Before I respond I should note that you are ignoring the status of the shield pre-2011, so would you accept that it specifically can’t be 1-A for the reasons I listed in the OP?
Obviously not because the reason it's 1-A is post 2011? If you wanna downgrade it before 2011, sure, I don't think it has any feats that high iirc, and given its feats come post rebuilding, the former shield has zero reason to scale to it anyhow.
Or would you also dispute that, and wish to give some justifications for why you think it should still be 1-A?
i shouldn't even have to justify anything regarding the shield to begin with given you need to go through at least 4 other things first before even attempting to downgrade this.
Are you saying I misunderstood the FAQ? If you are, what have I misunderstood about it specifically, and what should I change if I need to get this revision to pass under its merits?
I'm saying treating something as a completely rigid rule when the FAQ doesn't say it has to 100% be that way or not at all, is a fundamentally flawed argument.
I’m aware that it’s accepted as 1-A here, as it’s part of a 1-A shield specifically.
In general, the thing is capable of being 1-A regardless of the shield.
To even attempt to downgrade the shield, you need to downgrade other things first. Otherwise we're just arguing maybe's, except one is backed by actual feats.
This point is specifically missing the entire point of what a downgrade is, and as already mentioned, Uru could be physically affected by beings rated on this wiki as L1-C.
Depends on the context, as said magic actively changes how much it can withstand, this is an inherent trait of the material, I guess you could argue it's less about changing the material itself, and more like invulnerability, protection, or whatnot. But we still treat things like forcefields and whatnot as durability on wiki, so eh.
If Stark and smiths both messed with the shield to make it as bullshittingly tough as possible, in which magic that can go up to 1-A was involved due to the very fact Uru was, there's really not an argument to be had if it has the feats. If it lacked feats we wouldn't even be debating this tbh, it'd just be whatever it's shown.
The only way that Uru can be 1-A is through it acting as a conduit for metaphysical energy from 1-A realms in Marvel, which other Uru objects like Mjolnir have examples of in magic channeling; Cap’s shield post-2011 has no instances of such channeling.
That isn't true. "The only way"? Based on what?
Mjolnir itself as you just rightfully pointed out IS an example, and yet that isn't any different from cap's shield in this context. Both were made using funny magic metal with involvement from sources that can reach 1-A. Both can be 1-A if the situation calls for it due to this metaphysical aspect of magic.
You admitting that Uru can, in fact, do that, shuts down a good chunk of the argument, we know for a fact the introduction of Uru isn't just a physical change due to how it works and what you conceded is possible with it.
Even accepting that it’s possible for such channeling doesn’t indicate that it’s ever been used as such, and even then that channeling wouldn’t mean anything in terms of durability, because, again, Uru is physically malleable.
If you accept it's possible then you accept that the crux of your argument isn't objectively true, in that the shield's boost is strictly due to a 3D shift in composition, metaphysical aspects and magic are in fact involved here.
It's physically malleable in its most basic state sure, bu why are we assuming that they just used raw Uru? It wouldn't have even made it stronger if that was the case, its basic material is stronger than Uru without magic.
If they went out of their way to buff Cap's shield, using a funny magic metal, that can and has hit 1-A, due to the existence of a 1-A metaphysical force directly empowering, blessing, etc said material, your argument simply doesn't work.
If the shield has feats that says it's that high, and Uru can without issue be scaled that high due to magic, and a implemented this shit into it to make it basically indestructible, what's actually the problem?
The proof that the shield has a metaphysical-aspect from the Uru it was instilled with is… that it was instilled with Uru?
Coupled with 1-A feats, I would assume so.
Obviously by itself we'd never assume it's 1-A, but we would go with whatever it's shown. Whether that's 5-A, 3-C, 2-C, 1-C or whatever. It's simply tied to what feats it has. If it's interacted with 1-A forces, and Uru and magic can go up to 1-A, well idk, I'm not one to just say ignore that.
Mind you, you’re arguing that Captain America’s shield doesn’t even have a physical durability really, it just has invulnerability from a metaphysical-aspect from outside the multiverse, even though it’s specifically the case that there are pieces of Uru that can be manipulated by non-1-A things, which is why Mjolnir on this wiki has a variable rating.
And? None of that actually effects this.
1-A durability due to magic metal is still durability. Why or how a durability rating exists doesn't detract from that.
You literally just proved your whole point wrong, invulnerability from a 1-A metaphysical aspect, isn't a 3D material change by itself.
Pieces of Uru can be manipulated by non-1-A things, that is true, they can also be 1-A due to magic though, there's an external factor here.
Mjolnir having a variable rating doesn't change the fact the shield doesn't (or maybe it does? The specifics of what they did exactly is vague), and currently it's consistently 1-A, and the material it's made from enables such a thing without contradicting the very premise of wiki rules you're using as an argument.
If Uru was automatically 1-A and therefore invincible to everything below it, Thor’s hammer would have never manipulated, Thor in Asgard wouldn’t have been casually capable of carving an Uru rock with his fingers, etc.
And Thor can't do anything to Cap's shield normally.
Why are we assuming that Uru, that actively made the shield stronger than ever, was basic non-infused Uru?
It can't be, you yourself just gave an example as to why it can't be. Uru at its default is useless compared to adamantium or vibranium, yet Thor at his peak, literal infinites above the Thor you just mentioned, can't even dent Cap's uru shield?
Obviously, the Uru in question isn't in its malleable state, there's an external factor, and the only external factor we know is that it can be blessed and empowered by magic to directly effect its defenses.
And I never said it was automatically 1-A. But the fact it can be? Without contradicting "wiki rules"? Means your argument no longer holds up, if Cap's shield has the feats post-infusion, we wouldn't assume by default the Uru is 1-A that was used, but this isn't assuming by default, because he has feats. At that point it just scales.
Your argument implies every piece of Uru ever doesn’t even have physical durability and is just magically invulnerable from metaphysical-aspects not elaborated upon automatically.
Do not strawman me. I never once said Uru is always that, but the fact it can be, and the fact it can be due to this non-physical aspect, and this aspect can be 1-A, and Cap's shield in question was infused with it, and it's blatantly not base Uru, AND the fact he literally has feats on that level with it.
Means your entire argument is just "I don't think it should be", because of why? They don't say it flatout that "yes, we used 1-A levels of magic here"? They don't need to anymore, they show it, and the only reason that wouldn't work, is no longer an issue because magic is involved.
I’m not arguing based on probabilities, but an additional thing is that the Asgardian blacksmiths couldn’t even perfect the shield, they still had impurities and cracks in the shield in trying to merge the Uru with the Vibranium-Adamantium alloy, even though this is impossible anyway (merging two metals, where one is invulnerable to all quantity due to being metaphysically-empowered, and one isn’t, and creating a fault between the two) is another anti-feat, along with those blacksmiths just being rando Asgardians.
Your entire argument is a probability now. There is no objective stance that absolutely confirms it as an impossibility.
You're arguing that it
can't be that strong.
To that I say, why?
Is there anything preventing Uru from being 1-A by wiki standards? No due to magic in Marvel.
Is there anything saying Cap's Uru couldn't be 1-A? No, so no cap or anti-statement.
Does Uru not always being 1-A prevent Cap's from being 1-A? No, it's case by case.
Does Uru being involved mean that Cap's shield's defenses is no longer bound to the whole 3D thing? Yes, as Uru itself isn't.
Does Uru and its enhancements involve a metaphysical force? Yes, magic is a non-physical abstract force from some weird higher plane or whatever, magic in Marvel is kinda funky.
At that point it's just a matter of what it's shown to do, and if it's shown consistently 1-A, there is no problem. If it has anti-feats or statements below that tho, then that's something else entirely, like a 2-C blast threatening it would be very problematic and gut any potential scaling.
Also the smiths don't matter as much given Stark happened.
No, the composition doesn’t include 1-A magic, because 1-A can’t be within any material composition. You saying this means you actually accept that the physical quantity of Uru in the post-2011 shield alloy is physically 1-A, which undermines the argument.
This entire sentence isn't an argument.
1-A can be within a material composition if said 1-A thing is an abstract metaphysical force. Which, is what magic is in the context of Marvel.
The composition not including 1-A magic is neither stated nor denied in context.
That isn't an argument, we just go by the feats at that point as there's no proof either or.
See above. You’re assuming all pieces of Uru are automatically 1-A in terms of invulnerability to things below 1-A even though this is based on nothing and it’s contradicted.
I'm actively not assuming anything.
I'm going strictly off the feats and what we know was involved.
It's you who's assuming as we know Uru can be 1-A, this isn't up for debate. We know it can be 1-A due to metaphysical aspects, undermining you. We know Stark gets involved so there goes any argument of "they shouldn't have been able to do that" whether it's through resources, intellect, or whatever.
If the Uru in question is non-standard, we know Uru can be that strong, and the Uru in question is shown to be that strong, it is what it is.
To go against that would be to assume things that are never stated or shown, and use these assumptions as contradictions, but at that point it's just headcanon, you're not going off what we see or what we know is possible, you're just drawing a conclusion beforehand, and saying because that is true, this can't be true, even though we see the exact opposite. It'd be like if I ACTUALLY said Uru was always 1-A, and thus Cap's shield should be able to withstand blows of that force, but i's actual best feat was like 2-C, we'd never accept that, it's just conjecture as they never said as much.
The burden of proof is on you to prove that this piece of Uru specifically has 1-A-sourced invulnerability,
The fact it has 1-A feats is unironically, kind of proves itself no?
Uru is case by case, it's however strong the feats show it is, because as you said, it's variable and why it's variable, adheres to standards.
The fact it's variable doesn't detract from 1-A
potential though, because the reason it can be 1-A, is due to non-physical aspects.
as we specifically accept Mjolnir having a varies rating due to Thor needing to consciously use it as a conduit for more and more magic.
Uru can be infused with magic long term, really not an issue. Just depends on how they went about it, which we don't see so we can't say but the fact it's doable and the fact it has feats ehhhh.
So you admit here besides everything else that the pre-2011 shield isn’t 1-A since you specifically qualify Uru as something that would avoid the disqualification? And again, it’s an assumption that Uru is all automatically invulnerable sourced from 1-A entities.
Where in my post did I utter the word
all Uru? At any point?
And don't move the goalposts.
Wiki standards? Magic kind of invalidates that.
Cap's shield literally can't be that high? Uru and magic makes it possible so saying it's impossible isn't factually incorrect.
And that's it, that's your whole argument. You'd need to downgrade magic, uru's peak, the characters that it's being scaled toward, or find a statement after the infusion that explicitly limits it, because otherwise we're just arguing maybe's and if's.
This is an inherent issue that comes up with every time it's on-screen, I wouldn't consider it just two anti-feats, but thousands, which are ultimately rooted in two points of our standards.
Literally two is not thousands. Two that predate the feats and change in question mind you, are not thousands.
No, it applies to any way of reaching 1-A.
That isn't what it says, or at the very least linguistically it isn't as rigid as you're implying.
We are stricter for 1-A and above due to how large of a jump it is, and how we have it operate on a different scale than dimensional jumps (quantitative rather than qualitative).
We really shouldn't be in that mindset.
Whether it's a jump from 10-A to 9-B or 2-C to 1-A, our goal should be accuracy whether the jump is big or small.
You need an actual reason for why this is a legitimate form of protection, or at least a hint at it. We don't just assume that every 1-A can; that's explicitly written into the quoted
standards here:
I'd presume because that be how magic do sometimes. Obviously I'm not the best source on magic in Marvel, but we do got a magic profile for it with a good chunk of scans and yap.
Not really, the least-supported step should be cut out of the chain in a situation like this, and that sounds like it probably isn't the original 1-A feats, but some part of the scaling.
Yes really. If the thing is blatantly shown multiple times after a certain point to be able to withstand such a thing. It's consistent.
If the argument is it's 3D so these things can't be 1-A, which is very much what's being argued at this point, well that isn't the shield's problem, it's the 1-A's problem.
There comes a point when if something keeps happening, that ignoring or handwaving it just turns into ignorance. If the shield doing so is such a hassle, it's them that needs to be looked at, not the shield that has never been damaged by anything ever past that point including said 1-A rated things.
Now before anyone goes "ok then we can downgrade them", be my guest, I don't actually care what they're at, I just find it mind boggling that something with direct scaling to a thing is being said to not scale to said thing.
It should be, because beings below 1-A cannot alter 1-A things, unless they do so through 1-A things.
Magic tho.
No lmao. Metaphysical forces can still provide force to physical objects to strengthen them. "It's magic" is not a good enough implication.
Yes lmao.
If the magic in question is this abstract metaphysical force that can do whatever it wants. And often does. Why are you assuming it's done in that exact way?
Like right there, "implication"?
The fact that Uru can be moved, alloyed with, and reinforced into objects below 1-A is also a major issue. That should not be possible for 1-A things; they are immutable to things below 1-A, and cannot exist in realms below 1-A (without alteration to make them weaker than 1-A).
I never said Uru by its lonesome was 1-A? Pretty clearly I was referring to magic, it's just Uru and magic are basically always connected, albeit to widely varying degrees. Magic can be 1-A. If the shield is infused with this substance that is capable of being 1-A, and the shield shows 1-A feats, and it scales to legitimate 1-A sources, and this source is capable of blessing or bestowing or even rewriting reality for 1-A defenses, through uh, thing, there shouldn't be an issue no? The problem is "Shield 3D, so it CAN'T scale to 1-A", yes? But the existence of Marvel's magic, which Uru makes use of, invalidates that. The whole "this isn't ok, it can't be" is no longer inherently true, sure it's vague on how or what they did exactly, but the basic facts tells us there was at least some involvement, from there I'd say it's whatever is consistently shown with it as otherwise we're just guessing both ways.
Though, I do actually like your interpretation quite a bit, in that whole role thing. Like obviously Cap's shield is like some multiversal symbol of protection and with external factors magnifying it, it probably is invulnerable, but if someone could alter or change that, it might have to rely on just itself?
(Not to mention that the “1-A invulnerability” mentioned here is basically incompatible with how the shield is actually shown and used. It’s durable because it’s made of a strong metal; saying “actually it’s not physically durable it’s invincible on a plot-level passively 100% of the time since it’s made out of Viking magic-metal which was never mentioned again besides this one storyline” shouldn’t be taken seriously).
Why do they need to say it every time? It's just an innate fact about it now. It probably is physically durable, but you're arguing 1-A is impossible for it based on physicality. Yet, it isn't impossible, as both magic and stark were involved to some unknown degree. Saying it was a little, or infinite amounts is conjecture, but the fact it was involved? Means stating it wasn't is simply headcanon.
i dont wanna argue this tho i wanna play mokey game....i dont even like cap....
