Captain America’s shield revision/downgrade

[Osemere]

Captain America’s current profile indexes his shield’s durability at 1-A, with this current justification:

Durability: Building level, Outerverse level with his shield (Rogers' shield is cast from Proto-Adamantium, an extremely durable steel-Vibranium mixture alloyed with an unknown catalyst. It can endure a blow from Thor with the Odinforce, who only slightly dented it. After Cul Borson broke it, Tony Stark had it repaired and enhanced with Uru metal, making it even more durable. In this new form, it blocked a strike from Thor with the Odinforce and withstood an attack from a Celestial.

All fine and good, right? It takes hits from 1-A characters like Thor as the All-Father, so it seems pretty standard in terms of how scaling goes here. Except the problem is that this breaks the current standards on things 1-A and above. Quoting from the FAQ:

Q: Can a character have physical stats qualitatively superior to their own state of existence?

A: Broadly: No. The crucial thing to note about 1-A and above is that these tiers, in the relevant respect here, are completely discontinuous with lower ones. Therefore, no extension or add-ups of things from a lower reality (i.e. No quantitative increases) can measure up to a qualitatively greater plane of existence, and this applies to physical strength no less than it does to size. Thus, even if they are being boosted by a force from the corresponding level, a character from a lesser reality can't have qualitatively greater physical strength. The entity could not produce such a thing in the same way it could not produce a spatial object that is larger than itself.

That said, while they cannot be at this level by having their own physical power increased, they might be endowed with, or awaken, metaphysical attributes that allow them to imitate and influence things on a 1-A* and higher scale. For example, consider the following scenario: A cosmology that includes both a physical level and an "informational" level that both transcends the physical and holds the "coding" of all the things in it. An entity capable of influencing the informational level then "locks" a certain person's code, and makes them unable to be interfered with even by other beings on a similar level to itself. This alteration to the metaphysical make-up of the person then emanates downwards into their physical body, and likewise makes them unable to be harmed by anything in the physical world.

In general, a character that is of a lower reality yet has, e.g. "1-A durability," would be receiving a metaphysical alteration that completely overwrites their own physical attributes. In the case of a cosmology that receives such a rating from Reality-Fiction Transcendences, for instance, say in a situation where the lower reality is a drawing to the higher reality, this alteration would not be the character becoming so materially "tough" that the artist cannot erase their drawing anymore. Rather, it would be an alteration at the level of the drawing itself.

A similar case, therefore, goes for Attack Potency. A character from a lower reality cannot "punch with 1-Aforce," because even if the higher reality has a concept of force, it is completely disconnected from that of the lower reality and therefore there is nothing that can bridge the two. They can, however, serve as a sort of conduit for power from a higher level, and thereby imitate qualitatively greater Attack Potency.

However, keep in mind: Just because a character from a lower reality is being empowered by something from a higher plane, does not mean that we can pass over any instances of ilicit interactions that might count as anti-feats towards the higher reality being 1-A. This is because, as said before, even an entity from a qualitatively greater level of existence cannot bring a thing to its own level simply by quantitatively increasing their strength. Therefore, if this empowerment is clearly one entirely focused around increasing their existing statistics while keeping them fundamentally unchanged instead of overwriting the very way in which they operate, it cannot be used to avoid or excuse anti-feats.

In which case, evidence must be given and weighed up in order to determine whether the empowerment is metaphysical in nature, either by explicit statements, or contextual indications that make such a thing sufficiently probable. For example: If the verse consistently insists on the inaccessible and invulnerable nature that the higher plane has by virtue of its greater ontology, and then a character from a lower reality is only able to influence it due to the interference of something from this higher realm.

First note that the shield is a quantitative object in 3-dimensional space, and thereby receives its characteristics of durability through its material physiology. It is “tough” due to being made of exceptionally tough materials as mentioned in its durability justification (Proto-Adamantium and Vibranium), but this means that the 1-A durability justification is claiming that its “toughness” is qualitatively superior to its physiology, which is inherently quantitative. And this is what’s “broadly” rejected by the quoted passage.

Even ignoring this, what’s traditionally utilized on this wiki (eg in order to avoid anti-feats against 1-A for a particular character in an otherwise 1-A setting) is the point that having 3-D characters with 1-A attack potency or durability is “possible” through a higher metaphysical-energy system which supports abilities operating on a qualitatively higher metaphysical-level. This is the case with something like Magic in Marvel, but as noted in the passage from the FAQ above, even this is further qualified with regard to the physical statistics of these 3-D characters and their specific relation to this metaphysical-energy system. Yet, even if we go with the maximalist interpretation that was in effect before this revision to the FAQ went through which qualified the previous standards, Cap’s shield has no justification for operating on a metaphysical-form of invulnerability, and none of the metals composing the shield’s frame are even mystical before its reforging with Uru after Cul destroyed it (more on that later).

Secondarily, this shield specifically has anti-feats in terms of having its supposed 1-A durability derived from significantly strong molecular cohesion (which, of course, is a quantitative process), and messing with these molecules can negate the durability of this shield, which would be impossible if its durability was qualitatively superior to its quantitative physiology:

• Avengers Vol 1 #215. Molecule Man through matter-manipulation pulls the shield apart, explicitly stating that despite the shield’s otherwise “invincibility”, its composition of molecules made it vulnerable, even if those molecules possessed tougher bonds than anything Molecule Man had seen before. Note that this is specifically before Molecule Man’s mental blocks were unlocked during Secret Wars (which resulted in him being H1-B through utilizing his abilities as an incomplete cosmic cube).
• Captain America Vol 3 #21. After Doctor Doom destroyed Captain America’s shield with the Beyonder’s powers in the original Secret Wars, it was reformed using those powers, but its restored form had one Vibranium molecule out of alignment, causing a flaw in the entire shield which caused it to disintegrate as opposed to being indestructible. Obviously, its 1-A durability (if qualitatively superior to its physiology) shouldn’t be affected by the misalignment of molecules in this physiology, and if it was 1-A, it wouldn’t be destroyed by a H1-B Doctor Doom.

But this is all with regard to the old shield before it was destroyed by Cul, right? It being 1-A should be fine through it being reforged with Uru? Well, no. Quoting from a particular paragraph in the already quoted passage of the FAQ:

However, keep in mind: Just because a character from a lower reality is being empowered by something from a higher plane, does not mean that we can pass over any instances of ilicit interactions that might count as anti-feats towards the higher reality being 1-A. This is because, as said before, even an entity from a qualitatively greater level of existence cannot bring a thing to its own level simply by quantitatively increasing their strength. Therefore, if this empowerment is clearly one entirely focused around increasing their existing statistics while keeping them fundamentally unchanged instead of overwriting the very way in which they operate, it cannot be used to avoid or excuse anti-feats.

The enchanted Uru was infused with the broken fragments of the shield as a gift to Cap from Odin’s smiths, and is explicitly an example of an empowerment entirely focused around increasing statistics without fundamentally changing or overwriting the way the shield fundamentally operates. It’s just a “tougher” shield because it’s made from another metal on top of Vibranium and Proto-Adamantium. It should be noted that the fragments from the old shield (made from those metals) are still part of the frame, just fused with Uru, which would still make it quantitative physiologically and impossibly 1-A. Even if you want to make the argument that Uru’s durability is 1-A due to its mystical properties (which would probably contradict the FAQ itself, as it’s still a physical metal), it being merged with clearly non-1-A materials in an attempt to create a greater whole than all the materials individually is obviously another anti-feat. This is all besides that Uru physically being 1-A also has the same problems, as Thor pretty casually (as in, rated L1-C here by our standards) used his physical fingers (quantitative entities) to carve things out of Uru before. It being 1-A just has the same problems as Vibranium does.

So, what do we do about this? Technically you can take this far enough to claim that this is a huge vulnerability of potential anti-feats for Marvel’s existing 1-As, as any of them failing to destroy Captain America’s shield would obviously mean they’re operating on a quantitative level. Alternatively if these implications are too impractical, just downgrading the shield could be a temporary solution without diving too deep on pain of some unwieldy consequential revisions. I leave the exact implications to staff discretion, even if I think the fundamental point (that the shield should not be 1-A) ought to be preserved in any case.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I think this is a whole lot of hoopla when the feats seem to speak for themselves, especially that Celestial feat and the recent one he got from Goji.

 

[That_moron2]

Following

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I think this is a whole lot of hoopla when the feats seem to speak for themselves, especially that Celestial feat and the recent one he got from Goji.

Pretty sure if we keep it, the Celestial loses its 1-A rating

 

[Chariot190]

Only two anti-feats that at the time weren't anti-feats?
Shouldn't there be more if it's legitimately not scaling to the top dogs?

As for the first thing, literally opens up with "Broadly:", it's a generalization, a rule of thumb, (and not even actual reasoning, the wiki isn't gospel), exceptions will always exist. If something simply has the feats or scaling, it is what it is, it's only really an issue if the 1-A comes from R>F, which isn't the case here last I checked.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Only two anti-feats that at the time weren't anti-feats?
Shouldn't there be more if it's legitimately not scaling to the top dogs?

As for the first thing, literally opens up with "Broadly:", it's a generalization, a rule of thumb, (and not even actual reasoning, the wiki isn't gospel), exceptions will always exist. If something simply has the feats or scaling, it is what it is, it's only really an issue if the 1-A comes from R>F, which isn't the case here last I checked.

A thing belonging to lower reality cant have 1-A durability period.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

it's only really an issue if the 1-A comes from R>F, which isn't the case here last I checked.

1-A comes from both the Beyond-Dimensional Existence and R>F Transcendence possessed by Universal Abstracts.

(Stated to be the strongest of all mystic entities, and to have stood above the War of Seven Spheres in its entirety, thus placing him above the likes of Slorioth, a participant of the War described as a pan-dimensional entity whose totality is vast beyond what any single dimensionality could hope to contain, extending over all higher dimensions, of which there are infinite. Encompasses and exists beyond Subspace, which spans an infinite number of higher dimensions, as well as the universe of the Beyonder, holding them and the rest of his own contents as a figment of his thoughts and dreams. Fathered the Voyager, an entity native to the Cascade, a realm existing above an infinite number of nested higher-dimensional levels described as "ever-increasing spheres and sedimentary layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe." Contains the Astral Plane as a substrate within him, with the Astral Plane being "the realm of Idea, Thought and Narrative" and entirely beyond all forms of space and time)

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

1-A comes from both the Beyond-Dimensional Existence and R>F Transcendence possessed by Universal Abstracts.

It doesn't matter anyways since R>F is just a generalized term for qualitative superiority here, so it all ends up the same.

 

[Osemere]

Only two anti-feats that at the time weren't anti-feats?

Cap’s shield hasn’t changed in its essential characteristics since those instances; they’re meant to show explicit exposition that the shield’s durability is based on its material composition, which means it can’t have “1-A durability”.

As for the first thing, literally opens up with "Broadly:", it's a generalization, a rule of thumb, (and not even actual reasoning, the wiki isn't gospel), exceptions will always exist.

I agree that there are exceptions, but as I noted in the OP, Cap’s shield doesn’t have one.

 

[Chariot190]

1-A comes from both the Beyond-Dimensional Existence and R>F Transcendence possessed by Universal Abstracts.

It is what it is ig.
If the feats exist, and they're consistent, and this just so happens to scale consistently, which by the looks of it seems to be the case given the two anti feats are things from decades ago by power sources that in and of themselves have the potential for tier 1 and predate the 1-A stuff for the most part (which at that point barely even count as anti-feats), then it scales.

Cap’s shield hasn’t changed in its essential characteristics since those instances; they’re meant to show explicit exposition that the shield’s durability is based on its material composition, which means it can’t have “1-A durability”.

It can have literally whatever it wants? It's a comic, it can be dumb, stupid even, make zero sense logically, bu if it keeps happening, and the 1-A feats themselves aren't wrong, then it is what it is.
We can't just ignore it because we as a wiki have preconceived notions that act more as a guideline than any sort of concrete rule.

I agree that there are exceptions, but as I noted in the OP, Cap’s shield doesn’t have one.

The scaling itself is the exception lad.
unless the 1-A feats are wrong, or it's 1-A scaling is a one-off thing, ie, an outlier, then it just scales.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

It is what it is ig.
If the feats exist, and they're consistent, and this just so happens to scale consistently, which by the looks of it seems to be the case given the two anti feats are things from decades ago by power sources that in and of themselves have the potential for tier 1 and predate the 1-A stuff for the most part (which at that point barely even count as anti-feats), then it scales.

It can have literally whatever it wants? It's a comic, it can be dumb, stupid even, make zero sense logically, bu if it keeps happening, and the 1-A feats themselves aren't wrong, then it is what it is.
We can't just ignore it because we as a wiki have preconceived notions that act more as a guideline than any sort of concrete rule.

The scaling itself is the exception lad.
unless the 1-A feats are wrong, or it's 1-A scaling is a one-off thing, ie, an outlier, then it just scales.

Well you can have what it seems to be most blatant 1-A, but the moment you start including quantitative things into the mix then it can all go tumbling down to low 1-A.

Giving exceptions because lol comics is just widely hypocritical.

 

[Osemere]

It is what it is ig.
If the feats exist, and they're consistent, and this just so happens to scale consistently, which by the looks of it seems to be the case given the two anti feats are things from decades ago by power sources that in and of themselves have the potential for tier 1 and predate the 1-A stuff for the most part (which at that point barely even count as anti-feats), then it scales.

It can have literally whatever it wants? It's a comic, it can be dumb, stupid even, make zero sense logically, bu if it keeps happening, and the 1-A feats themselves aren't wrong, then it is what it is.
We can't just ignore it because we as a wiki have preconceived notions that act more as a guideline than any sort of concrete rule.

The scaling itself is the exception lad.
unless the 1-A feats are wrong, or it's 1-A scaling is a one-off thing, ie, an outlier, then it just scales.

You can take this as your personal view, but it’s just not how this wiki works in its standards for indexing. “Fiction can be whatever” is a good argument against a tiering system, but not a good argument for preserving a tier in a system you admittedly disagree with.

 

[Chariot190]

Well you can have what it seems to be most blatant 1-A, but the moment you start including quantitative things into the mix then it can all go tumbling down to low 1-A.

"Can" is not "will". If we have the most blatant 1-A, then it's blatantly 1-A?
Quantivity merely supports that fact, no?

Giving exceptions because lol comics is just widely hypocritical.

Because anything. Comics, games, movies, etc. If something is consistently given 1-A statements, feats, and whatever the case.
And then something just so happens to scale,

That doesn't inherently invalidate anything. Especially if in this context it actually is empowered by some funny meme 1-A odin slop.

Why you think I hold this stance strictly because of comics is beyond me, we're an indexing wiki first and foremost. We're supposed to index things properly, as they actually are, and if the funny metal consistently scales to things that are also consistently 1-A, then we should actually index it without getting preconceived notions get in the way regardless of how logistically on paper it sounds messed up.

 

[Chariot190]

You can take this as your personal view, but it’s just not how this wiki works in its standards for indexing. “Fiction can be whatever” is a good argument against a tiering system, but not a good argument for preserving a tier in a system you admittedly disagree with.

Huh? The very thing you claim, is in and of itself a rule of thumb, not a factual 100% "always this or nothing" fact.

It's precisely how this wiki works, we index as it is, if this is indexing it properly, that's where that "broadly speaking" comes into play. You'd only be right here if the rules said no matter as opposed to outright acknowledging it isn't always the case. That isn't what it says though, acting like it is isn't an argument.

 

[Osemere]

Huh? The very thing you claim, is in and of itself a rule of thumb, not a factual 100% "always this or nothing" fact.

It's precisely how this wiki works, we index as it is, if this is indexing it properly, that's where that "broadly speaking" comes into play. You'd only be right here if the rules said no matter as opposed to outright acknowledging it isn't always the case.

I understand this, which is why I quoted the passage in the FAQ in its totality, which explains what the exceptions are to that clause (eg having a 1-A aspect which is invincible in its ontological layer, emanating down the entire cosmology such that all “aspects” of it are invincible on every qualitative level). Cap’s shield is literally just a 3-D object with no metaphysical aspect; that given exception doesn’t apply here.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Why you think I hold this stance strictly because of comics is beyond me, we're an indexing wiki first and foremost. We're supposed to index things properly, as they actually are, and if the funny metal consistently scales to things that are also consistently 1-A, then we should actually index it without getting preconceived notions get in the way regardless of how logistically on paper it sounds messed up.

This isn't really a new thing, a bunch of verses lose their 1-A for stuff like this, one that comes to mind is Slay The Princess, which also would have a 1-A rating not from R>F transcence, but can't cause a supposedly 3D entity could interact with them somehow.

Like 1-A has some real strict standard, one anti-feat and you can't be 1-A anymore. It's by design.

 

[Chariot190]

This isn't really a new thing, a bunch of verses lose their 1-A for stuff like this, one that comes to mind is Slay The Princess, which also would have a 1-A rating not from R>F transcence, but can't cause a supposedly 3D entity could interact with them somehow.

I quite frankly don't care about other verses, I'm not here to whataboutism.
We're talking about if the funny 1-A shield scales to what we rate as 1-A currently.
It does.

Like 1-A has some real strict standard, one anti-feat and you can't be 1-A anymore. It's by design.

Then go make the thread instead. Far as I'm concerned as long as those things 1-A, so is the shield as it has the required feats.

I understand this, which is why I quoted the passage in the FAQ in its totality, which explains what the exceptions are to that clause (eg having a 1-A aspect which is invincible in its ontological layer, emanating down the entire cosmology such that all “aspects” of it are invincible on every qualitative level).

Examples as to what can be exceptions isn't an all encompassing list of every possible reason in existence as to why it might not inherently be the case.

Cap’s shield is literally just a 3-D object with no metaphysical aspect; that given exception doesn’t apply here.

By this logic any dimensional gap is invalidated, yet we as a wiki absolutely do not do this.
We have 3D characters punching the shit out of each other with 4D power as just one example.

You, yourself, pointed out it is empowered by Odin's slop to at least some minor degree, wouldn't the very fact it's infused with what, in this context, would be some abstract 1-A magic implicitly make it so that regardless of its physical make up, the enchanted parts of it still protect it no?
Like you wouldn't say a 1-A can't protect a 9-B right?

All the same, your CRT is wrong, you're not even arguing if it scales to them, you're arguing that 1-A itself is wrong. That's a differently topic entirely, in which case go make that thread instead.

 

[StrymULTRA]

We have 3D characters punching the shit out of each other with 4D power as just one example.

Here is the catch though.

Characters on this wiki can have up to Low 1-A stats regardless of their dimensions because of that being still able to be reached by stacking quantities by multiple infinities (aka still a physical part of their world).

1-A instead is something else entirely which cannot be reached/emulated from lower beings no matter what. 1-A and above just happen to be way different and strictier than Low 1-A and below.

 

[Osemere]

Examples as to what can be exceptions isn't an all encompassing list of every possible reason in existence as to why it might not inherently be the case.

The exception proves the rule in terms of it inherently needing some metaphysical form of operation for physical objects to have some relationship to 1-A potency; the example used was just one way of qualifying for that operation (or aspect). I went so far to say that there isn’t any metaphysical aspect of Cap’s shield at all, any possible form of that operation which could qualify (even beyond that example) is inapplicable.

We don’t need to do semantic games here of trying to recover what was implied by “such as” statements, where the recovery is attempting to be as large as possible to save things which are explicitly against the accepted standards, because we literally have the thread where these revisions were applied right here. Ultima, the admin who wrote that part of the FAQ, goes against any other conception completely:

The thing with "infinite power" ranging from High 3-A to Low 1-A is that, for all those tiers, we still see some continuity between them. We assume some notion of "energy" or "force" that makes sense to conceive as a extrapolation of lower tiers, so that "Punching with High 1-B force" actually makes at least prima facie sense. 1-A is totally disconnected from this and its power can't really be registered as "force" by lower things. Getting hit by a 1-A would be less getting struck by something that's really hard and more something like this scene from Umineko.

A lower reality thing getting "amped" to 1-A AP levels would, I guess, be something that's able to do the feat depicted in the above video "from inside" their own lower plane, but this wouldn't really be an amp to its physical force, since that'd basically imply that the higher world and the lower worlds have a continuous notion of "force" allowing the latter to be expanded into the former. Would basically look like Durability Negation to anything getting attacked by it.

And likewise a lower reality thing getting endowed with 1-A durability would basically look (Would be, in fact) less like durability and more like Invulnerability, since it wouldn't be an amp to its material toughness either.

 

[Chariot190]

Here is the catch though.

Characters on this wiki can have up to Low 1-A stats regardless of their dimensions because of that being still able to be reached by stacking quantities by multiple infinities (aka still a physical part of their world).

1-A instead is something else entirely which cannot be reached/emulated from lower beings no matter what. 1-A and above just happen to be way different and strictier than Low 1-A and below.

I ain't the person arguing otherwise, but if the argument is just lol gap, then it's inefficient if there's legitimate consistent 1-A feats and scaling to it.
The fact that again, this funny shield apparently has direct backing by a 1-A entity for the sole sake of invulnerability would just define exacerbate that no?
It isn't like the shield is outputting that power, it's simply made impervious though said aspect.

The problem isn't with the shield, it's with the 1-A if it really needs to be argued that despite being blessed basically, it can't be protected to an equivalent degree.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The fact that again, this funny shield apparently has direct backing by a 1-A entity for the sole sake of invulnerability would just define exacerbate that no?
It isn't like the shield is outputting that power, it's simply made impervious though said aspect.

Tbf the only method that you can use to make the shield 1-A is not by using scaling, but by arguing that it has some kind of "protection" or blessing from a 1-A being. An example is you being a programmer, and the universe below you just your game. If you code a character/object to be completely invulnerable, then their durability would be 1-A because of them being protected from a 1-A source. However, they'd not be because they're physically that durable, but because they're being protected from an external source to be immune to physical damage of whatever degree, while physically they didn't truly grow in durability.

I know it's a weird technicality, but it works like that here rn.

 

[Chariot190]

The exception proves the rule in terms of it inherently needing some metaphysical form of operation for physical objects to have some relationship to 1-A durability or potency however, the example was just one way of qualifying for that operation (or aspect).

Based on what? Where does it say need? Where does it say if not this specific instance anything else is impossible?

I went so far to say that there isn’t any metaphysical aspect of Cap’s shield at all, any possible form of that operation which could qualify (even beyond that example) is inapplicable.

And yet gave an example did you not? How is Odin slop not altering it at any metaphysical level?

You're assuming that. If it's 1-A stats come from this 1-A empowered source, why wouldn't that be changing it? Like do they say that, or are you merely presuming?

We don’t need to do semantic games here of trying to recover what was implied by “such as” statements, where the recovery is attempted to be as large as possible to save things which are explicitly against the accepted standards, because we literally have the thread where these revisions were applied right here. Ultima, the admin who wrote that part of the FAQ, goes against any other conception completely:

Yep, and? Semantics matter, given that's literally what you're arguing.
The accepted standards, what is actually written, and what you're claiming is an absolute rigid rule, are not the same. If you want to use that as a strict argument, go get it changed. The worst part of this is though even in that thread it isn't framed as an end all be all either way.

As said, your CRT isn't even about if the shield scales, it's about if 1-A is a thing at all, go do that instead.

 

[Osemere]

Based on what? Where does it say need? Where does it say if not this specific instance anything else is impossible?

And yet gave an example did you not? How is Odin slop not altering it at any metaphysical level?

You're assuming that. If it's 1-A stats come from this 1-A empowered source, why wouldn't that be changing it? Like do they say that, or are you merely presuming?


Yep, and? Semantics matter, given that's literally what you're arguing.
The accepted standards, what is actually written, and what you're claiming is an absolute rigid rule, are not the same. If you want to use that as a strict argument, go get it changed. The worst part of this is though even in that thread it isn't framed as an end all be all either way.

As said, your CRT isn't even about if the shield scales, it's about if 1-A is a thing at all, go do that instead.

Besides all this (I already attempted to answer some of your questions re Uru in the OP, and I admit that the example I used wasn’t “impossible” to be otherwise), what exactly do you think I need to get changed for this CRT to apply to the standards I’m attempting to cite? Do you think I misquoted/misunderstood the FAQ? And if so, why?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Besides all this (I already attempted to answer some of your questions re Uru in the OP, and I admit that the example I used wasn’t “impossible” to be otherwise), what exactly do you think I need to get changed for this CRT to apply to the standards I’m attempting to cite? Do you think I misquoted/misunderstood the FAQ? And if so, why?

I think he's arguing that it's still being directly empowered by a 1-A entity (Odin) by non-physical means, so it's still ok to make 1-A.

 

[Chariot190]

Besides all this (I already attempted to answer some of your questions re Uru in the OP),

I seen, but I'm not seeing why it wouldn't apply.
They don't say at any point it isn't protected or enhanced by it, I mean it'd literally have to be if it's being amped by this already inherently metaphysical metal. You're just assuming it was just a stat upgrade but if said metal in and of itself is already like that, then be proxy....

what exactly do you think I need to get changed for this CRT to apply to the standards I’m attempting to cite? Do you think I misquoted/misunderstood the FAQ? And if so, why?

You need to 1. Get Marvel downgraded from 1-A, or at least anything it scales to. 2. Do the same for Uru. (Tho these overlap).

You're not even arguing the shield doesn't scale, the shield DOES scale. Your entire problem is basically if these OTHER things are 1-A, not if the shield scales to them. Your OP premise is fundamentally not what you're actually arguing.

 

[Emerald]

I'm completely clueless in regards to comics and stuff but

After Cul Borson broke it, Tony Stark had it repaired and enhanced with Uru metal, making it even more durable. In this new form, it blocked a strike from Thor with the Odinforce and withstood an attack from a Celestial.

The fact Tony repaired it shouldn't be enough to support the notion of it being 1-A, considering he can make Outerverse level tech (Phoenix Buster) ?

 

[Osemere]

I think he's arguing that it's still being directly empowered by a 1-A entity (Odin) by non-physical means, so it's still ok to make 1-A.

I’m referring to the “if you want to use that as a strict argument, go get it changed” part, I’m aware of the Odin thing.

I seen, but I'm not seeing why it wouldn't apply.
They don't say at any point it isn't protected or enhanced by it, I mean it'd literally have to be if it's being amped by this already inherently metaphysical metal. You're just assuming it was just a stat upgrade but if said metal in and of itself is already like that, then be proxy....

To be more clear, I explicitly cited the part of the FAQ which said that a statistical upgrade without any change of the essential framework of a given object is disqualified, and that’s exactly what Cap’s shield is an example of; the way the burden of proof works is that there needs to be evidence of a metaphysical aspect of the shield which explicitly locks the shield at a 1-A level through that aspect and emanates downwards, as just assuming there is one since it was reforged by Asgardian blacksmiths doesn’t have any evidence behind it. This is all besides the fact that it’s implied that the Uru infusion with the already existing fragments of the shield was done to make the shield physically tougher, and the shield post-2011 is obviously still a 3-D object and derives its strength from its material composition. And Uru, again, has instances of being manipulated by quantitative processes, the Asgardian blacksmiths would be rated L1-C here.

As for the other things, I already said that it’s up to staff discretion for its implications to Marvel as a whole. I don’t have any problem with the justifications for 1-A Marvel cosmology at all, it’s just that this shield can’t be 1-A due to the current standards for indexing.

 

[Chariot190]

I’m referring to the “if you want to use that as a strict argument, go get it changed” part, I’m aware of the Odin thing.

The actual Q&A? What's there not to get.

To be more clear, I explicitly cited the part of the FAQ which said that a statistical upgrade without any change of the essential framework of a given object is disqualified, and that’s exactly what Cap’s shield is an example of; the way the burden of proof works is that there needs to be evidence of a metaphysical aspect of the shield which explicitly locks the shield at a 1-A level through that aspect and emanates downwards, as just assuming there is one since it was reforged by Asgardian blacksmiths doesn’t have any evidence behind it.

Uru metal is also accepted at 1-A. If the shield is empowered by this inherently magic metal that we also list as 1-A. Damn right it isn't just a physical change.

The proof is what they used to empower it to begin with, the burden is to prove actually nah it was only a statistical molecular change given we know Uru isn't quite that simple.

This is all besides the fact that it’s implied that the Uru infusion with the already existing fragments of the shield was done to make the shield physically tougher,

I mean, yeah, so? It being made tougher (also implied? Are you meaning to tell me you're arguing based on assumptions?), is fine? Why wouldn't it be made tougher if the funny 1-A magic material was shoved in it.

and the shield post-2011 is obviously still a 3-D object and derives its strength from its material composition.

Of which that composition includes literal 1-A magic now.

And Uru, again, has instances of being manipulated by quantitative processes, the Asgardian blacksmiths would be rated L1-C here.

There's a pretty huge thing you seem to be ignoring.
In that Uru is literally magic, and magic actively effects how strong it is.

Your argument is that the changes were strictly physical on a 3D scale, yet Uru being involved directly ads a non-physical element to it. Uru is a metal which directly makes use of magic, with said magic enabling and even bolstering its durability through non-physical means.

If his shield scaling to is due to this metal, that as one of it's main gimmicks, is that variance of stats due to an abstract intangible force, which is ALSO 1-A, you kinda shot yourself in the foot. If it was any other material maybe, but Uru? The thing that makes use of the 1-A powersystem that is, by your own definition, metaphysical, being a deciding factor?

And yes 1-A, we also accept magic as 1-A in source at its best, you can gleam as much from multiple profiles.

As for the other things, I already said that it’s up to staff discretion for its implications to Marvel as a whole. I don’t have any problem with the justifications for 1-A Marvel cosmology at all, it’s just that this shield can’t be 1-A due to the current standards for indexing.

The current standard, again, is more of a generality. Secondly, your whole argument hinges on a "this is strictly a 3D change", yet we're discussing a change that involves a material that very much so utilizes a nonphysical abstract source to protect itself.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm completely clueless in regards to comics and stuff but

The fact Tony repaired it shouldn't be enough to support the notion of it being 1-A, considering he can make Outerverse level tech (Phoenix Buster) ?

Yeah, this exactly I was actually about to bring this up.

 

[Arceus0x]

Here is the catch though.

Characters on this wiki can have up to Low 1-A stats regardless of their dimensions because of that being still able to be reached by stacking quantities by multiple infinities (aka still a physical part of their world).

1-A instead is something else entirely which cannot be reached/emulated from lower beings no matter what. 1-A and above just happen to be way different and strictier than Low 1-A and below.

Pretty sure there was a staff thread exactly about that though and it seems they're fine with it. Idk where exactly but there aren't that many staff discussions to search through so-

 

[Arceus0x]

Can 3-D characters have 1-A physicals?

So, as we all know, the Tiering System is divided into two directions of power: Quantitative and qualitative. When we say the difference between X and Y is "quantitative," we mean exactly what's on the tin: It has to do with quantity. Some numerical determination keeping them apart. So the...

vsbattles.com

 

[Osemere]

Before I respond I should note that you are ignoring the status of the shield pre-2011, so would you accept that it specifically can’t be 1-A for the reasons I listed in the OP? Or would you also dispute that, and wish to give some justifications for why you think it should still be 1-A?

The actual Q&A? What's there not to get.

Are you saying I misunderstood the FAQ? If you are, what have I misunderstood about it specifically, and what should I change if I need to get this revision to pass under its merits?

Uru metal is also accepted at 1-A. If the shield is empowered by this inherently magic metal that we also list as 1-A. Damn right it isn't just a physical change.

I’m aware that it’s accepted as 1-A here, as it’s part of a 1-A shield specifically. This point is specifically missing the entire point of what a downgrade is, and as already mentioned, Uru could be physically affected by beings rated on this wiki as L1-C. The only way that Uru can be 1-A is through it acting as a conduit for metaphysical energy from 1-A realms in Marvel, which other Uru objects like Mjolnir have examples of in magic channeling; Cap’s shield post-2011 has no instances of such channeling. Even accepting that it’s possible for such channeling doesn’t indicate that it’s ever been used as such, and even then that channeling wouldn’t mean anything in terms of durability, because, again, Uru is physically malleable.

The proof is what they used to empower it to begin with, the burden is to prove actually nah it was only a statistical molecular change given we know Uru isn't quite that simple.

The proof that the shield has a metaphysical-aspect from the Uru it was instilled with is… that it was instilled with Uru? Mind you, you’re arguing that Captain America’s shield doesn’t even have a physical durability really, it just has invulnerability from a metaphysical-aspect from outside the multiverse, even though it’s specifically the case that there are pieces of Uru that can be manipulated by non-1-A things, which is why Mjolnir on this wiki has a variable rating. If Uru was automatically 1-A and therefore invincible to everything below it, Thor’s hammer would have never manipulated, Thor in Asgard wouldn’t have been casually capable of carving an Uru rock with his fingers, etc. Your argument implies every piece of Uru ever doesn’t even have physical durability and is just magically invulnerable from metaphysical-aspects not elaborated upon automatically.

I mean, yeah, so? It being made tougher (also implied? Are you meaning to tell me you're arguing based on assumptions?), is fine? Why wouldn't it be made tougher if the funny 1-A magic material was shoved in it.

I’m arguing based on probabilities, but an additional thing is that the Asgardian blacksmiths couldn’t even perfect the shield, they still had impurities and cracks in the shield in trying to merge the Uru with the Vibranium-Adamantium alloy, even though this is impossible anyway, as merging two metals, where one is invulnerable to all quantity due to being metaphysically-empowered, and one isn’t, and creating a fault between the two is another anti-feat. This is along with those blacksmiths just being rando Asgardians.

Of which that composition includes literal 1-A magic now.

No, the composition doesn’t include 1-A magic, because 1-A can’t be within any material composition. You saying this means you actually accept that the physical quantity of Uru in the post-2011 shield alloy is physically 1-A, which undermines the argument.

There's a pretty huge thing you seem to be ignoring.
In that Uru is literally magic, and magic actively effects how strong it is.

Your argument is that the changes were strictly physical on a 3D scale, yet Uru being involved directly ads a non-physical element to it. Uru is a metal which directly makes use of magic, with said magic enabling and even bolstering its durability through non-physical means.

See above. You’re assuming all pieces of Uru are automatically 1-A in terms of invulnerability to things below 1-A even though this is based on nothing and it’s contradicted. The burden of proof is on you to prove that this piece of Uru specifically has 1-A-sourced invulnerability, as we specifically accept Mjolnir having a varies rating due to Thor needing to consciously use it as a conduit for more and more magic.

If his shield scaling to is due to this metal, that as one of it's main gimmicks, is that variance of stats due to an abstract intangible force, which is ALSO 1-A, you kinda shot yourself in the foot. If it was any other material maybe, but Uru? The thing that makes use of the 1-A powersystem that is, by your own definition, metaphysical, being a deciding factor?

So you admit here besides everything else that the pre-2011 shield isn’t 1-A since you specifically qualify Uru as something that would avoid the disqualification? And again, it’s an assumption that all Uru is automatically invulnerably sourced from 1-A entities.

 

[Agnaa]

Only two anti-feats that at the time weren't anti-feats?
Shouldn't there be more if it's legitimately not scaling to the top dogs?

This is an inherent issue that comes up with every time it's on-screen, I wouldn't consider it just two anti-feats, but thousands, which are ultimately rooted in two points of our standards.

As for the first thing, literally opens up with "Broadly:", it's a generalization, a rule of thumb, (and not even actual reasoning, the wiki isn't gospel), exceptions will always exist. If something simply has the feats or scaling, it is what it is, it's only really an issue if the 1-A comes from R>F, which isn't the case here last I checked.

No, it applies to any way of reaching 1-A.

By this logic any dimensional gap is invalidated, yet we as a wiki absolutely do not do this.
We have 3D characters punching the shit out of each other with 4D power as just one example.

We are stricter for 1-A and above due to how large of a jump it is, and how we have it operate on a different scale than dimensional jumps (quantitative rather than qualitative).

You, yourself, pointed out it is empowered by Odin's slop to at least some minor degree, wouldn't the very fact it's infused with what, in this context, would be some abstract 1-A magic implicitly make it so that regardless of its physical make up, the enchanted parts of it still protect it no?
Like you wouldn't say a 1-A can't protect a 9-B right?

You need an actual reason for why this is a legitimate form of protection, or at least a hint at it. We don't just assume that every 1-A can; that's explicitly written into the quoted standards here:

In which case, evidence must be given and weighed up in order to determine whether the empowerment is metaphysical in nature, either by explicit statements, or contextual indications that make such a thing sufficiently probable.

All the same, your CRT is wrong, you're not even arguing if it scales to them, you're arguing that 1-A itself is wrong. That's a differently topic entirely, in which case go make that thread instead.

Not really, the least-supported step should be cut out of the chain in a situation like this, and that sounds like it probably isn't the original 1-A feats, but some part of the scaling.

I'm completely clueless in regards to comics and stuff but

The fact Tony repaired it shouldn't be enough to support the notion of it being 1-A, considering he can make Outerverse level tech (Phoenix Buster) ?

It should be, because beings below 1-A cannot alter 1-A things, unless they do so through 1-A things.

Reforging it with below 1-A tools is an exceptional violation of this.

Maybe this argument would also mean that his tech shouldn't be considered 1-A? If that's the case so be it, make another thread for it or roll it into this one.

The proof is what they used to empower it to begin with, the burden is to prove actually nah it was only a statistical molecular change given we know Uru isn't quite that simple.

No lmao. Metaphysical forces can still provide force to physical objects to strengthen them. "It's magic" is not a good enough implication.

Your argument is that the changes were strictly physical on a 3D scale, yet Uru being involved directly ads a non-physical element to it. Uru is a metal which directly makes use of magic, with said magic enabling and even bolstering its durability through non-physical means.

If his shield scaling to is due to this metal, that as one of it's main gimmicks, is that variance of stats due to an abstract intangible force, which is ALSO 1-A, you kinda shot yourself in the foot. If it was any other material maybe, but Uru? The thing that makes use of the 1-A powersystem that is, by your own definition, metaphysical, being a deciding factor?

The fact that Uru can be moved, alloyed with, and reinforced into objects below 1-A is also a major issue. That should not be possible for 1-A things; they are immutable to things below 1-A, and cannot exist in realms below 1-A (without alteration to make them weaker than 1-A).

Pretty sure there was a staff thread exactly about that though and it seems they're fine with it. Idk where exactly but there aren't that many staff discussions to search through so-

We're not fine with it, the thread you're talking about added the rules text.

 

[Arkenis]

How is this not just the magic in marvel allows uru to be 1-A in some cases if the writers decide it scales to the 1-A characters?

 

[Agnaa]

How is this not just the magic in marvel allows uru to be 1-A in some cases if the writers decide it scales to the 1-A characters?

Got a scan explaining that mechanism?

 

[Osemere]

How is this not just the magic in marvel allows uru to be 1-A in some cases if the writers decide it scales to the 1-A characters?

Again as it’s said in this thread Uru in no case is physically 1-A; Uru can only be 1-A as already accepted through channeling magic (like through Thor becoming “one” with Mjolnir through merging his essence with it) which is why Mjolnir has a variable rating. Assuming every piece of Uru is automatically 1-A (and even 1-A in terms of physical durability) since it could potentially channel 1-A magic is misunderstanding the standards in the former case, and in the latter case nonsense.

 

[Agnaa]

Can 3-D characters have 1-A physicals?

So, as we all know, the Tiering System is divided into two directions of power: Quantitative and qualitative. When we say the difference between X and Y is "quantitative," we mean exactly what's on the tin: It has to do with quantity. Some numerical determination keeping them apart. So the...

vsbattles.com

Also, for context, the idea of this thread came from me seeing Cap's shield 1-A, telling Ultima "that's gotta be wrong, right?" and him agreeing.

I'm surprised it took so long for this thread to come about, I assumed he would've made it by now tbh.

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah, I think this one is pretty blatantly illogical no matter what lens you look at it through.

Uru and Vibranium are physical materials and elements of matter. Mystical or not, they're still made up of the same stuff (atoms, protons, neutrons, etc) as everything else, just in a different orientation. That brings up an issue of quantitatively, since 1-A (qualitative-superiority) isn't able to be reached by any amount, form, or orientation of quantitative stuff.

Thus, for a physical material like Uru to be 1-A, everything that makes it up would, by necessity, have to be 1-A. In the case of Cap's shield, that means all the particles making it up would have to have some kind of 1-A state of existence. And since particles in the universe like quarks, protons, etc aren't even individually different from one another (just aligned in different ways), that would essentially end up back-scaling all matter in Marvel to 1-A through the shield/Uru being that level.

That's basically infinite anti-feats right there. And it obviously doesn't make sense for that to be the case.

The only way for this to make sense would be if Uru somehow has some mystical property where that specific arrangement of matter is granted 1-A invulnerability. Not durability, but invulnerability. Essentially acting as though it has 1-A durability without actually having it. But the idea also sounds nonsensical and it probably is.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Yeah, I think this one is pretty blatantly illogical no matter what lens you look at it through.

Uru and Vibranium are physical materials and elements of matter. Mystical or not, they're still made up of the same stuff (atoms, protons, neutrons, etc) as everything else, just in a different orientation. That brings up an issue of quantitatively, since 1-A (qualitative-superiority) isn't able to be reached by any amount, form, or orientation of quantitative stuff.

Thus, for a physical material like Uru to be 1-A, everything that makes it up would, by necessity, have to be 1-A. In the case of Cap's shield, that means all the particles making it up would have to have some kind of 1-A state of existence. And since particles in the universe like quarks, protons, etc aren't even individually different from one another (just aligned in different ways), that would essentially end up back-scaling all matter in Marvel to 1-A through the shield/Uru being that level.

That's basically infinite anti-feats right there. And it obviously doesn't make sense for that to be the case.

The only way for this to make sense would be if Uru somehow has some mystical property where that specific arrangement of matter is granted 1-A invulnerability. Not durability, but invulnerability. Essentially acting as though it has 1-A durability without actually having it. But the idea also sounds nonsensical and it probably is.

we're finally gonna do the legendary 1-A atoms

 

[Agnaa]

The only way for this to make sense would be if Uru somehow has some mystical property where that specific arrangement of matter is granted 1-A invulnerability. Not durability, but invulnerability. Essentially acting as though it has 1-A durability without actually having it. But the idea also sounds nonsensical and it probably is.

That isn't technically the only way, it can be metaphysically linked/have serious blows redirected to some 1-A shield existing in some higher plane. Maybe there are some other mechanisms fiction can cook up.

But it has to actually be a reason, and one that doesn't involve the object itself being able to withstand more-real forces (or, for AP/SS, being able to dispense more-real forces without channeling them from a 1-A location immediately beforehand).