Dark Tower: Gan tier 0

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Actually, the Final Other is indeed Gan. It’s not necessary to explicitly call the Other “Gan.” In the Dark Tower series, Gan is the only known author of the stories, and in the text, the Other is referred to as the author of everything.

There can be multiple Author-like beings in a Verse; that's nowhere near enough to link them.

 

[Kairach]

Firstly, the statement that the Final Other dwells in a Void beyond this one is an anti-feat for Tier 0. They don't dwell anywhere.

This is arguing semantics, also coming from "no-thing" or void is used a ton in religion to show that God is the first act.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

There can be multiple Author-like beings in a Verse; that's nowhere near enough to link them.

• There is no other writer in the series other than Gan.
• And both names are referred to as the authors of "all stories" rather than just a few.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This is arguing semantics, also coming from "no-thing" or void is used a ton in religion to show that God is the first act.

And they wouldn't be Tier 0 for those same reasons. I don't think everyone understands that Tier 0 is the STRICTEST TIER. Semantics is the very basis of Tier 0, and if we're going to ignore this one, then we should figure out which others we're going to ignore as well.

 

[Re5yh]

And they wouldn't be Tier 0 for those same reasons. I don't think everyone understands that Tier 0 is the STRICTEST TIER. Semantics is the very basis of Tier 0, and if we're going to ignore this one, then we should figure out which others we're going to ignore as well.

Yeah, The Final Other should be around High 1-A+

 

[Kairach]

Semantics is the very basis of Tier 0

Playing semantics is forgetting all context clues and pointing out how "definitions" are somehow used incorrectly, even though within the context of the story and the inspiration from which the character draws, those words are perfectly fine and don't contradict anything.

Also, strict doesn't mean argue in bad faith.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Playing semantics is forgetting all context clues and pointing out how "definitions" are somehow used incorrectly, even though within the context of the story and the inspiration from which the character draws, those words are perfectly fine and don't contradict anything.

Even if we ignore the 'semantics', it's still missing a lot of evidence. It needs more than simply being the author of all things, and containing everything within it's mind.

Until that's provided, I disagree.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

Even if we ignore the 'semantics', it's still missing a lot of evidence. It needs more than simply being the author of all things, and containing everything within it's mind.

Is it because you don't accept Gan and Other as the same entity that you disagree with the other arguments?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Is it because you don't accept Gan and Other as the same entity that you disagree with the other arguments?

No, Gan and the Final Other being the same entity is irrelevant to whether it's Tier 0 or not. I was just raising the point.

Right now, what's majorly missing is more statements that fit with Tier 0's arguments. Atm, simply being the author of the Cosmology is a R > F difference to everything, is not enough for Tier 0.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

No, Gan and the Final Other being the same entity is irrelevant to whether it's Tier 0 or not. I was just raising the point.

Right now, what's majorly missing is more statements that fit with Tier 0's arguments. Atm, simply being the author of the Cosmology is a R > F difference to everything, is not enough for Tier 0.

Is there anything striking about the other arguments? Being an archetype or an all in one type of god etc?

 

[Jockey-1337]

I don’t mean to be rude, but it seems like about 90% of these texts don’t even explain the things I ask you or our "main topic" directly. I’ve already ignored matters like Maturin and Pennywise just to steer the discussion straight to Gan. Anyway.

I had to explain this sort of stuff, because your interpretation was based on two "big" players - Maturin and IT, who actually are not as big.

Here is where the biggest disagreement arises. Can you provide evidence for this? Because it is not necessarily a given that a god must protect the universe it created. And Gan doesn’t even care about that:

Known in folklore as the "Great Turtle Upon Whose Shell the World Rests," legend has it that it was Maturin who caught the world upon his back shortly after it was created by Gan. Had Maturin not been there, all of Existence would have fallen into oblivion. —End-World Almanac

As you can see, from the very beginning, he does not intend to protect creation. And where is it stated that this is an anti-feat?

1) Thanks for the quote, but it is a weak argument, because this sort of stuff is also based on "folklore" and "legends" as a previous one. It is a weak argument in comparison with my arguments, because

a) My argument about the Crimson King's nature comes from the children, who are very powerful psychics/telepaths of Stephen King's Universe. In the movie, for example, it was directly stated (by an omniscient narrator - Author/Viewer), that a child's mind can destroy the Tower #1, #2, - and there are actual feats (from a viewpoint of Author/Viewer) - #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10. I know it is a movie, but it is relevant for characters who scale to the Tower itself or beyond. Especially if they are "beyond authors".

b) My argument about the Crimson King's nature comes from the Crimson King's avatar. It is also important, because the Crimson King is one of two nigh-omniscient/nigh-omnipotent characters.

c) A ton of quotes come from the Glossary. It is also important, because of the same reason: it comes from an omniscient narrator (Author/Viewer). According to it, Macroverse exists somewhere in the Tower, and the destruction of the Tower would destroy the Macroverse too.

2) There are multiple Towers. There is a Tower. on every. single. floor.

3) Anti-Ka comes from the character, who can exist outside of the Tower, and wants to exist there. Logically, it may scale Ka beyond the Tower as well.

Is there direct evidence that the mentioned Turtle is Maturin? Because the phrase "In Desperation, can-tah are small demonic figurines depicting the CAN-TOI (coyotes, snakes, etc.) that serve Tak the Outsider" doesn’t at all match Maturin and sounds cryptic—especially since there are multiple of them.

It was implied. Anyway, it is one of my extra arguments, it is not the main and the most important one.

This text seemed like a blatant lie to me. Because right now, you imply that true-form Gan is actively trying to stop the Crimson King but failing. However, as I’ve said many times, true-form Gan does not have the concern of protecting the universes. He only holds the universes together as an incarnated manifestation. Is there any direct text that states true-form Gan actually wants to protect the universes but cannot?

There were no breaches in barriers between dimensions when Gan made the Tower. But now they are.

My argument is based on the (almost) eternal battle between Ka and anti-Ka. Both of them come from power sources (Gan and Dis) that transcend the Tower itself.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Is there anything striking about the other arguments? Being an archetype or an all in one type of god etc?

What do you mean?

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

Anti-Ka comes from the character, who can exist outside of the Tower, and wants to exist there. Logically, it may scale Ka beyond the Tower as well.

My argument is based on the (almost) eternal battle between Ka and anti-Ka. Both of them come from power sources (Gan and Dis) that transcend the Tower itself.

Yes, but that doesn’t change the fact that the King is sealed at the top of the Tower. And it is hinted by Clotho and Lachesis that beyond a certain level (the ones tied to the Tower), there is no such thing as true randomness.

"May I ask one more question?" The mage raised a single finger. "Only one. For I've been here many long years in yon cage-which you see keeps its place to the very inch, in spite of how hard the wind blew and I'm tired of ******** in that hole. Living monk-simple is all very fine, but there's a limit. Ask your question." "How did the Red King catch thee?" "He can't catch anyone, Tim-he's himself caught, pent at the top of the Dark Tower. But he has his powers, and he has his emissaries. The one you met is far from the greatest of them. A man came to my cave. I was fooled into believing he was a wandering peddler, for his magic was strong. Magic lent to him by the King, as you must ken." Tim risked another question. "Magic stronger than yours?" —The Wind Through the Keyhole

These beings might be called the Higher Purpose and the Higher Random or perhaps there is no Random beyond a certain level; we suspect that may be the case, but we have no real way of telling. —Insomnia

There were no breaches in barriers between dimensions when Gan made the Tower. But now they are.

Actually, that’s not the only problem. The universe is collapsing on its own, but these events are not happening because of Gan’s negligence. I mean, it’s never stated whether Gan has any particular stance toward protecting these things.

 

[Jockey-1337]

This is tied to the fact that there is no other information about this Final Other, aside from some R > F Transcendence, and also no evidence that the Final Other is even related to Gan in the first place.

Yeah, good argument. There is no reason to scale Gan beyond High-1A in the first place, because there is no solid base for this. I also said the same thing before:

"The Final Other" seems like a higher layer of High-1A, just like an extra layer.

I agree with @ActuallySpaceMan42

@Re5yh it seems you no longer agree with the tier 0 upgrade proposal, right? Welcome

@Jason_Voorhees1986 may I ask you to add this gentleman to the list of people who disagree with the upgrade?

Yeah, The Final Other should be around High 1-A+

Not really.

Under this context "all possible worlds" is just MWI.

Modal Realism is the existence of all logically possible worlds. For it to count as Modal Realism you need to demonstrate that these worlds operate within the margin of logic.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

What do you mean?

I just wanted to say, have you read this?

Gan: Tier 0 Revizion

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I just wanted to say, have you read this?

Gan: Tier 0 Revizion

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yes

 

[Jockey-1337]

I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to considering the existing anti-feats as not applying to Gan's true form, which the additional context seems to support.

Are you agreeing or "not disagreeing" (neutral?) with the tier 0 upgrade? The anti-feats are not the only counter-argument, as you see.

 

[Jockey-1337]

And it is hinted by Clotho and Lachesis that beyond a certain level (the ones tied to the Tower), there is no such thing as true randomness.

These beings might be called the Higher Purpose and the Higher Random or perhaps there is no Random beyond a certain level; we suspect that may be the case, but we have no real way of telling. —Insomnia

"Perhaps". Or perhaps not, who of the mortal characters can 100% surely say?

The Crimson King surely wants to rule over the "glorious chaos that existed before the Dark Tower" and "The wreckage of the multiverse".

 

[Kairach]

it's still missing a lot of evidence. It needs more than simply being the author of all things, and containing everything within it's mind.

Is this some good evidence?

God stated to have "many faces" based on who is praying towards it, also called the "One"

Also stated to be a mystery, which everything came from and everything will go back to

"Just one more thing. We came from a mystery and it's to a mystery we go." - Revival page 74

It's also described that Jewish, Muslims, Christian, Buddhist, and theosophists all exist within the story of Revival, so you can just add those to the "One's" identity.

 

[LordVader30]

What OP said makes sense—I agree.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

What OP said makes sense—I agree.

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I think that ActuallySpaceMan42 makes good sense here.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

Care to elaborate?

It is a logical contradiction to say that the multiverse or mathematical universes cannot be High 1-A+. Both are basically unlimited because absolute infinity is literally “unlimited,” so it encounters standards. If you are not familiar with Modal Realism, I will write an informative text about it.

Modal Realism
Let's take a look at why “Modal Realism” is used in Vsbw for the High 1-A+ definition, how it works, and how we can obtain it, but first of all, I think we need to know what it is.

- What is Modal Realism?

Basically, modal realism is a philosophical movement that posits the existence of metaphysical multiverses, a thesis put forward by philosopher David Levis under the name “possible worlds.” The movement basically deals with “contradictions” [note: contradictions are equivalent to the basic meaning used, literally ‘contradictory’], and the contradiction in question shows that there are no “boundaries” between worlds. For example

Let's take a concept, let's say this concept is “blue.”
Let's consider five characterizations that could arise from the concept of blue
Blue elephant= World X
Blue airplane = World B
Blue lava= World C
Blue human arm= World Y
Blue baby= World F

Basically, it deals with “metaphysical” [note: beyond physics/science, cannot be explained by physics/science] things that are impossible to exist in “our existing world,” that is, it deals with worlds where things that are impossible in the existing laws of physics or similar terms can exist. This explains the contradiction.

- Why is Modal Realism rated High 1-A+?

The reason why Modal Realism is High 1-A+ is actually clear if we look at the basic reasons. “All possible qualitative superiority extensions,” that is, if we determine them, “qualitative, meta-qualitative, meta-meta-qualitative” and all possible sets that will accommodate or affect them are High 1-A+. This is where the definition of Modal Realism, which follows this logic, comes in. If we are to speak logically, “anything can happen” in possible worlds because, basically, metaphysical possibilities can contain “everything,” that is, A-World 1-A, while B-World can be High 1-A, and this extends as the “entirety of possibilities.” This is why the connection between Modal Realism and High 1-A+ is established.

- Conditions?
As mentioned, if we are to use all possible sets, their restriction or limitation/incompleteness will demonstrate the inadequacy of the set and that the level is merely an “extension.” so the High 1-A+ level is generally known for its anti-features of “inclusion,” “limitation,” or “overcoming.” Of course, I can hear you asking, “If there is something beyond that, wouldn't that be tier 0?” My answer would always be no, because surpassing all possible worlds aligns with the definition of “tier 0” because “God cannot be defined by any possibility.” However, if there is an anti-feat situation in tier 0, it would undermine both tier 0 and High 1-A+.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

I would disagree:

Then you are basically either ignoring the Omnipotence page or you don't know the basic understanding of the characters.

To be clear, theistic personalism as defined above generally does not actually hold to a conception of Deity that involves corporeity and other such limitations of the human condition. Far from picturing God as a bearded man in the sky, it, on such accounts, simply views God as a being whose existence consists of greatly magnified forms of attributes found in creatures,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Omnipotence#cite_note-8"><span>[</span>8<span>]</span></a> excluding thus the limitations of corporeality but not necessarily things such as temporality.

The usual contrast made against theistic personalism, in turn, is classical theism, which according to the proponents of the distinction posits God as something radically different from all creatures, with a host of attributes that so-called theistic personalists often reject: Timelessness, Immutability, Impassibility, Simplicity, etcetera.

Though the usefulness and applicability of the label of "theistic personalism" itself has been contested before, the picture that it paints can be compared to what philosopher Barry Miller has referred to as "Perfect-Being Theology,"<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Omnipotence#cite_note-9"><span>[</span>9<span>]</span></a> defined thus as the position that God holds all "great-making properties" simply in their highest possible degrees, with these predicates otherwise existing in God in the same way that they exist in creatures. William Vallicella marks a similar distinction by characterizing a dispute consisting of two opposing sides: That God is "a being among beings" and that God is "Being itself."<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Omnipotence#cite_note-10"><span>[</span>10<span>]</span></a>

If you read the philosophical explanations on the linked pages, this idea will become even more apparent. God is absolute because He is infinity itself, and in the same way, He is inaccessible because no attribute can describe Him.
God transcends attributes, time, space, and such concepts, and therefore cannot be known or described. In this simple logic, God cannot be explained by any logical set because each logical set contains metaphysical contradictions, that is, “all possible possibilities.”
Now I will explain why The Final Other is 0, based on my own reasoning.
In particular, the explanation of origin based on Ein Soph, or “everything came from him and everything went to him,” is a clear reflection of God's absoluteness, especially when we consider how concepts are examined and possible worlds are addressed. When we consider that God is “an unnameable speculation,” God is the ultimate source transcending all things.
Which carries the same reasoning as what you call The Presence.
The Unknowable, God, or Monad as you can refer to is the supreme perfect essence and the oneness behind all of Creation. Existing above all dualities and any extensions including the hierarchies of stories

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

And they wouldn't be Tier 0 for those same reasons. I don't think everyone understands that Tier 0 is the STRICTEST TIER. Semantics is the very basis of Tier 0, and if we're going to ignore this one, then we should figure out which others we're going to ignore as well.

Right now, what's majorly missing is more statements that fit with Tier 0's arguments. Atm, simply being the author of the Cosmology is a R > F difference to everything, is not enough for Tier 0.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand Tier 0, at least not the character or anything like that.
EXCUSE me very much.But what you are doing is clearly not reading, because the explanation of concepts and possible worlds is already supportive of such things. God cannot be explained on His own. This is true in Christianity, Islam, and even in DC. To explain God, you need to look at the things He has created to understand what kind of God He is.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand Tier 0, at least not the character or anything like that.
EXCUSE me very much.But what you are doing is clearly not reading, because the explanation of concepts and possible worlds is already supportive of such things. God cannot be explained on His own. This is true in Christianity, Islam, and even in DC. To explain God, you need to look at the things He has created to understand what kind of God He is.

I honestly agree with Shiedaisthepeak on this point.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

Under this context "all possible worlds" is just MWI.

I want you to give me a good reason for that.
Because MWI does not work that way, and these explanations clearly demonstrate the existence of metaphysical contradictions.

In the beginning there was only the Prim, that primor-dial soup of creation. Out of the Prim arose Gan, ani-mating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physi-cal universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all pos-sible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimen-sion in all of them. Like a gray-black jewel, Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White. When I think about the differences between the novels and the comics - and there are many of them - I always keep in mind Jake Chamber's famous phrase, "there are other worlds than these." The Dark Tower contains many levels, and within those levels are parallel worlds which mirror each other, but which are not exactly alike. I always view the Dark Tower comics in one of these parallel worlds. If the Dark Tower novels exist in Tower Keystone, then the Dark Tower comics exist in a spinoff world, one which is very similar to, but not exactly the same as the one where The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass, and the rest of the Dark Tower novels take place. "What did he say?" Jack asked, dry-mouthed. "He called it-" Richard hesitated, frowning in thought. "He called it 'the axle of all possible worlds.' Then he laughed. Then he called it something else. Something you wouldn't like." "What was that?" "It'll make you mad." "Come on, Richard, spill it." "He called it... well... he called it 'Phil Sawyer's folly." It was not anger he felt but a burst of hot, dizzying excitement. That was it, all right; that was the Talisman. The axle of all possible worlds. How many worlds? God alone knew. The American Territories; the Territories themselves; the hypothetical Territories' Territories; and on and on, like the stripes coming ceaselessly up and out of a turning barber pole.

 

[FinePoint]

Are you agreeing or "not disagreeing" (neutral?) with the tier 0 upgrade? The anti-feats are not the only counter-argument, as you see.

Well, given my only remaining major complaint is sort of with Tier 0 in general, I'm not going to let that sway my opinion here.
I plan on bringing up the issue in a different thread later, but until then ActuallySpaceMan42 does bring up some very valid points regarding the current standards.

So, I'm willing to ignore the supposed anti-feats, but I can't reasonably say we've met the bar for evidence for the current requirements for Tier 0.

So, in conclusion, I believe I now disagree, though not with a ton of certainty.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

I plan on bringing up the issue in a different thread later, but until then ActuallySpaceMan42 does bring up some very valid points regarding the current standards.

So, I'm willing to ignore the supposed anti-feats, but I can't reasonably say we've met the bar for evidence for the current requirements for Tier 0.

Actually, it looks like Shiedaisthepeak gave good responses to Actuallyspaceman42's replies.

 

[FinePoint]

Actually, it looks like Shiedaisthepeak gave good responses to Actuallyspaceman42's replies.

Well, I didn't actually read it because the black font makes it almost impossible to do so, at least for me since I'm using dark mode.

If they're willing to re-post it as white text (or normal text which auto-formats) then I'll certainly give it a consideration.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

Well, I didn't actually read it because the black font makes it almost impossible to do so, at least for me since I'm using dark mode.

If they're willing to re-post it as white text (or normal text which auto-formats) then I'll certainly give it a consideration.

I don't mean this:

I want you to give me a good reason for that.
Because MWI does not work that way, and these explanations clearly demonstrate the existence of metaphysical contradictions.

In the beginning there was only the Prim, that primor-dial soup of creation. Out of the Prim arose Gan, ani-mating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physi-cal universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all pos-sible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimen-sion in all of them. Like a gray-black jewel, Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White. When I think about the differences between the novels and the comics - and there are many of them - I always keep in mind Jake Chamber's famous phrase, "there are other worlds than these." The Dark Tower contains many levels, and within those levels are parallel worlds which mirror each other, but which are not exactly alike. I always view the Dark Tower comics in one of these parallel worlds. If the Dark Tower novels exist in Tower Keystone, then the Dark Tower comics exist in a spinoff world, one which is very similar to, but not exactly the same as the one where The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass, and the rest of the Dark Tower novels take place. "What did he say?" Jack asked, dry-mouthed. "He called it-" Richard hesitated, frowning in thought. "He called it 'the axle of all possible worlds.' Then he laughed. Then he called it something else. Something you wouldn't like." "What was that?" "It'll make you mad." "Come on, Richard, spill it." "He called it... well... he called it 'Phil Sawyer's folly." It was not anger he felt but a burst of hot, dizzying excitement. That was it, all right; that was the Talisman. The axle of all possible worlds. How many worlds? God alone knew. The American Territories; the Territories themselves; the hypothetical Territories' Territories; and on and on, like the stripes coming ceaselessly up and out of a turning barber pole.

I meant #144 and #145

Then you are basically either ignoring the Omnipotence page or you don't know the basic understanding of the characters.

If you read the philosophical explanations on the linked pages, this idea will become even more apparent. God is absolute because He is infinity itself, and in the same way, He is inaccessible because no attribute can describe Him.
God transcends attributes, time, space, and such concepts, and therefore cannot be known or described. In this simple logic, God cannot be explained by any logical set because each logical set contains metaphysical contradictions, that is, “all possible possibilities.”
Now I will explain why The Final Other is 0, based on my own reasoning.
In particular, the explanation of origin based on Ein Soph, or “everything came from him and everything went to him,” is a clear reflection of God's absoluteness, especially when we consider how concepts are examined and possible worlds are addressed. When we consider that God is “an unnameable speculation,” God is the ultimate source transcending all things.
Which carries the same reasoning as what you call The Presence.
The Unknowable, God, or Monad as you can refer to is the supreme perfect essence and the oneness behind all of Creation. Existing above all dualities and any extensions including the hierarchies of stories

I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand Tier 0, at least not the character or anything like that.
EXCUSE me very much.But what you are doing is clearly not reading, because the explanation of concepts and possible worlds is already supportive of such things. God cannot be explained on His own. This is true in Christianity, Islam, and even in DC. To explain God, you need to look at the things He has created to understand what kind of God He is.

 

[FinePoint]

I don't mean this:

I meant #144 and #145

The scan for existing above all dualities and extensions isn't loading for me.
Imgur tends to hate me in general, someone may need to embed it directly for me to see it.

 

[Elyartaker]

I think tier 0 might work if there is no anti feat

 

[Jockey-1337]

It is a logical contradiction to say that the multiverse or mathematical universes cannot be High 1-A+. Both are basically unlimited because absolute infinity is literally “unlimited,” so it encounters standards. If you are not familiar with Modal Realism, I will write an informative text about it.

1) Mathematical universes cannot be High 1-A+, simply because they do not contain all stuff. And it was confirmed by Tegmark himself, that his level 4 mv contains only Gödel-complete (fully decidable) mathematical structures:

It has also been suggested that the MUH is inconsistent with Gödel's incompleteness theorem. In a three-way debate between Tegmark and fellow physicists Piet Hut and Mark Alford,[10] the "secularist" (Alford) states that "the methods allowed by formalists cannot prove all the theorems in a sufficiently powerful system... The idea that math is 'out there' is incompatible with the idea that it consists of formal systems."

Tegmark's response[10]: sec VI.A.1 is to offer a new hypothesis "that only Gödel-complete (fully decidable) mathematical structures have physical existence. This drastically shrinks the Level IV multiverse, essentially placing an upper limit on complexity, and may have the attractive side effect of explaining the relative simplicity of our universe."

Source

Modal Realism
Let's take a look at why “Modal Realism” is used in Vsbw for the High 1-A+ definition, how it works, and how we can obtain it, but first of all, I think we need to know what it is.

2) Thanks, I know it and how it works. You still need to prove the most important part - the existence of MR in the verse's cosmology.
Because right now it seems it is just MWI:

Under this context "all possible worlds" is just MWI.

Modal Realism is the existence of all logically possible worlds. For it to count as Modal Realism you need to demonstrate that these worlds operate within the margin of logic.

3a) Absolute infinity is a NLF.
3b) Absolute Infinity was not mentioned anywhere in the verse, so you cannot use it.

The Unknowable, God, or Monad as you can refer to is the supreme perfect essence and the oneness behind all of Creation. Existing above all dualities and any extensions including the hierarchies of stories

"The requested page could not be found"

Anyway, Gan doesn't exist beyond dualities. He is the source of "White", "Ka" and good. And he has an opposition - the source of "Red", "Anti-Ka" and evil. Both of these sources work on a scale "beyond all authors" and can exist outside of the Tower.

In the beginning there was only the Prim, that primor-dial soup of creation. Out of the Prim arose Gan, ani-mating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physi-cal universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all pos-sible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimen-sion in all of them. Like a gray-black jewel, Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White.

When I think about the differences between the novels and the comics - and there are many of them - I always keep in mind Jake Chamber's famous phrase, "there are other worlds than these." The Dark Tower contains many levels, and within those levels are parallel worlds which mirror each other, but which are not exactly alike. I always view the Dark Tower comics in one of these parallel worlds. If the Dark Tower novels exist in Tower Keystone, then the Dark Tower comics exist in a spinoff world, one which is very similar to, but not exactly the same as the one where The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass, and the rest of the Dark Tower novels take place.

"What did he say?" Jack asked, dry-mouthed. "He called it-" Richard hesitated, frowning in thought. "He called it 'the axle of all possible worlds.' Then he laughed. Then he called it something else. Something you wouldn't like." "What was that?" "It'll make you mad." "Come on, Richard, spill it." "He called it... well... he called it 'Phil Sawyer's folly." It was not anger he felt but a burst of hot, dizzying excitement. That was it, all right; that was the Talisman. The axle of all possible worlds. How many worlds? God alone knew. The American Territories; the Territories themselves; the hypothetical Territories' Territories; and on and on, like the stripes coming ceaselessly up and out of a turning barber pole.

@Shiedaisthepeak

1) "Life and experience" is the 1st quote is a serious limiting factor. And it leaves a lot of questions:

Does it mean Gan made only universes where life exists? What about lifeless universes? Universes where only dark matter exists? Or complete empty universes? Too many questions.

2) The 2nd and the 3rd quote do not have anything beyond MWI.

To go beyond MWI you need something like "all mathematically coherent phenomena including contradictions" and a description similar to the description of the Deep Umbra, where normal logic doesn't work. That is what we have in the World of Darkness, for example.

Btw, what is the source of the 2nd quote, may I know? Thanks.

So, in conclusion, I believe I now disagree, though not with a ton of certainty.

Ok, thanks.

I want to keep this short. A few days ago, I upgraded Dark Tower to High 1-A; we're now in the final stages of the process. This will probably be the last content revision I'll make for Dark Tower. I hope the community isn't mad at me for the joke I made yesterday. Anyway, here's a quick summary I put together for Gan. I've done my best to keep the text and quotes as concise as possible. All I want now is for this CRT to be done quickly.

Gan: Tier 0 Revizion

vsbattles.fandom.com

Agree:
@FinePoint (mod)
@Kairach
@Gewsbumpz_dude
@LordVader30
@Shiedaisthepeak
@Apex_Predator_GX
@Monsters_fight
@Re5yh

Disagree:
@VeryGoofyToddler2
@Jockey-1337
@ExcelsisBerny

@Jason_Voorhees1986 my friend, you added FinePoint to the wrong category, you also forgot to add ActuallySpaceMan42.
+ I asked here to move Re5yh to a different team.

Thanks.

 

[Jockey-1337]

The scan for existing above all dualities and extensions isn't loading for me.

I also cannot open it. Anyway, it is not important, because this stuff comes from the Presence's profile, it is a different character from a different verse.
Gan needs similar stuff to reach the Presence's level, I suppose. People who want to upgrade Gan still have to provide it.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Now I will explain why The Final Other is 0, based on my own reasoning.
In particular, the explanation of origin based on Ein Soph, or “everything came from him and everything went to him,” is a clear reflection of God's absoluteness, especially when we consider how concepts are examined and possible worlds are addressed. When we consider that God is “an unnameable speculation,” God is the ultimate source transcending all things.
Which carries the same reasoning as what you call The Presence.
The Unknowable, God, or Monad as you can refer to is the supreme perfect essence and the oneness behind all of Creation. Existing above all dualities and any extensions including the hierarchies of stories

Imgur is weird right now. Can you use something else?

 

[SweetDao]

Imgur is weird right now. Can you use something else?

He might have gotten soft/hard ban ngl. Every other link of other people seems to work fine for me

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

Imgur is weird right now. Can you use something else?

To be honest, We don't need to use imgur, I just took the explanation, I hope you understand what I mean.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

I also cannot open it. Anyway, it is not important, because this stuff comes from the Presence's profile, it is a different character from a different verse.
Gan needs similar stuff to reach the Presence's level, I suppose. People who want to upgrade Gan still have to provide it.

Are you going to ignore the food in front of you?-

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

To be honest, We don't need to use imgur, I just took the explanation, I hope you understand what I mean.

Oh, well, if those scans aren't of the Final Other and its nature, I'm still not convinced. I know what Tier 0 is. The issue is that there's not enough information.

Right now, there are 2, only 2, scans about the Final Others' nature. One of them being an author of everything, and another of it containing things as mote's in its mind. I can not give Tier 0 off of those two scans of superiority alone.