I think we're talking past each other a bit, so let me clarify the core issue — it's not just whether Bowser or anyone else used 100% of a Grand Star’s power, but whether their feats logically scale to a significant portion of that energy while empowered, which is a consistent standard across the wiki in similar contexts.
That isn't how this works. You need to prove they used energy equal to the energy used for the feat in question.
A significant portion is vague, what defines a significant? How do we know? Is 1% a lot? I'd say it's a lot if it's a limited power source, like anymore and you'd run out fast. Or would you say 50%? Well 50% would be what, two attacks? It being limited complicates things.
And that's rhetorical, we do not know, unless we have a statement saying something, at the very least, like "most of", but in that case, sure fine, but you'd still need such a line to prove it.
It isn't a consistent standard, please stop talking about verses you don't partake in while framing it as "they do it, so we can too", not only do two wrongs not make a right, but those verses actually have statements and showings.
Why do we need to prove so?
Because otherwise it's guesswork, conjecture, and not at all fact? We're supposed to index what's actually the case, not what we feel
which is why Jotaro will never be 8-B.
May as well ask why you need to prove Mario is actually tier 0 and why we can't just rate him that way, because we need proof, because that's how the wiki works.
Again, the VS Battles Wiki doesn’t require a character to explicitly use 100% of an artifact’s power to scale
We actually do. Or at least something similar to it, it's for the very reason Metroid Prime 2 got downgraded, there was no proof Emperor Ing could use all of Aether's light in a meaningful way, and the very fact he could constantly use it despite it being a limited power source, much like a Grand Star, indirectly proves he wasn't using it all.
— only that their actions are demonstrably fueled by that power and that the effects align with a meaningful portion of its output.
So prove it then.
Otherwise, by that logic, Sonic wouldn’t scale to the full Chaos Emeralds unless he was confirmed to be at 100%, which we don’t always get either.
Which is why we don't always scale Sonic to the full output of the Chaos Emeralds? Like, it's why Sonic is only tier 4 to 2 in some cases while Super Sonic, even though the peak is like tier 1. He's only ever used the full power like once.
The point is the feats still reflect a massive energy source.
Using 0.00000001% of a tier 3 power source would still come off as impressive in a vacuum.
Even if the feats fall short of full-on 4-A in isolation, they’re clearly far above Bowser’s usual capabilities, and they happen only while he's powered by a Grand Star.
Well yeah? He's still using it to amp himself, the question is by how much.
We know for a fact he isn't using the whole of it at any single time because if he did, he'd get one attack off and then it'd be empty and need to get thrown away.
If anything, the Grand Star’s energy allows for a wide potential range of feats, and not all of them must express the full 4-A output. Partial scaling is valid if the character’s output logically derives from the same power source.
See that's the problem, partial scaling, you need to figure out what that "partial" is, is it 1%? 10%? 0.00000001%? It could be ANYTHING between Koops' base, and the Grand Star's general ballpark, hence we need proof.
This is how we treat characters using Chaos Emeralds or the Triforce when not explicitly shown.
It literally isn't.
I actively **** with Zelda, it's the verse I've put the most time into on this wiki even, I have literally hundreds of hours of clips, footage, spent hundreds of dollars on niche japanese guides, and all this other shit to work on what is probably my most elaborate project on forum.
I partake in every Zelda CRT I'm aware and have even been apart of the very threads that dealt with scaling the Triforce, in fact I'm basically why Ganon scales to that shit, I argued extensively for it.
And I can tell you right now, that ISN'T what we do. Only Ganon scales to the full Triforce, he's the only character on wiki who does, and it's in part because there's multiple statements saying he does. Other characters who have had it briefly, do not. And that's without getting into other artifacts that amp things, the Fused Shadow? Mirror of Twilight? The Triforce pieces? Majora's power (MM3D bosses are explicitly amped by him according to Miiverse HMSM lore), Malice/Gloom, Force Gems, and all these other things? Just having them doesn't mean they scale to its peak output, most of them time they usually don't.
Stop saying it, it's wrong, misleading, and actively frames other verses in a bad light for a practice they simply do not do.
The Triforce feat? Is done
by Ganon, so yeah obviously Ganon scales to his own feat with it. That doesn't tackle the fact he very explicitly makes use of its full power because they say so multiple times directly. And same goes with Void, he even straight up explains what he's gonna do with it in excessive detail.
And Chaos Emeralds we also don't do that, in fact we only scale characters and bosses to the feats they themselves perform while having them, not to feats anyone else does while having them, because the Chaos Emeralds change power depending on outside conditions.
Okay, but that’s not what we're arguing. We're not saying “Bowser felt cosmic”; rather, he performs greater feats than his base, and we know exactly what’s empowering him. That’s artifact-driven scaling, not vibe-based.
Lad, nobody is saying he wasn't amped by it, the question is if he's amped to its full power, or makes use of its full power to empower himself.
Of course he's stronger than his base, but how much is the question.
The same logic is used for characters in:
- Zelda (Ganon scaling to Triforce without AP calcs)
Stop talking about Zelda, you've been told by multiple people now.
- Sonic (Shadow scaling to Chaos Emeralds without 100% quantification)
He actually doesn't scale to their 100%, he upscales a character he can beat the dogpiss out of, who in turn has such a feat.
- Kirby (Meta Knight or Magolor scaling to Nova or Master Crown)
The Magolar stuff is done by him directly, why in the world wouldn't he scale? And iirc he actually does have a statement saying something like "using the full might of the Master Crown!" or whatever.
Characters straight up KILL Nova, like thrice, bro's fodder.
If the feat is done while empowered, and the source has a known AP level, scaling is valid unless disproven.
There is no such rule or standard on this wiki, every verse you mentioned as precedence, actively doesn't do that, because it's not allowed, Kirby has actually been downgraded for that before (Used to scale dudes to the full power of the mirror, but there was no proof so they got downgraded even tho they were amped by it still), and other verses have also been hit by such things like Metroid.
Which is exactly the case here — Bowser is visibly empowered by a Grand Star in Galaxy 2, while performing feats like:
- Growing to immense size (disputed, but clearly far beyond baseline)
He can do that normally tho.
I'm waiting for that whole galaxy sized thing you mentioned, if that's actually true just calc that, it'd be way higher than 4-A anyway.
- Warping the battlefield into an unstable gravity vortex
That isn't 4-A, or even fully beyond his normal scope.
- Withstanding a starship crash (even if not Tier 6, it's not baseline either)
Bro it's like maybe 7-B? At best. I mean realistically FTL KE ruins it so just going by the destruction itself it'd be like High 8-C.
Bowser could only do these while empowered. The source of power is directly shown and required, so the logic applied to Sonic (Emerald-based feats done during usage = valid scaling) should apply.
Huh? Again, that ISN'T how we treat Sonic. Stop talking about verses you evidently don't know much about, I don't mean that to be rude but you're spreading misinfo here, stop it man.
The argument isn’t that Bowser definitely used all of a Grand Star’s power. It’s that:
- Grand Stars canonically have 4-A potential.
This is true, but you need to prove Koops was using 4-A levels of power in combat.
Bowser in Galaxy 2 is explicitly empowered by one and performs feats vastly beyond his base.
He is, but, again, how much?
And also none of the feats he performs are beyond his base ngl, he's done similar stuff elsewhere, plus I don't think saying feats below tier 6 being well beyond his base is a very good stance to take.
This follows the same scaling logic used for Zelda, Sonic, and Kirby.
Unless there’s direct evidence that Bowser was not channeling its full power (or even a significant portion), the safest and most consistent interpretation is that he scales proportionally,
That's the exact opposite of our standards. Mario isn't a special case, you need to prove he did.
It shouldn't even be difficult, just one statement that's all you need. Check game text dumps, check guides, hell check some of the japanese guides, I know a handful are readily available on [REDACTED] and internet archive, just skim them and see if there's any statement. There almost certainly is.
So instead of telling us to vibe scale, or go against actual standards or just do it because because, just find a line that says "yep he do be scalin", you only need
one that's it. Nobody is asking for complex roundabout scaling or a pile of evidence, legit just one line from any reliable source. It doesn't even have to be word for word "full power", it just needs to be concrete proof.
which is what 4-A or "at least 4-A, likely higher" typically accounts for.
Where's the "At least" coming from, or the likely higher.
