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Nasu: FTL? What’s that. What’s faster than light?
- Thread starter Wankbreaker
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@Wankbreaker
We need to sort out which profiles are part of which speed scaling chains for mass edits.
We need to sort out which profiles are part of which speed scaling chains for mass edits.
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Status update?
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Bump
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Here is my review of the OP. I will critique most of the points, and highlight the evidence for relativistic and MFTL+ scaling.
This does not address the Immeasurable speed rating for the top-tiers.
Here is Thia acknowledging that his opponent does not follow the laws of physics:
I found your statement is quite strange, since there are plenty of statements in the verse about how the laws of physics keep getting violated.
Otherwise, here is Machine God Ares and Romulus-Quirinus perceiving and reacting to a FTL attack from Chaos, with no mention of a particular authority.
What was the speed of the Machine Gods' interstellar fleet that crossed the stars by the way? Did it violate the laws of physics by any chance?
Here is Super Orion launching an arrow faster than anything the world has ever seen (interstellar star ships were seen), with Machine God Artemis perceiving it and attempting to shoot it down.
By the way, Nero doesn't know how she did. She said she was weaving past light (speed feat), the power of love must be involved, and if need-be she would travel back in time for her Master (something Tamamo does in her ending).
Also, it is weird that you specifically omitted Emiya who said he flexed his power to do it.
Earlier in the event, Hokusai cuts through lasers to prove she is worthy of being a swordmaster:
We also have Mash dodging lasers as well:
All around, excellent evidence for relativistic scaling.
Ciel mentioned that her body was on the brink of collapse at the time. Earlier, Ciel invested all of her magical energy on a Seventh Holy Scripture arrow. When that failed to take down Arcueid, she consumed Vlov's Principle to fuel her magical energy for three minutes before it burns out (about the time for Calvaria to charge up), saying that this is going to take a toll on her body.
Interestingly enough, Shiki later has a showing where he intercepts and redirects a Calvaria beam (4:29:26).
Musashi needed a buff to block a surprise LS attack. Afterwards, they fight the same LS people while they are bloodlusted without a buff.
They managed to hold their ground and fend bloodlusted attacks without a buff, and Musashi thinks she can defeat one of the twins on her own.
What further refutes the objection, is that an exhausted Caenis with no buff managed to block a similar surprise attack later on.
In the final fight, Holmes tags them with his magical light beams, and says that they can still be affected by light despite moving at near light speed. This confirms the speed scaling of Holmes' magical light beams.
In the second Lostbelt, Holmes notes that Sigurd has the reflexes to dodge his light beams:
Holmes' light beams would be comparable to other magical light beam users (Artoria's Excalibur, Arjuna, etc.), which provides even more supporting evidence.
This does not address the Immeasurable speed rating for the top-tiers.
I mean, if it is a Noble Phantasm, this means it is not restricted to the laws of physics, right?
| Mash There's no way we can travel like this. It's just not possible! Dr. Roman You'd think so, but it is. The laws of physics don't apply to things like a Servant's Noble Phantasm. |
Here is Thia acknowledging that his opponent does not follow the laws of physics:
| The boy judged it would be easy to dodge cannonballs that flew in a straight line after looking at their trajectory, but this naive thought didn’t survive being put to the test. Even after being fired, the shells are still Enkidu’s arcana. They may not be able to make full turns, but they still could take tricky trajectories that defied the laws of physics. The boy immediately determined this was the case and chose not to dodge but to completely neutralize the projectiles with his defenses. ~Fate strange/Fake, Volume 6 |
I found your statement is quite strange, since there are plenty of statements in the verse about how the laws of physics keep getting violated.
| The arrow shot by the mystery man plunged ahead like a laser, defying the laws of physics by never slowing or losing altitude. It had already traveled more than 20 kilometers. That alone was enough to prove that the archer was no human, and no ordinary mage. ~Fate strange/Fake, Volume 2 |
| Having noticed the spike in Enkidu’s magical energy, Berserker reached out for Enkidu despite Saber’s Noble Phantasm knocking her on her back. She enlarged her left arm, literally ignoring the laws of physics, and tried to crush all the harpoon parts and the countless chains attached to them within her now cedar-sized fingers. ~Fate strange/Fake, Volume 8 |
| Attacking from both sides and from above, arcing from every direction, Rider is not bound by gravity. ~Fate Stay/Night |
| His opponent is a Heroic Spirit. For the manifestation of a legends itself who has carved their name in the intervals of history and even throughout time, leaving themselves in the memories of people, such a small thing has no significance at all. What’s there, is just, a miraculous power that comes from having manifested like this, a defiance to the laws of physics, and an overwhelming destruction! ~Fate/Prototype, Volume 1 |
| Saber received Lancer’s 5 consecutively released lance strikes, with his own sword, direct from the front. His authentic invisible sword blade, deflects the 5 pseudo-invisible strikes with ultra-high speed. An immediate response to its super-heaviness and ultra-high speed. A treason against the natural laws of physics which is similar to taking a bullet that has been rapidly fired, but that is a Heroic Spirit, that is a being called a Servant who fights seeking the Holy Grail. ~Fate/Prototype, Volume 1 |
| A mutual slaughter where magi who wield mysteries and Heroic Spirits who can force even the most powerful of physical laws to be subordinate to them will kill each other, but…...Even though it is, she had proved that she could safely go out like this, and so on. However, these actions are far too dangerous. ~Fate/Prototype, Volume 1 |
| The two beasts which appeared while raising their roars, were certainly Phantasmal Beasts. In front of the two beasts which obstructed his path with their superior speed while killing the law of physics was――――Saber who wasn’t holding his sword. ~Fate/Prototype, Volume 4 |
| The scarf that he wore around his neck floated freely, with no regard for the laws of physics. Even while he was eating, it fluttered gently, as though rising upon the wind. Needless to say, there was no wind inside my apartment. ~Fate/Requiem, Volume 1 |
| With a powerful kick to his chest, she launched herself effortlessly into the air. The forces of gravity and attraction, which would later be codified as physical laws, seemed to have no hold over the girl blessed with heavenly might. She soared with breathtaking grace, a feather on the wind, putting ever more distance between herself and the man. ~Fate: Lost Einherjar, Volume 1 |
| The girl's defense against that curse is the instrument of torture, forged from lead and iron, that's tightly secured to her body. The iron armor creaks. Just as the vampire's corruption bends the laws of physics, so too is this armor woven from concepts that exist outside of those laws. ~Tsukihime -A piece of blue glass moon- |
| Conceptual Armament A weapon created to go beyond mere physical interference, and exert influence on concepts, natural providence, and space. For instance, something that nullifies ”eternal youth“ by overwriting it with the idea of ”natural lifespan.“ Ciel’s Seventh Holy Scripture contains the dual concepts of “reincarnation criticism” and “eternity without permanence.” By the way, after being killed by Shiki, Arcueid had at first mistakenly assumed that he must possess some kind of powerful conceptual armament. |
| Archer boldly smiled and placed his hand on the Vimana's helm. Immediately, the ark of light accelerated and evaded the missiles' attack with an elegance that Berserker's brute force control can never compare with. The legendary flying Noble Phantasm, crossing the sky at the speed of thought, has already surpassed the laws of physics. ~Fate/Zero, Volume 3 |
| Saber released the Invisible Air like an arrow directly in front of her, completely covering the body of the vehicle. Using the compression of the pneumatic umbrella to decrease air resistance to zero, the V-MAX was finally released from air resistance. The needle of the speedometer was already damaged and could not be used. Saber’s prana had caused the rushing vehicle to transcend the laws of physics; already the speed was more than 400 kilometers per hour. The pressure released by the magecraft pressed the rear wheel firmly against the cement; even when making turns, Saber did not release the throttle and turned the body of the vehicle round by force. ~Fate/Zero, Volume 4 |
| Along with her roar, the clump of air pressure—which had the momentum to sweep away an army of thousands and was supported by the release of prana – impacted heavily on the top of the stone slab; the slab, which looked as if it must weigh at least several tons, was easily flung into the air. It completely defied the laws of physics that the slender wrist of a young girl could carry out such a grand feat; this was the godly skill transcending normalcy that only a Servant could possess. ~Fate/Zero, Volume 4 |
| The front wheel had already moved onto the concrete slab which was giving out creaking sounds resembling screams. Then the body of the vehicle was propelled upward; the force of the madly spinning rear wheel suspended it in the air. Even the restriction of gravity had been broken, as it flew high into the air— ~Fate/Zero, Volume 4 |
| At times, ones awareness surpassed even the laws of physics. With an acuteness that rivalled magecraft itself, I could feel the nerves connected to my eyes and the part of my brain that governed them exploding all at once. "Princess of...Gold...!" ~Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files, Volume 2 |
| Magecraft that allowed bones to be controlled existed, and fell under the category of Spiritual Evocation. However, this was on a completely different scale. The bones that continued to surge forth surrounded the two of them in similar forms of that like a giant spider, a wolf, and a bird, yet seemingly violated the laws of physics all at once. “…!” Lord El-Melloi II fired a magic bullet at the mass of bone. Though he was only a mediocre mage, even he should have made an impact. However, the spider deflected his bullet easily. It only left a burn mark on the smooth, gray surface of its limbs. It didn’t take long for the controller of these creatures to appear from the depths. The strange familiars parted with each of their master’s steps, which sank deep into the sand as a result of its weight. ~Lord El-Melloi II's Adventures, Volume 1 |
The scan specifically mentions the law of conservation of mass.
Otherwise, here is Machine God Ares and Romulus-Quirinus perceiving and reacting to a FTL attack from Chaos, with no mention of a particular authority.
| A solitary beam fires from the eye, traveling faster than light. Only Quirinus and the crimson machine god could react in time. They both moved immediately to defend against the impossibly swift threat. Quirinus put up a Bounded Field to protect the Chaldeans... ...while the crimson machine god used his own body—a set of armor made from holy adamant steel, and reinforced with conceptual defense—to block the attack. |
What was the speed of the Machine Gods' interstellar fleet that crossed the stars by the way? Did it violate the laws of physics by any chance?
Here is Super Orion launching an arrow faster than anything the world has ever seen (interstellar star ships were seen), with Machine God Artemis perceiving it and attempting to shoot it down.
| The golden light tore through the divine blast and kept sailing on. Orion's Noble Phantasm raced towards its destination with speed and power unlike anything the world had ever seen. It was an arrow created solely for Artemis. An arrow fired out of his love for her. An arrow more powerful than anything. An arrow that would ignore all of Artemis's defenses, evade every unfair obstacle in its path, and find its way to her core with unfailing accuracy. |
Here is Gilgamesh doing this with actual speed without a warp drive:
By the way, Nero doesn't know how she did. She said she was weaving past light (speed feat), the power of love must be involved, and if need-be she would travel back in time for her Master (something Tamamo does in her ending).
Also, it is weird that you specifically omitted Emiya who said he flexed his power to do it.
| Archer: What. Master is in danger, that is enough for me to go beyond the impossible. Archer: In the first place, he is someone I will follow to the end of the universe. Archer: Alright----- here's the return ticket, receive it! Archer, he came for me......! And that dress is the Mythical Formal Wear we acquired in order to fight BB......! Archer: Ah, but it looks like I exceeded myself. This armor also doesn't have a name, the remains of the dreams of those who gave up are in it. |
Here is Katsushika Hokusai clashing with Okita J's NP at full power:
Earlier in the event, Hokusai cuts through lasers to prove she is worthy of being a swordmaster:
| Miyamoto Iori Well, that's perfect! Your swordmaster can handle this easy-peasy! Choices
Miyamoto Iori What? ...Ohhh, gotcha. I guess Hokusai's not quite at that level yet, huh? A real swordmaster keeps their mind as clear as a polished mirror, so they don't have any trouble handling even the toughest predicament... ...they could just cut through the lasers or will themselves to be lighter or something, but I guess Hokusai isn't quite there yet. Katsushika Hokusai Oh... Oh yeah!? I'll show you, missy! No Edoite worth their salt would take an insult like that lyin' down! Carmilla Stop! What do you think you're doing!? Katsushika Hokusai Hraaah! Who cares about lasers! If one sword won't do the trick, I'll just use all four! As for the floor... I gotcha. All I gotta do's take a page from Toto-sama's playbook and slip around like he does! I call it...Octo-Walking! Choices
Miyamoto Iori She sure is, partner! Sometimes, instead of hemming and hawing, you just gotta jump in with both feet and see what happens! Yeehaw! Katsushika Hokusai (Gasp, gasp...) There, I got it... Miyamoto Iori Way to go, Hokusai! You're really getting the hang of that four sword style! |
We also have Mash dodging lasers as well:
All around, excellent evidence for relativistic scaling.
Arcueid's power is variable to slightly surpass her opponent (Ciel even mentions this just before using Calvaria).
Ciel mentioned that her body was on the brink of collapse at the time. Earlier, Ciel invested all of her magical energy on a Seventh Holy Scripture arrow. When that failed to take down Arcueid, she consumed Vlov's Principle to fuel her magical energy for three minutes before it burns out (about the time for Calvaria to charge up), saying that this is going to take a toll on her body.
Interestingly enough, Shiki later has a showing where he intercepts and redirects a Calvaria beam (4:29:26).
Actually she only got the nanomachines after the first fight (nanomachines increased Mash's Ortinax's output from 60%-70% to a maximum of 90%).
Musashi needed a buff to block a surprise LS attack. Afterwards, they fight the same LS people while they are bloodlusted without a buff.
Humans must never defy gods. Dioscuri - CastorHumans must never commit sin. Humans. Foolish reeds who would prolong the great sin of Proper Human History. All of you must die. Haha. Hahahahahahahahaha! You're getting my hopes up, Father! Dioscuri - Pollux Hehe. Hehehehehehehehehe! You said it, Big Brother. Aphrodite Make it quick. Demeter Oh my... I was hoping to at least let them have some wine first. Europa Zeus has made his decision. Do not let them suffer. Make their deaths quick and painless, Dioscuri. Dioscuri - Pollux Did you hear that, Big Brother? We have permission now! Dioscuri - Pollux At last, you'll get to indulge in your favorite pastime: killing humans! Dioscuri - Pollux Since you're usually forbidden from doing so, this is your chance to really enjoy yourself! Dioscuri - Castor Oh yes, you bet I'm going to kill them! Watch this, Little Sister! I'm about to show you the full extent of my wrath! Dioscuri Die, humans! Mash ...Master! I managed to activate the Ortinax's emergency mode! Output is at sixty percent! Spirit Origin stabilized! Musashi Dammit! Dammit, dammit, dammit! These are the meanest gods I've ever met! They couldn't even wait until this damn headache wears off before attacking us! But if that's how it's gonna be, then that's fine with us! Right, Fujimaru!? Our opponents mean business, and they're more powerful than anything we've ever faced! What do you do!? Choices
Musashi You got it! One god destroyer, coming right up! When we're done, they won't know what hit them! |
They managed to hold their ground and fend bloodlusted attacks without a buff, and Musashi thinks she can defeat one of the twins on her own.
| Musashi (I could probably take out one of them if I wasn't worried about making it out of this alive, but not both...) (Ordinarily I wouldn't mind sacrificing myself to take them down, but that really doesn't seem like an option here.) |
What further refutes the objection, is that an exhausted Caenis with no buff managed to block a similar surprise attack later on.
| Holmes We completely exhausted our magical energy in our fight against Aphrodite, so our priority now is to recuperate. From there, we can plan our next objective and— Man's Voice Do you really think there will be a “next” for you? Swordfighter & Warrior ! Caenis It's you! Goddamn twin bastards! Choices
Mash The Dioscuri, the twin gods! Kirschtaria's Servant...!
Holmes Oh yes. If not for Caenis's spear, my head would be tumbling across the floor right now. ...I must express my gratitude for that. Fou Fo fou, fooou! |
In the final fight, Holmes tags them with his magical light beams, and says that they can still be affected by light despite moving at near light speed. This confirms the speed scaling of Holmes' magical light beams.
| Dioscuri - Pollux ...Are you all right, Big Brother? Dioscuri - Castor I'm fine. Mere magical energy light from an ordinary Heroic Spirit can never hope to match ours. Holmes The Dioscuri, gods of light. They may indeed move at near-light speed, but it seems they aren't capable of nullifying all forms of light directed at them. Does that mean they have openings we can take advantage of? As they say nowadays, the jury is still out. |
In the second Lostbelt, Holmes notes that Sigurd has the reflexes to dodge his light beams:
Holmes' light beams would be comparable to other magical light beam users (Artoria's Excalibur, Arjuna, etc.), which provides even more supporting evidence.
Last edited:
Fezzih_007
He/Him- 9,381
- 4,532
Here is my review of the OP. I will critique most of the points, and highlight the evidence for relativistic and MFTL+ scaling.
This does not address the Immeasurable speed rating for the top-tiers.
I mean, if it is a Noble Phantasm, this means it is not restricted to the laws of physics, right?
Mash
There's no way we can travel like this. It's just not possible!
Dr. Roman
You'd think so, but it is. The laws of physics don't apply to things like a Servant's Noble Phantasm.
Here is Thia acknowledging that his opponent does not follow the laws of physics:
The boy judged it would be easy to dodge cannonballs that flew in a straight line after looking at their trajectory, but this naive thought didn’t survive being put to the test.
Even after being fired, the shells are still Enkidu’s arcana.
They may not be able to make full turns, but they still could take tricky trajectories that defied the laws of physics. The boy immediately determined this was the case and chose not to dodge but to completely neutralize the projectiles with his defenses.
~Fate strange/Fake, Volume 6
I found your statement is quite strange, since there are plenty of statements in the verse about how the laws of physics keep getting violated.
The arrow shot by the mystery man plunged ahead like a laser, defying the laws of physics by never slowing or losing altitude. It had already traveled more than 20 kilometers. That alone was enough to prove that the archer was no human, and no ordinary mage.
~Fate strange/Fake, Volume 2
Having noticed the spike in Enkidu’s magical energy, Berserker reached out for Enkidu despite Saber’s Noble Phantasm knocking her on her back.
She enlarged her left arm, literally ignoring the laws of physics, and tried to crush all the harpoon parts and the countless chains attached to them within her now cedar-sized fingers.
~Fate strange/Fake, Volume 8
Attacking from both sides and from above, arcing from every direction, Rider is not bound by gravity.
~Fate Stay/Night
His opponent is a Heroic Spirit. For the manifestation of a legends itself who has carved their name in the intervals of history and even throughout time, leaving themselves in the memories of people, such a small thing has no significance at all. What’s there, is just, a miraculous power that comes from having manifested like this, a defiance to the laws of physics, and an overwhelming destruction!
~Fate/Prototype, Volume 1
Saber received Lancer’s 5 consecutively released lance strikes, with his own sword, direct from the front. His authentic invisible sword blade, deflects the 5 pseudo-invisible strikes with ultra-high speed. An immediate response to its super-heaviness and ultra-high speed. A treason against the natural laws of physics which is similar to taking a bullet that has been rapidly fired, but that is a Heroic Spirit, that is a being called a Servant who fights seeking the Holy Grail.
~Fate/Prototype, Volume 1
A mutual slaughter where magi who wield mysteries and Heroic Spirits who can force even the most powerful of physical laws to be subordinate to them will kill each other, but…...Even though it is, she had proved that she could safely go out like this, and so on. However, these actions are far too dangerous.
~Fate/Prototype, Volume 1
The two beasts which appeared while raising their roars, were certainly Phantasmal Beasts.
In front of the two beasts which obstructed his path with their superior speed while killing the law of physics was――――Saber who wasn’t holding his sword.
~Fate/Prototype, Volume 4
The scarf that he wore around his neck floated freely, with no regard for the laws of physics. Even while he was eating, it fluttered gently, as though rising upon the wind. Needless to say, there was no wind inside my apartment.
~Fate/Requiem, Volume 1
With a powerful kick to his chest, she launched herself effortlessly into the air. The forces of gravity and attraction, which would later be codified as physical laws, seemed to have no hold over the girl blessed with heavenly might. She soared with breathtaking grace, a feather on the wind, putting ever more distance between herself and the man.
~Fate: Lost Einherjar, Volume 1
The girl's defense against that curse is the instrument of torture, forged from lead and iron, that's tightly secured to her body.
The iron armor creaks.
Just as the vampire's corruption bends the laws of physics, so too is this armor woven from concepts that exist outside of those laws.
~Tsukihime -A piece of blue glass moon-
Conceptual Armament
A weapon created to go beyond mere physical interference, and exert influence on concepts, natural providence, and space.
For instance, something that nullifies ”eternal youth“ by overwriting it with the idea of ”natural lifespan.“
Ciel’s Seventh Holy Scripture contains the dual concepts of “reincarnation criticism” and “eternity without permanence.”
By the way, after being killed by Shiki, Arcueid had at first mistakenly assumed that he must possess some kind of powerful conceptual armament.
Archer boldly smiled and placed his hand on the Vimana's helm. Immediately, the ark of light accelerated and evaded the missiles' attack with an elegance that youBerserker's brute force control can never compare with. The legendary flying Noble Phantasm, crossing the sky at the speed of thought, has already surpassed the laws of physics.
~Fate/Zero, Volume 3
Saber released the Invisible Air like an arrow directly in front of her, completely covering the body of the vehicle. Using the compression of the pneumatic umbrella to decrease air resistance to zero, the V-MAX was finally released from air resistance.
The needle of the speedometer was already damaged and could not be used. Saber’s prana had caused the rushing vehicle to transcend the laws of physics; already the speed was more than 400 kilometers per hour. The pressure released by the magecraft pressed the rear wheel firmly against the cement; even when making turns, Saber did not release the throttle and turned the body of the vehicle round by force.
~Fate/Zero, Volume 4
Along with her roar, the clump of air pressure—which had the momentum to sweep away an army of thousands and was supported by the release of prana – impacted heavily on the top of the stone slab; the slab, which looked as if it must weigh at least several tons, was easily flung into the air. It completely defied the laws of physics that the slender wrist of a young girl could carry out such a grand feat; this was the godly skill transcending normalcy that only a Servant could possess.
~Fate/Zero, Volume 4
The front wheel had already moved onto the concrete slab which was giving out creaking sounds resembling screams. Then the body of the vehicle was propelled upward; the force of the madly spinning rear wheel suspended it in the air. Even the restriction of gravity had been broken, as it flew high into the air—
~Fate/Zero, Volume 4
At times, ones awareness surpassed even the laws of physics. With an acuteness that rivalled magecraft itself, I could feel the nerves connected to my eyes and the part of my brain that governed them exploding all at once.
"Princess of...Gold...!"
~Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files, Volume 2
Magecraft that allowed bones to be controlled existed, and fell under the category of Spiritual Evocation. However, this was on a completely different scale. The bones that continued to surge forth surrounded the two of them in similar forms of that like a giant spider, a wolf, and a bird, yet seemingly violated the laws of physics all at once.
“…!”
Lord El-Melloi II fired a magic bullet at the mass of bone. Though he was only a mediocre mage, even he should have made an impact. However, the spider deflected his bullet easily. It only left a burn mark on the smooth, gray surface of its limbs.
It didn’t take long for the controller of these creatures to appear from the depths. The strange familiars parted with each of their master’s steps, which sank deep into the sand as a result of its weight.
~Lord El-Melloi II's Adventures, Volume 1
The scan specifically mentions the law of conservation of mass.
Otherwise, here is Machine God Ares and Romulus-Quirinus perceiving and reacting to a FTL attack from Chaos, with no mention of a particular authority.
A solitary beam fires from the eye, traveling faster than light.
Only Quirinus and the crimson machine god could react in time. They both moved immediately to defend against the impossibly swift threat.
Quirinus put up a Bounded Field to protect the Chaldeans...
...while the crimson machine god used his own body—a set of armor made from holy adamant steel, and reinforced with conceptual defense—to block the attack.
What was the speed of the Machine Gods' interstellar fleet that crossed the stars by the way? Did it violate the laws of physics by any chance?
Here is Super Orion launching an arrow faster than anything the world has ever seen (interstellar star ships were seen), with Machine God Artemis perceiving it and attempting to shoot it down.
The golden light tore through the divine blast and kept sailing on.
Orion's Noble Phantasm raced towards its destination with speed and power unlike anything the world had ever seen.
It was an arrow created solely for Artemis. An arrow fired out of his love for her.
An arrow more powerful than anything. An arrow that would ignore all of Artemis's defenses, evade every unfair obstacle in its path, and find its way to her core with unfailing accuracy.
Here is Gilgamesh doing this with actual speed without a warp drive:
By the way, Nero doesn't know how she did. She said she was weaving past light (speed feat), the power of love must be involved, and if need-be she would travel back in time for her Master (something Tamamo does in her ending).
Also, it is weird that you specifically omitted Emiya who said he flexed his power to do it.
Archer: What.
Master is in danger, that is enough for me to go beyond the impossible.
Archer: In the first place, he is someone I will follow to the end of the universe.
Archer: Alright----- here's the return ticket, receive it!
Archer, he came for me......! And that dress is the Mythical Formal Wear we acquired in order to fight BB......!
Archer: Ah, but it looks like I exceeded myself. This armor also doesn't have a name, the remains of the dreams of those who gave up are in it.
Here is Katsushika Hokusai clashing with Okita J's NP at full power:
Earlier in the event, Hokusai cuts through lasers to prove she is worthy of being a swordmaster:
Miyamoto Iori
Well, that's perfect! Your swordmaster can handle this easy-peasy!
Choices
- Uh...
Miyamoto Iori
What?
...Ohhh, gotcha. I guess Hokusai's not quite at that level yet, huh?
A real swordmaster keeps their mind as clear as a polished mirror, so they don't have any trouble handling even the toughest predicament...
...they could just cut through the lasers or will themselves to be lighter or something, but I guess Hokusai isn't quite there yet.
Katsushika Hokusai
Oh...
Oh yeah!? I'll show you, missy!
No Edoite worth their salt would take an insult like that lyin' down!
Carmilla
Stop! What do you think you're doing!?
Katsushika Hokusai
Hraaah! Who cares about lasers! If one sword won't do the trick, I'll just use all four!
As for the floor... I gotcha. All I gotta do's take a page from Toto-sama's playbook and slip around like he does!
I call it...Octo-Walking!
Choices
- Whoa! She's actually pulling it off!
Miyamoto Iori
She sure is, partner! Sometimes, instead of hemming and hawing, you just gotta jump in with both feet and see what happens! Yeehaw!
Katsushika Hokusai
(Gasp, gasp...) There, I got it...
Miyamoto Iori
Way to go, Hokusai! You're really getting the hang of that four sword style!
We also have Mash dodging lasers as well:
All around, excellent evidence for relativistic scaling.
Arcueid's power is variable to slightly surpass her opponent (Ciel even mentions this just before using Calvaria).
Ciel mentioned that her body was on the brink of collapse at the time. Earlier, Ciel invested all of her magical energy on a Seventh Holy Scripture arrow. When that failed to take down Arcueid, she consumed Vlov's Principle to fuel her magical energy for three minutes before it burns out (about the time for Calvaria to charge up), saying that this is going to take a toll on her body.
Interestingly enough, Shiki later has a showing where he intercepts and redirects a Calvaria beam (4:29:26).
Actually she only got the nanomachines after the first fight (nanomachines increased Mash's Ortinax's output from 60%-70% to a maximum of 90%).
Musashi needed a buff to block a surprise LS attack. Afterwards, they fight the same LS people while they are bloodlusted without a buff.
Humans must never commit sin.
Humans.
Foolish reeds who would prolong the great sin of Proper Human History.
All of you must die.
Haha. Hahahahahahahahaha! You're getting my hopes up, Father!
Dioscuri - Pollux
Hehe. Hehehehehehehehehe! You said it, Big Brother.
Aphrodite
Make it quick.
Demeter
Oh my... I was hoping to at least let them have some wine first.
Europa
Zeus has made his decision. Do not let them suffer.
Make their deaths quick and painless, Dioscuri.
Dioscuri - Pollux
Did you hear that, Big Brother? We have permission now!
Dioscuri - Pollux
At last, you'll get to indulge in your favorite pastime: killing humans!
Dioscuri - Pollux
Since you're usually forbidden from doing so, this is your chance to really enjoy yourself!
Dioscuri - Castor
Oh yes, you bet I'm going to kill them! Watch this, Little Sister! I'm about to show you the full extent of my wrath!
Dioscuri
Die, humans!
Mash
...Master! I managed to activate the Ortinax's emergency mode!
Output is at sixty percent! Spirit Origin stabilized!
Musashi
Dammit! Dammit, dammit, dammit! These are the meanest gods I've ever met!
They couldn't even wait until this damn headache wears off before attacking us!
But if that's how it's gonna be, then that's fine with us! Right, Fujimaru!?
Our opponents mean business, and they're more powerful than anything we've ever faced! What do you do!?
Choices
- ...You need to ask? We fight!
- ...We fight back as hard as we can!
Musashi
You got it! One god destroyer, coming right up! When we're done, they won't know what hit them!
They managed to hold their ground and fend bloodlusted attacks without a buff, and Musashi thinks she can defeat one of the twins on her own.
Musashi
(I could probably take out one of them if I wasn't worried about making it out of this alive, but not both...)
(Ordinarily I wouldn't mind sacrificing myself to take them down, but that really doesn't seem like an option here.)
What further refutes the objection, is that an exhausted Caenis with no buff managed to block a similar surprise attack later on.
Holmes
We completely exhausted our magical energy in our fight against Aphrodite, so our priority now is to recuperate.
From there, we can plan our next objective and—
Man's Voice
Do you really think there will be a “next” for you?
Swordfighter & Warrior
!
Caenis
It's you! Goddamn twin bastards!
Choices
- The Dioscuri!
MashThe Dioscuri, the twin gods! Kirschtaria's Servant...!
- Are you okay, Holmes!?
HolmesOh yes. If not for Caenis's spear, my head would be tumbling across the floor right now....I must express my gratitude for that.FouFo fou, fooou!
In the final fight, Holmes tags them with his magical light beams, and says that they can still be affected by light despite moving at near light speed. This confirms the speed scaling of Holmes' magical light beams.
Dioscuri - Pollux
...Are you all right, Big Brother?
Dioscuri - Castor
I'm fine. Mere magical energy light from an ordinary Heroic Spirit can never hope to match ours.
Holmes
The Dioscuri, gods of light. They may indeed move at near-light speed, but it seems they aren't capable of nullifying all forms of light directed at them.
Does that mean they have openings we can take advantage of? As they say nowadays, the jury is still out.
In the second Lostbelt, Holmes notes that Sigurd has the reflexes to dodge his light beams:
Holmes' light beams would be comparable to other magical light beam users (Artoria's Excalibur, Arjuna, etc.), which provides even more supporting evidence.
You kinda late.
The CRT already got accepted.
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it doesn't hurt to give your own opinion and refute the argument
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In context, this is referring to Arash shooting an arrow attached to a slab that mash and fujimaru are standing on, rather than anything actually physics breaking.
In literature, stating that an action "defies the laws of physics" is a common a way to tell to the reader that a supernatural event is occurring. It is a narrative shortcut used to establish a sense of. It is meant to be interpreted as "this is beyond the capabilities of a normal human or conventional technology." It is not a literal declaration that the character can now ignore concepts like causality, momentum, or the speed of light at will.
For instance, Saber's V-MAX going over 400 km/h is described as transcending the laws of physics. I dont think I have to tell you that moving at 400 km/h is well within the laws of physics.
These examples you gave are left unexplained or extremely vague, and are referring to superhuman movements and speed, not actually breaking the laws of physics.
So, authority.
Extremely weak reasoning. Orion isn't even the fastest heroic spirit in his own myth. Achilles is.
This is the same exact scene as when he uses the warp drive. This isnt a refutation.
quoted from the OP:
It's time reversal.
This doesnt even say he used his own power. If every other servant here used time-reversal or warp-drives to travel back, would it not be deductively incorrect to say Archer is the odd one out?
How is this supposed to mean that they're equal in speed? The scene seems like she prepared herself to make a counter attack. The speed is what is described ass beyond physical limits.
Dont we have standards against using laser scaling willy-nilly?
Arcueids use of backup is described to be far different from normal, as she abuses it to give herself buffs far beyond the normal. Also, she adds the strength to her own.
It's described as "gently" falling, as opposed to earlier.
This was addressed in previous posts here.
The dioscuri say the light of a heroic spirit's magical energy doesn't hold a candle to their (actual) light. So clearly, they aren't light speed.In the final fight, Holmes tags them with his magical light beams, and says that they can still be affected by light despite moving at near light speed. This confirms the speed scaling of Holmes' magical light beams.
Dioscuri - Pollux
...Are you all right, Big Brother?
Dioscuri - Castor
I'm fine. Mere magical energy light from an ordinary Heroic Spirit can never hope to match ours.
Holmes
The Dioscuri, gods of light. They may indeed move at near-light speed, but it seems they aren't capable of nullifying all forms of light directed at them.
Does that mean they have openings we can take advantage of? As they say nowadays, the jury is still out.
In the second Lostbelt, Holmes notes that Sigurd has the reflexes to dodge his light beams:
Holmes' light beams would be comparable to other magical light beam users (Artoria's Excalibur, Arjuna, etc.), which provides even more supporting evidence.
Aoko's magical energy beams and bullets, which are accelerated to and fire at sub-light speed, are called the fastest in the world of magecraft.
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I have a scaling chain completed as to who places where, I just need permission to make mass edits.
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Already said my piece, at this point of time there is not point to subject myself to literary analysis on how performing feats via. "literally ignoring the laws of physics" and "force even the most powerful of physical laws to be subordinate to them" actually mean the opposite.
But just to confirm here:
Be honest, were you making things up?
This is the scene where Gilgamesh uses his Ship of Light (not a generic warp drive), and it doesn't show him flying unassisted through space..
Is this the scene you are talking about? If not, where is the other "same exact scene" you are referring to?
But just to confirm here:
Be honest, were you making things up?
This is the scene where Gilgamesh uses his Ship of Light (not a generic warp drive), and it doesn't show him flying unassisted through space..
Is this the scene you are talking about? If not, where is the other "same exact scene" you are referring to?
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Please detail what changes to which profiles will be made for the bot.
@Catzlaflame
We require your assistance.
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these are the type of statements you are using. Accelerating to 400 km an hour does not actually break the laws of physics, nor does firing an arrow over long distances.
Kiara didnt make them fly away, she teleported them. The inverse would be a ship that warps you back.
The fact that Kiara herself implies that moving FTL is impossible should say volumes, but....
Ah yes, an unrelated scene. Definitely got me with this one.
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So what is it? Did you make up an imaginary scene as an argument, or is there a related scene to be found?
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wankbreaker you should actually address shadows points
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BB didnt send Gilgamesh to the other side of the Galaxy?
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There's really nothing TO address.
"See? Similar looking scene of gilgamesh coming down, therefore you are wrong."
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I am not going to debate speed or how far someone was teleported. I am awaiting an answer to the question I asked on what the scene you are referring to is, and whether it was made-up as a counterargument.
As you stated, the Ship of Light scene with Kiara where Gilgamesh is not shown directly flying is "unrelated" when asked if it was the scene you were referring to, leaving two options: Either I missed the scene despite my familiarity with the game, or you are talking about a made-up scene.
As you stated, the Ship of Light scene with Kiara where Gilgamesh is not shown directly flying is "unrelated" when asked if it was the scene you were referring to, leaving two options: Either I missed the scene despite my familiarity with the game, or you are talking about a made-up scene.
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Then, I will not fall to whatever attempt at a premise trap this is, and conclude the topic.
The scene you showed where Gilgamesh wasn't surrounded by light/in the ship was with BB?
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Do you mean using the bot or just regular permission to edit the pages?
It should be fine to apply the changes now. I can assist in making the edits.
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Alright, I will do so.
Just for reference, all the Immeasurable and MFTL+ ratings should be changed to Rel for being comparable to Machine God Ares, who could react Chaos’s FTL authority that it fired from a few thousand kilometers up. However, I’m not sure how fast exactly Ares needed to be to block the attack, as he was already pretty close to Chaldea’s group.
The rest should scale off of this calc, for now.
Nasuverse: Hansa Slices Rubble to Dust
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Do we have links for the justification text?
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You could say the OP was not a Based Scaler of Neco, and that he never got to do 69
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Someone should probably close the thread so this can be done at some other point.
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Staff agreements applied.
Closing thread.
Closing thread.
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