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Tolkien Tier High 1-A+ and 0 Proposal

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Tyranno223 said:
Well...

"God cannot be limited (even by his own Foundations)... and may use any channel for His grace. " - Letter 250

Basically covers the same ground.
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HUGE Necro but:

Hold up. Wait a minute. I honestly didn't even notice the sheer implications of this until now. That is an utterly insane statement. We should argue this should go on Eru's profile.
 
@Tyranno223

Are you willing to provide an explanation post that explains what our staff members currently need to evaluate here please? 🙏
 
Tyranno223 said:
I don't entirely trust myself to represent the entire argument, so I'll go over the final few messages + some messages I sent to Ultima.

There was a lot of other arguments, but this exchange was when Ultima left his comment on neutrality after going through the positions.

Ultima's last message on the topic was here.

When we last left, he was neutral on High 1-A+ because of the argument that the Secondary/Primary reality distinction might have collapsed + because of a seemingly weak link between the Ainur and the Authors. If a link between the authors and Ainur is closed, then presumably he would have be fine with the rating.


Initial message from Elbekarym Ultima was responding to:
The point is that Tolkien differentiates between an actualized and a non-actualized (by God) secondary world. I'm arguing that actualized worlds are ontologically similar to primary creation (as they are, in fact, primarily created). In other words:

1 - Ea has an actual existence (in-universe). Sub-creations per se do not (as long as they are not actualized by God).
2 - The omnipotence of the author is simply to be able to imagine anything. But imagining is not doing.
3 - The author's transcendence over his fiction is effective only as long as the latter is fiction.
4 - If tomorrow God (the real one) decides to actualize Tolkien's universe, Tolkien will lose his creative power over his universe, since it is no longer fictional.
5 - The Valars have a certain creative power (to the extent of their intellect) as long as Ea does not exist. Once it does, they no longer have it. They don't transcend Ea, whether inside or outside, precisely because Ea is then no longer a fiction.
(I say “certain” because Eru takes an active part in creation: he proposes themes, interrupts when things go wrong, etc. The Valar are not fancy free).

Ultima
"This is a pretty interesting argument. Basically arguing that, when Eä exists as only the Music of the Ainur, it isn't real at all, and it only becomes real (As in, the actual Eä, the universe) when Eru endows it with the Flame But when Eä becomes real, is precisely when it comes to be on the same level as the Ainur, based on this:

"Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'."
– Letter 200

It does, at prima facie, seem to saying that the Ainur live in the secondary reality, Eru in the primary, and Eä is a story/vision that is given secondary reality on par with the Ainur's by the Flame Imperishable. But Tyranno's already pointed out that the Ainur being of the primary reality is already accepted, and they are stated to be from "the primary creation," so I'll leave that alone. It's not a topic of discussion for this thread.

So: Let's grant that the Ainur exist in the primary reality, and that when the Ainulindale is given existence by Eru, it becomes a secondary reality relative to themselves. Looking at it now, I think a problem for them being High 1-A+ would come into play here: It's been clarified that, as far as can be ascertained, knowledge is the definer of power for the Ainur. Yet, if their knowledge is their power at that level, them being High 1-A+ would pretty much necessitate that their knowledge exhausts everything that Eru can create, which doesn't seem correct.

For that matter, the Star Maker was brought up as an example of a character who has the raw capacity but not the knowledge to make all possible worlds, but that case is different precisely because, in there, power and knowledge are distinct. Here, they're being argued to be identical. So there's not much of a comparison.

Otherwise: The reason for why the statement about writers having no limits save the laws of contradiction is applied to the Ainur is that the Ainur are from "The Primary Reality," which is also what Tolkien terms the real world in which writers like himself live. Now, Tolkien and etc. don't actually exist in the Legendarium, so the argument seems to be moreso that Tolkien considers the Ainur to be functionally of the same nature as writers are in his understanding of the world, and as such the statements about the latter are applicable to the former.

Compounded with the issue of the Ainur's knowledge, I'm admittedly not as sold on this line of reasoning. Mostly because it's missing a link: There is a gap between "The Ainur live in a primary reality to which Eä is secondaries" and "Therefore they have the same abilities as writers." This gap as it stands seems to be filled with "Tolkien uses the term "primary reality" to talk about both where the Ainur are from and the real world," but I do struggle to see how that's adequate justification at all. In Eru's case, at least it's talking about the exact same thing (i.e. God considered as the wellspring of all possible stories and worlds), which isn't the case with the Ainur/Writers comparison."

Because the thread was getting quite cluttered and a move to DMs was suggested, I sent Ultima a response to both the R>F matter, but the link between the Ainur and the authors was something I addressed both there and here.

My response was mainly to the point that knowledge = power persay, which I admittedly worded wrong in my previous post. Knowledge isn't = power persay, so much as it limits imagination.


Response: Regarding the link between the Ainur and the Authors.

"Letter 153 is the main connecting thread I have for the Ainur and the writers. This is because the type of sub-creation used by both is not differentiated despite Tolkien making sure to clarify when he is referring to another type of subcreation (for example, purely artistic).

"To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (not the same as 'subcreation' as a term in criticism of art, though I tried to show allegorically how that might come to be taken up into Creation in some plane in my 'purgatorial' story Leaf by Niggle (Dublin Review 1945)) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'subcreative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence– even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)"

So the two groups share the same type of subcreation, and the Ainur are described as the "highest created beings" (created beings being another instance of their existence as Primary things as they are not sub-created beings) and possessing "special" subcreative power in comparison to other beings. This would of course include the Sub-creators of the Primary Reality.

The chief hallmark here is that:

  1. The Ainur's role as "special" sub-creators is that, unlike say writers, they are given the gift of "certainty" and this is not a form of sub-creation that is distinguished from Tolkien's kind, with Tolkien using artistic sub-creation as an example of when he refers to a different kind from that of literal creation.
  2. As such, they are considered beings who have sub-creative gifts of "certainty" from God and are described as possessing a similar sort of sub-creative power as Tolkien, with Tolkien clarifying when he discusses a different type of sub-creation.
  3. As their only difference to writers is that very certainty, they should be comparable as sub-creators.
  • NOTE: As previously said in this conversation, "highest created beings" doesn't mean the Ainur are necessarily somehow "more powerful" as subcreators, the main difference being the Ainur gain certainty when they create.
Now, for knowledge, while it is a "limit" of sorts to the Ainur, I do not consider it a limit on capability so much as a limit on imagination. For example, when Morgoth's song overcomes the music of other Ainur, none are harmed, not even those nearest to him. Furthermore, all the actual capabilities of the Valar appear equal at this stage, as any could have gone the route of Melkor if they had decided to repute Eru's lessons and strike out on their own.
  • "Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Two: Body, Mind and Spirit, VII: Mind-Pictures

It stands that the Ainur do not so much differ in literal power so much as knowledge at this stage, with said knowledge being the grounds upon which they are compared.

Of course, this lack of knowledge isn't restricting beyond say their creativity, they can go beyond their given roles due to their free-wills afterall. Therefore, there isn't a restriction on their ability to influence/create all possible words (having the capacity even if not the knowledge seems acceptable judging by profiles like The Star-Maker).
  • "...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
  • "In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken." - Letter 212
Moreover, there isn't a true "power" difference in the "punch harder" way. For example, even at point-blank (relatively speaking on such a higher scale), none of the "lesser" Ainur were harmed by Melkor.
  • "But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery..." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
By this I was somewhat trying to differentiate the idea of literal power from knowledge. Ainur at this stage of their existence do not have a outright definition to their "might" beyond knowledge, yes. Indeed, this is why Manwë is mightier than say some Maiar.

"Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds)." - Letter 200. - emphasis on fairly, Manwë comes as close as possible, no more than that.

But this doesn't seem to be power in the sense of "Goku's Kamehameha beats Vegeta's Galick Gun". Ainur at this stage cannot harm one another and can only overcome one another via "knowledge". Melkor overcame lesser Ainur with his discordant music, but no harm was done upon those who were against him despite the great power of the Musics.

Moreover, while knowledge limits what they can "create", it is only because they obey Eru's laws. When Melkor decided to become disobedient, he made something he was not taught, the discourse of Evil. This is in contrast to Manwë who naturally would never go beyond them.
"...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA

Therefore in this sense, knowledge can be used to say X Ainu is "mightier" as they possess more ability to create, but only because they obey Eru. Once Eru is disobeyed, Ainur can go beyond their knowledge and make whatever they imagine, just like a writer. It is essentially the limits of what they can imagine not output.

It's essentially that the Ainur are assistants to the author until one goes off on their own to become their own author... well not really as Eru cannot be equaled, but there you go.

Regarding High 1-A+, Letter 153, all writers create as per the “channels” provided by God, they can only operate as per what the Creator has already used, but within this framework they are utterly unbound except for the laws of contradiction. They cannot perform contradictory actions (as a form of logical omnipotence on a lower scale)

Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds,

but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is

required – Letter 153

Therefore, I have argued that there is no distinction between the type of sub-creators that authors and the Ainur are, with it being in the same letter that the two are equated and the Ainur given the title of the "highest created beings." Moreover, I have argued that knowledge is not a issue here, just as it is not for the Star-Maker (hence my usage of the comparison) as the limiting factor is truly the extent of an Ainu's knowledge, not power. They cannot even harm each other as they are equal in power from all appearances, being unable to even harm each other.



I'll note that I and Elbekarym had a few more exchanges after Ultima's response (not including my messages to Ultima in response to his High 1-A+ queries) but as neither of us got a response, I'll leave it with just this exchange. It was also just a lot of the same arguments presented prior to Ultima's response being repeated in a back and forth.

Moreover, at this point I'm pretty open to a compromise on "at least 1-A, possibly/likely/at most/etc High 1-A+".


Response: Regarding the R>F
"Now regarding the suggestion that the Ainur are of a "secondary quality" rather than a primary, I have stated this is a matter for another thread, but I really have to emphasise that it isn't a good suggestion.

Now, I will note that the grammar of Letter 200
"Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'."

Can be used to argue that the Ainur are from the secondary reality, but it can equally mean.
  1. Eru gave the the Music existence as the secondary reality.
  2. This reality is subordinate to Eru's reality
  3. We call Eru's creality the primary reality
  4. It is the same plane with the Ainur.
And of course it's a single line vs multiple that imply or assert Ainur as beings of the primary reality. We know they are from the primary reality as they are referred to literally be from it

"There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers. These take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered into the world." - Letter 181

"So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'subcreative' powers to certain of His highest created beings..." - Letter 153 (they are created beings, not subcreated beings like elves or humans of the Legendarium as noted below in another extract from Letter 153. Also, they are feigned angels of the real world, feigned because Tolkien can't be certain this is what "real" angels are like, but they are still meant to occupy that role)

"The Valar or 'powers, rulers' were the first 'creation': rational spirits or minds without incarnation, created before the physical world. (Strictly these spirits were called Ainur, the Valar being only those from among them who entered the world after its making, and the name is properly applied only to the great among them, who take the imaginative but not the theological place of 'gods'.) The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion." - Letter 212 (again, created beings and made before the world)

Of course there is also simply the matter of Tolkien's use of "language". When referring to a primary/secondary division, he has made it clear that he refers to the difference between realiy and fiction multiple times

"Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world." and "...satisfactions of plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is indeed usually at strife. This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it." and "* It is, I suppose, fundamentally concerned with the problem of the relation of An (and Sub-creation) and Primary Reality"- Letter 131

"But I do not see how even in the Primary World any theologian or philosopher, unless very much better informed about the relation of spirit and body than I believe anyone to be, could deny the possibility of re-incarnation as a mode of existence, prescribed for certain kinds of rational incarnate creatures." and "Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World"- Letter 153 (he discusses real theologians or philosophers here afterall)

Overall, it's just silly to attempt to bring the Ainur before their qualitative descent to an equal reality to the Legendarium. They are too distinguished and outright stated to be primary existences.

The crux is that the Ainur have one possible statement of being brought to an equal level as the narrative of the Legendarium, and even then, it can be interpreted in multiple ways. Multiple other statements emphasise they are from the "real" world compared to the Legendarium's setting.
NOTE: R>F isn't really the topic of discussion here, this is just in case staff gets curious on that topic too.
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@Colonel_Krukov @DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy @Mr. Bambu @EliminatorVenom @Newendigo @Legion350 @InfiniteSped @GojiBoyForever @SheevShezarrine @LegendariumOfLies @Ser_Hakim_Dayne

What do you all think about this? 🙏
 
Neutral on High 1-A, though 1-A is very much cut and dry. Debating the latter is basically a formality, as it essentially just boils down to double-checking the evidence presented during the Low 1-C upgrade. Honestly kinda surprised that the Low 1-Cs of the verse haven't made the transition to 1-A yet
 
Okay, and which staff members here already accept that rating, and which ones do I need to ping for confirmations? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Okay, and which staff members here already accept that rating, and which ones do I need to ping for confirmations? 🙏
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Ultima originally accepted the High 1-A+ rating but then went neutral in their last post. I did make some responses to their reasons, as compiled here, but from what I heard they're busy for now (tbf, as am I). They haven't commented on the "possibly" rating.

DDM and you previously agreed with Ultima's rating so things are currently left neutral.

I'm not sure who else is available as an alternative to Ultima tbh.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Very much 1-A. High 1-A+ boils down to semantics, but I can see the case for it. @Tyranno223 made enough sufficient points regarding the matter.
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Antvasima said:
So "1-A, possibly High 1-A+" or just "1-A"? 🙏
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Tyranno223 said:
"1-A, possibly High 1-A+" is the approach I currently advocate.
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Antvasima said:
Okay, and which staff members here already accept that rating, and which ones do I need to ping for confirmations? 🙏
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Tyranno223 said:
Ultima originally accepted the High 1-A+ rating but then went neutral in their last post. I did make some responses to their reasons, as compiled here, but from what I heard they're busy for now (tbf, as am I). They haven't commented on the "possibly" rating.

DDM and you previously agreed with Ultima's rating so things are currently left neutral.

I'm not sure who else is available as an alternative to Ultima tbh.
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@DarkDragonMedeus @Ultima_Reality

Is that an acceptable solution for you? 🙏
 
Thank you for you reply.

Given that Ultima will be busy with preparing for extremely important exams for the next 2.5 months, we likely need further staff evaluations here.

Can you write down everything that they currently need to evaluate in a single post please, Tyranno223? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for you reply.

Given that Ultima will be busy with preparing for extremely important exams for the next 2.5 months, we likely need further staff evaluations here.

Can you write down everything that they currently need to evaluate in a single post please, Tyranno223? 🙏
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I don't currently have the time to go through the thread for a deep summary, sorry. It's been too long. I'll try and find some time for a proper summary.

In the meantime,

"Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required" – Letter 153

Is the crux of much of the argument. Ultima accepted this quote regarding the nature of Sub-creators (authors of the primary/"real world") as High 1-A+.

The question is whether the Ainur scale to them or not.

vsbattles.com

Tolkien Tier High 1-A+ and 0 Proposal

I'll make one more addition (for this part) in that, as understood by Tolkien, Sub-creation is something that is inherently interconnected. Verlyn Flieger put this quite eloquently in that "light, emanating from the Creator, is, in her view, splintered and passed on through every author's works...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Here is my previous summary of why the Ainur are High 1-A+ (the Eru portion already accepted), the immediate prior post is more comprehensive.

vsbattles.com

Tolkien Tier High 1-A+ and 0 Proposal

The Tier is Linked (With the "{{0}}"). Dw It should look much better (at minimum tolerable) when you're in PC. Unfortunately Fandom mobile is awful Oh, well everything should be grand then! Yeah, mobile really does make it hard to judge. Unless there's anything else, the page should be good to...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com


Here is my summary of the final points presented in the thread and some additional arguments.

For a brief summary of 1-A:

This is a simple transfer of the current tier into modern site standards. The Ainur are Low 1-C for being R>F the Eä (the Legendarium's main universe) in their origin.

As residents of the primary reality, they exist in a level of existence that is higher than secondary ones (like Eä) to the point it is compared to the difference between reality and myth (the primary reality being analogous and oft literally the Real World for Tolkien). The language of their descent into Eä appropriately follows, using language of descent into a lower reality + of a confining of their existence (possible through Eru's benevolence).

For a brief summary of High 1-A+:

1. The Ainur are fellow existences of the Primary Reality alongside denizens of the "Real"/Primary world (the nuances of the cosmology regarding this accepted alongside Eru's tier 0 I believe). The Primary Reality is the level of reality assigned to those who can realise all possible worlds according to Tolkien. The Ainur are comparable.

2. Moreover, the Ainur are not just existences of the Primary World, but the Highest Created beings and fellow sub-creators. They possess the same ability to realise any possible world, with the only difference being they would be certain their created world exists (as opposed to authors).

The current suggestion of a "possibly" rating is largely because of the debatability of some of the points.

For example, the Ainur in their origin technically differ in "power", something inappropriate for High 1-A+. But this difference is not necessarily literally power, as the "strongest" Ainu is unable to harm even those far lesser Ainur who are point blank of his power.

The difference between some of the most powerful Ainur in their origin is knowledge, but this seems more like "what they can imagine" rather than "what they can do" situation. Ainur in their origin cannot even harm each other and only overcome each other by literally presenting larger ideas and concepts. It's less literal power imo, and more akin to being stronger in debating (as Morgoth's power is expressed by drowning out the Music of the other Ainur with his discordant ideas).

Aka, they seem to be all equal in literal power and differ only in who has better ideas and/or awareness of what can be done with their power.
 
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Tyranno223 said:
I don't currently have the time to go through the thread for a deep summary, sorry. It's been too long. I'll try and find some time for a proper summary.
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No problem. Tell us here when you are ready please. 🙏
 
Turns out I underestimated how much free time I'd have today and how long this would take. So to begin the summary.

What has already been accepted?​

Eru Ilúvatar being Tier 0 was accepted and passed through. Ultima previously agreed with everything written regarding the presented views of Tolkien's metaphysics and cosmology (pertaining to Eru. He would change his opinion on the Ainur to neutral. However, his stance on the cosmology remains consistent - "This argument is pretty reductive. Arguing that Tolkien's metaphysics are applicable to the cosmology of the Legendarium isn't the same as saying that Eru is numerically the same as the God that Tolkien believed exists IRL. to quote from here").

Naturally, this includes the existence of High 1-A+ sub-creators as a concept (something Ultima has been fine with since the beginning of the thread), which derive from this statement regarding them

Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required - AKA, all writers create as per the “channels” provided by God, they can only operate as per what the Creator has already used, but within this framework they are utterly unbound except for the laws of contradiction. They cannot perform contradictory actions (as a form of logical omnipotence on a lower scale)

The main matter is now whether or not the Ainur qualify for scaling to the High 1-A+ sub-creators.

But first:

Concerning 1-A​

To begin with, there is some terminology that is worth clarifying. In short, primary realities/worlds refer to the real world/equivalent to it. Secondary realities/worlds refer to myths/fairy tails/fantasy, aka they refer to fictional worlds/equivalents to them.

For a bit more detail, see the below for some Tolkien contextual usage of the terms:
When Tolkien refers to the “primary reality”, he is discussing the direct Creation of God, aka reality. In contrast, the “secondary realities” are fiction, be it mythology or the written works of authors.

But since the author if it is the supreme Artist and the Author of Reality, this one was also made to Be, to be true on the Primary Plane. - Letter 89

This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary' - Letter 153

For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. – Letter 131

This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it. - Letter 131

But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. - Letter 153

Unlike an which is content to create a new secondary world in the mind, it attempts to actualize desire, and so to create power in this World - Letter 75

There is hardly any reference in The Lord of the Rings to things that do not actually exist* on its own plane (of secondary or sub-creational reality) - Letter 180

  • This letter discusses the real world in the same vein as the Timeless Halls. Humans in the Legendarium have their mortality equated to ours.

Tolkien equates the real world "primary reality" to the Timeless Halls, the realm in which the Ainur live in alongside their Creator (kinda again)

"…the Valar or Rulers. These take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered into the world." - Letter 181

"I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished. The theory, if one can dignify the modes of the story with such a term, is that he was a spirit, a minor one but still an 'angelic' spirit. According to the mythology of these things that means that, though of course a creature, he belonged to the race of intelligent beings that were made before the physical world, and were permitted to assist in their measure in the making of it. Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'." - Letter 200


Naturally, Eä is the secondary reality of the Legendarium

  • This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'" - Letter 153

This is a very straightforward matter. The Ainur are currently rated as Low 1-C due to how R>F worked in the old system.

In the current system, R>F is simply 1-A.

For some examples, see this segment which includes a rebuttal of an attempt to delegitimize R>F based on a statement that the lower qualitative reality became equalised to the level that the Ainur were at in their origin.


Response: Regarding the R>F
Regarding the suggestion that the Ainur are of a "secondary quality" rather than a primary, I have stated this is a matter for another thread, but I really have to emphasise that it isn't a good suggestion.

First note these two quotes:
This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all. - Letter 153

For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. – Letter 131

Secondary worlds are fictional worlds and primary worlds are the "real" world. This is the language Tolkien uses throughout his written career.

Now, I will note that the grammar of Letter 200
"Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'."

Can be used to argue that the Ainur are equalised to the secondary reality, but it can equally mean:
  1. Eru gave the the Music existence as the secondary reality.
    • "...when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality"
      • It is "real" but it is a "real" secondary and thus fictional reality.
  2. This reality is subordinate to Eru's reality
    • "...subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality"
      • It is below primary reality, aka the "real world". Eru and the Ainur (as Tolkien's estimation of what real angels are like, he is Christian afterall).
  3. We call Eru's reality the primary reality
    • See above
  4. It is the same plane with the Ainur.
    • "...and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves)"
      • Now here is the rub - this statement has two possible meanings (NOTE: Eru/God cannot be a secondary existence for many many reasons that are already accepted. Tolkien considers Eru a stand-in for God afterall - aka, a fictional name of the real God):
        • The same plane is the secondary world - Ainur are of secondary existence
        • The same plane is the primary world - Ainur are of primary existence
      • However, the first interpretation cannot be as the secondary reality has only just come into existence and the Ainur far predate it
      • Moreover, the Ainur are cemented as originating from the primary reality (see relevant quotes below) and arguing that the primary has become the secondary means there is no primary/secondary distinction which is nonsense as Tolkien maintains that the "real world" in relation to the Legendarium continues to exist.
      • Some Ainur continue to exist in the primary world/Eru's level of reality (relatively speaking, given how Eru is remote to all as an inaccessible being)
And of course, even if you accept the secondary reality interpretation it can just be taken as an outlier regardless.

It's a single line vs multiple that imply or assert Ainur as beings of the primary reality. We know they are from the primary reality as they are referred to literally be from it

"There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers. These take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered into the world." - Letter 181

"So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'subcreative' powers to certain of His highest created beings..." - Letter 153 (they are created beings, not subcreated beings like elves or humans of the Legendarium as noted below in another extract from Letter 153. Also, they are feigned angels of the real world, feigned because Tolkien can't be certain this is what "real" angels are like, but they are still meant to occupy that role)

"The Valar or 'powers, rulers' were the first 'creation': rational spirits or minds without incarnation, created before the physical world. (Strictly these spirits were called Ainur, the Valar being only those from among them who entered the world after its making, and the name is properly applied only to the great among them, who take the imaginative but not the theological place of 'gods'.) The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion." - Letter 212 (again, created beings and made before the world)

Of course there is also simply the matter of Tolkien's use of "language". When referring to a primary/secondary division, he has made it clear that he refers to the difference between realiy and fiction multiple times

"Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world." and "...satisfactions of plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is indeed usually at strife. This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it." and "* It is, I suppose, fundamentally concerned with the problem of the relation of An (and Sub-creation) and Primary Reality"- Letter 131

"But I do not see how even in the Primary World any theologian or philosopher, unless very much better informed about the relation of spirit and body than I believe anyone to be, could deny the possibility of re-incarnation as a mode of existence, prescribed for certain kinds of rational incarnate creatures." and "Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World"- Letter 153 (here is a direct example of asserting the Legendarium beings as secondary (fictional) existences who were sub-created compared to the Primary World)

"Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs." - Silmarillion: AINULINDALË - Many Ainur still remain transcendent to the secondary reality of Eä. Note the use of language with "descent" as well, hardly signifies an equal level of existence (Note: residing with Eru is a relative statement. Eru is just as remote to the Ainur as they are anything else. It's like a Divine Comedy situation where the angels reside in Heaven with God but are just as remote as everything else to God).

Overall, it's just silly to attempt to bring the Ainur before their qualitative descent to an equal reality to the Legendarium. They are too distinguished and outright stated to be primary existences.

Note: The descent of the Ainur into Eä is not an issue to R>F as they specifically have to bind their existence to this secondary level and become reduced to a lower leve of qualitative existence. This is achieved through Eru.

The Valar having entered Arda, and being therein confined within its life, must also suffer (while therein and being as it were its spirit, as the fëa is to the hröa of the Incarnate) its slow ageing - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part One, IV TIME SCALES

All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. Text XI

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. - Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

The crux is that the Ainur have one possible statement of being brought to an equal level as the narrative of the Legendarium, and even then, it can be interpreted in multiple ways. Multiple other statements emphasise they are from the "real" world compared to the Legendarium's setting.

NOTE: There will be further statements regarding the Ainur as primary existences in sections pertaining to High 1-A+. The above are simply some examples.

TLDR regarding the attempted rebuttal: The statement is
  1. Interpretable in other ways than just that one potential anti-statement.
  2. Is a singular statement vs many that assert the Ainur as being of the "Real World"/Primary Reality (of Tolkien's cosmology).
Now for the next part:

How do the Ainur scale to the Sub-creators of the Primary Reality?​

Let's begin with some of the immediate connections.

The Ainur and Writers are both stated to exist in the "primary reality", they are roughly equal existences. This is because for Tolkien's metaphysics, the Ainur are not just angelic entities but rather his approximation of genuine angels.

"Gueroult: Almost the last question: do you in fact believe, yourself, not in the context of this book, believe in the sense of straightforward strict belief, in the Eldar or in some form of governing spirits?

Tolkien: Well the Eldar must be distinguished from the Valar. The Eldar are only…

Gueroult: The Valar, I mean. I'm sorry.

Tolkien: Yes…umm… [pause]

Gueroult: Are you in fact a theist?

Tolkien: [emphatically] Oh, I’m a Roman Catholic…devout Roman Catholic, yes, but I don’t know about angelology. Yes, I should’ve thought almost certainly…yes. Certainly.

- 1964/1965 BBC Interview

The Ainur are the stand-ins for angels must as Eru is for God, and much as Eru is for God, for Tolkien this is a very literal thing. Indeed, Letter 153 is a rather explicit example:

"The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits – of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels –" - Letter 153

Now, this results in a interesting scenario as Tolkien's metaphysics conceives of himself within his Legendarium in a way, hence why Sub-creators are relevant despite being a statement pertaining to writers of the primary reality, aka existences like Tolkien (at least in this context, given there are alternative contexts).

"Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required " - Letter 153

"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety, one of the ways in which indeed it is exhibited, as indeed I said in the Essay." - Letter 153 (regards the nature of what sub-creators do)

Now, as Ainur are stand-ins for angels, there is an interesting relationship that emerges.

“So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did...” - Letter 153

Now, this is a letter referring to the Ainur that refers to them as 'special' sub-creators within the same context of the High 1-A+ writers.

  • NOTE: This is the same letter as the one regarding the limits of writers - aka, this is the same context for sub-creators as the one that qualifies them as High 1-A+
  • NOTE 2: the discussion of “legitimately whether…” regards real angels. Tolkien is unsure whether real angels have this position, but he writes assuming that they do. This is one of his more direct examples of equating Ainur to angels outright. Note the equivalence of Morgoth to to the devil
  • NOTE 3: There is no anti-feat of power differences here by the distinction of the Ainur as "higher" beings than the writers. The line "that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation." makes it clear that the distinction between "writers" and "Ainur" is the guarantee that their creations would be realised, whereas writers/sub-creators are not sure.
  • NOTE 4: Alongside descriptions of possessing special sub-creative might, they are also referred to outright as sub-creators themselves. Albeit the context is often more so in the generic sense of the term as sub-creative beings, the fact that they possess special sub-creative might in relation to those writers of the primary plane makes it clear this statement applies in the High 1-A+ sense as well.
    • "Aule wanted love. But of course had no thought of dispersing his power. Only Eru can give love and independence. If a finite sub-creator tries to do this he really wants absolute loving obedience, but it turns into robotic servitude and becomes evil." - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. VII, Orcs
    • "It is at any rate clear, for he stated it unambiguously enough, that he had come to believe that the art of the 'Sub-creator' cannot, or should not attempt to, extend to the 'mythical' revelation of a conception of the shape of the Earth and the origin of the lights of heaven that runs counter to the known physical truths of his own days:" - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. I
      • Contextually regards the creation of celestial bodies by the Ainur. Tolkien increasingly shifted his work to be more "scientifically accurate" in his later drafts. Hence the Sun and Moon increasingly becoming similar to our real ones until Tolkien decided to just limit them to a few short descriptions.

What is the main remaining discourse?​

Well to brush past 8+ pages of discourse which occasionally got heated (blame goes towards me for part of that), it's because the Ainur aren't as absent from anything narrative-wise as the actual writers Tolkien conceives of. Unlike the other residents of the primary reality, the Ainur/Angels have some narrative presence.

And this is where Ultima's concerns emerge and where the main problems for passing High 1-A+ for either solid or possibly are.

Ultima quoted below:

So: Let's grant that the Ainur exist in the primary reality, and that when the Ainulindale is given existence by Eru, it becomes a secondary reality relative to themselves. Looking at it now, I think a problem for them being High 1-A+ would come into play here: It's been clarified that, as far as can be ascertained, knowledge is the definer of power for the Ainur. Yet, if their knowledge is their power at that level, them being High 1-A+ would pretty much necessitate that their knowledge exhausts everything that Eru can create, which doesn't seem correct.

For that matter, the Star Maker was brought up as an example of a character who has the raw capacity but not the knowledge to make all possible worlds, but that case is different precisely because, in there, power and knowledge are distinct. Here, they're being argued to be identical. So there's not much of a comparison.

Otherwise: The reason for why the statement about writers having no limits save the laws of contradiction is applied to the Ainur is that the Ainur are from "The Primary Reality," which is also what Tolkien terms the real world in which writers like himself live. Now, Tolkien and etc. don't actually exist in the Legendarium, so the argument seems to be moreso that Tolkien considers the Ainur to be functionally of the same nature as writers are in his understanding of the world, and as such the statements about the latter are applicable to the former.

Compounded with the issue of the Ainur's knowledge, I'm admittedly not as sold on this line of reasoning. Mostly because it's missing a link: There is a gap between "The Ainur live in a primary reality to which Eä is secondaries" and "Therefore they have the same abilities as writers." This gap as it stands seems to be filled with "Tolkien uses the term "primary reality" to talk about both where the Ainur are from and the real world," but I do struggle to see how that's adequate justification at all. In Eru's case, at least it's talking about the exact same thing (i.e. God considered as the wellspring of all possible stories and worlds), which isn't the case with the Ainur/Writers comparison.

So, I'm neutral on High 1-A+ Ainur as it stands, since I'd like more information to collapse my stance towards agreeing or disagreeing.

(This is only for the Ainur, by the way. Obviously, I think Eru is still perfectly fine at 0)


Now, there is an immediate resolution above to the latter issue of a lack of link.

  1. "The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits – of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels –" - Letter 153
  2. "Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required " - Letter 153
  3. “So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did...” - Letter 153

This is the chronological order for each extract. For the the extended quote for the whole thing as one, see below.

As for 'whose authority decides these things?' The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits – of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels – reverend, therefore, but not worshipful*; and though
  • *There are thus no temples or 'churches' or fanes in this 'world' among 'good' peoples. They had little or no'religion'in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a Vala(as Elbereth), as a Catholic might on a Saint, though no doubt knowing in theory as well as he that the power of the Vala was limited and derivative. But this is a 'primitive age': and these folk may be said to view the Valar as children view their parents or immediate adult superiors, and though they know they are subjects of the King he does not live in their country nor have there any dwelling. I do not think Hobbits practised any form of worship or prayer (unless through exceptional contact with Elves). The Númenóreans (and others of that branch of Humanity, that fought against Morgoth, even if they elected to remain in Middle-earth and did not go to Númenor: such as the Rohirrim) were pure monotheists. But there was no temple in Númenor (until Sauron introduced the cult of Morgoth). The top of the Mountain, the Meneltarma or Pillar of Heaven, was dedicated to Eru, the One, and there at any time privately, and at certain times publicly, God was invoked, praised, and adored: an imitation of the Valar and the Mountain of Aman. But Numenor fell and was destroyed and the Mountain engulfed, and there was no substitute. Among the exiles, remnants of the Faithful who had not adopted the false religion nor taken pan in the rebellion, religion as divine worship (though perhaps not as philosophy and metaphysics) seems to have played a small part; though a glimpse of it is caught in Faramir's remark on 'grace at meat'.
potently 'subcreative', and resident on Earth to which they are bound by love, having assisted in its making and ordering, they cannot by their own will alter any fundamental provision. They called upon the One in the crisis of the rebellion of Numenor – when the Númenóreans attempted to take the Undying Land by force of a great armada in their lust for corporal immortality – which necessitated a catastrophic change in the shape of Earth. Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required. A writer may be basically 'benevolent' according to his lights (as I hope I am) and yet not be 'beneficent' owing to error and stupidity. I would claim, if I did not think it presumptuous in one so ill-instructed, to have as one object the elucidation of truth, and the encouragement of good morals in this real world, by the ancient device of exemplifying them in unfamiliar embodiments, that may tend to 'bring them home'. But, of course, I may be in error (at some or all points): my truths may not be true, or they may be distorted : and the mirror I have made may be dim and cracked. But I should need to be fully convinced that anything I have 'feigned' is actually harmful, per se and not merely because misunderstood, before I should recant or rewrite anything.

Great harm can be done, of course, by this potent mode of 'myth' – especially wilfully. The right to 'freedom' of the sub-creator is no guarantee among fallen men that it will not be used as wickedly as is Free Will. I am comforted by the fact that some, more pious and learned than I, have found nothing harmful in this Tale or its feignings as a 'myth'. ....

To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (not the same as 'subcreation' as a term in criticism of art, though I tried to show allegorically how that might come to be taken up into Creation in some plane in my 'purgatorial' story Leaf by Niggle (Dublin Review 1945)) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'subcreative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men.
Therefore, it is clear the link is there. Contextually, Tolkien was thinking of the writers as sub-creators in reference to the Ainur as sub-creators. They are linked and therefore the Ainur can be linked to High 1-A+

A bigger issue emerges from the knowledge matter.

Knowledge and the Ainur:​

I will be directly using a previous post of mine below.

Now, for knowledge, while it is a "limit" of sorts to the Ainur, I do not consider it a limit on capability so much as a limit on imagination. For example, when Morgoth's song overcomes the music of other Ainur, none are harmed, not even those nearest to him. Furthermore, all the actual capabilities of the Valar appear equal at this stage, as any could have gone the route of Melkor if they had decided to repute Eru's lessons and strike out on their own.
  • "Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Two: Body, Mind and Spirit, VII: Mind-Pictures

It stands that the Ainur do not so much differ in literal power so much as knowledge at this stage, with said knowledge being the grounds upon which they are compared.

Of course, this lack of knowledge isn't restricting beyond say their creativity, they can go beyond their given roles due to their free-wills afterall. Therefore, there isn't a restriction on their ability to influence/create all possible words (having the capacity even if not the knowledge seems acceptable judging by profiles like The Star-Maker).
  • "...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
  • "In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken." - Letter 212
Moreover, there isn't a true "power" difference in the "punch harder" way. For example, even at point-blank (relatively speaking on such a higher scale), none of the "lesser" Ainur were harmed by Melkor.
  • "But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery..." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
By this I was somewhat trying to differentiate the idea of literal power from knowledge. Ainur at this stage of their existence do not have a outright definition to their "might" beyond knowledge, yes. Indeed, this is why Manwë is mightier than say some Maiar.

"Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds)." - Letter 200. - emphasis on fairly, Manwë comes as close as possible, no more than that.

But this doesn't seem to be literal power in the sense of "Goku's Kamehameha beats Vegeta's Galick Gun". Ainur at this stage cannot harm one another and can only overcome one another via "knowledge". Melkor overcame lesser Ainur with his discordant music, but no harm was done upon those who were against him despite the great power of the Musics.

Moreover, while knowledge limits what they can "create", it is only because they obey Eru's laws. When Melkor decided to become disobedient, he made something he was not taught, the discourse of Evil. This is in contrast to Manwë who naturally would never go beyond them.
"...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA

Therefore in this sense, knowledge can be used to say X Ainu is "mightier" as they possess more ability to create, but only because they obey Eru. Once Eru is disobeyed, Ainur can go beyond their knowledge and make whatever they imagine, just like a writer. It is essentially the limits of what they can imagine not output.

It's essentially that the Ainur are assistants to the author until one goes off on their own to become their own author... well not really as Eru cannot be equaled, but there you go.

HOWEVER​

Something I acknowledge is that this answer to the issue of knowledge isn't entirely water-tight as it is ultimately a interpretation (albeit all things are, but this in particular).

It is a rather singular issue for High 1-A+ that I believe has been mostly dealt with, but due to the interpretability of this final potential issue, I'm more accepting of a possibly rating for the Ainur rather than a solid one.

TLDR:

I currently propose "At least 1-A, possibly/likely/at most High 1-A+ " for the rating of the Ainur in their "Prior to entering Eä" keys.
 
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One more quote I somehow missed for an entire year. From The Nature of Middle-Earth: Appendix, XI, Fate and Free-Will

"Tolkien interrupted the sentence at this point to provide an etymological note on Eä, which reads: “Eä ‘it is’ only = the total of Ambar: the given material and its processes of change. Outside Eä is the world/sphere of aware purpose and will”. This was followed at the bottom of the page by an etymological note on the Quenya word for ‘will’:
?DEL: Q. lēle, v[erb] lelya (lelinye): To will with conscious purpose, immediate or remote. To be willing, to assent, consent, agree – quite different, for it partakes of will but is an additional [?accident]. A man may say “I [?wish], I agree, I will” to some proposition of another without special purpose of his own (but he may also have reflected that it fits in with some design of his own and so agree to it as he might not otherwise have done)."

Aka, the Valar prior to descending resided in a level of existence that was purely thought.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Turns out I underestimated how much free time I'd have today and how long this would take. So to begin the summary.

What has already been accepted?​

Eru Ilúvatar being Tier 0 was accepted and passed through. Ultima previously agreed with everything written regarding the presented views of Tolkien's metaphysics and cosmology (pertaining to Eru. He would change his opinion on the Ainur to neutral. However, his stance on the cosmology remains consistent - "This argument is pretty reductive. Arguing that Tolkien's metaphysics are applicable to the cosmology of the Legendarium isn't the same as saying that Eru is numerically the same as the God that Tolkien believed exists IRL. to quote from here").

Naturally, this includes the existence of High 1-A+ sub-creators as a concept (something Ultima has been fine with since the beginning of the thread), which derive from this statement regarding them

Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required - AKA, all writers create as per the “channels” provided by God, they can only operate as per what the Creator has already used, but within this framework they are utterly unbound except for the laws of contradiction. They cannot perform contradictory actions (as a form of logical omnipotence on a lower scale)

The main matter is now whether or not the Ainur qualify for scaling to the High 1-A+ sub-creators.

But first:

Concerning 1-A​

To begin with, there is some terminology that is worth clarifying. In short, primary realities/worlds refer to the real world/equivalent to it. Secondary realities/worlds refer to myths/fairy tails/fantasy, aka they refer to fictional worlds/equivalents to them.

For a bit more detail, see the below for some Tolkien contextual usage of the terms:
When Tolkien refers to the “primary reality”, he is discussing the direct Creation of God, aka reality. In contrast, the “secondary realities” are fiction, be it mythology or the written works of authors.

But since the author if it is the supreme Artist and the Author of Reality, this one was also made to Be, to be true on the Primary Plane. - Letter 89

This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary' - Letter 153

For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. – Letter 131

This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it. - Letter 131

But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. - Letter 153

Unlike an which is content to create a new secondary world in the mind, it attempts to actualize desire, and so to create power in this World - Letter 75

There is hardly any reference in The Lord of the Rings to things that do not actually exist* on its own plane (of secondary or sub-creational reality) - Letter 180

  • This letter discusses the real world in the same vein as the Timeless Halls. Humans in the Legendarium have their mortality equated to ours.

Tolkien equates the real world "primary reality" to the Timeless Halls, the realm in which the Ainur live in alongside their Creator (kinda again)

"…the Valar or Rulers. These take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered into the world." - Letter 181

"I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished. The theory, if one can dignify the modes of the story with such a term, is that he was a spirit, a minor one but still an 'angelic' spirit. According to the mythology of these things that means that, though of course a creature, he belonged to the race of intelligent beings that were made before the physical world, and were permitted to assist in their measure in the making of it. Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'." - Letter 200


Naturally, Eä is the secondary reality of the Legendarium

  • This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'" - Letter 153

This is a very straightforward matter. The Ainur are currently rated as Low 1-C due to how R>F worked in the old system.

In the current system, R>F is simply 1-A.

For some examples, see this segment which includes a rebuttal of an attempt to delegitimize R>F based on a statement that the lower qualitative reality became equalised to the level that the Ainur were at in their origin.


Response: Regarding the R>F
Regarding the suggestion that the Ainur are of a "secondary quality" rather than a primary, I have stated this is a matter for another thread, but I really have to emphasise that it isn't a good suggestion.

First note these two quotes:
This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all. - Letter 153

For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. – Letter 131

Secondary worlds are fictional worlds and primary worlds are the "real" world. This is the language Tolkien uses throughout his written career.

Now, I will note that the grammar of Letter 200
"Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'."

Can be used to argue that the Ainur are equalised to the secondary reality, but it can equally mean:
  1. Eru gave the the Music existence as the secondary reality.
    • "...when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality"
      • It is "real" but it is a "real" secondary and thus fictional reality.
  2. This reality is subordinate to Eru's reality
    • "...subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality"
      • It is below primary reality, aka the "real world". Eru and the Ainur (as Tolkien's estimation of what real angels are like, he is Christian afterall).
  3. We call Eru's reality the primary reality
    • See above
  4. It is the same plane with the Ainur.
    • "...and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves)"
      • Now here is the rub - this statement has two possible meanings (NOTE: Eru/God cannot be a secondary existence for many many reasons that are already accepted. Tolkien considers Eru a stand-in for God afterall - aka, a fictional name of the real God):
        • The same plane is the secondary world - Ainur are of secondary existence
        • The same plane is the primary world - Ainur are of primary existence
      • However, the first interpretation cannot be as the secondary reality has only just come into existence and the Ainur far predate it
      • Moreover, the Ainur are cemented as originating from the primary reality (see relevant quotes below) and arguing that the primary has become the secondary means there is no primary/secondary distinction which is nonsense as Tolkien maintains that the "real world" in relation to the Legendarium continues to exist.
      • Some Ainur continue to exist in the primary world/Eru's level of reality (relatively speaking, given how Eru is remote to all as an inaccessible being)
And of course, even if you accept the secondary reality interpretation it can just be taken as an outlier regardless.

It's a single line vs multiple that imply or assert Ainur as beings of the primary reality. We know they are from the primary reality as they are referred to literally be from it

"There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers. These take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered into the world." - Letter 181

"So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'subcreative' powers to certain of His highest created beings..." - Letter 153 (they are created beings, not subcreated beings like elves or humans of the Legendarium as noted below in another extract from Letter 153. Also, they are feigned angels of the real world, feigned because Tolkien can't be certain this is what "real" angels are like, but they are still meant to occupy that role)

"The Valar or 'powers, rulers' were the first 'creation': rational spirits or minds without incarnation, created before the physical world. (Strictly these spirits were called Ainur, the Valar being only those from among them who entered the world after its making, and the name is properly applied only to the great among them, who take the imaginative but not the theological place of 'gods'.) The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion." - Letter 212 (again, created beings and made before the world)

Of course there is also simply the matter of Tolkien's use of "language". When referring to a primary/secondary division, he has made it clear that he refers to the difference between realiy and fiction multiple times

"Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world." and "...satisfactions of plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is indeed usually at strife. This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it." and "* It is, I suppose, fundamentally concerned with the problem of the relation of An (and Sub-creation) and Primary Reality"- Letter 131

"But I do not see how even in the Primary World any theologian or philosopher, unless very much better informed about the relation of spirit and body than I believe anyone to be, could deny the possibility of re-incarnation as a mode of existence, prescribed for certain kinds of rational incarnate creatures." and "Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World"- Letter 153 (here is a direct example of asserting the Legendarium beings as secondary (fictional) existences who were sub-created compared to the Primary World)

"Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs." - Silmarillion: AINULINDALË - Many Ainur still remain transcendent to the secondary reality of Eä. Note the use of language with "descent" as well, hardly signifies an equal level of existence (Note: residing with Eru is a relative statement. Eru is just as remote to the Ainur as they are anything else. It's like a Divine Comedy situation where the angels reside in Heaven with God but are just as remote as everything else to God).

Overall, it's just silly to attempt to bring the Ainur before their qualitative descent to an equal reality to the Legendarium. They are too distinguished and outright stated to be primary existences.

Note: The descent of the Ainur into Eä is not an issue to R>F as they specifically have to bind their existence to this secondary level and become reduced to a lower leve of qualitative existence. This is achieved through Eru.

The Valar having entered Arda, and being therein confined within its life, must also suffer (while therein and being as it were its spirit, as the fëa is to the hröa of the Incarnate) its slow ageing - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part One, IV TIME SCALES

All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. Text XI

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. - Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

The crux is that the Ainur have one possible statement of being brought to an equal level as the narrative of the Legendarium, and even then, it can be interpreted in multiple ways. Multiple other statements emphasise they are from the "real" world compared to the Legendarium's setting.

NOTE: There will be further statements regarding the Ainur as primary existences in sections pertaining to High 1-A+. The above are simply some examples.

TLDR regarding the attempted rebuttal: The statement is
  1. Interpretable in other ways than just that one potential anti-statement.
  2. Is a singular statement vs many that assert the Ainur as being of the "Real World"/Primary Reality (of Tolkien's cosmology).
Now for the next part:

How do the Ainur scale to the Sub-creators of the Primary Reality?​

Let's begin with some of the immediate connections.

The Ainur and Writers are both stated to exist in the "primary reality", they are roughly equal existences. This is because for Tolkien's metaphysics, the Ainur are not just angelic entities but rather his approximation of genuine angels.

"Gueroult: Almost the last question: do you in fact believe, yourself, not in the context of this book, believe in the sense of straightforward strict belief, in the Eldar or in some form of governing spirits?

Tolkien: Well the Eldar must be distinguished from the Valar. The Eldar are only…

Gueroult: The Valar, I mean. I'm sorry.

Tolkien: Yes…umm… [pause]

Gueroult: Are you in fact a theist?

Tolkien: [emphatically] Oh, I’m a Roman Catholic…devout Roman Catholic, yes, but I don’t know about angelology. Yes, I should’ve thought almost certainly…yes. Certainly.

- 1964/1965 BBC Interview

The Ainur are the stand-ins for angels must as Eru is for God, and much as Eru is for God, for Tolkien this is a very literal thing. Indeed, Letter 153 is a rather explicit example:

"The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits – of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels –" - Letter 153

Now, this results in a interesting scenario as Tolkien's metaphysics conceives of himself within his Legendarium in a way, hence why Sub-creators are relevant despite being a statement pertaining to writers of the primary reality, aka existences like Tolkien (at least in this context, given there are alternative contexts).

"Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required " - Letter 153

"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety, one of the ways in which indeed it is exhibited, as indeed I said in the Essay." - Letter 153 (regards the nature of what sub-creators do)

Now, as Ainur are stand-ins for angels, there is an interesting relationship that emerges.

“So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did...” - Letter 153

Now, this is a letter referring to the Ainur that refers to them as 'special' sub-creators within the same context of the High 1-A+ writers.

  • NOTE: This is the same letter as the one regarding the limits of writers - aka, this is the same context for sub-creators as the one that qualifies them as High 1-A+
  • NOTE 2: the discussion of “legitimately whether…” regards real angels. Tolkien is unsure whether real angels have this position, but he writes assuming that they do. This is one of his more direct examples of equating Ainur to angels outright. Note the equivalence of Morgoth to to the devil
  • NOTE 3: There is no anti-feat of power differences here by the distinction of the Ainur as "higher" beings than the writers. The line "that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation." makes it clear that the distinction between "writers" and "Ainur" is the guarantee that their creations would be realised, whereas writers/sub-creators are not sure.
  • NOTE 4: Alongside descriptions of possessing special sub-creative might, they are also referred to outright as sub-creators themselves. Albeit the context is often more so in the generic sense of the term as sub-creative beings, the fact that they possess special sub-creative might in relation to those writers of the primary plane makes it clear this statement applies in the High 1-A+ sense as well.
    • "Aule wanted love. But of course had no thought of dispersing his power. Only Eru can give love and independence. If a finite sub-creator tries to do this he really wants absolute loving obedience, but it turns into robotic servitude and becomes evil." - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. VII, Orcs
    • "It is at any rate clear, for he stated it unambiguously enough, that he had come to believe that the art of the 'Sub-creator' cannot, or should not attempt to, extend to the 'mythical' revelation of a conception of the shape of the Earth and the origin of the lights of heaven that runs counter to the known physical truths of his own days:" - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. I
      • Contextually regards the creation of celestial bodies by the Ainur. Tolkien increasingly shifted his work to be more "scientifically accurate" in his later drafts. Hence the Sun and Moon increasingly becoming similar to our real ones until Tolkien decided to just limit them to a few short descriptions.

What is the main remaining discourse?​

Well to brush past 8+ pages of discourse which occasionally got heated (blame goes towards me for part of that), it's because the Ainur aren't as absent from anything narrative-wise as the actual writers Tolkien conceives of. Unlike the other residents of the primary reality, the Ainur/Angels have some narrative presence.

And this is where Ultima's concerns emerge and where the main problems for passing High 1-A+ for either solid or possibly are.

Ultima quoted below:

So: Let's grant that the Ainur exist in the primary reality, and that when the Ainulindale is given existence by Eru, it becomes a secondary reality relative to themselves. Looking at it now, I think a problem for them being High 1-A+ would come into play here: It's been clarified that, as far as can be ascertained, knowledge is the definer of power for the Ainur. Yet, if their knowledge is their power at that level, them being High 1-A+ would pretty much necessitate that their knowledge exhausts everything that Eru can create, which doesn't seem correct.

For that matter, the Star Maker was brought up as an example of a character who has the raw capacity but not the knowledge to make all possible worlds, but that case is different precisely because, in there, power and knowledge are distinct. Here, they're being argued to be identical. So there's not much of a comparison.

Otherwise: The reason for why the statement about writers having no limits save the laws of contradiction is applied to the Ainur is that the Ainur are from "The Primary Reality," which is also what Tolkien terms the real world in which writers like himself live. Now, Tolkien and etc. don't actually exist in the Legendarium, so the argument seems to be moreso that Tolkien considers the Ainur to be functionally of the same nature as writers are in his understanding of the world, and as such the statements about the latter are applicable to the former.

Compounded with the issue of the Ainur's knowledge, I'm admittedly not as sold on this line of reasoning. Mostly because it's missing a link: There is a gap between "The Ainur live in a primary reality to which Eä is secondaries" and "Therefore they have the same abilities as writers." This gap as it stands seems to be filled with "Tolkien uses the term "primary reality" to talk about both where the Ainur are from and the real world," but I do struggle to see how that's adequate justification at all. In Eru's case, at least it's talking about the exact same thing (i.e. God considered as the wellspring of all possible stories and worlds), which isn't the case with the Ainur/Writers comparison.

So, I'm neutral on High 1-A+ Ainur as it stands, since I'd like more information to collapse my stance towards agreeing or disagreeing.

(This is only for the Ainur, by the way. Obviously, I think Eru is still perfectly fine at 0)


Now, there is an immediate resolution above to the latter issue of a lack of link.

  1. "The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits – of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels –" - Letter 153
  2. "Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required " - Letter 153
  3. “So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did...” - Letter 153

This is the chronological order for each extract. For the the extended quote for the whole thing as one, see below.

As for 'whose authority decides these things?' The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits – of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels – reverend, therefore, but not worshipful*; and though
  • *There are thus no temples or 'churches' or fanes in this 'world' among 'good' peoples. They had little or no'religion'in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a Vala(as Elbereth), as a Catholic might on a Saint, though no doubt knowing in theory as well as he that the power of the Vala was limited and derivative. But this is a 'primitive age': and these folk may be said to view the Valar as children view their parents or immediate adult superiors, and though they know they are subjects of the King he does not live in their country nor have there any dwelling. I do not think Hobbits practised any form of worship or prayer (unless through exceptional contact with Elves). The Númenóreans (and others of that branch of Humanity, that fought against Morgoth, even if they elected to remain in Middle-earth and did not go to Númenor: such as the Rohirrim) were pure monotheists. But there was no temple in Númenor (until Sauron introduced the cult of Morgoth). The top of the Mountain, the Meneltarma or Pillar of Heaven, was dedicated to Eru, the One, and there at any time privately, and at certain times publicly, God was invoked, praised, and adored: an imitation of the Valar and the Mountain of Aman. But Numenor fell and was destroyed and the Mountain engulfed, and there was no substitute. Among the exiles, remnants of the Faithful who had not adopted the false religion nor taken pan in the rebellion, religion as divine worship (though perhaps not as philosophy and metaphysics) seems to have played a small part; though a glimpse of it is caught in Faramir's remark on 'grace at meat'.
potently 'subcreative', and resident on Earth to which they are bound by love, having assisted in its making and ordering, they cannot by their own will alter any fundamental provision. They called upon the One in the crisis of the rebellion of Numenor – when the Númenóreans attempted to take the Undying Land by force of a great armada in their lust for corporal immortality – which necessitated a catastrophic change in the shape of Earth. Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required. A writer may be basically 'benevolent' according to his lights (as I hope I am) and yet not be 'beneficent' owing to error and stupidity. I would claim, if I did not think it presumptuous in one so ill-instructed, to have as one object the elucidation of truth, and the encouragement of good morals in this real world, by the ancient device of exemplifying them in unfamiliar embodiments, that may tend to 'bring them home'. But, of course, I may be in error (at some or all points): my truths may not be true, or they may be distorted : and the mirror I have made may be dim and cracked. But I should need to be fully convinced that anything I have 'feigned' is actually harmful, per se and not merely because misunderstood, before I should recant or rewrite anything.

Great harm can be done, of course, by this potent mode of 'myth' – especially wilfully. The right to 'freedom' of the sub-creator is no guarantee among fallen men that it will not be used as wickedly as is Free Will. I am comforted by the fact that some, more pious and learned than I, have found nothing harmful in this Tale or its feignings as a 'myth'. ....

To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (not the same as 'subcreation' as a term in criticism of art, though I tried to show allegorically how that might come to be taken up into Creation in some plane in my 'purgatorial' story Leaf by Niggle (Dublin Review 1945)) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'subcreative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men.
Therefore, it is clear the link is there. Contextually, Tolkien was thinking of the writers as sub-creators in reference to the Ainur as sub-creators. They are linked and therefore the Ainur can be linked to High 1-A+

A bigger issue emerges from the knowledge matter.

Knowledge and the Ainur:​

I will be directly using a previous post of mine below.

Now, for knowledge, while it is a "limit" of sorts to the Ainur, I do not consider it a limit on capability so much as a limit on imagination. For example, when Morgoth's song overcomes the music of other Ainur, none are harmed, not even those nearest to him. Furthermore, all the actual capabilities of the Valar appear equal at this stage, as any could have gone the route of Melkor if they had decided to repute Eru's lessons and strike out on their own.
  • "Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Two: Body, Mind and Spirit, VII: Mind-Pictures

It stands that the Ainur do not so much differ in literal power so much as knowledge at this stage, with said knowledge being the grounds upon which they are compared.

Of course, this lack of knowledge isn't restricting beyond say their creativity, they can go beyond their given roles due to their free-wills afterall. Therefore, there isn't a restriction on their ability to influence/create all possible words (having the capacity even if not the knowledge seems acceptable judging by profiles like The Star-Maker).
  • "...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
  • "In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken." - Letter 212
Moreover, there isn't a true "power" difference in the "punch harder" way. For example, even at point-blank (relatively speaking on such a higher scale), none of the "lesser" Ainur were harmed by Melkor.
  • "But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery..." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
By this I was somewhat trying to differentiate the idea of literal power from knowledge. Ainur at this stage of their existence do not have a outright definition to their "might" beyond knowledge, yes. Indeed, this is why Manwë is mightier than say some Maiar.

"Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds)." - Letter 200. - emphasis on fairly, Manwë comes as close as possible, no more than that.

But this doesn't seem to be literal power in the sense of "Goku's Kamehameha beats Vegeta's Galick Gun". Ainur at this stage cannot harm one another and can only overcome one another via "knowledge". Melkor overcame lesser Ainur with his discordant music, but no harm was done upon those who were against him despite the great power of the Musics.

Moreover, while knowledge limits what they can "create", it is only because they obey Eru's laws. When Melkor decided to become disobedient, he made something he was not taught, the discourse of Evil. This is in contrast to Manwë who naturally would never go beyond them.
"...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA

Therefore in this sense, knowledge can be used to say X Ainu is "mightier" as they possess more ability to create, but only because they obey Eru. Once Eru is disobeyed, Ainur can go beyond their knowledge and make whatever they imagine, just like a writer. It is essentially the limits of what they can imagine not output.

It's essentially that the Ainur are assistants to the author until one goes off on their own to become their own author... well not really as Eru cannot be equaled, but there you go.

HOWEVER​

Something I acknowledge is that this answer to the issue of knowledge isn't entirely water-tight as it is ultimately a interpretation (albeit all things are, but this in particular).

It is a rather singular issue for High 1-A+ that I believe has been mostly dealt with, but due to the interpretability of this final potential issue, I'm more accepting of a possibly rating for the Ainur rather than a solid one.

TLDR:

I currently propose "At least 1-A, possibly/likely/at most High 1-A+ " for the rating of the Ainur in their "Prior to entering Eä" keys.
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Tyranno223 said:
One more quote I somehow missed for an entire year. From The Nature of Middle-Earth: Appendix, XI, Fate and Free-Will

"Tolkien interrupted the sentence at this point to provide an etymological note on Eä, which reads: “Eä ‘it is’ only = the total of Ambar: the given material and its processes of change. Outside Eä is the world/sphere of aware purpose and will”. This was followed at the bottom of the page by an etymological note on the Quenya word for ‘will’:
?DEL: Q. lēle, v[erb] lelya (lelinye): To will with conscious purpose, immediate or remote. To be willing, to assent, consent, agree – quite different, for it partakes of will but is an additional [?accident]. A man may say “I [?wish], I agree, I will” to some proposition of another without special purpose of his own (but he may also have reflected that it fits in with some design of his own and so agree to it as he might not otherwise have done)."

Aka, the Valar prior to descending resided in a level of existence that was purely thought.
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@Mr. Bambu @Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeus @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou

Your help would be very appreciated here. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Your help would be very appreciated here. 🙏
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Mr. Bambu said:
Ideally I would be the last person called to handle Tier 1/0 stuff. I hate our system and I think it's fake. I certainly won't be the one to push it on LotR.
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Antvasima said:
I would appreciate if you inform me further about this in private. 🙏
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I also have some standing complaints about Tier 1/0 (although evidently not as strongly as Bambu.)

High 1-A+ itself is kind of under contention in general, and there's staff threads pending about how exactly to handle it and clarify the definition, so perhaps we should wait for those to be fully resolved before deciding this.

Though, if you want me to evaluate this thread based purely on our current standards, I can do that.
 
FinePoint said:
High 1-A+ itself is kind of under contention in general, and there's staff threads pending about how exactly to handle it and clarify the definition, so perhaps we should wait for those to be fully resolved before deciding this.

Though, if you want me to evaluate this thread based purely on our current standards, I can do that.
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High 1-A+ is actually pretty straight forward itself here, but the main issue is whether this applies to the unrestricted Ainur or not.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
High 1-A+ is actually pretty straight forward itself here, but the main issue is whether this applies to the unrestricted Ainur or not.
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Well if the question is just who it scales to, then I would mostly be relying on the input of supporters anyway.

Which, I could also still do to see if there's anything which blatantly doesn't make sense, but ultimately I'd just be trusting you guys to put it into proper context, since the alternative would be me consuming all Tolkien media ever made myself, or to sit here and ask for scans until I basically have.
 
Antvasima said:
I would appreciate if you inform me further about this in private. 🙏
Click to expand...
I think it was half intended to be a running joke mainly the "It's fake" part. But Bambu basically has voiced on multiple occasions he just doesn't like debates that involve Low 1-C and above tiers and basically finds them too convoluted for his preference.
 
FinePoint said:
Well if the question is just who it scales to, then I would mostly be relying on the input of supporters anyway.

Which, I could also still do to see if there's anything which blatantly doesn't make sense, but ultimately I'd just be trusting you guys to put it into proper context, since the alternative would be me consuming all Tolkien media ever made myself, or to sit here and ask for scans until I basically have.
Click to expand...
Fair. Imo, Tyranno's proposal makes the most sense. I would say likely High 1A+ even.

Edit: Just noticed it is almost the one year anniversary of this CRT. Wow, time moves incredibly fast wtf
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
I think it was half intended to be a running joke mainly the "It's fake" part. But Bambu basically has voiced on multiple occasions he just doesn't like debates that involve Low 1-C and above tiers and basically finds them too convoluted for his preference.
Click to expand...
Wow, it is nice to know this.
 
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