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Agree.
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Dark Tower: Gan tier 0
- Thread starter Jason_Voorhees1986
- Start date
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- gan the dark tower
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I am extremely sad to say that according to the last information we have available from him, he committed suicide on August 18, 2025.
vsbattles.fandom.com
I wish that he would have approached me or somebody else about his problems beforehand, as we might have been able to talk him out of it.
Jason Voorhees1986
vsbattles.fandom.com
I wish that he would have approached me or somebody else about his problems beforehand, as we might have been able to talk him out of it.
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Antvasima, may I ask you to close this thread then? Because the discussion's end is already as sad as possible, and nothing will change it (unless it was a bad joke from Jason)
My friend, there is no need to bump this thread, it is inactive. I plan to create a Dark Tower downgrade proposal somewhere in October, I'm working on my collections of the verse's limits and anti-feats. It will be a different thread, anyway.
My friend, there is no need to bump this thread, it is inactive. I plan to create a Dark Tower downgrade proposal somewhere in October, I'm working on my collections of the verse's limits and anti-feats. It will be a different thread, anyway.
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Jason just told me that he is alive, so I have unlocked this thread again.
@Jockey-1337
Have you made any progress with your revision thread?
@Jockey-1337
Have you made any progress with your revision thread?
Last edited:
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Good news
Have you made any progress with your revision thread?
Sorry for the delays, I was busy IRL, so my collections is not completed yet, I hope to finish it in January.
I made a small collection of arguments on SpaceBattles, that is relevant for this thread as well.
Long story short:
1) Even the "true form" of Gan is not a proper Ultimate God/Ultimate Reality. Because he originates from the Prim and he is made of it. His nature is not different from the nature of other magical creatures (Monsters of Prim/Monsters of Todash Space). This stuff alone already kills the tier 0 interpretation of Gan.
2) Todash Space = Prim. They are the same "volume" but Todash is empty, without "magical water". It is like the desert that remained after the sea dried up.
3) Dark Tower's "all possible" stuff is just a classic multiverse. Without proper context it is not enough for a cosmology with "all properties" (High 1-A+)
4) The theoretical collapse of the Tower is not an indication of brute force or durability. The multiverse will be simply mixed with monsters and magic/Prim again. It is not a classic "destruction".
5) Moreover, Prim and the Tower cannot exist at the same time. So, it causes a contradiction with the idea of having "all qualities".
6) Plus, the setting's cosmology seems more like a "3d universe within 3d universe within 3d universe". Because everyone and everything (including dust particles on the traveller's boots that enter a higher floor) is still 3d. It is only tier 2 of the system.
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Thank you. That seems much more reasonable to me than our current bloated statistics, but quite a lot of pages, including a cosmology page, apparently need to be thoroughly and properly rewritten in the process.
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@Xearesay @Jockey-1337
What do you think should be done regarding this issue?
vsbattles.com
What do you think should be done regarding this issue?
Wiki Vandalism Reports
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Cyber_World?diff=prev&oldid=9313579
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You as well, @FinePoint .@Xearesay @Jockey-1337
What do you think should be done regarding this issue?
Wiki Vandalism Reports
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Cyber_World?diff=prev&oldid=9313579
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@Xearesay @Jockey-1337
What do you think should be done regarding this issue?
I'm not sure whether Jason_Voorhees1986 and Yeah boy382 are the same user, but they don't have cards to win in debates anyway.
About Gan's profile: this version of the profile seems like a fanon, it needs a rework. I will propose multiple small CRTs when I finish my collection of scans.
Re5yh
He/Him- 1,528
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Im with you
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I will respond later
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Hello.
Were these changes acceptable?
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Dark_Tower?diff=9308474&oldid=9191641
Hello, Antvasima, sorry for the long delays.
[possesses an infinite Fiction-–Reality]
I think this stuff is wrong, because
1) There is no solid proof of R>F in the settings, only fan-made interpretations.
2) There are evidences against it:
... and destroy the many worlds so that the people of the Prim can swim freely again
The wreckage of the multiverse will provide a feast for generations to come. Can you not see us rulling over it together, cousin?
a) The "people of the Prim" (Todash Space Monsters/Prim Monsters) are limited by laws of physics and other material stuff. They do not have any sort of transcendence over it.
b) It would be impossible to feed from fiction.
There are other arguments against R>F, I mentioned it on SpaceBattles, the most important fragment:
c) The cosmology can contain only A or only B, where A=the Prim, B=the Tower/the Multiverse. Full A and Full B cannot exist at the same time:
"Before the dawn of time and the formation of the multiverse, there was nothing but the magical Prim, that primordial soup of creation that stretched across all existence like a chaotic ocean. This was the case until Gan, the Spirit of the Dark Tower, emerged from the formless Prim and gave birth to the entire multiverse. As Gan slowly expanded, the Prim receded into nothingness. Soon all that remained of the Prim were the assorted demons stranded on Gan's earth who once called the Prim their home."
"In the beginning there was only the Prim, the magical soup of creation. From the Prim arose Gan, the spirit of the Dark Tower, who spun the physical universe from his navel. When the magical tide of the Prim had receded from the earth, the Tower and the Beams remained, forming the framework of the time/space continuum. However, the receding Prim also left behind it a flotsam and jetsam of demons and elemental spirits."
"In the beginning, there was nothing but the Prim, the primordial force of chaotic magic which ate away at the nothingness in the universe. Gan, the spirit of the Dark Tower, was the first to erupt from the Prim - and from the ever-growing Gan emerged Mid-World, which eventually broke apart into many parallel worlds spinning around the axle of Gan. As the demon-infested Prim began to recede, many lesser demons became stranded on the shores of the parallel worlds. One of these demons was known as Maerlyn."
"In those long ago days when the waters of the Prim covered the earth, we fed well."
"But then came our enemy, to disturb our feed."
"Gan hated the rich, unformed waters of the Prim. But most of all, he was jealous of our feeding"
"He wanted to create a new world with new creatures"
"He wanted to usurp our power and become Lord of All"
In the middle of the transformation from point A to point B, the Prim and our planet Earth even co-existed. It is the evidence that the Prim's conditions are not hostile to normal laws of physics.
[Dark Tower encompass contain all possible stories ever written in the real world]
No, it is a common mistake.
There are some examples of stuff of different fictional verses:
"There was one Wolf out in front, its sizzling fire-stick raised. It was half-turned to its mates, and now it waved its light-stick at the road. Except thats no light-stick, Eddie thought. Thats a light-saber, just like the ones in the Star Wars movies. Only these light-sabers aren't special effects - they really kill. What the hells going on here?"
- Wolves of the Calla
- Wolves of the Calla
"Never saw Star Wars did you?" he asked.
"No, told you. I was going to, but-"
"You left too soon. I know. Those things they were swinging - Jake, they were from that movie."
"You sure?"
"Yes. And the Wolves....Jake, the Wolves themselves...." Wolves of the Calla
"No, told you. I was going to, but-"
"You left too soon. I know. Those things they were swinging - Jake, they were from that movie."
"You sure?"
"Yes. And the Wolves....Jake, the Wolves themselves...." Wolves of the Calla
This is an example. But it doesn't mean the Dark Tower Universe authomatically contain Star Wars Universe within itself. It only contains some (featless, btw) copies of the things of Star Wars Universe.
[Above all of this these stands The Final Other, also known by itsa divine High 1-A entity who transcends the setting entirely]
This edit is a pure fanon again. I posted above descriptions that are made from viewpoint of an omniscient narrator (Author/Reader), that prove that Gan is not beyond the Prim, and the Prim is not beyond laws of physics. The Prim, the Tower and Gan exist in the same weight category.
[In this way, he is not merely a villain but the embodiment of metaphysical annihilation. However, The Crimson King is not the totality of The Red. Rather, he is an instrument of its will, a conscious agent of a greater, abstract force.]
Actually, there are 2 Crimson Kings in the setting - True Form (Dis) and an Avatar (Los). There was no need to delete this fragment from the verse's page. The character's profile already has 2 keys, and it is good. I have a proposal to restore this fragment.
Good to know, wanna edit the pages?
My part: to provide evidences.
Your part: to edit the pages.
We can work well together.
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Can you summarise the revisions that you wish to make and why in a more easily overviewed manner please?
It would also help if somebody tells me which staff members that have helped out in this thread previously.
It would also help if somebody tells me which staff members that have helped out in this thread previously.
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Can you summarise the revisions that you wish to make and why in a more easily overviewed manner please?
It would also help if somebody tells me which staff members that have helped out in this thread previously.
Generally, I plan to downgrade everything from High 1-A to 2-A. At this moment, I'm working on my collection of scans for my arguments.
I will finish it in a few weeks.
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Planet level > Dark Tower multiverse (half joke, half true):
"At the beginning of our era there were no worlds and no universes, only the seething, raw magic of the Prim. This phosphorescent soup of creation grew like a great, hungry, opalescent ameba. It ate the nothingness, and in the silence it murmured and whispered. First to erupt from the depths of the Prim was Gan, spirit of the Dark Tower. Tall and grey-black, he pushed into the sky, the windows that spiraled round his barrel flashing with an electric-blue light. From the center of Gan's forehead stared a great oriel window of twelve colors: crimson, orange, yellow, pink, dark blue, dark green, indigo, lime, azure, violet, brown and pearl grey. Though the window was beautiful, the circular pane at its center glowed black as the emptiness of todash space. As Gan stretched himself higher and higher, the waters of the Prim poured out of his navel. From its raw magic he spun Mid-World. As the Tower lengthened, so Mid-World divided into the multiple, parallel worlds. Gan set those sequin-like worlds spinning around the axle of his body and their movement created time. As time settled on its axis, the sun and moon arose from the Prim and built their own roads across the sky. Soon they were joined by Old Star and his wife, South Star. But while the gods took their places above the stage of the earth, other more terrible creatures bred in the deeper waters of the Prim. The most awful of the Prim's new children were the monstrous Great Ones. Some of these horrors had the bodies of squids, some of giant centipedes, still others of great, double-fanged spiders. All had clawed pincers and gaping mouths filled with shark teeth, and all of them were hungry. But as these Great Ones cozened, diddled, and increased, the Prim..."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)
I don't know how to interpret the "Planet > Multiverse" nonsense. The description was done from the viewpoint of an omniscient narrator (author/reader).
On-topic: I'm finishing my collections in a few days.
"At the beginning of our era there were no worlds and no universes, only the seething, raw magic of the Prim. This phosphorescent soup of creation grew like a great, hungry, opalescent ameba. It ate the nothingness, and in the silence it murmured and whispered. First to erupt from the depths of the Prim was Gan, spirit of the Dark Tower. Tall and grey-black, he pushed into the sky, the windows that spiraled round his barrel flashing with an electric-blue light. From the center of Gan's forehead stared a great oriel window of twelve colors: crimson, orange, yellow, pink, dark blue, dark green, indigo, lime, azure, violet, brown and pearl grey. Though the window was beautiful, the circular pane at its center glowed black as the emptiness of todash space. As Gan stretched himself higher and higher, the waters of the Prim poured out of his navel. From its raw magic he spun Mid-World. As the Tower lengthened, so Mid-World divided into the multiple, parallel worlds. Gan set those sequin-like worlds spinning around the axle of his body and their movement created time. As time settled on its axis, the sun and moon arose from the Prim and built their own roads across the sky. Soon they were joined by Old Star and his wife, South Star. But while the gods took their places above the stage of the earth, other more terrible creatures bred in the deeper waters of the Prim. The most awful of the Prim's new children were the monstrous Great Ones. Some of these horrors had the bodies of squids, some of giant centipedes, still others of great, double-fanged spiders. All had clawed pincers and gaping mouths filled with shark teeth, and all of them were hungry. But as these Great Ones cozened, diddled, and increased, the Prim..."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)
I don't know how to interpret the "Planet > Multiverse" nonsense. The description was done from the viewpoint of an omniscient narrator (author/reader).
On-topic: I'm finishing my collections in a few days.
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It was done way faster, in a few hours
Thanks a lot for helping out.
It is very important that you maintain proper spelling, grammar, and sentence structures for your revision though.
Hello, and welcome. All planned stuff is completed: https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-d...a-collection-of-materials-and-sources.187659/
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