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When was that made? (I think I missed that one, can you link it?)
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Captain America’s shield revision/downgrade
- Thread starter Osemere
- Start date
Arkenis
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"Basically any 4d energy enhanced character shouldn't be moved by anything in a 3d space" yet it happens all the time. For the record I haven't been arguing for 1-A invulnerability, just durability.
I specifically didn't say that, and the pages are irrelevant especially like Gambits which hasn't received major changes in nearly 3yrs. But my point is that even if a character doesn't explicitly use magic as their gimmick, they are still participating in the relation between science and magic within the verse so you can not use their examples as contradictions against the shield.
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And there's nothing wrong with that.
The vibranium is still matter.
The shield is still matter.
It only becomes an issue if Gambit actually damages it, effected the uru aspect, or the magic aspect.
None of that happens.
It literally didn't do anything. It's framed as a feat for it, not a anti-feat. For one who wants to talk about narrative intent, you're actively twisting said narrative.
Yeah? Man, you're acting like it lost it's vibranium powers, it didn't, it still has vibranium, it also just had funny magic metal that made it even more indestructible slapped on it now, because that's basically exactly what they say.
Dude, you just took a feat the writers clearly wanted to be cool and impressive, and are arguing how actually it's a anti feat.
You don't get to decide what the writers wanted.
They've SINCE that feat you just posted, had the shield take 1-A stuff, hell recently too, that Celestial feat is 2022.
They know how strong Celestials are, they're whole thing is being cosmic forces, yet still went "damn but actually cap's shield is still indestructible to that lol".
You're cherry picking and assuming authorial intent instead of what actually happens. Show me it getting damaged by something of note in the past decade, if we want to argue intent, it being actually damaged would be a good example.
Literally any writer could pick up an issue that released the year before. Any writer at that was expected to even, writers don't just walk in and start writing without knowing what happened recently.
Like could you imagine a new Batman comic and Alfred is just standing there?
Except it's literally never been damaged in that entire time span up to present day from what I know.
You're arguing narrative, yet in the same instance ignoring the narrative, ignoring what happened, ignoring a whole storyline, and ignoring unchanged still canon lore, ALL due to an unfounded assumption of "they forgot".
I'm not humoring this, prove they forgot, prove what they intended, I want actual proof that your claim, which has now changed like 4 times this thread which is kinda sus tbh, to the point your current argument is legit "just ignore everything else and pretend it didn't happen", is actually what the writers intended.
That's the issue here isn't it?
Assumptions. You keep assuming things, taking these preconceived notions, and arguing it because surely it has to be the case right?
Nobody but you is arguing like that.
Me?
Is uru involved? Yep, this is a fact.
Was Stark (someone who can make 1-A stuff) involved? Yep, this is a fact.
Does uru have magic slop? Yep, it's the thing's entire gimmick.
Is magic both 1-A in concept and able to validate material withstanding such forces completely feasible simply due to how it works? Yep.
And least of all, does it actually have feats on that level after the upgrade? Yep.
That's it. That's what we know.
I am saying we know it has the feats, and the process and material that went into making it, validates and moreover doesn't cap it at any certain level, it's basically as indestructible as it's shown to be at that point.
You, on the other hand, are outright stating "no this did not happen", and essentially portraying your assumptions and notions as factual, when really, you don't know for a fact, all we have to go on is what's shown to us and what went into making it.
I did, multiple times, ages before you even joined the forum.
I've quoted the exact part too that establishes that something like magic, in the context of Marvel, would be valid even.
I mean that do be how magic works tho? It rewrites the lower narrative, in such a way, no?
If cap's shield is supposed to be bounce, it can bounce still, all while being basically indestructible.
Man, you're acting like the shield is a 1-A object, it isn't, it just has 1-A defenses.
The amount of trivial mundane things in Marvel that have smurf hax due to magic is staggering, it can be limited to 3D slop and still have that lil bit of smurf hax to it. It's no differ
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Also, this in itself is a big contradiction.
Short-wavelength electromagnetic waves in baseline reality (gamma rays) can't be 1-A. Natural laws like the law of gravity cannot be 1-A.
1-A things can alter those indirectly, but they can't be those things themselves.
This isn't strictly true, as I mentioned there are some ways around it, but the Thing That Is Doing 1-A Stuff needs to be that large. Lower things can present the illusion of doing that, by being a reference point for portals and the like, or by being able to mentally direct reality warping.
"Everything in the verse is 1-A, so it's not a contradiction" is self-defeating.
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For the record, I wouldn't be opposed to a 1-A downgrade for some Marvel slop, if issues exist.
I'm just against downgrading the shield because said shield scales to said things.
Whatever they are, this is basically imo.
Think he more means "most powers stem from a source that is 1-A" as opposed to everything being 1-A.
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If the default idea is that everything in the verse has a 1-A source, even without that being stated/implied, because science is magic, then that's pretty unworkable. The fundamental building blocks of reality cannot meaningfully see themselves as fiction.
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Dude, you’re saying the shield has 1-A invulnerability and yet can still have its matter excited by 3-D kinetic energy, which is impossible under current standards. Saying “if it doesn’t affect the magic aspect it doesn’t matter”, but you’re also saying the magic aspect gives the matter making up the shield a layer of protection keyed at 1-A based on the ontology of Marvel magic!
I’m sorry for being a little sensationalist, but you admitting this is itself contradictory, because you’re then compartmentalizing the durability of the shield and saying that things affecting it is fine because that’s only affecting the non-1-A part, but still saying it’s 1-A without showcasing the necessary invulnerability and inaccessibility inherent to a material thing with 1-A stats by “proxy”, especially durability. In fact, you’re already doing something like that in compartmentalizing the durability of the shield to 1-A and the attack potency to something completely below 1-A. You’re just making up your own standards at this point.
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But not impossible because magic, a 1-A force in and of itself, picks and chooses what is truth.
Yep. Magic rewrites the lower narrative. If magic says "this shield is completely unbreakable from 1-A or below" and also says "but it also functions as intended", that just be how it do. Not even news, Dr Strange is that the thesis.
Yep, that's always been the case even before the buff. Even more so now.
The shield itself isn't a 1-A object.
Except that's the exact opposite of what was said?
Except it has shown those things. It's literally never been damaged, it's taken and endured attacks from 1-A cosmic forces, and the shield itself, the very original premise of your CRT, is that it's still a material object.
I'm arguing "hey actually it was messed with by a 1-A inventor, and is made of this funny stuff that can literally rewrite reality, it isn't actually capped in terms of defense just because it's material".
Literally no rule on this forum says that all stats must be equal. Even at that scale.
A character, let's say a JRPG mook, can have 1-A divine protection from some eldritch outer god to where anything below 1-A is incapable of dealing damage to him, yet his ass is like 9-B in AP.
You're confusing the shield as an actual 1-A object, when nobody is arguing that's the case.
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Again, this goes back to the tiering system and the rules in which we index things here. Fiction is fiction, but we have standards with regard to how things like that work; something that’s materially not 1-A while having the analog to 1-A durability as mentioned in the linked revision thread in the OP (as discussed by Agnaa and Ultima) is specifically separated by all extendable material structures in terms of what can affect them, so even having an infinitesimal molecule of yourself excited by some heat from another room is technically an anti-feat, even if it’s hard to exactly qualify that (even as that’s qualified here for Cap’s shield, it specifically was excited by kinetic energy), so it more than anything is disqualified.
And I’m aware of the ability to have differing APs and durabilities here given that you’re not arguing it having a 1-A physiology, I’m just saying that the magic generated from the Uru in the shield in your view wouldn’t just stop at durability if you’re using Marvel magic, it would have things like conceptual manipulation and would be able to interact with supposed 1-A things even though non-1-A things can still affect it and potencies can be interacted with going both ways. It introduces continuity between all levels, and collapses everything. Saying “but magic can do anything” doesn’t solve anything when this would be explicitly a paradox in the logic we use here. Compartmentalization doesn’t follow.
Arkenis
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No I think you misunderstand or I do. Magic and Science are fundamentally tied together as concepts throughout the universe as governing concepts for how things work and encompass everything but they are also separate as forces in the universe, magic is what everything depends on but also science is what governs things normally, until it can't be explained like with gamma ray's example. So everything like molecules or atoms are just that, but they also are governed by magic and exist through it/because of it. The potency comes in depending how good someone is with it which depends on their mystic potential and skill/training. So everything isn't 1-A through magic/science.
Arkenis
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We literally have characters who operate as living paradoxes in marvel and just on site. How exactly is this an argument? Hell Magic itself exist as a nondualistic nature in verse and is explained as being paradoxical.
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You can’t just violate the standards and say “but it’s not supposed to make sense” and get away with it, because the standards are formalized such that you need to follow their logic lest you don’t get a tier at all. You can’t have your cake and eat it too, effectively.
Arkenis
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magic doesn't? It follows 1-A, but also shows itself to be lesser in nature. This is less of a violation and more of a rare case if anything.
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This doesn't actually show what you say. It says that science explains some things, while magic explains other inexplicable things. That certain beings can use extreme circumstances to impose extraordinary magical effects upon reality.
That does not mean, as you said...
Magic and science don't seemed to be a combined thing that everyone is participating in.
Plus, the stuff you're saying does run into other issues. There cannot be a power system where, say, using 10% of it makes you 8-B and using 90% of it makes you 1-A, that would make the difference quantitative (the greater thing is composed of a large amount of the lesser things), which disqualifies it from being 1-A.
It has to be a rather special case (a 1-A force deciding to intervene on a lesser scale, despite being able to do more, due to its own rules/decisions; maybe there's some others I can't think of rn) for that sort of thing to not be an issue.
From what I've seen in this thread, it sounds like Marvel probably has a bit of both. It probably does have characters charging up magic for stronger effects, despite the jump to 1-A needing to be a discontinuity, and as shown it does have statements about it involving convincing the universe. I haven't read enough to know which is more predominant.
We limit fiction rather heavily. We don't allow multiple Tier 0s, or characters stronger than Tier 0s, even though there are arguments one could present for that. We consider those too contradictory, and don't care if the series says "oh yeah it is meant to be a paradox".
Arkenis
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The rest I said can be read on the magic page whenever you get the chance.
I guess? Idk how that makes sense, but that seems like a bigger crt for discussing how to treat marvels scaling as a whole then.
I was more so arguing for magics inconsistencies stemming from it's paradoxical nature to explain why at times it can show 1-A and why other times it does not. But like I said and as the page has, magics tier is dependent on the user, like with any power system in fiction.
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Except magic. Like idk what you want me to say, magic in Marvel literally has the feats for all this to not matter.
It literally follows one of the very rules you're clinging to. You've just ignored it every, single, time.
It isn't a anti-feat because nothing happened. The object itself isn't 1-A. It has 1-A defenses, feats to show as much, and even if we take this argument of Gambit, explicitly effecting a facet of it which isn't even what grants it 1-A in this argument, in such a way it utterly failed, it still wouldn't be a anti-feat.
We have standards, rules, and we also have feats, and those very same standards that establish something like magic would enable such a thing.
And hell as someone mentioned mutants got that smurf potency ig, not that I would think him failing to effect the vibranium portion as a anti-feat to the uru portion that made it stronger than ever before is a reliable counterpoint in the first place.
Evidently not given you just argued it didn't have 1-A AP as a counterpoint.
It would stop, at whatever point magic says. It's meant to be an indestructible shield, that's what it'd be. It wouldn't gain all these extra abilities, it would just be infinitely harder to destroy because that's what the feats show and magic very much can be exclusive to a single facet, this should be self-evident to anyone who's read a bit of Dr Strange.
It literally does. For the same reason Dr. Strange or Doom can have a random spell that does a highly specific thing but at 1-A potency, so can this.
There's nothing saying it can't be the case, even by wiki standards we don't have any rules like that.
"Yeah this magic shield is made unbreakable by a 1-A source, and has feats of being unbreakable against 1-A things", doesn't mean it gets all this extra stuff, it just gets what it's shown, nothing more, nothing less. Yet here you are acting like it's physically a 1-A object, that magic is a straight upgrade to everything ever when even in general that isn't that case and every facet of it when all it is, is defenses, and then saying because it isn't 1-A as a whole, it isn't 1-A at all basically, even though this wiki DOES allow for weaker things to be granted 1-A facets even partially if it's through an external force with magic in Marvel basically verbatim acting like how it's worded on forum.
Like what do you want from me here? Your arguments have shifted from it's impossible and nothing it has could justify it scaling, to we don't know, to while it might be possible it isn't likely, to straight up arguing the writers forgot so we should ignore it, to now framing it as it MUST be 1-A in a bunch of extra facets but it isn't so nothing about it is. I'm at the point I can't even really argue this in good faith, it comes of as downgrading for the sake of it as opposed to it being a necessity and factually correct.
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The thing is, 3D to 4D, you can get there by stacking shit up. 1-A is built in such a way that reaching it like that is fundamentally impossible (Pretty much because it's beyond all math).
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Well then, I now present
Every Scan on the Marvel Magic Page Sorted by Whether They Are Compatible or Incompatible With 1-A
Compatible
- Magic is not science. (Scan 1, Scan 2, Scan 3, Scan 4)
- Magic arts defy all scientific laws. (Scan 1, )
- Magic is not science, nor does it follow the concept of logic. (Scan)
- A pulse that can disrupt every form of energy Reed Richards knows of except for gravity (Scan) did nothing to Doctor Doom's magic (Scan). (As an aside this is described incorrectly on the page; it's not "every type of scientific energy", it's explicitly limited to both his knowledge and gravity itself).
- Some books and scrolls in a library predate time itself. (Scan)
- Some spells were written in languages older than time. (Scan)
- A character waited while the multiverse was reborn to capture Eternity during their change from the seventh multiverse to the eighth. (Scan)
- Strange and Doom retained their magical powers. (Scan 1, Scan 2)
- Galactus' flagship can break through the fabric of hyperspace and reach the real universe. (Scan)
- The Vishanti have endless dimensions. (Scan)
- Galactus is a creature of Science who carries the laws of existence with him, his presence in the mystic realms may unbalance existence itself. (Scan) I don't actually view persistence of a characters' original traits when being brought to a more-real realm to be an issue, so this would not contradict the mystic realms being more real.
- A ship designed by Galactus was able to travel through a transition point to a different kind of space, seemingly a mystical universe. (Scan) This transition point is a great black hole. (Scan) Since we don't get details on the origin of this "transition point", it could be something made by more-real beings to make less-real things more-real, which would be consistent.
- The In-Betweener is a concept of concepts, he knows and affects all things but can't be touched by any of them. (Scan)
- The In-Betweener's powers don't function in places with no dichotomies, like the Nexus of Reality. The Lords Chaos and Order permitted this to work within the Sphere, even though they ordinarily wouldn't. (Scan)
- Thanos entered the Nexus of Reality, the fulcrum of existence. (Scan) I'm not flagging this as an issue, as we don't get an indication of how real Thanos was beforehand/in comparison to this. You don't need R>F differences to have a source of existence.
- Thanos endures when travelling through different planes of existence, as reality has a minimal effect on his being. (Scan) As long as he isn't travelling between them through his own power, or they aren't actually more/less real, being minimally effected between them isn't an issue.
- Strange backed his arcane incantations with the might of Lord Chaos and Master Order. (Scan)
- Magic knows no master. It belongs to neither gods nor men. There is magic even in the intent driving a dagger. One may become adept in magic's navigation; but never in its dominion. (Scan) If you take some portions of this as non-literal, such as the "magic" in the intent driving a dagger, or if you interpret that as magic intervening even in relatively mundane acts, this does not contradict with it being 1-A.
- Magic is nothing but symbolism weaponised. (Scan)
- Magic is metaphor, bonding symbol and reality to being the same thing. (Scan)
- Glyphs used by ancient cultures are information compressed into a higher form of symbology. The cheat code to reality. This technology communes with higher beings, gods. (Scan)
- Meaning is magic. Symbols and sigils are tools in the right sorcerous hands. (Scan)
- Magic is a thing of symbols and metaphors, signifiers of power. (Scan)
- Symbols and metaphors are the true reality. (Scan)
- A hero name is a magical name, it has power. (Scan)
- A sorceress took the name of Magik, and names have power. (Scan)
- The power of all magic is in naming. Should you possess the true name or identifying symbol of a thing, you would control that thing. (Scan)
- At its core, magic is taking a thought and making it real. Taking a lie and making it the truth. Telling a story to the universe so perfect that for a single moment, the world believes a man can fly. (Scan) This is a bit borderline, as "the universe" isn't more real, but some series use these terms in a strange way, it could be referring to a greater level that is more real.
- Maybe some stories are so good, powerful, and wanted that the universe believes them. So good they're magic, so good they come alive. Those oldest tales echo back to the start of things, mixing with the all-that-was and sparking something new. Or maybe that's just nonsense. This isn't anything definite. But even those maybes and might be's are magic words that make anything possible. (Scan)
- Magic does not need to be done by one who "knows magic", an incantation is just a story that convinces the forces of this world and beyond that what you wish to be real is. (Scan)
- True magic is the imposition of a narrative upon reality, telling a story to the world and making the world believe it. And if magic is narrative, then to be a creature of magic, to be a god, is to be a creature of story. (Scan)
- Doom is not his body, not his mind, he is the story of Doom. (Scan)
- A story is magic. Ullr, the maker of magics, his name gave shape to visionary, seer, and poet. He first stoked the telling-fire, around which magic words are spoken, and skalds tell their tales. In Ydalir, Ullr's own hall, the magic is powerful; great magic for a great tale, a tale not heard but lived. The magic words are "once upon a time". The story's changing as Dario reads it, skald-magic. (Scan)
Other
- Dead links
- the Mystic Universe is the parallel half of the scientific universe (Doctor Strange (2018) #13)
- A lot of these links have free comic ads that we should definitely be pruning, we shouldn't be advertising those sorts of websites.
Incompatible
- There are four kinds of magic. One involves tapping into one's own spiritual energies (ego-centric), one involves tapping into the magic surrounding everyone (eco-centric), one involves tapping into forces that exist in external realms invoking the aid of those beings (exo-centric), one involves drawing the energies created from sacrifice (necromantic). These energies can be manipulated to form and hurl energy blasts and shields. (Scan 1, Scan 2) Magic existing in these mundane places is evidence against it being more real.
- Nico Minoru (Sister Grimm) can tap into the forces of magic with her mother's Staff of One, letting her cast nearly any spell but never more than once. (Scan) Further context could exonerate this, but by itself, a less-real thing cannot tap into the help of something more-real without the assistance of something more-real.
- Magic was first formed in and by the Fifth Cosmos. (Scan 1, Scan 2) These earlier realities are separated from later ones by time. (Scan 1, Scan 2) If magic is a 1-A thing, and it didn't exist at some point in time, it should only matter on that more-real temporal axis, one which should be utterly inaccessible to beings who are below 1-A. Such a character would need to be made more-real by 1-A beings, and then sent back in time, to be able to experience something like that.
- The axes of power are magic & science, birth & death, and good & evil. These form the totality of everything. (Scan) Magic being on the same quantitative scale as science, which encompasses things that operate in baseline reality, is a big issue.
- Strange uses all the sorcerous strength at his command to make a planet explode. (Scan) My issue here isn't that the feat in question is exploding a planet, but that it seems to be presenting magic as a quantitative system, where more of it lets you do more potent things, with some of those things still being capped in the planet-busting regime. This cannot scale up to 1-A without issue.
- The implications of the rules of magic being rewritten are going to echo forward and backward across all realities. (Scan) If magic is 1-A, an alteration to its core mechanics should not be bound by the time of less-real things.
- There are some mystic dimensions, realms whose fundamental properties are governed by magic, that are closely connected to the Earthly plane. They are composed of the same basic elemental components that make up the physical planes. Some of these dimensions are very close to Earth. The Winding Way is a sentient plane that supplicants can use ecocentric and exocentric magic to draw power from. (Scan) This certainly doesn't present magic as being more-real than non-magic things.
- The Mystic Realms are among the dimensions closest to Earth, they are governed by the laws of magic. In there, apparitions plot to subsume the Earth within their realms. All Earthly magicians draw their power from the Mystic Realms and, ultimately, the Well Beyond the Worlds that is the fabled font of all magical energy. (Scan) This places magical energy, and the source of it, as being a quantitative thing these beings can draw on.
- There are mystical barriers in Galactus' path, which he wants Strange's help passing through, as his forte is travel through physical space. (Scan) This shows that mystical barriers exist interspersed with ordinary physical space, which is incompatible with them being 1-A or above.
- Oshtur left Earth in the days before her brethren were expelled. When learning of others creating power bases close to the Earthly sphere, she created her own stronghold on the astral plane, so that Earth's benevolent magicians could access her wisdom and power. (Scan) This talk of physical proximity, and having previously existed on Earth, do not present her or the astral plane as being more real.
- Magic is allegorically having a stroke, the artery that carries magic through the universe has ruptured. For Strange to fix this by properly performing surgery on Eternity, the manifestation of all things including magic, he needs all Earthly magicians to use as little magic as possible, although a little use of the Scrying Gem is still fine. (Scan) This presents magic as a continuous quantity, flowing through all of reality, of which the draws for Earthly magicians represent a notable amount. All of which goes against it being a more real thing, distinct from and irreducible to lower stuff.
- Galactus, upon his death, imploded, drawing into him the bits of existence still remaining in that reality. A tangential reality, Hell, wasn't directly affected, though Mephisto was upset by the lack of a steady stream of infinitely many souls to feast upon this caused. Strange was tasked with unwinding the remains of the universe, using magic to repair it. Eternity gives Strange's one set of human hands the magical power to implement this. If he fails to re-implement things properly from this external point of view, he risks non-existence. (Scan) This can cause issues if souls aren't established as being more-real, if no reason is given for Mephisto being unable to create another less-real realm with his own power, and if no reason is given for how his apparently now more-real self would depend on the specifics of the supposedly less-real world he's instantiating/repairing.
- The In-Betweener's prison rests between the polarities of actuality, and has guards that are creatures of mixed reality. (Scan) This is incoherent from the view of "real-ness" we use for 1-A.
- The Magick Realm is a place between fact and fantasy from which many magic users draw their power. (Scan) This both presents an incoherent view of real-ness, and indicates that magic users can draw from this potentially more-real realm, a contradiction of 1-A.
- A number of races claim to draw energy from a realm where two opposing gods dwell. (Scan) If they are pulling power from this place using their own power, it cannot be 1-A. 1-A power cannot be taken by lesser beings without the aid of a 1-A.
- The first magic, the sign of five, the five elements of all-that-is, the foundation, the world underfoot. (Scan) Indicates that magic is the world itself, something composing it, rather than something which sees it as fiction.
- Eternity is the universe itself, but is also merely one cell of a higher multiversal Eternity, a cosmic lineage stretching back to the first conflict. They are all this, all of this is them. And all of this is contained in the mask formed of their own substance. (Scan) This is textbook description of quantitative composition, these differences cannot represent qualitative jumps. (This is also described incorrectly in the page, the five elements here are VERY different from the ones mentioned in the previous scan)
- Magic is believed by scholars to be the basis of quantum physics and M-Theory, which posits eleven dimensions of space-time. (Scan) Does anyone need me to explain why an 11-dimensional theory of physics can't be 1-A?
- Magic is not science. Some things, like gamma, are a little of both. It's predictable, it has rules, until it doesn't, until it makes metaphor people and is magic. (Scan) A quantitative theory and a qualitative theory can't really come together for phenomena like this, they're different domains where one of them utterly trumps the other. (One of the instances where this is described on the page is quite wack; it doesn't say that magic "creates beings of story and metaphor", and that it's "immeasurable, unpredictable, and not bound by any laws or rules". I can kind of see some of these, by taking the negation of the description of "science" as always applying, even if it goes a bit far for that, but I don't know where it gets "beings of story" from)
- Gamma radiation is a measurable scientific phenomenon, and from another angle, from above or below, it's a magic spell. (Scan) A phenomenon like this cannot both be a real scientific one, and magic that sees it as fiction.
- Knowing magic words is not enough, you need power to do magic. (Scan) This doesn't cohere with magic being a higher more-real thing, unless the power is granted by other more-real things.
- Mia DiMaria was unexpectedly placed into a remarkable guardianship because she spoke words of power and the universe bent. Magic is on the opposite end of a spectrum from magic, these Centivars study magic from the perspective of science. (Scan) I believe this presents magic as being equally as real as science, indicating against it being more real.
(Also, note that compatible =/= supportive; it just means they don't cause issues, many of them would work just as fine with weaker magic)
I Lied
Okay this isn't all scans, it took me over three hours to go through one sixth of it. I hope that's considered studious enough, especially since parts of it read like no-one had actually vetted them yet; see my comments in parenthesis at the end of some of these lines for those. I hope I don't need to do another 17 hours of this to conclude the thread.My impression so far is that some more-recent stories describe magic in this sort of way, but that for most of its history, it was described in ways that were quite inconsistent with this. Even from these scans which are presumably skewed more towards the former than the source material as a whole, I still found it leaning towards the latter.
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Chop chop.
Then it comes to the fact that, do we go with more recent iterations of magic and take that as how we currently treat it, or do we take older interpretations of it.
Comics change, and they change often. The question becomes how long does it have to be portrayed as one thing to supersede an older portrayal.
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I agree about that our Marvel Comics tiering, including for the magic users and astral plane telepaths, seem to have been exaggerated to ridiculous extremes, but this is also due to the extremely dadaistically illogical nature of Marvel Comics storytelling as a whole, wherein writers systematically regularly push Thor and other characters up and down between tiers 9-C to 1-A mostly depending on their personal biases regarding if they hate or love a character. There is no coherence or logic whatsoever in their storytelling. The writers largely just don't care at all about such storytelling qualities.
For example, Storm is soon going to beat up, or at least put up a serious fight against, a Mesopotamian storm deity who is somehow supposed to be second in power only to The One Above All, a High 1-A character, and she used to strictly being limited to producing local, at most tier 6-B, weather effects, and still doesn't have any personal feats much beyond that scale other than that she is allowed to effortlessly beat up absolutely anybody else, no matter how overpowered they are, again, purely out of irrational biases from the writers.
As such, I am extremely open for help with fixing our tiers, but am not sure how to accomplish it.
@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Catzlaflame @Emirp sumitpo @IdiosyncraticLawyer @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack @Eficiente @Adr10K @Rex_Eckles @The_Impress
Your help would be greatly appreciated here.
For example, Storm is soon going to beat up, or at least put up a serious fight against, a Mesopotamian storm deity who is somehow supposed to be second in power only to The One Above All, a High 1-A character, and she used to strictly being limited to producing local, at most tier 6-B, weather effects, and still doesn't have any personal feats much beyond that scale other than that she is allowed to effortlessly beat up absolutely anybody else, no matter how overpowered they are, again, purely out of irrational biases from the writers.
As such, I am extremely open for help with fixing our tiers, but am not sure how to accomplish it.
@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Catzlaflame @Emirp sumitpo @IdiosyncraticLawyer @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack @Eficiente @Adr10K @Rex_Eckles @The_Impress
Your help would be greatly appreciated here.
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Yeah. Might also help to see whether that instinct's right; I can't really tell the difference between late 2000s artstyle and 2020s artstyle, maybe some contradictions I assumed were before this shift (i.e. this one) are actually after, making the "shift" less concrete, putting it more as a flash-in-the-pan adopted by some writers, rather than a new company-wide regime.
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That one is 2010. Which is recent? But also not really?
Like to me that doesn't feel that old but that predates half this wiki's userbase so....
Ig we cross check the important lines with the "yeah nah this shit is cooked" lines and see when they generally came out to see if there's a consistent shift in portrayal.
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I do not think that there is a major shift in art style between those eras, other than improving digital tools for colouring and similar, although Rob Liefeld and others obviously had a very negative far right ultramilitant jingoistic tribalist bloodthirsty sadistic influence on the art style and storytelling during much of the 1990s.
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Anyway, giving a large part of the Marvel Comics characters minimum, maximum, and average statistics, might be our only good longterm solution for such a staggeringly enormously inconsistent verse.
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Depending on how the evidence falls, the main routes I see right now are:Anyway, giving a large part of the Marvel Comics characters minimum, maximum, and average statistics, might be our only good longterm solution for such a staggeringly enormously inconsistent verse.
- Some amount of 1-A things get downgraded, probably to High 1-B.
- 1-A remains, but some have that rating land under Varies, with it being outlined in their weaknesses that if they fail to convince reality that they ought manifest more power in that moment, that they will be weaker. Leaving them vulnerable to other characters who direct the whims of reality.
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'V("/)V'Anyway, giving a large part of the Marvel Comics characters minimum, maximum, and average statistics, might be our only good longterm solution for such a staggeringly enormously inconsistent verse.
We can also just not accept dogshit versewide revisions and apply the revisions that do look decent properly. 90% of this shit is chalked up to mismanagement and deteriorating patience of the staff that ended up remaining. Not pointing fingers but like, the verse is in a bad shape any way you put it, and it's imo far more just a lack of focus from the supporterbase rather than anything else.
Anyways 3 pages down and I need to know what are the relevant arguments to comment properly, so if anyone can compile the messages from either side I'd be glad
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At this point the current topic seems to be more if the 1-A stuff is even 1-A, as opposed to if the funny shield eating attacks from 1-A stuff is the issue.
Other than that, something about
Old shield vs Uru infused Stark amped shield creating a disconnect between feats before and after 2011 due to a upgraded much stronger shield.
Something about magic and Stark working on the new shield not inherently capping it at any certain lv below said things' threshold without proof, and instead just going by whatever feats it has below the aforementioned caps.
Something about the shield can't have 1-A aspects because it can be interacted with at all.
Something about they haven't mentioned the upgrade in awhile in uni so we should ignore the fact it happened.
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Chariot's pretty much got it, but I already wrote some of this so I'll spin my version too.
We seem to agree that old shield shouldn't be 1-A regardless, while Uru-infused one has Some Arguments under this idea that would have it not violate our 1-A standards. But as I'm not very familiar with Marvel, I question whether that explanation is actually one consistently applied to Cap's shield; Osemere brought up this newer guidebook attributing the invulnerability of Cap's shield to its special metallurgy as an indication against that.
If we do put it at 1-A for those Uru reasons, it should probably be "Varies, up to 1-A (Its durability depends on convincing the universe that the shield is invulnerable, if that's put into doubt it could be far weaker)", so it could be vulnerable to some reality-convincers from other series without them being 1-A.
If we don't put it at 1-A, High 1-B might work, since we have lower standards for this sort of thing at that point.
Also from reading a decent chunk of the magic page, I think a lot of its reasonings are sus and seem to mostly only cohere with 1-A through recent statements, with a loooot of old material not being able to work with that tier. But that might end up being quite a bigger topic.
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1-A downgrade is a separate yet still connected topic, because there is ALOT more arguments for that one. As said, this is a result of 3 years of ******* up and mismanagement, so there is a significant amount wrong with it that isn't addressable in a single thread, so I think it should be left for now.
I lowkey think the shield downgrade should be paired with that greater conversation because it would just be... far easier and more comprehensive to do, but I assume people wouldn't be down for that since its beyond the scope of this OP.
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This is actually the better opinion, if you wanna downgrade a major scaling point, then affect all the parties involved, not just a random character because it being a funny 1-A shield is outrageous.
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I still think that this seems like our only genuinely reliable longterm solution here. This verse automatically creates impossibly illogical scaling chains otherwise.Anyway, giving a large part of the Marvel Comics characters minimum, maximum, and average statistics, might be our only good longterm solution for such a staggeringly enormously inconsistent verse.
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tbh I just think it eating 1-A attacks consistently either means that shit scales, or said things ain't 1-A.
Either, or, picking one or the other is just sus ngl.
The fact two seperate things we accept as being able to reach those levels were directly involved in its creation just kinda shoots down the whole it's got antifeats prior to it notion.
If they're 1-A, it's 1-A, hell if they're 9-B, it's 9-B. But at that point that isn't the shield's fault, it's the other thing's fault.
Either, or, picking one or the other is just sus ngl.
The fact two seperate things we accept as being able to reach those levels were directly involved in its creation just kinda shoots down the whole it's got antifeats prior to it notion.
If they're 1-A, it's 1-A, hell if they're 9-B, it's 9-B. But at that point that isn't the shield's fault, it's the other thing's fault.
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Basically because it ties into the "Why the absolute **** does Thor have 4 different ratings you can scale to?" since by holdback logic there should only be one singular rating, and the question becomes whether or not you scale to Thor at his peak or not. This helps ground the character scaling and still account for outliers.
But because we got, I repeat, 4 different tiering ends accepted for Thor, the question to scale becomes meaningless and vibes-based, since if you beat a non-held back Thor, what tier do you even end up in? 3-C? Low 1-C? 1-A? Keep in mind all of the core scaling feats for 1-A, 3-C and Low 1-C are done BY Thor, or characters who hold back similarly to Thor, it's not anchored to a character that could give you a tangible result everytime you fight him. Because otherwise HOW do you know to what level Thor lowers his power to, to fight you? He usually never says shit like "I WILL LOWER MY POWER LEVEL TO EXACTLY 5TH DIMENSIONAL STRENGTH TO PUNCH YOU THIS TIME"
SO Thor's tier should actually be (High-End), with a note stating he's unreliable to scale to unless the character explicitly beats a serious Thor (with consideration to common sense and PIS and all that jazz ofc).
This in turn means, however, that every character who has fought a serious Thor, isn't 3-C, or Low 1-C, but 1-A, be it Thanos or Captain Marvel or whatever, are 1-A, and as such the threshold of feats required to get a consistent rating increases exponentially, and therefore A **** TON of characters rated anywhere above 5-B currently, will need to have their tier re-evaluated, and that in turn affects the number of things the shield withstands, that are actually 1-A. Add to that jank ass cosmological scalings and not recognising cosmic villains jobbing as jobbing, you basically are opening a Pandora's Box of supporter and staff depression.
So yeah most ******* in Marvel are probably not 1-A, or they could be, the thread required to tackle that is a bigger and more extensive thread.
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Again, it is not remotely just Thor. He regularly goes up and down between handgun level (9-C) and high-level cosmic entity level (1-A) depending on how much each writer hates (usually) or loves (occasionally) the character, but it regularly happens to a large part of Marvel Comics characters.
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It's 80% just Thor, from my experience. They love holdbacc on Thor and Thor-related fuckos. You don't see shit on remotely the same level for guys like, Spider-Man or smth. (juxtaposition of grandiose epic storytelling in his own classic runs vs. "its Hammer Time my fellow Avengers/Jane Foster and friends") Also Silver Surfer and Hulk but they're way more explicit in holding back/varying their strength levels.
But yeah Thor's a wild one.
I disagree with it applying to everyone since that's like, "these characters don't have outliers" type cope. Most writers do tend to fall back on some power level of consistency for these characters. It's not perfect, but it's very much there imo. Shit like "Yeah Daredevil could probably withstand shit that would floor normies instantly" or "Yeah Spider-Man could probably withstand getting chucked through a skyscraper"
But yeah Thor's a wild one.
I disagree with it applying to everyone since that's like, "these characters don't have outliers" type cope. Most writers do tend to fall back on some power level of consistency for these characters. It's not perfect, but it's very much there imo. Shit like "Yeah Daredevil could probably withstand shit that would floor normies instantly" or "Yeah Spider-Man could probably withstand getting chucked through a skyscraper"
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In that case we wait for Eseseso and Ultima (When he finishes his exams) to make the CRT down the line, since once that happens this conversation will turn entirely meaningless.
And I do agree with Impress for once that our "hold-back policy for Marvel" specifically is utter f-u-c-k-i-n-g garbage. Very few people scale to Thor at his peak. Even fewer have a legitimate "Power varies" mechanism, like Sentry and Hulk, and Thor still eclipses them when he goes all out.
Others that don't fall under the above we should just find separate feats for.
Honestly we should just make a separate scaling chain for Marvel when we get the time.
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I would at the very least argue that it greatly applies to all Marvel superheroes that we currently tier as 1-A, or similar ridiculously overpowered statistics, likely to lots of the Low 2-C and above crew as well, and various characters that have been portrayed at such levels, but we haven't updated yet, such as Spectrum (almost matched a Beyonder, and was later stated to have comparable power to one and to be capable of destroying infinite universes) and Blue Marvel (destroyed the physical form of a Beyonder).
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Scarlet Witch, Franklin Richards, Wiccan, Legion, Loki, Spectrum, Storm, Phoenix, and Escapade have all been portrayed as enormously more powerful than Thor at his peak as far as I am aware, and Marvel writers are continuously doing as much as they are allowed to downplay and character-assassinate Thor in combination.
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Tbf Chariot is right.
If y'all want to downgrade the shield because of its physicality, then all the "feats" of it blocking attacks from 1-A entities are actually anti-feats for said 1-A entities, meaning you guys should re-evalutate them instead of just him.
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