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Oh, well everything should be grand then! Yeah, mobile really does make it hard to judge. Unless there's anything else, the page should be good to lock then.
Just need Ultima to weigh in on the Ainur tiering and the thread can close.
Oh, well everything should be grand then! Yeah, mobile really does make it hard to judge. Unless there's anything else, the page should be good to lock then.
Just need Ultima to weigh in on the Ainur tiering and the thread can close.
Though tbh, think that might be best for the approval of all the Ainur and Maiar being High 1-A+. Cus I feel like that whole section should have a complete do-over.
I'll copy past a part of my post on the other thread to discuss this matter here:
3. This will be my most controversial point, and thus is something I think all of us glossed over. The Ainur during the Ainulindalë may are not stronger than they were at the beginning of Time. This is the quote I'm referring to:
"The time of Melkor’s greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale."
I emphasized the important part. Morgoth (who is ofc the strongest Vala) is stated by Tolkien that his strongest was in the physical beginning of the World, aka the beginning of Time, not during the Timeless Halls. Logically, the other Valar follow that logic. I suppose one could argue that "physical beginnings of the world" refer to the Timeless Halls, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Tolkien always equates "World" with Eä, which is the Material Universe according to the index in the Published Silmarillion. Not to mention that technically speaking, nothing was "Physical" in the Timeless Halls, as that had yet to be made. The full context where that statement comes from was describing how Morgoth grew weaker as he spread his essence into the physical world, to top it off.
For us, that seems odd and probably illogical, but it's most likely that Tolkien simply never knew anything about higher dimensions and all that. Dimensional scaling wouldn't really apply to the Ainur going by this quote. The Ainur would still keep higher dimensionality as a power of sorts, but they would be below their physical forms during the beginning of Time.
I'll copy past a part of my post on the other thread to discuss this matter here:
3. This will be my most controversial point, and thus is something I think all of us glossed over. The Ainur during the Ainulindalë may are not stronger than they were at the beginning of Time. This is the quote I'm referring to:
"The time of Melkor’s greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale."
I emphasized the important part. Morgoth (who is ofc the strongest Vala) is stated by Tolkien that his strongest was in the physical beginning of the World, aka the beginning of Time, not during the Timeless Halls. Logically, the other Valar follow that logic.
For us, that seems odd and probably illogical, but it's most likely that Tolkien simply never knew anything about higher dimensions and all that. Dimensional scaling wouldn't really apply to the Ainur going by this quote. The Ainur would still keep higher dimensionality as a power of sorts, but they would be below their physical forms during the beginning of Time.
I'll copy past a part of my post on the other thread to discuss this matter here:
3. This will be my most controversial point, and thus is something I think all of us glossed over. The Ainur during the Ainulindalë may are not stronger than they were at the beginning of Time. This is the quote I'm referring to:
"The time of Melkor’s greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale."
To be quite clear, I have addressed this in the draft, outdated as it has now become due to how long this thread has become.
To be precise, this part:
Naturally, Eä is the secondary reality of the Legendarium
This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all." - Letter 153
In the most basic interpretation of LotR’s cosmology, this is at minimum an R>F difference between the Secondary and the Primary. Indeed, not even the descent of the Ainur into Eä is an issue as they specifically have to bind their existence to this secondary level and become reduced
The Valar having entered Arda, and being therein confined within its life, must also suffer (while therein and being as it were its spirit, as the fëa is to the hröa of the Incarnate) its slow ageing - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part One, IV TIME SCALES
All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. Text XI
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. - Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
So what does this mean? Well it quite clearly differentiates the Valar (and hence Ainur) from their periods within and beyond time.
This line in particular is significant:
"But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs." - Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
I emphasized the important part. Morgoth (who is ofc the strongest Vala) is stated by Tolkien that his strongest was in the physical beginning of the World, aka the beginning of Time, not during the Timeless Halls. Logically, the other Valar follow that logic. I suppose one could argue that "physical beginnings of the world" refer to the Timeless Halls, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Tolkien always equates "World" with Eä, which is the Material Universe according to the index in the Published Silmarillion. Not to mention that technically speaking, nothing was "Physical" in the Timeless Halls, as that had yet to be made. The full context where that statement comes from was describing how Morgoth grew weaker as he spread his essence into the physical world, to top it off.
The World cannot be equated to the Timeless Halls, as you know, the basic transition being of this nature:
Eru makes the Ainur
Eru gives life to the work of the Ainur
Time and Space are made
The Ainur enter and become bound to time and space.
And certainly, Morgoth grew weaker as he spread his essence. Hence why he is stronger at the beginning. But let us be clear about something, what the Ainur were at the beginning of time does not equate what they were in origin.
Something that is indeed a premise of your argument, but there is a step further to take, the aforementioned differentiation.
"Eldest, that’s what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.’" - The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring, Book One, Chapter 7 In the House of Tom Bombadil
When the Ainur entered the world, they can be considered somewhat "different". They are now, as mentioned, bound and limited by time and space as entities of the universe. Moreover, they entered some time perhaps shortly after the very beginning of things.
Tom is NOT ERU (sorry, that just gripes me, but this is more of a disclaimer) and we know him to be an existence somewhat tied to Arda (given what is said about him in the Council of Elrond). He is a being of Eä and yet is older than the first creations of Eru.
"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË as the first lines in the book.
There is is a differentiation present, the Ainur cannot be equated to what they were before as they are now beings of time and space, limited and bound.
Hence why Tom Bombadil or the Nameless Things can be older than the Ainur as the Ainur had no age prior to entering time despite explicitly being the first things Eru made.
I have said this in the other thread, but please don't drift into arguments of incredulity, this wasn't necessary to your point.
As a Christian, we have conceptions of higher and lower planes in Heaven and Hell and one need only look at Dante's Inferno for that. Tolkien was a far greater devotee than I ever will be and his writings make it quite clear he can conceive of higher and lower worlds. Most notably in the matter of Creations and Sub-creations.
Edit: That might have come off harsher that intended.
Not a big issue, but it is a gripe of mine too.
The Within the confines of Eä | Prior to entering Eä division is there to differentiate two different states of beings for the Ainur from when they unrestricted and when they were restricted. Statements of the former which proclaim "strongest" or "weakest" are not relevant to the latter. This is in the same way as saying statements of age do not matter for the latter, as we know the Ainur were the first creations of Eru (who is the only Creator in the Legendarium).
Hi! Just to be clear, what did the discussion settle for?
Tier 0 for Eru has been already approved, as He's correctly assumed as unbound by any laws and rules aside from those He Himself set (and that he could change at will, if He wanted to), being even outside and superior to the concept of "Being" itself.
But what about the Ainur "Before entering Eä"?
Is still the "High 1-A+" tiering that needs evaluation or was it settled as something else (like "1-A, possibly High 1-A+")?
I'd personally support the latter ("1-A, possibly High 1-A+"), as it seems to more solidly consider the ambivalent nature of Ainur.
They entirely trascend the world of Eä, which is to them something akin to fiction, and their true self is unreachable by creatures existing in the secondary reality that is Eä (and Arda within it), but are still "no nearer to [Eru's] majesty" than they are to the rest of the existing World, being limited in their perceptions and power in accordance to what Eru decided. This would still be enough to classify them as "1-A".
Despite this, as the OP correctly said, they're extremely powerful sub-creative entities, at times described as beings with creative power on par with that of the author of the tale (J.R.R. Tolkien), despite being still immensely far from the might of the "True Author" of the story (Eru), thus as entities almost 'omnipotent' in their creative power, though always within Eru's frame of rules (so "High 1-A+"). I tried to summarise, but correct me if I'm wrong.
To me, this could be best described with a "1-A (they trascend their narrative world indefinitely), possibly High 1-A+ (as they're said to be unbound by any rules, aside from those set by Ilúvatar, though inconsistently so)" tag.
But I could also agree with a simpler "High 1-A+" tiering, if we're willing to give emphasis to their extremely powerful sub-creative ability and their (occasionally recognised) peerage with the physical writer of the books.
Hi! Just to be clear, what did the discussion settle for?
Tier 0 for Eru has been already approved, as He's correctly assumed as unbound to any laws and rules aside from those He Himself set (and that he could change at will, if He wanted to), being even outside and superior to the concept of "Being" itself.
But what about the Ainur "Before entering Eä"?
Is still the "High 1-A+" tiering that needs evaluation or was it settled as something else (like "1-A, possibly High 1-A+")?
I'd personally support the latter ("1-A, possibly High 1-A+"), as it seems more solidly considering the ambivalent nature of Ainur.
They entirely trascend the world of Eä, which is to them something akin to fiction, and their true self is unreachable by creatures existing in the secondary reality that is Eä (and Arda within it), but are still "no nearer to [Eru's] majesty" than they are to the rest of the existing World, being limited in their perceptions and power in accordance to what Eru decided. This would still be enough to classify them as "1-A".
Despite this, as the OP correctly said, they're extremely powerful sub-creative entities, at times described as beings with creative power on par with that of the author of the tale (J.R.R. Tolkien), though still immensely far from the might of the "True Author" of the story (Eru), thus as beings almost 'omnipotent' in their creative power, though still within Eru's frame of rules (so "High 1-A+"). I tried to summarise, but correct me if I'm wrong.
To me, this could be best described with a "1-A (they trascend their narrative world indefinitely), possibly High 1-A+ (as they're said to be unbound to any rules, aside from those set by Ilúvatar, tough inconsistently so)" tag.
But I could also agree with a simpler "High 1-A+" tiering, if we're willing to give emphasis to their extremely powerful sub-creative ability and their (occasionally recognised) peerage with the physical writer of the books.
He and CS Lewis probably debated on who would win between Aslan and Eru and started trying to one up each other, in the process creating the concept for Outerversal.
He and CS Lewis probably debated on who would win between Aslan and Eru and started trying to one up each other, in the process creating the concept for Outerversal.
The Emperor who is a stand-in for God the Father is Aslan’s father, but the distinction and separation aren't physical or metaphysical since in the end, they're both the same thing since the source of inspiration says the same thing.
It's been a while since I've been on this thread either, but the initially proposal was to make the Ainur High 1-A+ based on statements of them cosmologically occupying a similar position to the writers of stories as fellow Sub-Creators and occupants of the "Primary Reality" (aka, the real world). A lot of this is to do with how Tolkien's faith is explained in regards to his writing.
There's been a lot of back and forth over that and at this point I'm suggesting a "At least 1-A, possibly/likely/at most/etc High 1-A+" compromise for being R>F by minimum.
I'm not entirely sure who would be a viable alternative to Ultima tbh since he was active in this thread from the beginning until he got busy.
Well, if you provide a single post that explains all of the relevant information that currently needs to be evaluated here, I can ping several knowledgeable members to evaluate it afterwards.
Well, if you provide a single post that explains all of the relevant information that currently needs to be evaluated here, I can ping several knowledgeable members to evaluate it afterwards.
I don't entirely trust myself to represent the entire argument, so I'll go over the final few messages + some messages I sent to Ultima.
There was a lot of other arguments, but this exchange was when Ultima left his comment on neutrality after going through the positions.
Ultima's last message on the topic was here.
When we last left, he was neutral on High 1-A+ because of the argument that the Secondary/Primary reality distinction might have collapsed + because of a seemingly weak link between the Ainur and the Authors. If a link between the authors and Ainur is closed, then presumably he would have be fine with the rating.
Initial message from Elbekarym Ultima was responding to:
The point is that Tolkien differentiates between an actualized and a non-actualized (by God) secondary world. I'm arguing that actualized worlds are ontologically similar to primary creation (as they are, in fact, primarily created). In other words:
1 - Ea has an actual existence (in-universe). Sub-creations per se do not (as long as they are not actualized by God).
2 - The omnipotence of the author is simply to be able to imagine anything. But imagining is not doing.
3 - The author's transcendence over his fiction is effective only as long as the latter is fiction.
4 - If tomorrow God (the real one) decides to actualize Tolkien's universe, Tolkien will lose his creative power over his universe, since it is no longer fictional.
5 - The Valars have a certain creative power (to the extent of their intellect) as long as Ea does not exist. Once it does, they no longer have it. They don't transcend Ea, whether inside or outside, precisely because Ea is then no longer a fiction.
(I say “certain” because Eru takes an active part in creation: he proposes themes, interrupts when things go wrong, etc. The Valar are not fancy free). Ultima
"This is a pretty interesting argument. Basically arguing that, when Eä exists as only the Music of the Ainur, it isn't real at all, and it only becomes real (As in, the actual Eä, the universe) when Eru endows it with the Flame But when Eä becomes real, is precisely when it comes to be on the same level as the Ainur, based on this:
"Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'."
– Letter 200
It does, at prima facie, seem to saying that the Ainur live in the secondary reality, Eru in the primary, and Eä is a story/vision that is given secondary reality on par with the Ainur's by the Flame Imperishable. But Tyranno's already pointed out that the Ainur being of the primary reality is already accepted, and they are stated to be from "the primary creation," so I'll leave that alone. It's not a topic of discussion for this thread.
So: Let's grant that the Ainur exist in the primary reality, and that when the Ainulindale is given existence by Eru, it becomes a secondary reality relative to themselves. Looking at it now, I think a problem for them being High 1-A+ would come into play here: It's been clarified that, as far as can be ascertained, knowledge is the definer of power for the Ainur. Yet, if their knowledge is their power at that level, them being High 1-A+ would pretty much necessitate that their knowledge exhausts everything that Eru can create, which doesn't seem correct.
For that matter, the Star Maker was brought up as an example of a character who has the raw capacity but not the knowledge to make all possible worlds, but that case is different precisely because, in there, power and knowledge are distinct. Here, they're being argued to be identical. So there's not much of a comparison.
Otherwise: The reason for why the statement about writers having no limits save the laws of contradiction is applied to the Ainur is that the Ainur are from "The Primary Reality," which is also what Tolkien terms the real world in which writers like himself live. Now, Tolkien and etc. don't actually exist in the Legendarium, so the argument seems to be moreso that Tolkien considers the Ainur to be functionally of the same nature as writers are in his understanding of the world, and as such the statements about the latter are applicable to the former.
Compounded with the issue of the Ainur's knowledge, I'm admittedly not as sold on this line of reasoning. Mostly because it's missing a link: There is a gap between "The Ainur live in a primary reality to which Eä is secondaries" and "Therefore they have the same abilities as writers." This gap as it stands seems to be filled with "Tolkien uses the term "primary reality" to talk about both where the Ainur are from and the real world," but I do struggle to see how that's adequate justification at all. In Eru's case, at least it's talking about the exact same thing (i.e. God considered as the wellspring of all possible stories and worlds), which isn't the case with the Ainur/Writers comparison."
Because the thread was getting quite cluttered and a move to DMs was suggested, I sent Ultima a response to both the R>F matter, but the link between the Ainur and the authors was something I addressed both there and here.
My response was mainly to the point that knowledge = power persay, which I admittedly worded wrong in my previous post. Knowledge isn't = power persay, so much as it limits imagination.
Response: Regarding the link between the Ainur and the Authors.
"Letter 153 is the main connecting thread I have for the Ainur and the writers. This is because the type of sub-creation used by both is not differentiated despite Tolkien making sure to clarify when he is referring to another type of subcreation (for example, purely artistic).
"To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (not the same as 'subcreation' as a term in criticism of art, though I tried to show allegorically how that might come to be taken up into Creation in some plane in my 'purgatorial' story Leaf by Niggle (Dublin Review 1945)) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'subcreative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence– even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)"
So the two groups share the same type of subcreation, and the Ainur are described as the "highest created beings" (created beings being another instance of their existence as Primary things as they are not sub-created beings) and possessing "special" subcreative power in comparison to other beings. This would of course include the Sub-creators of the Primary Reality.
The chief hallmark here is that:
The Ainur's role as "special" sub-creators is that, unlike say writers, they are given the gift of "certainty" and this is not a form of sub-creation that is distinguished from Tolkien's kind, with Tolkien using artistic sub-creation as an example of when he refers to a different kind from that of literal creation.
As such, they are considered beings who have sub-creative gifts of "certainty" from God and are described as possessing a similar sort of sub-creative power as Tolkien, with Tolkien clarifying when he discusses a different type of sub-creation.
As their only difference to writers is that very certainty, they should be comparable as sub-creators.
NOTE: As previously said in this conversation, "highest created beings" doesn't mean the Ainur are necessarily somehow "more powerful" as subcreators, the main difference being the Ainur gain certainty when they create.
Now, for knowledge, while it is a "limit" of sorts to the Ainur, I do not consider it a limit on capability so much as a limit on imagination. For example, when Morgoth's song overcomes the music of other Ainur, none are harmed, not even those nearest to him. Furthermore, all the actual capabilities of the Valar appear equal at this stage, as any could have gone the route of Melkor if they had decided to repute Eru's lessons and strike out on their own.
"Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Two: Body, Mind and Spirit, VII: Mind-Pictures
It stands that the Ainur do not so much differ in literal power so much as knowledge at this stage, with said knowledge being the grounds upon which they are compared.
Of course, this lack of knowledge isn't restricting beyond say their creativity, they can go beyond their given roles due to their free-wills afterall. Therefore, there isn't a restriction on their ability to influence/create all possible words (having the capacity even if not the knowledge seems acceptable judging by profiles like The Star-Maker).
"...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
"In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken." - Letter 212
Moreover, there isn't a true "power" difference in the "punch harder" way. For example, even at point-blank (relatively speaking on such a higher scale), none of the "lesser" Ainur were harmed by Melkor.
"But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery..." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
By this I was somewhat trying to differentiate the idea of literal power from knowledge. Ainur at this stage of their existence do not have a outright definition to their "might" beyond knowledge, yes. Indeed, this is why Manwë is mightier than say some Maiar.
"Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairlycomplete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds)." - Letter 200. - emphasis on fairly, Manwë comes as close as possible, no more than that.
But this doesn't seem to be power in the sense of "Goku's Kamehameha beats Vegeta's Galick Gun". Ainur at this stage cannot harm one another and can only overcome one another via "knowledge". Melkor overcame lesser Ainur with his discordant music, but no harm was done upon those who were against him despite the great power of the Musics.
Moreover, while knowledge limits what they can "create", it is only because they obey Eru's laws. When Melkor decided to become disobedient, he made something he was not taught, the discourse of Evil. This is in contrast to Manwë who naturally would never go beyond them. "...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
Therefore in this sense, knowledge can be used to say X Ainu is "mightier" as they possess more ability to create, but only because they obey Eru. Once Eru is disobeyed, Ainur can go beyond their knowledge and make whatever they imagine, just like a writer. It is essentially the limits of what they can imagine not output.
It's essentially that the Ainur are assistants to the author until one goes off on their own to become their own author... well not really as Eru cannot be equaled, but there you go.
Regarding High 1-A+, Letter 153, all writers create as per the “channels” provided by God, they can only operate as per what the Creator has already used, but within this framework they are utterly unbound except for the laws of contradiction. They cannot perform contradictory actions (as a form of logical omnipotence on a lower scale)
Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds,
but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is
required – Letter 153
Therefore, I have argued that there is no distinction between the type of sub-creators that authors and the Ainur are, with it being in the same letter that the two are equated and the Ainur given the title of the "highest created beings." Moreover, I have argued that knowledge is not a issue here, just as it is not for the Star-Maker (hence my usage of the comparison) as the limiting factor is truly the extent of an Ainu's knowledge, not power. They cannot even harm each other as they are equal in power from all appearances, being unable to even harm each other.
I'll note that I and Elbekarym had a few more exchanges after Ultima's response (not including my messages to Ultima in response to his High 1-A+ queries) but as neither of us got a response, I'll leave it with just this exchange. It was also just a lot of the same arguments presented prior to Ultima's response being repeated in a back and forth.
Moreover, at this point I'm pretty open to a compromise on "at least 1-A, possibly/likely/at most/etc High 1-A+".
Response: Regarding the R>F
"Now regarding the suggestion that the Ainur are of a "secondary quality" rather than a primary, I have stated this is a matter for another thread, but I really have to emphasise that it isn't a good suggestion.
Now, I will note that the grammar of Letter 200
"Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'."
Can be used to argue that the Ainur are from the secondary reality, but it can equally mean.
Eru gave the the Music existence as the secondary reality.
This reality is subordinate to Eru's reality
We call Eru's creality the primary reality
It is the same plane with the Ainur.
And of course it's a single line vs multiple that imply or assert Ainur as beings of the primary reality. We know they are from the primary reality as they are referred to literally be from it
"There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers. These take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered into the world." - Letter 181
"So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'subcreative' powers to certain of His highest created beings..." - Letter 153 (they are created beings, not subcreated beings like elves or humans of the Legendarium as noted below in another extract from Letter 153. Also, they are feigned angels of the real world, feigned because Tolkien can't be certain this is what "real" angels are like, but they are still meant to occupy that role)
"The Valar or 'powers, rulers' were the first 'creation': rational spirits or minds without incarnation, created before the physical world. (Strictly these spirits were called Ainur, the Valar being only those from among them who entered the world after its making, and the name is properly applied only to the great among them, who take the imaginative but not the theological place of 'gods'.) The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion." - Letter 212 (again, created beings and made before the world)
Of course there is also simply the matter of Tolkien's use of "language". When referring to a primary/secondary division, he has made it clear that he refers to the difference between realiy and fiction multiple times
"Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world." and "...satisfactions of plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is indeed usually at strife. This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it." and "* It is, I suppose, fundamentally concerned with the problem of the relation of An (and Sub-creation) and Primary Reality"- Letter 131
"But I do not see how even in the Primary World any theologian or philosopher, unless very much better informed about the relation of spirit and body than I believe anyone to be, could deny the possibility of re-incarnation as a mode of existence, prescribed for certain kinds of rational incarnate creatures." and "Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World"- Letter 153 (he discusses real theologians or philosophers here afterall)
Overall, it's just silly to attempt to bring the Ainur before their qualitative descent to an equal reality to the Legendarium. They are too distinguished and outright stated to be primary existences.
The crux is that the Ainur have one possible statement of being brought to an equal level as the narrative of the Legendarium, and even then, it can be interpreted in multiple ways. Multiple other statements emphasise they are from the "real" world compared to the Legendarium's setting.
NOTE: R>F isn't really the topic of discussion here, this is just in case staff gets curious on that topic too.
I'll note that I and Elbekarym had a few more exchanges after Ultima's response (not including my messages to Ultima in response to his High 1-A+ queries) but as neither of us got a response, I'll leave it with just this exchange. It was also just a lot of the same arguments presented prior to Ultima's response being repeated in a back and forth.
Moreover, at this point I'm pretty open to a compromise on "at least 1-A, possibly/likely/at most/etc High 1-A+".
Anyways, the “at least 1-A” shout is quite fine. The meaning of making a distinction between the writers and Ainur is a bit……weird per se.
So, I'm guessing that the knowledge portion is meant to fill in the missing portion for High 1-A+? In which, the Aniur are bounded by the laws set upon Eru over essentially the framework of the Cosmology, in which, he wholelly stands above. You said that that's the constraint, Eru, himself and that they're only limited as creators in so far as what Eru is willing to lend them the power to necessitate (whether it be direct or indirect limitations e.g. The music).
I still wouldn't consider it anything High 1-A+ per se even accounting if they were some sort of writers stand-in in the Primary Reality. There's still “metaphysical” ness that separates their existence as fictional which they already occupy a place in that fiction above the real, but in contrast to leaping into the real world. The problem is Eru is that real-world “God” and in the fictional sense he stands in for both, but I feel that sort of vision by Tolkien is always going to be metaphorical and not literal, if not then we’re risking a Dante-esque overlook on divine faith (I mean both were Christians and their work slightly resembles faith, but Tolkien to a lesser degree, of course).
The comparison relies too much on the stipulation that Ainur are only limited to their Creator’s will in far as to remove those limitations and they act as some sort of quasi-omnipotent creators themselves.
As much as the above portion could work especially if we dwell on the semantics behind Primary Reality, I think being a stand-in within the framework of the Secondary Reality is their role entirely. The rest in the Real World is where they frame the comparison that “if they were real” they be the author who has that Reality-Fiction control and are second only to the real-life God, whom Eru stands for in the same way Ainur stands in for him creating everything and they create lesser things in part of everything.
Also being “possibly/likely High 1-A+” isn’t like having a 0 hax in any form. High 1-A+ like 1-A in contrast to structures below is predicated on their existence, the former is on the logistic possibility or the very apex of the cosmological framework, and the latter being an ontological jump in the composition of one’s existence being qualitative. So, it’s one or the other unless it’s also a High 1-A+ hax with the original existence of Aniur being seemingly unbounded and only limited to a form of law of contradiction, but even if we frame it like that means that the lesser form isn't acting or participating in the hax as anything more than channels or agencies in which their “High 1-A+” forms act on them. I just think for now we can settle for “at least 1-A, likely far higher.”
The possibly/likely matter comes because it's debatable the extent to which Tolkien wanted the Ainur to be genuine stand ins for angels in his metaphysics. It's more so a compromise on my part to reflect the debatability of the tier or not.
Yes, Tolkien "feigns" if they are really like this or not, and this can be taken as them being pure stand-ins (which isn't a wrong way to look at it persay) but he "feigns" in relation to most things in his metaphysics because he himself does not 100% know how God and God's creations work. They are estimates of angels but that doesn't mean they are not meant to be angels. Regardless, the statements pertaining to them name them directly anyway in relation to Authors/Sub-creators, rather than a vaguer mention of angels.
Now, Ultima agreed with the notion that Authors in the metaphysics of Tolkien's work are High 1-A+, that was left as accepted.
"Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required" – Letter 153
And so the question remains if the Ainur are scalable or not? Certainly I say yes because Tolkien certainly conceives of them in their origin in such a light as not only fellow "real" existences (they are meant to be estimated conceptions of genuine angels much as Tolkien estimates God) and also the highest created beings.
"Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required" – Letter 153
When you put it like that the suchness of “self-imposed” limitations seems rather accidental to the writers since they can’t determine their finiteness, but it doesn't seem so accidental nor fully applicable to the Aniur, personally.
Yes, we can argue on the semantics behind it if the limitation is purely on Eru making them that way. However, I think their infinite potential (if they follow their system) if they weren't constrained (Which isn't accidental, but purposeful) is in a way applicable to everything even to the lowest of beings. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think their limits are in their power but rather their expression to use their power is under what Eru determines it to be, but in so far, as being fully limited because Eru says so isn't limiting their power, I don't feel. Morgoth didn't seem to be stronger, but rather just didn't limit himself in his creativity or knowledge, while you argue self-imposed limitations are purely on the knowledge aspect, I think it’s not so much so more power, if it were then it'd be external to their existence.
And so the question remains if the Ainur are scalable or not? Certainly I say yes because Tolkien certainly conceives of them in their origin in such a light as not only fellow "real" existences (they are meant to be estimated conceptions of genuine angels much as Tolkien estimates God) and also the highest created beings.
Well, like you said human comprehension of the divine will always be limited. So Tolkien would be purposeful in putting the Aniur that high and as analogs to the writers, but even writers in the same effect do have self-imposed limitations that are not so accidental since one’s own power would have a limit, you just have to test where the limit is (that's the portion where they don't know) and only God or in this case “Eru” without being established as a fictional representation, but Tolkien vision of God would fully not be constrained. Even if we remove Eru from the equation, the Aniur are to lacklustered to function as High 1-A+ just because they're under the principal of the highest order of creation.
If there were a medium, that's purely equating Aniurs as some sort sub-creator, then in a way the multiplicity of all possible worlds can't exist in multiple beings, so that throws High 1-A+ aloof.
When you put it like that the suchness of “self-imposed” limitations seems rather accidental to the writers since they can’t determine their finiteness, but it doesn't seem so accidental nor fully applicable to the Aniur, personally.
Yes, we can argue on the semantics behind it if the limitation is purely on Eru making them that way. However, I think their infinite potential (if they follow their system) if they weren't constrained (Which isn't accidental, but purposeful) is in a way applicable to everything even to the lowest of beings. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think their limits are in their power but rather their expression to use their power is under what Eru determines it to be, but in so far, as being fully limited because Eru says so isn't limiting their power, I don't feel. Morgoth didn't seem to be stronger, but rather just didn't limit himself in his creativity or knowledge, while you argue self-imposed limitations are purely on the knowledge aspect, I think it’s not so much so more power, if it were then it'd be external to their existence.
Well, like you said human comprehension of the divine will always be limited. So Tolkien would be purposeful in putting the Aniur that high and as analogs to the writers, but even writers in the same effect do have self-imposed limitations that are not so accidental since one’s own power would have a limit, you just have to test where the limit is (that's the portion where they don't know) and only God or in this case “Eru” without being established as a fictional representation, but Tolkien vision of God would fully not be constrained. Even if we remove Eru from the equation, the Aniur are to lacklustered to function as High 1-A+ just because they're under the principal of the highest order of creation.
If there were a medium, that's purely equating Aniurs as some sort sub-creator, then in a way the multiplicity of all possible worlds can't exist in multiple beings, so that throws High 1-A+ aloof.
Tbh, the justification has been gone over in the thread and it's almost been a year since I properly went through this so my arguments may be rusty. Anyway, Eru limiting them isn't an issue. Eru is the limit of possibility, his Únati ior laws literally define what is and is not impossible. Anything Eru decrees impossible is not a possible world (He is Tier 0 afrerall).
However, Ultima did find the justification for High 1-A+ to be reasonable enough, that wasn't what was really up for debate. Rather, the scaling matter was.
Furthermore, I am not arguing that the Ainur have self imposed limits persay. Rather that the limit is what they can conceive of. They are all more or less equal in power in their origin, given not even the lesser Ainur are harmed by the mightiest point blank. They cannot do something they are not aware of in the sense of they have the power to do X but not the knowledge to do X (hence the Star-Maker example). It's why it's fine for Authors and such to be High 1-A+ for being able to realise all possible worlds even if they cannot conceive of all possible worlds. Hence why all the Valar could have done what Melkor did. They simply had to undergo the same kind of shift in beliefs and knowledge.
Also, it wasn't an issue for there to be multiple High 1-A+ beings. They are specifically the type that can realise all possible worlds, not embody them. Heck, this was one of the first things I asked Ultima about.
Also, it wasn't an issue for there to be multiple High 1-A+ beings. They are specifically the type that can realise all possible worlds, not embody them. Heck, this was one of the first things I asked Ultima about.
The authors being High 1-A+ doesn't seem to be an issue to Ultima and I have no reason to believe otherwise.
I'm a little uneasy about how we would scale the Aniurs unless all the quotes you mentioned especially their primacy in Prime Reality to be very much applicable to them. If that were the case then they are likely High 1-A+.
The authors being High 1-A+ doesn't seem to be an issue to Ultima and I have no reason to believe otherwise.
I'm a little uneasy about how we would scale the Aniurs unless all the quotes you mentioned especially their primacy in Prime Reality to be very much applicable to them. If that were the case then they are likely High 1-A+.
All statements I used to support my argument regarding the Ainur are about them directly if memory serves me correctly. At the very least, the chief arguments are.
The Ainur as the highest created beings for example, comes in the same letter as the one regarding the Sub-creators being able to realise all possible worlds (and as explained, the difference between Authors and the Ainur seems to be in scale of knowledge and certainty that their creations will have life).
All statements I used to support my argument regarding the Ainur are about them directly if memory serves me correctly. At the very least, the chief arguments are.
