plot do not make you resist/be unaffected by Plot Manipulation.

Such as, for example, how infinitely layered NEP on soul aspect does not make you resist/be unaffected by conceptual manipulation.

Because they are completely separated things
 
JustANormalPerson01 said:
Pretty sure infinitely layered NEP in aspects other than plot do not make you resist/be unaffected by Plot Manipulation.

Such as, for example, how infinitely layered NEP on soul aspect does not make you resist/be unaffected by conceptual manipulation.

Because they are completely separated things
Click to expand...
But how does she affect aspects that aren't plot? None of you have answered that
 
While I am staying fully neutral in this debate.... I can't ignore this...
Enter_Bluey said:
Monika plot hax on very monitor karnal excess solos MGK we can debate. Plot > misfits. so concept of misfits logical manipulationss get erased by Monika plot deny even on first thought. Thiis is not account Twitter accounts monikai who is reganarare hersself on the esxistence, she easily erase MGK and delet the concept of silver sea
Click to expand...
This is the exact thing I made an entire thread about.

"Plot hax" are not supiror to concept hax, information hax, or even reality warping. They are all the same potency.
There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involved clarifies how the interaction between the metaphysical aspects works.
Click to expand...
source

This thing is what my entire thread was about.

So what I am trying to say here is that plot manipulation does not automatically gain superiority over other metaphysical concepts. Plot manipulation also does not gain the ability to manipulate logic by default.
 
Dark_Soul20189 said:
While I am staying fully neutral in this debate.... I can't ignore this...

This is the exact thing I made an entire thread about.

"Plot hax" are not supiror to concept hax, information hax, or even reality warping. They are all the same potency.

source

This thing is what my entire thread was about.

So what I am trying to say here is that plot manipulation does not automatically gain superiority over other metaphysical concepts. Plot manipulation also does not gain the ability to manipulate logic by default.
Click to expand...
Not really interested in the thread but yeah this is a thing. I'm pretty sure I have seen comments from DT also regarding this case. Plot manipulation doesn't automatically give superiority over other aspects.
 
Pretty sure no one here is arguing that Plot Manipulation is superior to other aspects, but that Anos, who has no resistance nor ability that lets him overcome Plot Manipulation, is affected by Plot Manipulation.

Edit: Nvm, some people is. Yeah, that's wrong

Also, from what I remember seeing in other vs threads, erasing a character from an aspect they don't have NEP was enough to defeat them. Reason why Monika erasing Anos from the plot should be enough. Basically:

Monika erases Anos' character file. Anos' concept, information and yada yada still "work" due to his NEP. But since one of his fundamental aspects (Plot) was erased and he does not have anything to supply from that, then he loses per NEP standards (Anos is reduced to nonexistence type 5 [Plot], where he cannot display any properties of something that exist per lack of feats)
 
Last edited:
JustANormalPerson01 said:
Pretty sure no one here is arguing that Plot Manipulation is superior to other aspects, but that Anos, who has no resistance nor ability that lets him overcome Plot Manipulation, is affected by Plot Manipulation.

Edit: Nvm, some people is. Yeah, that's wrong

Also, from what I remember seeing in other vs threads, erasing a character from an aspect they don't have NEP was enough to defeat them. Reason why Monika erasing Anos from the plot should be enough. Basically:

Monika erases Anos' character file. Anos' concept, information and yada yada still "work" due to his NEP. But since one of his fundamental aspects (Plot) was erased and he does not have anything to supply from that, then he loses per NEP standards (Anos is reduced to nonexistence type 5 [Plot], where he cannot display any properties of something that exist per lack of feats)
Click to expand...
This is wrong, the aspects to which a character is nonexistent is what makes them technically not erased or alive.

It's like saying erasing someone's nonexistent soul is enough to permanently end them when that person only requires either their mind, concept or information to operate. Anos literally only requires his source to be there and he is still technically alive, can use his abilities, think and operate in any way or form.
Monika lacks the means to affect any of his other aspects nor overcome his resistances. If you check the thread I linked you'll see one does not need to resist the cause of an ability to resist it's effect. One does not need to resist plot manipulation to resist abilities done through manipulating the plot same as one doesn't need to resist conceptual manipulation to resist death manipulation done through conceptual manipulation.

The thread is an FRA train because plot manipulation. Monika cannot be erased, fear, sleep haxed despite having no resistances because strym says so. Despite only having Low 2-C range, she can erase a cosmology that's beyond 2-A, she can interact with ad infinitum NEP aspects because "plot manipulation". Add on ignoring the fact that she doesn't start in a NEP state and for some reason Anos NEP 2 erasure cannot affect her because she is NEP.
 
StrymULTRA said:
All of his aspects are Ad Infinitum EXCEPT the plot one.

Ever heard of Achilles' tendon?
Click to expand...
The thing is the plot cannot reach his NEP nature

And bruh the same question can be asked to monika. Arnos can destroy infinitely layer NEP 2 of information and concept from destroy graham's nothingness. And monika doesnt resist that in her profile.. how can she tank that?
 
JustANormalPerson01 said:
Also, from what I remember seeing in other vs threads, erasing a character from an aspect they don't have NEP was enough to defeat them.
Click to expand...
Well....
Fixxed said:
And bruh the same question can be asked to monika. Arnos can destroy infinitely layer NEP 2 of information and concept from destroy graham's nothingness. And monika doesnt resist that in her profile.. how can she tank that?
Click to expand...
 
With what and what good would that do when he can decide to operate as an abstract existence?
 
But he can't do that! His decisions are all part of the plot, and there's no proof that Misfit treats its concepts as above the plot!
 
Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have a nonexistent one. Examples would include things like lacking a history. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile, together with any detail regarding what it makes them immune to.
Click to expand...
Anos does not have this
 
The thing that Anos supporters don't understand is that Monika does not have to target Anos himself, but the plot that he's beneath (and hasn't shown proof to be unbound to).

Also, she has 2-C range, not Low 2-C.
 
Driving in my car
Right after a beer
Hey that bump
Is shaped like a generic MC
DUI?
How about you die
I'LL MAKE YOU PULL A SAYORI!!!
Little do you know,
You still have the Plot aspect
Ima get your demon lord ass
PLOT HAX THIS ****
With my lil coding
It seems you're out of luck
PLOT!!!
 
StrymULTRA said:
Driving in my car
Right after a beer
Hey that bump
Is shaped like a generic MC
DUI?
How about you die
I'LL MAKE YOU PULL A SAYORI!!!
Little do you know,
You still have the Plot aspect
Ima get your demon lord ass
PLOT HAX THIS ****
With my lil coding
It seems you're out of luck
PLOT!!!
Click to expand...
Holy hell dude relax
 
That aside, is it really down to 'can monika do this with plot manip' because I really don't feel like the circumstances with this match allow anos to take advantage of his NE erasure here, or being able to destroy her to an extent that N.C.A regeneration immortality she has becomes a thing to where he wins (as if he couldn't destroy high-godly anyways)

I don't see Anos doing all that for.. (or taking the killing route) for what would look like an average looking athletic school girl
 
Ruler_Star_Kuma said:
is it really down to 'can monika do this with plot manip'
Click to expand...
Monika with her plot hax can do stuff like change endings, lobotomize people, making them super depressed and/or suicidal, or straight up brainwash 'em as shown in the game.

I do think these are decent incap options.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Monika with her plot hax can do stuff like change endings, lobotomize people, making them super depressed and/or suicidal, or straight up brainwash 'em as shown in the game.

I do think these are decent incap options.
Click to expand...
Monika's stuff is thought-based, right? It's been some time since I've seen DDLC (and know very little of the additions thanks to +) but from what I could remember with the scene of her deleting Natsuki and Yuri the deletion wasn't an instant thing iirc was it? (Though I also assume there was/is cases where it can be assumed she uses her powers in said instant fashion that I do not recall)
 
Ruler_Star_Kuma said:
Monika's stuff is thought-based, right? It's been some time since I've seen DDLC (and know very little of the additions thanks to +) but from what I could remember with the scene of her deleting Natsuki and Yuri the deletion wasn't an instant thing iirc was it? (Though I also assume there was/is cases where it can be assumed she uses her powers in said instant fashion that I do not recall)
Click to expand...
Monika's stuff is assumed to be thought-based as she never uses any physical movement to do that.

The Natsuki/Yuri stuff is just a visual effect to show how her power works if anything, as through the whole of Act 2 otherwise it never shows, same in Act 4 where she incapacitates Sayori or deletes her own file if you try to put it back in the folder in Act 4. So ye, it's instant.
 
StrymULTRA said:
The Natsuki/Yuri stuff is just a visual effect to show how her power works if anything, as through the whole of Act 2 otherwise it never shows, same in Act 4 where she incapacitates Sayori or deletes her own file if you try to put it back in the folder in Act 4.
Click to expand...
I'd argue that 'visual effect' is more than being just that (or even showing that there's a timeframe of some sort as in deletion taking a bit despite her stuff being thought-based) considering how throughout the entire game the fact she wasn't doing anything was pretty much a guise (plus would've been too out there to show to otherwise ruin it) or even the incapping sayori bit with how she's still speaking even while in the middle of being deleting saying 'it hurts' buuuuuuuut..

I'm not that argumentative to go about the deleting her own file bit (plus I'm sure sayori essentially did her own in a matter of what may as well be instant with the one scene of what happens if monika is deleted as act 1 starts) so just shuts me down right there, LOL. Ironic how the moment of either of them taking themselves out supplements it- ddlc do certainly be a game..

No resistance to plot however is most definitely a wall. Considering Anos is in-character but still wanting to win through SBA I'd just assume the best argument to be made is through an incap option if killing her doesn't sound like the first thing he'd do (and that's among the literal many options he could use for her physical body first and the little there is to take her out in a manner where the over-time HGR kicks in).
 
Ruler_Star_Kuma said:
(and that's among the literal many options he could use for her physical body first and the little there is to take her out in a manner where the over-time HGR kicks in).
Click to expand...
I almost said that taking out her source (concept) with any of his spells and being faster than her would help aid the killing route accomplishment BUT.. speed equalized, lmao.
 
Ruler_Star_Kuma said:
I'd argue that 'visual effect' is more than being just that (or even showing that there's a timeframe of some sort as in deletion taking a bit despite her stuff being thought-based) considering how throughout the entire game the fact she wasn't doing anything was pretty much a guise (plus would've been too out there to show to otherwise ruin it) or even the incapping sayori bit with how she's still speaking even while in the middle of being deleting saying 'it hurts' buuuuuuuut..
Click to expand...
I could've brought up the whole Act 2 thing where she restarts the whole program and rewrites the game at the beginning of Act 3 without any coding input too, but whatever.
 
StrymULTRA said:
without any coding input too, but whatever.
Click to expand...
What I was saying is less about coding input (which there is that of course) but moreso the inference of time with using her ability even when she can use it with a thought rather than any external movements.

But like I said, there's other things to where it doesn't seem like that way at all (like the sayori deleting herself thing mentioned before).
 
I mean if Anos can act just from his root(which Monika can't touch so she can't use any mind manipulation on him wether normal or plot based) and doesn't need plot aspect to act then he wins. But I am uncertain on what our standards are on this. Tho even if we assume she can manipulate plot to make him act certain way he can still just act according to what root decides. She can't touch root so she can't tell root to act like she wants.
Voting Anos for now
 
Voting for Monika. Her nonexistent physiology includes aspect 5 which means Anos can't erase her. Anos' resistance to erasure won't help him since Monika erases him from the plot.
 
Monika has like 20 votes at this point doesnt she?
 
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