[MCU] Possibly Controversial 7D Cosmology Upgrade

[Ptumri9]

Instead of Aleph-2, just say that there's an Aleph-1 amount of 5-D constructs. That's what it is anyway. Simple fix.

I mean... isn’t that what I’ve been trying to say? There’s an ℵ₁ number of 5D constructs (macro-timelines), each made up of an ℵ₁ number of 4D timelines. I thought the issue came from the fact that having ℵ₁ macro-timelines implies the multiverse contains an ℵ₂ number of timelines overall, and that kind of cardinality jump would require the multiverse to be High 1-B.

 

[Phoenks]

I mean... isn’t that what I’ve been trying to say? There’s an ℵ₁ number of 5D constructs (macro-timelines), each made up of an ℵ₁ number of 4D timelines. I thought the issue came from the fact that having ℵ₁ macro-timelines implies the multiverse contains an ℵ₂ number of timelines overall, and that kind of cardinality jump would require the multiverse to be High 1-B.

No. It would be aleph-1 multiplied by aleph-1. That's not Aleph-2.

Aleph-1 columns (multiverses) of aleph-1 rows (universes)

 

[Ptumri9]

No. It would be aleph-1 multiplied by aleph-1. That's not Aleph-2.

Aleph-1 columns (multiverses) of aleph-1 rows (universes)

Just to make sure we're on the same page: a macro-timeline is made up of ℵ₁ timelines, and there are ℵ₁ macro-timelines. That doesn’t imply there are ℵ₂ universes, right?

I guess Qaw misunderstood me, and my limited understanding of advanced math didn’t catch that.

 

[Phoenks]

Just to make sure we're on the same page: a macro-timeline is made up of ℵ₁ timelines, and there are ℵ₁ macro-timelines. That doesn’t imply there are ℵ₂ universes, right?

I guess Qaw misunderstood me, and my limited understanding of advanced math didn’t catch that.

Nope. It's like I said. That's just aleph-1 multiplied by aleph-1. The same as if I was to say "there are an infinite amount of multiverses each containing infinite multiverses"

 

[Ptumri9]

Nope. It's like I said. That's just aleph-1 multiplied by aleph-1. The same as if I was to say "there are an infinite amount of multiverses each containing infinite multiverses"

That’s what I’ve been trying to say all along
I think this was just a big misunderstanding

This means that the Multiverse is composed of an uncountably infinite number of macro-timelines, each containing an uncountably infinite number of timelines.

 

[Qawsedf234]

just say that there's an Aleph-1 amount of 5-D constructs. That's what it is anyway. Simple fix.

But the baseline for the constructus are the 3-A spaces aren't they? How can you separate the constructs from the array of universes?

EDIT: No wait I get you mean now. I was limiting my idea of sets to just universes when Aleph-2 would be a set containing all types of sets. So it would just be an Alpha-1 construct of a larger space which is where the higher rating would come from.

In that case yeah I guess its fine to have the multiverse be 5D+2. Makes the Watcher a bit weird I guess but people can have higher dimensional power.

 

[Ptumri9]

But the baseline for the constructus are the 3-A spaces aren't they? How can you separate the constructs from the array of universes?

EDIT: No wait I get you mean now. I was limiting my idea of sets to just universes when Aleph-2 would be a set containing all types of sets. So it would just be an Alpha-1 construct of a larger space which is where the higher rating would come from.

In that case yeah I guess its fine to have the multiverse be 5D+2. Makes the Watcher a bit weird I guess but people can have higher dimensional power.

Thanks a lot, Qaw. I’ll list you as agreeing.

 

[Ptumri9]

Nope. It's like I said. That's just aleph-1 multiplied by aleph-1. The same as if I was to say "there are an infinite amount of multiverses each containing infinite multiverses"

Thanks a lot to you too, Phoenks, for the help. Mind if I list you as agreeing?
How many more staff members should we wait for?

 

[ByArrow]

Thanks a lot to you too, Phoenks, for the help. Mind if I list you as agreeing?
How many more staff members should we wait for?

Since it's Tier 1, you need the agree votes of at least 3 staff members.

 

[ByArrow]

And I agree now

 

[Ptumri9]

Since it's Tier 1, you need the agree votes of at least 3 staff members.

And I agree now

Thanks a lot. I’ve listed you as agreeing.
When the CRT needs to be applied, can I just copy the source from my sandbox to speed things up, or does everything have to be done manually?

 

[ByArrow]

When the CRT needs to be applied, can I just copy the source from my sandbox to speed things up, or does everything have to be done manually?

Yes, you can copy directly from your sandbox.

 

[Phoenks]

When I get home I'll review this more thoroughly.

I have some concerns about the MCU cosmology. Mostly because there's a scene in Loki that makes it clear that the Temporal Loom is incapable of scaling for infinity when it comes to the Sacred Timelines.

That would mean it isn't actually branching out that much.

 

[LMalone22]

OP look good to me but this didn't made the watcher to 5-D+2-D and the multivese is 5-D+1D and GOD LOKI maybe 5-D+2-D or 3-D because he above the multiverse and the watcher he can resurrection the multiverse from dying?

 

[Ptumri9]

When I get home I'll review this more thoroughly.

I have some concerns about the MCU cosmology. Mostly because there's a scene in Loki that makes it clear that the Temporal Loom is incapable of scaling for infinity when it comes to the Sacred Timelines.

That would mean it isn't actually branching out that much.

That wasn’t the issue. He Who Remains revealed to Loki that the Temporal Loom was designed as a failsafe system, meant to protect only the Sacred Timeline in the event of uncontrollable branching. That’s why it couldn’t scale to infinity: it was intentionally designed not to.

 

[Ptumri9]

OP look good to me but this didn't made the watcher to 5-D+2-D and the multivese is 5-D+1D and GOD LOKI maybe 5-D+2-D or 3-D because he above the multiverse and the watcher he can resurrection the multiverse from dying?

I’m not sure what you mean. According to my model, the Watcher is 6D because he can interact with the entirety of the Multiverse. God Loki is 7D due to the additional time axis. The Multiverse itself is also 6D in structure.

PS: Can I list you as agreeing?

 

[darkphantom9805]

I’m not sure what you mean. According to my model, the Watcher is 6D because he can interact with the entirety of the Multiverse. God Loki is 7D due to the additional time axis. The Multiverse itself is also 6D in structure.

PS: Can I list you as agreeing?

That’s not possible Loki can’t be 1 dimension higher then the watcher that makes 0 sense

 

[Ptumri9]

That’s not possible Loki can’t be 1 dimension higher then the watcher that makes 0 sense

Why would that make no sense?

 

[darkphantom9805]

Why would that make no sense?

Because the TvA isn’t beyond the watcher or the watcher realm ? The observation plane is stated by Peggy and them to not be some normal place but a higher one they can’t even reach the plane but they can freely access the TvA and raid it but not the observation plane because the observation realm is higher then even the TvA and it’s rules there’s a reason why watchers can go anywhere the void TvA the multiverse because it’s below them

Nothing in verse supports Loki being 1 dimension higher then watcher Loki powers literally come from a kang variant

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Since it's Tier 1, you need the agree votes of at least 3 staff members.

One of them should be Administrator

 

[ByArrow]

One of them should be Administrator

Yes, I did not specify as the OP already had a agree vote from an admin.

 

[LMalone22]

PS: Can I list you as agreeing?

OF COURSE I'm agree and agree with darkphantom too Loki shouldn't above the watcher

 

[Ptumri9]

Because the TvA isn’t beyond the watcher or the watcher realm ? The observation plane is stated by Peggy and them to not be some normal place but a higher one they can’t even reach the plane but they can freely access the TvA and raid it but not the observation plane because the observation realm is higher then even the TvA and it’s rules there’s a reason why watchers can go anywhere the void TvA the multiverse because it’s below them

Nothing in verse supports Loki being 1 dimension higher then watcher Loki powers literally come from a kang variant

The TVA has an additional temporal dimension, though. On its own, the TVA is 6D, like the multiverse, but it’s +1D because of the additional time axis. Just because the Watcher saw the multiverse from the Void at the End of Time doesn’t mean it can affect the hypertimeline like Loki does.

If the Watcher can see the whole multiverse (like in the finale), that means he’s 6D... like the multiverse itself.

I don't know, I might be wrong, but this is how I see it. Feel free to correct me though.




PS:

I think something like this deserves a unique CRT because it's pretty controversial and long as well

Regarding this I’ve already said it could be better to have it in a separate CRT

 

[darkphantom9805]

The TVA has a higher temporal dimension, though. On its own, the TVA is 6D, like the multiverse, but it’s +1D because of the additional time axis. Just because the Watcher saw the multiverse from the Void at the End of Time doesn’t mean it can affect the hypertimeline like Loki does.

It can’t be higher then the plane the observation plane is explicitly called higher then the TvA and you do realize Loki power comes from a kang right ? And kang explicitly can’t reach the watchers because they aren’t strong enough or capable of doing so that’s because the observation plane is above it it isn’t some random place but a higher one that includes the TvA and the void space it’s above everything

If the Watcher can see the whole multiverse (like in the finale), that means he’s 6D... like the multiverse itself.

that doesn’t mean he’s capped at that tier and he can see more then the multiverse he can see everything the TvA and the void space all of it nothing at all suggests Loki could ever possibly be an entire dimension higher then the watcher there’s no evidence Loki could even hope to effect the observation plane or even reach in the only person to ever reach it was ultron who was said to nearly destroy everything which would include the TvA not even HeWhoRemains can reach it despite literally being responsible for Loki powers in the first place nothing HeWhoRemains Loki or anything anyone did outside of ultron has ever effected a watcher or the plane because they are beyond it

I don't know, I might be wrong, but this is how I see it. Feel free to correct me though.

I don’t see how Loki being an entire dimension above the watchers makes any sense the mcu makes it very clear watchers and ultron are the peak of the hierarchy ignoring Kevin etc

 

[Ptumri9]

It can’t be higher then the plane the observation plane is explicitly called higher then the TvA and you do realize Loki power comes from a kang right ? And kang explicitly can’t reach the watchers because they aren’t strong enough or capable of doing so that’s because the observation plane is above it it isn’t some random place but a higher one that includes the TvA and the void space it’s above everything

that doesn’t mean he’s capped at that tier and he can see more then the multiverse he can see everything the TvA and the void space all of it nothing at all suggests Loki could ever possibly be an entire dimension higher then the watcher there’s no evidence Loki could even hope to effect the observation plane or even reach in the only person to ever reach it was ultron who was said to nearly destroy everything which would include the TvA not even HeWhoRemains can reach it despite literally being responsible for Loki powers in the first place nothing HeWhoRemains Loki or anything anyone did outside of ultron has ever effected a watcher or the plane because they are beyond it


I don’t see how Loki being an entire dimension above the watchers makes any sense the mcu makes it very clear watchers and ultron are the peak of the hierarchy ignoring Kevin etc

The problem is that there's nothing to suggest the Watcher can affect the Hypertimeline. I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. It's already a bit of a stretch to scale the Watcher to 6D, considering there are multiple statements calling him 5D, scaling him to 8D is pushing it too far. It would be best if you made a separate CRT for that.

 

[darkphantom9805]

The problem is that there's nothing to suggest the Watcher can affect the Hypertimeline. I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. It's already a bit of a stretch to scale the Watcher to 6D, considering there are multiple statements calling him 5D, scaling him to 8D is pushing it too far. It would be best if you made a separate CRT for that.

There are statements calling dormammu 11d 3 or 4 of them in fact and we don’t scale him to that despite there are more statements of that then the are calling watcher 5d and being called 5th dimension means absolutely nothing

mxy the 5th dimension imp is from 5th dimension but is stronger then 5d like what kind of argument is that lol it could be called the 5th dimension but be 8d 9d 10d any dimension he could be infinite dimension or beyond beyond tiering but come from a place called the 5th dimension or be called 5th dimension because that’s just a name nothing more also existence doesn’t prove power that’s why most 3d characters can still have higher dimensional power so even if he was 5d he could have the power of any dimension higher as nothing caps him like that

Loki being an entire dimension higher makes no sense narrative wise the watchers and ultron tiers are the top of the hierarchy not Loki who got his powers from a kang

 

[Ptumri9]

There are statements calling dormammu 11d 3 or 4 of them in fact and we don’t scale him to that despite there are more statements of that then the are calling watcher 5d and being called 5th dimension means absolutely nothing

mxy the 5th dimension imp is from 5th dimension but is stronger then 5d like what kind of argument is that lol it could be called the 5th dimension but be 8d 9d 10d any dimension he could be infinite dimension or beyond beyond tiering but come from a place called the 5th dimension or be called 5th dimension because that’s just a name nothing more also existence doesn’t prove power that’s why most 3d characters can still have higher dimensional power so even if he was 5d he could have the power of any dimension higher as nothing caps him like that

Loki being an entire dimension higher makes no sense narrative wise the watchers and ultron tiers are the top of the hierarchy not Loki who got his powers from a kang

I'm just not fully convinced. For the sake of simplicity and keeping things moving, it would be better if this were handled in a separate CRT.

 

[Phoenks]

Watcher being 5-D is fine because the universes he watches over are all 4-D. It's only when all of them are put together that they extend into the scope of a higher-dimensional structure.

There's also no reason the Watcher should be above Loki whatsoever. Watcher is just looking over the universe. Bro claimed to be a protector yet I didn't see him anywhere when the multiverse exploded in Loki S2. Meanwhile my goat actually went out there and held all of time together.

Also you can't compare this to mr. mxy. The 5th dimension in DC Comics is just a name for the plane of imagination, which is less of a dimension and more of an ontologically distinct layer of reality where things below are practically seen as fiction. It's not the same as a mathematical dimension.

If you want to say that the Watcher has cosmic awareness that extends across the entire multiverse, then sure. You could upgrade that.

 

[Ptumri9]

Watcher being 5-D is fine because the universes he watches over are all 4-D. It's only when all of them are put together that they extend into the scope of a higher-dimensional structure.

There's also no reason the Watcher should be above Loki whatsoever. Watcher is just looking over the universe. Bro claimed to be a protector yet I didn't see him anywhere when the multiverse exploded in Loki S2. Meanwhile my goat actually went out there and held all of time together.

Also you can't compare this to mr. mxy. The 5th dimension in DC Comics is just a name for the plane of imagination, which is less of a dimension and more of an ontologically distinct layer of reality where things below are practically seen as fiction. It's not the same as a mathematical dimension.

If you want to say that the Watcher has cosmic awareness that extends across the entire multiverse, then sure. You could upgrade that.

Thanks for the clarification!

Also, have you started looking at the sandbox? It's not urgent, though. We're still waiting for another staff member to agree. Then, if I'm not mistaken, there's a 48-hour waiting period before we can implement the changes.

 

[darkphantom9805]

There's also no reason the Watcher should be above Loki whatsoever. Watcher is just looking over the universe. Bro claimed to be a protector yet I didn't see him anywhere when the multiverse exploded in Loki S2. Meanwhile my goat actually went out there and held all of time together.

Because he didn’t intervene lol and the infinity stones are literally stated to be capable of destroying the multiverse and recreating it so they can do exactly what Loki can do also Loki power’s literally come from a kang who is of no threat to watcher as Kang technically couldn’t even get to the observation plane cause it wasn’t strong enough meaning

Watcher > Loki = kang

Also you can't compare this to mr. mxy. The 5th dimension in DC Comics is just a name for the plane of imagination, which is less of a dimension and more of an ontologically distinct layer of reality where things below are practically seen as fiction. It's not the same as a mathematical dimension.

You actually can because it’s a name that’s all it is nothing more nothing less

If you want to say that the Watcher has cosmic awareness that extends across the entire multiverse, then sure. You could upgrade that.

Watchers sees everything including the TvA he literally interacts with the TvA and miss minutes and he can also see the void space because the observation plane is beyond it it’s beyond everything

 

[Phoenks]

Observation plane is not beyond everything it's just a plane of existence where you can see everything happening.

 

[darkphantom9805]

Observation plane is not beyond everything it's just a plane of existence where you can see everything happening.

It’s literally called a higher plane hence why not even kang technology can reach it despite the fact they can easily reach the TvA or anywhere else in the multiverse

 

[KaramcaS]

Because he didn’t intervene lol and the infinity stones are literally stated to be capable of destroying the multiverse and recreating it so they can do exactly what Loki can do

TVA/Void/End of Time is above Multiverse they are not the same

Loki power’s literally come from a kang

We dont have enough evidence for this

Watchers sees everything including the TvA he literally interacts with the TvA and miss minutes and he can also see the void space because the observation plane is beyond it it’s beyond everything

When did Watchers interacts with the TVA, seeing Tva or void doesnt make you above that. Do you have evidence for observation plane is beyond TVA and Void?

It’s literally stated beyond a higher plane of existence

from multiverse

Infinity Stones easily beats Watchers and TVA is above Infinity Stones

 

[Naeem0304]

We dont have enough evidence for this

I agree with everything else you said, but it was He Who Remains TemPad that caused Loki's Time Slipping (and HWR admitted to paving that road for Loki), so he wasn't wrong there.

So yes, "Kang" did cause that.

 

[Ptumri9]

Just a note from the FAQ page on VSBW:

• Simply stating that something is from a Higher Plane or a Higher Existence does not necessarily imply the existence of an extradimensional axis in relation to 3-dimensional entities or objects. Statements that something is "higher-dimensional" also need to be interpreted in context, as authors at times use the term figuratively.
  • Additionally, usages of “Higher Dimension” should be treated with scrutiny, as “Dimension” is often times used to refer to places, and not directions in space, and as such the term can easily be used in the same sense as "Higher Realm/Plane" and similar verbiage. Context should be used to determine whether it truly refers to increased dimensionality.

 

[darkphantom9805]

TVA/Void/End of Time is above Multiverse they are not the same

It’s not above they are outside it there is a difference there’s a reason why Peggy and co can raid the TvA and go outside the multiverse but don’t have the power to reach the observation realm because it’s a higher plane

We dont have enough evidence for this

HeWhoRemains literally tells Loki he gave him the powers lol you think Loki just magical had the power to become god all on his own ?

When did Watchers interacts with the TVA, seeing Tva or void doesnt make you above that. Do you have evidence for observation plane is beyond TVA and Void?

Immersive story watcher interacts with miss minutes so he’s aware of their existence Loki director says the watcher is aware of the TvA watcher sees everything and we see him exist the tree so he can easily access the TvA

from multiverse

Infinity Stones easily beats Watchers and TVA is above Infinity Stones

No from everything the TvA to the void included as Peggy and them can easily access the TvA and raid them for weapons but can’t reach the observation plane they say it’s not some normal dimension but a higher plane

they don’t easily beat and the TvA isn’t above the infinity stones either also not every infinity stone is the same so that’s irrelevant

 

[Naeem0304]

@darkphantom9805, table the Observational Plane/Fifth Dimension argument in here; my thread from April is the better place for that.

Btw, @Ptumri9, so just that I have everything about the upgrades right, the upgrade will put the TVA at 7D or 8D? (I heard you said 8D when talking with darkphantom, so I'm a little confused.)

 

[darkphantom9805]

Just a note from the FAQ page on VSBW:

They call it not some random dimension but a higher plane it’s very clear a higher dimension which is why they can travel to the TvA and anywhere in the multiverse but can’t reach the observation plane b

 

[Ptumri9]

@darkphantom9805, table the Observational Plane/Fifth Dimension argument in here; my thread from April is the better place for that.

Btw, @Ptumri9, so just that I have everything about the upgrades right, the upgrade will put the TVA at 7D or 8D? (I heard you said 8D when talking with darkphantom, so I'm a little confused.)

Sacred Timline: 5D
Multiverse: 6D
Observational Plane: 6D
TVA: 7D

According to Darkphantom, the Watcher is dimensionally superior to Loki, meaning he would have to be one dimension higher. But as I mentioned, that would imply the Watcher is 8D, which seems odd.

 

[darkphantom9805]

According to Darkphantom, the Watcher is dimensionally superior to Loki, meaning he would have to be one dimension higher. But as I mentioned, that would imply the Watcher is 8D, which seems odd.

Nobody said he’s dimensionally superior but that Loki isn’t dimensionally superior to him that is wacky in no world is Loki an entire dimension above the watcher