Dark Tower: Gan tier 0

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

I want to keep this short. A few days ago, I upgraded Dark Tower to High 1-A; we're now in the final stages of the process. This will probably be the last content revision I'll make for Dark Tower. I hope the community isn't mad at me for the joke I made yesterday. Anyway, here's a quick summary I put together for Gan. I've done my best to keep the text and quotes as concise as possible. All I want now is for this CRT to be done quickly. ​

Gan: Tier 0 Revizion

vsbattles.fandom.com

Agree:
@FinePoint (mod)
@Elyartaker
@Kairach
@Gewsbumpz_dude
@LordVader30
@Shiedaisthepeak
@Apex_Predator_GX
@Monsters_fight
@Re5yh

Disagree:
@VeryGoofyToddler2
@Jockey-1337
@ExcelsisBerny
@ActuallySpaceMan42 (mod)

 

[Antvasima]

@Gewsbumpz_dude @Zensum @HeadlessKramerGeoff777 @Shiedaisthepeak @Protector_Hunk @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint

Your help would be appreciated here.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

@Gewsbumpz_dude @Zensum @HeadlessKramerGeoff777 @Shiedaisthepeak @Protector_Hunk @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint

Your help would be appreciated here.

As you wish,

I still don't agree with the High 1-A+ scaling part, but that doesn't mean this verse won't be High 1-A+
I agree with the Gan (The Final Other) Tier 0, and I think it makes more sense to scale High 1-A+ through the avatar path (just like in Marvel).

 

[Jockey-1337]

It is possible to harm Gan. It comes from the comic, The Gunslinger Born, specifically issue 4. The person that wounded Gan isn't the Crimson King, rather a powerful wizard named Maerlyn, who is likely stronger.
He can be harmed, so he cannot be a tier 0 character.

High 1-A+ is also too much for the setting that doesn't contain "all qualities".

Overall, I disagree.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

It is possible to harm Gan. So he cannot be a tier 0 character.

It comes from the comic, The Gunslinger Born, specifically issue 4. The person that wounded Gan isn't the Crimson King, rather a powerful wizard named Maerlyn, who is likely stronger.

This is about ''GAN'' not the The Final other are you really read the thread?cause it's already explained in blog

 

[Jockey-1337]

This is about ''GAN'' not the The Final other are you really read the thread?cause it's already explained in blog

"The Final Other" seems like a higher layer of High-1A, just like an extra layer. It is not something beyond logic or description.

 

[Robo432343]

It is possible to harm Gan. It comes from the comic, The Gunslinger Born, specifically issue 4. The person that wounded Gan isn't the Crimson King, rather a powerful wizard named Maerlyn, who is likely stronger.
He can be harmed, so he cannot be a tier 0 character.

High 1-A+ is also too much for the setting that doesn't contain "all qualities".

Overall, I disagree.

this is literally addressed in the profile

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

"The Final Other" seems like a higher layer of High-1A, just like an extra layer. It is not something beyond logic or description.

''beyond logic'' or these terms doesn't give you tier 0.

 

[Jockey-1337]

''beyond logic'' or these terms doesn't give you tier 0.

What the Final Other has is not something beyond an extra layer of High 1-A.

EDIT:

Tier 0 is exactly beyond logic (ineffable):

Tier 0: Boundless​

Entities who are completely transcendent over any and all forms of hierarchical extension. More specifically: They not only encompass the collection of all possible "qualities" represented by High 1-A+, but also exceed it utterly, existing beyond any and all distinctions between ontologies and any division between objects. They are beyond differentiation, changeless, indivisible, ineffable, self-sufficient and completely unsurpassable.

The Final Other simply exists outside of High 1-A space which adds an extra level of High 1-A:

Spoiler

He was flying past the Turtle now, and even at his tremendous skidding speed, the Turtle's plated side seemed to go on and on to his right. He thought dimly of riding in a train and passing one going in the other direction, a train that was so long it seemed eventually to stand still or even move backward. He could still hear It, yammering and buzzing, Its voice high and angry, not human, full of mad hate. But when the Turtle spoke, Its voice was blanked out utterly. The Turtle spoke in Bill's head, and Bill understood somehow that there was yet Another, and that Final Other dwelt in a void beyond this one. This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

It is possible to harm Gan. It comes from the comic, The Gunslinger Born, specifically issue 4.

I've already explained this part, so please read the content carefully all the way to the end first.

He was flying past the Turtle now, and even at his tremendous skidding speed, the Turtle's plated side seemed to go on and on to his right. He thought dimly of riding in a train and passing one going in the other direction, a train that was so long it seemed eventually to stand still or even move backward. He could still hear It, yammering and buzzing, Its voice high and angry, not human, full of mad hate. But when the Turtle spoke, Its voice was blanked out utterly. The Turtle spoke in Bill's head, and Bill understood somehow that there was yet Another, and that Final Other dwelt in a void beyond this one. This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was.

"The Other lives in a void" and "a power beyond the universe" likely refer to the following:

• The place known as Deadlights is a living place.

Turtle; in the outlands beyond all lands. She was in Its eye; She was in Its mind. She was in the deadlights.

• Deadlights is known as an infinite realm and is the cosmological pinnacle.​

It was dark everywhere, and darkness was everywhere, darkness was the universe itself, but the floor was hard, like hard, polished rubber, and it was as if he was sliding along the rubber floor on his chest and stomach. He was in the ballroom of eternity, and eternity was dark.

This is no illusion, you foolish little boy - this is eternity, My eternity, and you are lost in it, lost forever, never to find your way back.

• Even Pennywise exists directly in the Final Other's mind, a context consistent with him being the author.

Suddenly he thought he understood: It meant to hrust him through some wall at the end of the universe and into some other place (what that old Turtle called the macroverse) where It really lived; where It existed as a titanic, glowing core which might be no more than the smallest mote in that Other's mind.

• Although the definition of the final void in question is extremely vague, it is quite clear that it is the mind of the Final Other. Also, almost everything in the series is an aspect of Gan. What truly shows that this void is the mind of the Final Other is the clear statement that the Deadlights exist within its mind. If the Deadlights are inside its mind and the Final Other lives beyond the Deadlights, then it makes much more sense for this place to be not a physical void but a subconscious space, meaning its mind. The word "void" here only symbolizes incomprehensibility. It is not a concrete location but the unfathomable mental reality of the Final Other. Also, Final Other never appears in this series. In the parts you quoted, even Pennywise is afraid of him, but he can't see his presence directly. It's just stated that he's a god that exists.

 

[FinePoint]

I understand the details are in the blogs, but could you please create a summarized scaling/reasoning chain?

That would give me something convenient to compare all the justification to.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

I understand the details are in the blogs, but could you please create a summarized scaling/reasoning chain?

That would give me something convenient to compare all the justification to.

Of course
For Maturin-Penny

As a result, the tier of both supreme divine beings is High 1-A+ (Type 1) Because even the Prim Sea, which is the source of all possible worlds that are logically consistent and identical, is just a drop encompassed within the Macroverse. This means that Todash is the cosmological pinnacle that contains all possible worlds, with no exceptions or adherence to any hierarchical plane. In the light of the data we have, the fact that Pennywise is integrated with his own infinity in a darkness called the Macroverse shows that he may cover a large part of the possible worlds. While Maturin carries all the physical worlds and the Tower on his back by himself, the fact that Pennywise is Maturin's brother and a Demon Elemental who is his opposite reveals that the only watching Turtle and the only eating It, both representing good and evil, are the two cosmic forces that provide power in the deep dark rooms of the Macroverse. Even if Maturin is not qualitatively superior to Pennywise, it is stated that he is a power that eclipses his power, which indicates that both should be included in the same echelon.

For Gan

In conclusion, the Final Other and its avatar Gan or the Dark Tower are the supreme god that transcends everything and serves as the fundamental source of all stories. All concepts originate from the Dark Tower and are held together through it. Concepts like Ka, which represent life and fate and extend throughout all existence, are aspects of Gan itself. This means Gan is the life essence of all things. While the concept known as the White represents good, an abstract alliance with evil is formed through Maerlyn, who is involved with Gan’s avatar and embodies the opposing force. Gan is regarded as the archetypal god and the source of everything. Its true form surpasses everything that exists within the Dark Tower universe, including its own avatar, to an incomprehensible degree and views it all as fiction. It holds realms such as the Deadlights within its mind. Even though it is not directly stated that this god is unreachable or unknowable, even cosmological pinnacle beings like Pennywise, who encompass the infinite depths of the Macroverse, cannot perceive its existence.

 

[FinePoint]

Of course
For Maturin-Penny
For Gan

Thank you, but I meant even more simplified, since this still contains a lot of specific lore terms and prior knowledge assumptions.

Below is a random example of what I mean going all the way up to Tier 0. Note that it doesn't have to be this smooth, and larger jumps are fine.

The Baseline Universe is stated to be infinite spacetime (Low 2-C) >
There are infinite alternative universes of this nature (2-A) >
Glorbo is fundamentally bigger than these multiverses and can eat them (Low 1-C) >
There's an infinite spiral of Gleebos which eat each other the same way, with Glorp at the top (High 1-B) >
Gleemp views all of this reality as fiction (1-A) >
Meepzorb is above Gleemp the same way Gleemp is above the baseline universe (High 1-A) >
Gleemp^2 transcends Gleemp the same way, and this repeats infinitely to Gleemp^infinity who can actualize arbitrarily large words. (High 1-A+) >
Glorp Prime exists beyond all previous and possible distinctions, rendering even Gleemp^infinity completely irrelevant (0)

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

Thank you, but I meant even more simplified, since this still contains a lot of specific lore terms and prior knowledge assumptions.

I see, then let me summarize it like this:

For Maturin and Pennywise:
There exists a realm called Todash, which holds all possible worlds within it. Pennywise encompasses a vast portion of this infinite realm, while Maturin, on the opposing side, holds all worlds within his own shell in a separate region of Todash.

For Gan:
He is the ultimate god, the life essence of all things. An archetypal being, the fundamental source behind many concepts that permeate the universe. Through his avatar and Maerlyn, he initiates the struggle between the forces of good and evil. All possible worlds are manifestations of Gan. His true form, as the Author of Everything, contains even cosmological apexes like the Deadlights within his mind and views the entire multiverse as fiction.

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

Gleemp^2 transcends Gleemp the same way, and this repeats infinitely (High 1-A+) >

that's not how it is work High 1-A+...
If you maintain all possible meta hierarchical connections, you cannot exceed tier 0, and if the entity exceeding this is not tier 0, this situation is a disruption of the hierarchy-encompassing containment, which is seriously disruptive to High 1-A+.

 

[FinePoint]

that's not how it is work High 1-A+...
If you maintain all possible meta hierarchical connections, you cannot exceed tier 0, and if the entity exceeding this is not tier 0, this situation is a disruption of the hierarchy-encompassing containment, which is seriously disruptive to High 1-A+.

Well we're getting very semantic here, especially for a random and silly example I made just to showcase the format I was getting at, but High 1-A+ refers to encompassing all possible logical extensions of meta-qualitative superiority and all logically possible arbitrarily large worlds. From that perspective, infinite recursion of meta-qualitative superiority allows you to choose an arbitrary size. I can see the inherent problems with this assumption but I also didn't want to just copy-paste the entire long description of High 1-A+ for my random example just to be safe- for practical reasons.

So tl;dr you may be right, but it's not really important since I was just showing the format and didn't want it to be too long nor think about it too hard. Still, I edited it to include an actual definition from the page just because I don't feel like this being a hang-up for some reason.

 

[FinePoint]

I see, then let me summarize it like this:

For Maturin and Pennywise:
There exists a realm called Todash, which holds all possible worlds within it. Pennywise encompasses a vast portion of this infinite realm, while Maturin, on the opposing side, holds all worlds within his own shell in a separate region of Todash.

For Gan:
He is the ultimate god, the life essence of all things. An archetypal being, the fundamental source behind many concepts that permeate the universe. Through his avatar and Maerlyn, he initiates the struggle between the forces of good and evil. All possible worlds are manifestations of Gan. His true form, as the Author of Everything, contains even cosmological apexes like the Deadlights within his mind and views the entire multiverse as fiction.

Thank you. So essentially the bridge to High 1-A+ here is the following elaboration?

"At the beginning of creation, god Gan created creation to contain the manifestations of all possible life and experience. The greatest discovery of the logical worlds begins with Jack Sawyer's discovery of Talisman. Talisman is the connection point of all universes, everything imaginable is possible. Jack may encounter unexpected alternative incarnations of thousands of worlds below or millions of worlds above, but all of these possibilities are Jack Sawyer's own, because Talisman is the connection point of all possible worlds. Short-Time Levels, Long-Time Levels, All-Time Levels, all worlds and the gaps of possibility that exist between the worlds are all one with Jack Sawyer. The manifestations of all possible life and experience in possible worlds follow an extremely identical, fixed order. The Dark Tower universes are also referred to as stories. Even though the Dark Tower stories we read are written by Stephen King, the true author of these tales is Gan. As I previously mentioned, stories that exist in real life are produced by the Dark Tower. Yes, while these stories may have been written by authors such as Stephen King, Edgar Allan Poe, or L. Frank Baum, they all serve the unity known as Kas-Ka Gan. Writers are the prophets of Gan. There are an infinite number of stories, all of which are situated within worlds that emerge from the Dark Tower. The key point that requires careful consideration here is that all logically possible worlds—or in other words, all possible stories—are made up of these realities."

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

Thank you. So essentially the bridge to High 1-A+ here is the following elaboration?

"At the beginning of creation, god Gan created creation to contain the manifestations of all possible life and experience. The greatest discovery of the logical worlds begins with Jack Sawyer's discovery of Talisman. Talisman is the connection point of all universes, everything imaginable is possible. Jack may encounter unexpected alternative incarnations of thousands of worlds below or millions of worlds above, but all of these possibilities are Jack Sawyer's own, because Talisman is the connection point of all possible worlds. Short-Time Levels, Long-Time Levels, All-Time Levels, all worlds and the gaps of possibility that exist between the worlds are all one with Jack Sawyer. The manifestations of all possible life and experience in possible worlds follow an extremely identical, fixed order. The Dark Tower universes are also referred to as stories. Even though the Dark Tower stories we read are written by Stephen King, the true author of these tales is Gan. As I previously mentioned, stories that exist in real life are produced by the Dark Tower. Yes, while these stories may have been written by authors such as Stephen King, Edgar Allan Poe, or L. Frank Baum, they all serve the unity known as Kas-Ka Gan. Writers are the prophets of Gan. There are an infinite number of stories, all of which are situated within worlds that emerge from the Dark Tower. The key point that requires careful consideration here is that all logically possible worlds—or in other words, all possible stories—are made up of these realities."

Yes, that's all I'm saying

 

[FinePoint]

Yes, that's all I'm saying

Alright, thank you for being patient.

Unless there's additional context or anti-feats I'm not aware of, and given that it's built on a foundation of an already accepted High 1-A, and given that the evidence seems to follow the High 1-A+ criteria pretty closely- I will tentatively agree to it while acknowledging that I lack sufficient knowledge of the verse to ever do so confidently.

As for Gan, what in particular makes you think he's Tier 0?

"He is the ultimate god, the life essence of all things. An archetypal being, the fundamental source behind many concepts that permeate the universe. Through his avatar and Maerlyn, he initiates the struggle between the forces of good and evil. All possible worlds are manifestations of Gan. His true form, as the Author of Everything, contains even cosmological apexes like the Deadlights within his mind and views the entire multiverse as fiction."

This description could technically just be higher into Tier 1 as well, and although you admitted to it and claim it's only relevant to their avatars, I do find it important to bring up the anti-feats, such as there being nothing at first then them appearing.

The distinction seems to come down some analysis of the way characters in-verse refer to Gan and the Tower interchangeably in some instances, and one of the scans explicitly says "perhaps" while describing the relationship.

Therefore, I'm wondering if a "Possibly 0" is more appropriate, since the evidence itself has some doubt in it.

 

[Ebihara]

"Possibly 0"

Is that a rating we use? Any current examples of this?

 

[FinePoint]

Is that a rating we use? Any current examples of this?

I don't know if there's any current examples for Tier 0, and I might be wrong, but I don't see why we couldn't. We do it for every other tier.

It's just to denote that the evidence has some room for interpretation or the source may be somewhat skeptical.

 

[Ebihara]

I don't know if there's any current examples for Tier 0, and I might be wrong, but I don't see why we couldn't. We do it for every other tier.

It's just to denote that the evidence has some room for interpretation or the source may be somewhat skeptical.

Seems just very odd and going agasint how we classify tier 0 but I am no expert.

 

[FinePoint]

Seems just very odd and going agasint how we classify tier 0 but I am no expert.

Think of it more like this:

"Character A describes Character B in a way that perfectly matches our description of Tier 0."
"But Character A has been wrong before about other things."
"Alright, but not usually about this kind of thing. So it's possible they're telling the truth. Therefore possible that they're Tier 0."

It's not a "Possibly" in the sense that their feats themselves either could or could not qualify (which wouldn't make sense), it's a "Possibly" in the sense that those feats/claims only "Possibly" happened/are true as described in the first place.

 

[Ebihara]

Think of it more like this:

"Character A describes Character B in a way that perfectly matches our description of Tier 0."
"But Character A has been wrong before about other things."
"Alright, but not usually about this kind of thing. So it's possible they're telling the truth. Therefore possible that they're Tier 0."

It's not a "Possibly" in the sense that their feats themselves either could or could not qualify (which wouldn't make sense), it's a "Possibly" in the sense that those feats/claims only "Possibly" happened/are true as described in the first place.

Hmm that makes more sense. That's a pretty large difference then what i was thinking possibly was being used for.

 

[FinePoint]

Hmm that makes more sense. That's a pretty large difference then what i was thinking possibly was being used for.

No problem. Glad I could clear that up. It's for skepticism of our interpretation, not skepticism of where an accepted feat falls (that should be objective).

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

No problem. Glad I could clear that up. It's for skepticism of our interpretation, not skepticism of where an accepted feat falls (that should be objective).

So how would you like me to add you?
Example:

Agree: @Shiedaisthepeak (Only for Tier 0)

 

[FinePoint]

So how would you like me to add you?
Example:

I currently support "High 1-A+ for Possible Worlds", and "Possibly 0 for Gan."

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

I currently support "High 1-A+ for Possible Worlds", and "Possibly 0 for Gan."

Thanks for your support

 

[Jockey-1337]

W8 1-2 days please, I will provide arguments against it.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

W8 1-2 days please, I will provide arguments against it.

This is entirely up to you, but please understand the difference between Final Other/Gan and Dark Tower/Gan.

 

[Antvasima]

W8 1-2 days please, I will provide arguments against it.

That seems perfectly fine.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

No to the High 1-A+. Name-dropping possible worlds especially considering the “axle of all possible worlds” is not an indicative statement of how we coin High 1-A+, just like how the “best of all possible worlds” statements aren't inherently High 1-A+.

I disagree with 0. The following statements that Todash Space is within the mind of the Final Other without any formal mention of 0 traits would just be one layer above High 1-A for creating both IT and the Turtle.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

OP looks fine to me.

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

No to the High 1-A+. Name-dropping possible worlds especially considering the “axle of all possible worlds” is not an indicative statement of how we coin High 1-A+, just like how the “best of all possible worlds” statements aren't inherently High 1-A+.

I disagree with 0. The following statements that Todash Space is within the mind of the Final Other without any formal mention of 0 traits would just be one layer above High 1-A for creating both IT and the Turtle.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Monsters_fight]

I agree with the thread

 

[Wesker018]

I disagree with 0. The following statements that Todash Space is within the mind of the Final Other without any formal mention of 0 traits would just be one layer above High 1-A for creating both IT and the Turtle.

I agree with Goofy here. After reading the blog, it seems the arguments revolve around: "transcends everything and is the source of everything," which doesn't seem sufficient to me. I think more statements describing immutability, all-in-one, lack of qualities, etc., are necessary for tier 0. This is just a layer above High 1-A or perhaps one Meta-Extention above.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

The evidence for High 1-A+ can probably be better, but Tier 0 seems fine enough. Practically speaking it isn't really that much different from what has been accepted as Tier 0 here, just a bunch of jargon and buzzwords that we (the "professionals") say equates to said character being some vague supreme all-powerful being with poorly defined limits. Pretty much all the tier is at the end of the day.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

The evidence for High 1-A+ can probably be better, but Tier 0 seems fine enough. Practically speaking it isn't really that much different from what has been accepted as Tier 0 here, just a bunch of jargon and buzzwords that we (the "professionals") say equates to said character being some vague supreme all-powerful being with poorly defined limits. Pretty much all the tier is at the end of the day.

I agree and bump

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

The evidence for High 1-A+ can probably be better, but Tier 0 seems fine enough. Practically speaking it isn't really that much different from what has been accepted as Tier 0 here, just a bunch of jargon and buzzwords that we (the "professionals") say equates to said character being some vague supreme all-powerful being with poorly defined limits. Pretty much all the tier is at the end of the day.

I guess you could say something similar for other tiers, but Tier 0's definition mostly consists of buzzwords and the tier literally breaks itself down to a set list of things to look out for.

 

[FinePoint]

No to the High 1-A+. Name-dropping possible worlds especially considering the “axle of all possible worlds” is not an indicative statement of how we coin High 1-A+, just like how the “best of all possible worlds” statements aren't inherently High 1-A+.

What specifically would need to change for you to consider it High 1-A+?

Since I was never fully confident, I'm very open to changing my mind on it.

Or if we're just unsure whether they mean "possible worlds" in the same way we do, then I suppose a possibly could work there too.

As for 0, I mostly agree with Gewsbumpz_dude in that Tier 0 currently seems to hinge less on specific feats and more an absence of any implications to the contrary along with some qualifying factors. We have those, but there's some doubt as to whether they were really Gan or avatars.