Super Galaxy Bros: Return of the Grand Stars

[JPTheGamer]

Yeah, unless you can prove that characters can wield the energy of the power star in the same magnitude, it would be an increase without a known factor.

Do you agree with "4-A casual attacks" and/or 4-A Grand Star, then? What's your say?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do you agree with "4-A casual attacks" and/or 4-A Grand Star, then? What's your say?

I'd disagree with an increase unless you can prove a UES or that they can generate black holes of that size when empowered

 

[JPTheGamer]

I'd disagree with an increase unless you can prove a UES or that they can generate black holes of that size when empowered

Okay...

We've already said Grand Stars classed as Power Stars within the game, just stronger, and Power Stars themselves are shown to generate black holes, so the Grand Stars’ survivability, functionality, and restoration capacity in the aftermath of collapses already scale them above the output of the black holes themselves.

In both Galaxy 1 and Galaxy 2, Grand Stars are used to reactivate world domes, operate machinery, and power Starship Mario, which travel between galaxies across entire star systems since the Grand Star energy is required for galactic navigation. World domes and ships can only traverse between galaxies with a Grand Star, and once enough Grand Stars are collected, new world hubs open up. In Galaxy 1, Grand Stars are used to create and stabilize Bowser’s entire constructed galaxy and removing them leads to collapse, as shown at the end of the game.

VS Battles rates characters 4-A who restore, withstand, or affect galaxy-level collapse—even if they don’t directly generate it. Grand Stars powering traversal, restoring collapsed constructs, and surviving after galaxy-scale collapse events mean they should meet UES conditions. If Power Stars can stabilize black holes and Grand Stars are superior, scalable, and required for traversal and post-collapse restoration across galactic distances, there’s no reason to disqualify them from 4-A scaling under VS Battles' own framework

 

[Qawsedf234]

If Power Stars can stabilize black holes and Grand Stars are superior, scalable, and required for traversal and post-collapse restoration across galactic distances, there’s no reason to disqualify them from 4-A scaling under VS Battles' own framework

So the thing is, we have an FAQ about power sources in relation to tiering

A: Statements regarding infinite power, infinite strength, or unlimited quantities do not automatically indicate an ability to produce an infinite amount of energy at once. For example, a power source that never depletes could have an infinite quantity of energy, but can't necessarily be wielded with infinite magnitude (not all at once). Statements involving "infinite power/strength" must be clearly indicative of magnitude to qualify for tiering, in order to avoid inflated ratings or inconsistencies in a story. Further, the hyperbolic nature of the phrase must be taken into consideration, where characters are prone to describing someone's power as infinite in a context where it is so great as to be insurmountable from their perspective, but not truly infinite in a manner relevant to their tier. If proven, however, statements of infinite strength would qualify for High 3-A or higher if evidence regarding a higher degree of infinity above baseline is established.

While you're not pushing for High 3-A, the root of it is the same. Being powered by something doesn't mean you can wield 100% of that power at once. You've listed things that the power star has done, but haven't given any indication that people can use similar levels of energy. Just being boosted by the item isn't enough for them to scale.

 

[JPTheGamer]

While you're not pushing for High 3-A, the root of it is the same. Being powered by something doesn't mean you can wield 100% of that power at once. You've listed things that the power star has done, but haven't given any indication that people can use similar levels of energy. Just being boosted by the item isn't enough for them to scale.

True, but this thread isn’t about Mario or any character using 100% of a Grand Star’s energy; it's about the tiering being discussed for the Grand Star itself, not for casual users being boosted by it. Grand Stars aren't merely passive batteries—they're actively used to power, sustain, and restore cosmic-scale infrastructure, such as Starship Mario, galactic domes, and gateways. We're not saying Mario "wields" the Grand Star's full energy output; we're saying the object itself outputs that power for large-scale cosmic effects.

Also, we aren't arguing for infinite energy, nor even for full energy access. It's based on observable feats from the Grand Star, such as sustaining cross-galaxy travel, reversing galactic collapse events (twice), and powering the creation and destruction of galactic constructs (e.g., Bowser’s galaxies)

In Galaxy 1, Grand Stars are used to build Bowser’s central galaxy; when removed, it collapses into a black hole. In Galaxy 2, Bowser grows in size by absorbing Grand Stars, then the space around him collapses into another black hole when defeated.

In both cases, Grand Stars remain active and are used afterward to restore cosmic balance.

This same logic is used to scale things like Chaos Emeralds in Sonic (even when users don’t always tap 100%), Power Rings in DC (despite Green Lanterns being limited by willpower), and Triforce pieces in Zelda. The artifacts themselves are scaled based on their output—not what the wielder uses in any one moment.

Again, this isn’t about Mario wielding 100% of a Grand Star’s power; it's about the Grand Star itself scaling to the 4-A calc through repeatable, observable feats like powering galaxy-to-galaxy infrastructure, surviving galactic collapse events, and restoring destroyed cosmic systems.

 

[SeijiSetto]

True, but this thread isn’t about Mario or any character using 100% of a Grand Star’s energy; it's about the tiering being discussed for the Grand Star itself, not for casual users being boosted by it. Grand Stars aren't merely passive batteries—they're actively used to power, sustain, and restore cosmic-scale infrastructure, such as Starship Mario, galactic domes, and gateways. We're not saying Mario "wields" the Grand Star's full energy output; we're saying the object itself outputs that power for large-scale cosmic effects.

Summary
Previously, I proposed bringing back the Power Star key for everybody. The whole objective of the Super Mario Galaxy games is to collect as many Power Stars as you can so you can face off against Bowser who is amped by a Grand Star. As I stated before, Bowser Jr. HEAVILY implies that the bosses who are refought are juiced up by The Grand Stars (which Power Stars should be similar to) and used them to obtain the form they take now. This should mean that the Grand Stars function in the same way that Power Stars do whenever users of them collect and draw power from them. For anyone wondering, yes, the Grand Stars are indeed classed as Power Stars within the game.

unless i've misinterpreted you, your OP says otherwise

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

unless i've misinterpreted you, your OP says otherwise

He mentioned that was what a previously rejected thread had. Otherwise, he mentions implications of various bosses getting big juices but later conceded later in thread about a lack of evidence. But still wishes to propose Grand Stars at least having the power.

 

[Cropfist]

I disagree with this.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I disagree with this.

Why?

 

[SeijiSetto]

He mentioned that was what a previously rejected thread had. Otherwise, he mentions implications of various bosses getting big juices but later conceded later in thread about a lack of evidence. But still wishes to propose Grand Stars at least having the power.

that's not the only thing the OP says
the part of the OP literally titled "Proposal" says right there, he wants to give the characters keys for power stars, even if its just bowser, yoshi and the bros.
since that is the case, qawsedf's issues in regards to scaling them to the full power of the star if they aren't using its whole power at once remain

 

[Dust_Collector]

True, but this thread isn’t about Mario or any character using 100% of a Grand Star’s energy; it's about the tiering being discussed for the Grand Star itself, not for casual users being boosted by it. Grand Stars aren't merely passive batteries—they're actively used to power, sustain, and restore cosmic-scale infrastructure, such as Starship Mario, galactic domes, and gateways. We're not saying Mario "wields" the Grand Star's full energy output; we're saying the object itself outputs that power for large-scale cosmic effects.

None of that is "cosmic-scale infrastructure". Starship Mario is like a few hundred meters in size and only travels across galaxies, the Galactic Domes and Gateways only allow for traversal of someone to other galaxies, they aren't creating or sustaining anything galactic that's just being able to move a below average sized human or a decently large spaceship across space.

If you're gonna try and justify cosmic level tiering for Grand Stars please just use stuff that can actually be applied to AP.

Again, this isn’t about Mario wielding 100% of a Grand Star’s power; it's about the Grand Star itself scaling to the 4-A calc through repeatable, observable feats like powering galaxy-to-galaxy infrastructure, surviving galactic collapse events, and restoring destroyed cosmic systems.

Dude the 4-A calc isn't very useful since there's nothing even implying that the black hole in the background of World 6 was made by a Grand Star, it just seems to be there naturally. You're better off trying to maybe calc that black hole at the end of the first galaxy game (Although even then scaling that to a level of output that Bowser can use for his attacks might still be iffy) and/or a calc for the black hole he summons during the last phase of his final boss fight in the second game.

 

[JPTheGamer]

None of that is "cosmic-scale infrastructure". Starship Mario is like a few hundred meters in size and only travels across galaxies, the Galactic Domes and Gateways only allow for traversal of someone to other galaxies, they aren't creating or sustaining anything galactic that's just being able to move a below average sized human or a decently large spaceship across space.

If you're gonna try and justify cosmic level tiering for Grand Stars please just use stuff that can actually be applied to AP.

That misrepresents the point. The Grand Stars’ value doesn’t lie in moving a single person or ship — it's about what they're shown powering and stabilizing:

• Starship Mario and the Comet Observatory can traverse across multiple galaxies, which is impossible without Grand Stars.
• World domes literally shut down and become inaccessible unless Grand Stars are restored.
• They unlock access to entire galactic sectors (Worlds 1–6 in Galaxy 2) — that is spatial restructuring, not just "teleportation of a human."

This is applicable to AP, because the Grand Star powers the entire range of space needed to travel between galaxies — which requires overcoming gravitational boundaries, temporal warping, and cosmic distances.

In Galaxy 1, Grand Stars anchor Bowser’s constructed galaxy, and removing them causes spatial collapse — that’s AP by structural output, not just convenience.

This is analogous to how VS Battles rates other space-warping mechanisms like Boom Tubes, Rainbow Bridges, or Triforce-powered creations — if the structure fails without the power source, the AP scales to that effect.

Dude the 4-A calc isn't very useful since there's nothing even implying that the black hole in the background of World 6 was made by a Grand Star, it just seems to be there naturally. You're better off trying to maybe calc that black hole at the end of the first galaxy game (Although even then scaling that to a level of output that Bowser can use for his attacks might still be iffy) and/or a calc for the black hole he summons during the last phase of his final boss fight in the second game.

Nobody is proposing a 4-A calc based solely on World 6’s background. It was brought up as context — the real feats are the black hole collapses in Galaxy 1 and 2

In Galaxy 1, Bowser’s final galaxy collapses into a massive black hole after Grand Star removal, implying the Grand Stars were anchoring that system. The Grand Star is recovered before the collapse — and survives and functions afterward. This supports the idea that Grand Stars can contain and restore after galactic collapse, placing their durability and energy influence above the black hole’s AP.

In Galaxy 2, Bowser becomes planet-sized via GrandStar energy and generates a gravitational collapse upon defeat. The battle ends with a massive black hole engulfing the area. Mario and Peach are saved, and the Grand Star appears post-collapse, fully intact and capable of powering cosmic transport.

If you’re asking for a calc-worthy black hole feat tied to Grand Star events, this is consistent, repeatable (in both games), and directly shows the Grand Star scaling above a gravitational collapse event.

 

[JPTheGamer]

that's not the only thing the OP says
the part of the OP literally titled "Proposal" says right there, he wants to give the characters keys for power stars, even if its just bowser, yoshi and the bros.
since that is the case, qawsedf's issues in regards to scaling them to the full power of the star if they aren't using its whole power at once remain

Yes, the thread is arguing for returning the Grand Stars, but it also contains two proposals: one for Grand Stars themselves to be rated 4-A based on their repeatable cosmic feats, and another optional discussion about which characters scale to that level when visibly empowered by them.

No one is arguing Mario or Yoshi should casually scale to Grand Stars without context. But Bowser, when empowered, has multiple feats involving cosmic collapse and galaxy construction—so situational scaling is valid. Even if characters don’t use 100% of the item’s energy, we routinely scale them to their feats derived from such power sources (Chaos Emeralds, Lantern Rings, Triforce, etc.).

The Grand Star’s tier should stand on its own merits, and empowered characters can be scaled when specific feats justify it—not automatically.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Bump?

 

[Qawsedf234]

But still wishes to propose Grand Stars at least having the power.

The Grand Stars themselves having the power, I think, is alright. Since they do empower, sustain, and perform those feats.

This does not mean I agree with the proposal of giving characters a Grand Star or Power Star key, just that the star itself would be fine for those rating I guess.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[JPTheGamer]

The Grand Stars themselves having the power, I think, is alright. Since they do empower, sustain, and perform those feats.

This does not mean I agree with the proposal of giving characters a Grand Star or Power Star key, just that the star itself would be fine for those rating I guess.

You agree with 4-A Grand Stars, then?

 

[Dust_Collector]

I still don't know why 4-A specifically is being brought up for the Grand Stars rating without new calcs to back it up. The black holes we know a Grand Star can actually create (The one at the end of SMG and the one Bowser makes in SMG2) don't seem to be even close to the size of the black hole in W6 that got 4-A results (Neither of them look to reach the size of a galaxy let alone being bigger than multiple like the W6 one) so we could be looking at a lower rating.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I still don't know why 4-A specifically is being brought up for the Grand Stars rating without new calcs to back it up. The black holes we know a Grand Star can actually create (The one at the end of SMG and the one Bowser makes in SMG2) don't seem to be even close to the size of the black hole in W6 that got 4-A results (Neither of them look to reach the size of a galaxy let alone being bigger than multiple like the W6 one) so we could be looking at a lower rating.

Visual size isn’t the standard for AP — output and consequenced are. The black holes caused in Galaxy 1 and 2 are tied directly to the Grand Stars’ removal or misuse, resulting in collapses of artificial galaxies or spatial constructs.

More importantly, they survive and reverse these collapses, meaning their durability and energy utility scales to the black hole's AP. That’s a stronger basis for 4-A than just referencing the W6 background black hole, and fits VS Battles precedent for output-based tiering.

Other characters and items in VS Battles are scaled based on energy feats rather than just visuals; Sonic’s Super Forms for example don’t always generate universal visuals, yet they scale to universal threats due to consistent lore/energy scaling.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Visual size isn’t the standard for AP — output and consequenced are. The black holes caused in Galaxy 1 and 2 are tied directly to the Grand Stars’ removal or misuse, resulting in collapses of artificial galaxies or spatial constructs.

More importantly, they survive and reverse these collapses, meaning their durability and energy utility scales to the black hole's AP. That’s a stronger basis for 4-A than just referencing the W6 background black hole, and fits VS Battles precedent for output-based tiering.

Yeah but the artifical galaxy it collapes in SMG1 is a few km in size so just the act of it being collapsed isn't getting cosmic results and we have no idea what even gets affected by Bowsers black hole during his final boss fight in SMG2 besides the red misty area his throne room is floating, so in those cases we'd have to go with their size to calc their AP.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Yeah but the artifical galaxy it collapes in SMG1 is a few km in size so just the act of it being collapsed isn't getting cosmic results and we have no idea what even gets affected by Bowsers black hole during his final boss fight in SMG2 besides the red misty area his throne room is floating, so in those cases we'd have to go with their size to calc their AP.

Wrong. The artificial galaxy in SMG1 isn’t just a small floating platform that's "a few km in size" — it’s a star system placed at the center of the universe containing numerous surrounding stars, orbiting planetoids, and energy fields, many of which vanish once the collapse begins.

Visual minimalism is common in Mario Galaxy to avoid clutter — but context still supports cosmic scale:

The black hole consumes light, surrounding celestial bodies, and even Peach’s Castle, which was pulled into space from a different dimension. The Lumas sacrifice themselves to reverse a cosmic collapse, and Rosalina says "stars are reborn", not “repaired.”

Likewise, Bowser’s black hole in Galaxy 2 marks the destruction of his final galaxy-scale construct — followed by Mario and Peach drifting in empty space and the Grand Star restoring order. His final collapse isn’t just “Red Mist”; he grows larger than entire planetoids, has stars orbiting him, and creates a black hole that begins pulling in mass around the battlefield.

These aren’t just visual gimmicks — they’re cosmic-scale system failures and restorations that Grand Stars consistently anchor and survive. That matches 4-A output under VS Battles’ own standards, regardless of how big the objects look. VS Battles scales energy output based on the effect of a feat and whether the action destroys, restores, or resists galactic systems — not whether it “looks” big. Examples of this include the Triforce recreating Hyrule and the Chaos Emeralds scale to multiversal threats despite minimalist visuals.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Wrong. The artificial galaxy in SMG1 isn’t just a small floating platform that's "a few km in size" — it’s a star system placed at the center of the universe containing numerous surrounding stars, orbiting planetoids, and energy fields, many of which vanish once the collapse begins.

The only thing that is immediately affected by the Grand Star being is the small star Bowser ends up on after beaten by Mario (Which off topic how tf did he even end up there he was knocked into the main small star he fought Mario on), everything else remains perfectly stable it's only that specific star exploding and becoming a black hole. I can see maybe all those distant stars being dragged into black hole which can net nice results but it's hard to tell given the effect for the black hole appearing is just it fading into view in front of the background.

Likewise, Bowser’s black hole in Galaxy 2 marks the destruction of his final galaxy-scale construct — followed by Mario and Peach drifting in empty space and the Grand Star restoring order. His final collapse isn’t just “Red Mist”; he grows larger than entire planetoids, has stars orbiting him, and creates a black hole that begins pulling in mass around the battlefield.

Is his construct ever said or implied to be galaxy sized? Is there also any iidication that the Grand Star recreated all those stars instead of the two of them just ending up in another location, Mario gets flung so far around from the platform near Bowser's throne that it's not even visible anymore (The platform remains completely intact when Bowser summons the black hole so it not being visible can't be from it being destroyed)

Bowsers size also isn't notable here given he's no bigger than his usual giant sizes. He doesn't have stars orbit him and if he did those would be some tiny stars given he's building sized. Unless you're referring to the white streaks in the background, which tbh I didn't notice before (I've only recently gotten a new laptop so before I was viewing the videos of the boss fight on my shitty phone lol). I think those being distant stars being dragged into it could be fine.

These aren’t just visual gimmicks — they’re cosmic-scale system failures and restorations that Grand Stars consistently anchor and survive. That matches 4-A output under VS Battles’ own standards, regardless of how big the objects look

4-A isn't the immediate tier to slap onto something for things like this, cosmic scale varies heavily depending on the size of the star systems or galaxies we're dealing with it doesn't default to 4-A specifically.

Examples of this include the Triforce recreating Hyrule and the Chaos Emeralds scale to multiversal threats despite minimalist visuals.

I don't know why you're bringing up other verses like this when nobody is disagreeing with the Grand Stars scaling to their own feats? It's just what tier it'd be specifically and how much of it Bowser can scale to when he's empowered by one that's in contention.

 

[JPTheGamer]

The only thing that is immediately affected by the Grand Star being is the small star Bowser ends up on after beaten by Mario (Which off topic how tf did he even end up there he was knocked into the main small star he fought Mario on), everything else remains perfectly stable it's only that specific star exploding and becoming a black hole. I can see maybe all those distant stars being dragged into black hole which can net nice results but it's hard to tell given the effect for the black hole appearing is just it fading into view in front of the background.

That “small star” isn’t isolated — the entire region is a composite structure suspended in space by Grand Star energy.

The cutscene begins with the Grand Star pulled from the machine, followed by the entire construct beginning to warp and distort. Rosalina’s narration outright states that “the universe will collapse” as a consequence, not “a single star.”

The event is not localized. The black hole visibly pulls in the light of the skybox, and Peach’s Castle — which was taken from another world — is caught in the gravitational wave.

Is his construct ever said or implied to be galaxy sized? Is there also any iidication that the Grand Star recreated all those stars instead of the two of them just ending up in another location, Mario gets flung so far around from the platform near Bowser's throne that it's not even visible anymore (The platform remains completely intact when Bowser summons the black hole so it not being visible can't be from it being destroyed)

Bowsers size also isn't notable here given he's no bigger than his usual giant sizes. He doesn't have stars orbit him and if he did those would be some tiny stars given he's building sized. Unless you're referring to the white streaks in the background, which tbh I didn't notice before (I've only recently gotten a new laptop so before I was viewing the videos of the boss fight on my shitty phone lol). I think those being distant stars being dragged into it could be fine.

We don’t need explicit “galaxy-sized” text if the infrastructure serves a galactic function. Galaxy 2’s final battle takes place at the culmination of Bowser’s conquest, which involves Grand Stars, Starship Mario, and galaxy-to-galaxy navigation.

Bowser enlarges to dwarf planetoids, and has white orbital streaks that resemble stars or fragments being pulled toward him, implying a cosmic-level event.

The Grand Star returns after the black hole collapses, implying restoration — just like Galaxy 1’s ending.

4-A isn't the immediate tier to slap onto something for things like this, cosmic scale varies heavily depending on the size of the star systems or galaxies we're dealing with it doesn't default to 4-A specifically.

That’s true — but repeatable, observable feats are what VS Battles uses for 4-A:

In Galaxy 1, Grand Star powers a machine keeping a galaxy-scale construct (the center of the universe) from collapsing.

In Galaxy 2, Grand Star appears after Bowser’s black hole destroys his last cosmic base, restoring the region.

In both cases, the Grand Star anchors, stabilizes, and survives these events — a tiering standard accepted in other verses.

If collapse and restoration of multiple star systems or cosmic zones is depicted twice in cutscenes — and the Grand Star survives or reverses both — this is scalable energy output worthy of 4-A under standard system rules.

I don't know why you're bringing up other verses like this when nobody is disagreeing with the Grand Stars scaling to their own feats? It's just what tier it'd be specifically and how much of it Bowser can scale to when he's empowered by one that's in contention.

The comparison is not about story — it’s about VS Battles methodology.

Triforce and Chaos Emeralds receive cosmic/low multiversal tiers despite stylized, minimalistic visuals because the narrative and function indicate cosmic consequences.

In the same sense, Grand Stars are shown stabilizing galaxy-level machines and enabling intergalactic travel — that’s repeatable narrative usage, not just headcanon.

If the same logic that applies to other minimalist visual feats applies here, consistency demands Grand Stars be treated the same under VSB's guidelines.

I'm gonna call it a night for now. Be back tomorrow.

 

[Dust_Collector]

That “small star” isn’t isolated — the entire region is a composite structure suspended in space by Grand Star energy.

Ok but my point was that said star was the literally only thing immeadially affected by the loss of the Grand Star, nothing else began collapsing like that, it was just that dinky lil' star. Feats involving something being destroyed due to losing their power source depends on how quickly they collase after losing it (See requirement 3 of our stablization feats standards). Given everything except that one city block sized star was fine and even that star took nearly 2 minutes before fully collapsing.

The cutscene begins with the Grand Star pulled from the machine, followed by the entire construct beginning to warp and distort. Rosalina’s narration outright states that “the universe will collapse” as a consequence, not “a single star.”

Genuine question but what do you mean by "the entire construct beginning to warp and distort"? If it's just the small sun Bowser stands on that blows up then refer to what I just wrote above, can't imagine it means anything beyond that since nothing else gets distorted or anything until the black hole happens.

Honestly in regards to the galaxy 1 black hole specifically are we sure the Grand Star was holding something like that back in the first place? Given it only appears after that small sun explodes I'm pretty sure the intent here is the black hole being formed in the same way they tend to irl instead of being a product of the Grand Star being removed.

We don’t need explicit “galaxy-sized” text if the infrastructure serves a galactic function. Galaxy 2’s final battle takes place at the culmination of Bowser’s conquest, which involves Grand Stars, Starship Mario, and galaxy-to-galaxy navigation.

None of that makes it galaxy sized. Having artifacts that can potentially cause galactic level events doesn't mean anything for size, that's just the power said artifacts can produce don't need a galaxy sized fortress to make use of that. Starship Mario is the size of a building so no idea why that's being brought up, and lastly PLEASE stop bringing up the Grand Stars allowing spaceships to travel across galaxies as anything even remotely related to AP. If you were arguing an item was, I dunno, country level, would you use the fact said item powered a car and let it drive across the country as evidence for it being country level?

Bowser enlarges to dwarf planetoids, and has white orbital streaks that resemble stars or fragments being pulled toward him, implying a cosmic-level event.

Like I agree it can imply a cosmic-level event if we accept the streaks as stars, but Bowsers size has nothing to do with it lmao. You're overselling how big he actually is, the dude is the size of a building.

In Galaxy 1, Grand Star powers a machine keeping a galaxy-scale construct (the center of the universe) from collapsing.

Like the first part of my post, keeping something from collasping doesn't mean it scales 1 to 1 with it's destruction if the collapse happens overtime. Since you've brought up Zelda several times, it's why we don't use the Triforce keeping the universe from collapsing as justification for it's own AP. Lorule lost their Triforce for ages and yet in all the time it was gone the planet, while in dire shape, hadn't fully collapsed by the time A Link Between Worlds happens.

All we see after the Grand Star gets removed is that one star crumbling apart and exploding, everything else doesn't even so much as shake. Even assuming the star Bowser was one is a full sized one it could get nice results but not 4-A.

In Galaxy 2, Grand Star appears after Bowser’s black hole destroys his last cosmic base, restoring the region.

Like I mentioned above, we're gonna need something really concrete to say Bowsers base is the size of a galaxy. We can't work on assumptions like it being the culmination of his conquest or whatever.

In both cases, the Grand Star anchors, stabilizes, and survives these events — a tiering standard accepted in other verses.

It's not exactly smiled upon to bring up other verses for upgrades or downgrades of other series. Other series might have better justifications for their tiering than Mario might do (Like if another series has an item that sustains a galaxy but said galaxy instantly collapsed into nothing as soon as the item was gone that's a lot different to constructs remaining intact for a while when a Grand Star is removed from them. Or maybe their ratings aren't legit and don't meet the actual standards for tiering to be that high.

The comparison is not about story — it’s about VS Battles methodology.

Triforce and Chaos Emeralds receive cosmic/low multiversal tiers despite stylized, minimalistic visuals because the narrative and function indicate cosmic consequences.

In the same sense, Grand Stars are shown stabilizing galaxy-level machines and enabling intergalactic travel — that’s repeatable narrative usage, not just headcanon.

If the same logic that applies to other minimalist visual feats applies here, consistency demands Grand Stars be treated the same under VSB's guidelines.

Nobody was bringing up any comparisons about story dude not sure what to say about that one. Already said my piece about bringing up other verses. Same with stablization feats and intergalactic travel.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Anyway I think we really need to heed armors advice and make a new CRT, the original reasons for the upgrade have changed (Like how now the rating we're gunning for is 4-A and not 3-C, the calc for the W6 black hole was brought up halfway through but nothing seems to link it to the Grand Stars, etc...) and how a lot of these comments are large walls of text going back and forth. Making it hard to keep up with everything for someone jumping in now.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Ok but my point was that said star was the literally only thing immeadially affected by the loss of the Grand Star, nothing else began collapsing like that, it was just that dinky lil' star. Feats involving something being destroyed due to losing their power source depends on how quickly they collase after losing it (See requirement 3 of our stablization feats standards). Given everything except that one city block sized star was fine and even that star took nearly 2 minutes before fully collapsing.

Rosalina says: “Without the power of the Grand Star, the universe will collapse.” This isn’t limited to one tiny sun.

The construct isn't one star — it’s a composite structure suspended in space, containing multiple energy sources, orbiting objects, stars, and platforms.

What explodes first is one star, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing affected. Collapse cascades from the removal of the Grand Star, which powers and stabilizes the entire region. It’s literally keeping the Center of the Universe intact.

Genuine question but what do you mean by "the entire construct beginning to warp and distort"? If it's just the small sun Bowser stands on that blows up then refer to what I just wrote above, can't imagine it means anything beyond that since nothing else gets distorted or anything until the black hole happens.

Honestly in regards to the galaxy 1 black hole specifically are we sure the Grand Star was holding something like that back in the first place? Given it only appears after that small sun explodes I'm pretty sure the intent here is the black hole being formed in the same way they tend to irl instead of being a product of the Grand Star being removed.

The VS Battles Wiki Stabilization Standard doesn’t require instant collapse; it only requires that:

The object anchors or prevents large-scale collapse, and the collapse begins when it’s removed, even gradually.

The timeline doesn’t disqualify it. The Grand Star was powering a machine keeping the entire cosmic region stable. Once removed, distortion begins, then collapse. That meets the exact VS stabilization feat criteria.

None of that makes it galaxy sized. Having artifacts that can potentially cause galactic level events doesn't mean anything for size, that's just the power said artifacts can produce don't need a galaxy sized fortress to make use of that. Starship Mario is the size of a building so no idea why that's being brought up, and lastly PLEASE stop bringing up the Grand Stars allowing spaceships to travel across galaxies as anything even remotely related to AP. If you were arguing an item was, I dunno, country level, would you use the fact said item powered a car and let it drive across the country as evidence for it being country level?

Like I agree it can imply a cosmic-level event if we accept the streaks as stars, but Bowsers size has nothing to do with it lmao. You're overselling how big he actually is, the dude is the size of a building.

Like I mentioned above, we're gonna need something really concrete to say Bowsers base is the size of a galaxy. We can't work on assumptions like it being the culmination of his conquest or whatever.

Size of the construct isn’t judged by what Mario walks on — it’s judged by function and reach. Bowser’s base in Galaxy 2 is the final stage of his intergalactic conquest:

It includes orbiting stars and cosmic-scale infrastructure, all pulled into a black hole.
The background shows stars being drawn in, suggesting galactic effects, not local ones.
Grand Stars are used to stabilize and restore the region afterward.

Bowser's base doesn't need to be the size of a galaxy. It houses and misuses cosmic energy (Grand Stars) and causes a black hole that destabilizes the galaxy-scale system.

Like the first part of my post, keeping something from collasping doesn't mean it scales 1 to 1 with it's destruction if the collapse happens overtime. Since you've brought up Zelda several times, it's why we don't use the Triforce keeping the universe from collapsing as justification for it's own AP. Lorule lost their Triforce for ages and yet in all the time it was gone the planet, while in dire shape, hadn't fully collapsed by the time A Link Between Worlds happens.

It's not exactly smiled upon to bring up other verses for upgrades or downgrades of other series. Other series might have better justifications for their tiering than Mario might do (Like if another series has an item that sustains a galaxy but said galaxy instantly collapsed into nothing as soon as the item was gone that's a lot different to constructs remaining intact for a while when a Grand Star is removed from them. Or maybe their ratings aren't legit and don't meet the actual standards for tiering to be that high.

AP scaling via stabilization is accepted.

Items like the Triforce, Chaos Emeralds, or Pure Hearts are accepted to scale to what they sustain, reverse, or restore.

The Grand Stars perform that exact function by preventing cosmic collapse, powering the center of the universe, and reversing black hole-induced destruction

Power doesn't equal AP only if there are no consequential feats. The Grand Stars have those feats — they prevent and reverse events that would otherwise collapse reality.

Anyway I think we really need to heed armors advice and make a new CRT, the original reasons for the upgrade have changed (Like how now the rating we're gunning for is 4-A and not 3-C, the calc for the W6 black hole was brought up halfway through but nothing seems to link it to the Grand Stars, etc...) and how a lot of these comments are large walls of text going back and forth. Making it hard to keep up with everything for someone jumping in now.

We weren't entirely in favor of 3-C ratings and some of us thought that we needed a calculation or two in order to bring the Grand Star key for characters back. That's why I'm proposing the 4-A rating.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Rosalina says: “Without the power of the Grand Star, the universe will collapse.” This isn’t limited to one tiny sun.

The construct isn't one star — it’s a composite structure suspended in space, containing multiple energy sources, orbiting objects, stars, and platforms.

What explodes first is one star, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing affected. Collapse cascades from the removal of the Grand Star, which powers and stabilizes the entire region. It’s literally keeping the Center of the Universe intact.

The VS Battles Wiki Stabilization Standard doesn’t require instant collapse; it only requires that:

The object anchors or prevents large-scale collapse, and the collapse begins when it’s removed, even gradually.

The timeline doesn’t disqualify it. The Grand Star was powering a machine keeping the entire cosmic region stable. Once removed, distortion begins, then collapse. That meets the exact VS stabilization feat criteria.



Size of the construct isn’t judged by what Mario walks on — it’s judged by function and reach. Bowser’s base in Galaxy 2 is the final stage of his intergalactic conquest:

It includes orbiting stars and cosmic-scale infrastructure, all pulled into a black hole.
The background shows stars being drawn in, suggesting galactic effects, not local ones.
Grand Stars are used to stabilize and restore the region afterward.

Bowser's base doesn't need to be the size of a galaxy. It houses and misuses cosmic energy (Grand Stars) and causes a black hole that destabilizes the galaxy-scale system.


AP scaling via stabilization is accepted.

Items like the Triforce, Chaos Emeralds, or Pure Hearts are accepted to scale to what they sustain, reverse, or restore.

The Grand Stars perform that exact function by preventing cosmic collapse, powering the center of the universe, and reversing black hole-induced destruction

Power doesn't equal AP only if there are no consequential feats. The Grand Stars have those feats — they prevent and reverse events that would otherwise collapse reality.

We weren't entirely in favor of 3-C ratings and some of us thought that we needed a calculation or two in order to bring the Grand Star key for characters back. That's why I'm proposing the 4-A rating.

Time stamps are important, I should mention

 

[JPTheGamer]

Time stamps are important, I should mention

Forgive me. I'm still putting in a new motherboard for my PC and I've mostly been using my phone for the scans; YouTube doesn't let me link timestamps as easily as I can on PC.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Forgive me. I'm still putting in a new motherboard for my PC and I've mostly been using my phone for the scans; YouTube doesn't let me link timestamps as easily as I can on PC.

Understandable, but it's still important to at least list what the numbers:seconds the important quote is approaching. Even if just text next to the URL

 

[OrangeFR]

I’m very confused as to the point of the CRT, if it is to prove 4-A grand stars then like, why? They are already 3-C, for a while it seemed like it was for bringing back a grand star/power star empowered key for some characters, but then OP said that they lost that argument and it isn’t valid, but now it seems like that that is the point of the CRT again kinda. Can someone explain rn pls.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Like how now the rating we're gunning for is 4-A and not 3-C

I’m very confused as to the point of the CRT, if it is to prove 4-A grand stars then like, why? They are already 3-C, for a while it seemed like it was for bringing back a grand star/power star empowered key for some characters, but then OP said that they lost that argument and it isn’t valid, but now it seems like that that is the point of the CRT again kinda. Can someone explain rn pls.

Well, here's the thing... I tried to argue for 3-C keys for the Mario Bros & Bowser in the beginning of this thread, but @Armorchompy and @Chariot190 were against the idea and the latter suggested that we instead use a calculation to bring back the keys as a workaround rather than just flat-out using the 3-C ratings. Hence, this is why we're proposing 4-A.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Understandable, but it's still important to at least list what the numbers:seconds the important quote is approaching. Even if just text next to the URL

Don't we already have the votes now or do we need more?

 

[OrangeFR]

Well, here's the thing... I tried to argue for 3-C keys for the Mario Bros & Bowser in the beginning of this thread, but @Armorchompy and @Chariot190 were against the idea and the latter suggested that we instead use a calculation to bring back the keys as a workaround rather than just flat-out using the 3-C ratings. Hence, this is why we're proposing 4-A.

Thank you. 4-A looks good IMO

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Yeah, 4-A looks good.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Understandable, but it's still important to at least list what the numbers:seconds the important quote is approaching. Even if just text next to the URL

@GyroNutz @SamanPatou @Maverick_Zero_X @Starter_Pack @CrimsonStarFallen

What do you think about this?

Bump?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I'm in the same boat as Qaws. I agree with 4-A Grand Stars, but not being 4-A for being boosted by them.

 

[JPTheGamer]

but not being 4-A for being boosted by them.

Why not?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Why not?

I was under the impression, no one powered by the Grand Stars has performed 4-A Feats or shown using their full power at once. Am I wrong?

 

[JPTheGamer]

I was under the impression, no one powered by the Grand Stars has performed 4-A Feats or shown using their full power at once. Am I wrong?

Like I said before:

True, but this thread isn’t about Mario or any character using 100% of a Grand Star’s energy; it's about the tiering being discussed for the Grand Star itself, not for casual users being boosted by it. Grand Stars aren't merely passive batteries—they're actively used to power, sustain, and restore cosmic-scale infrastructure, such as Starship Mario, galactic domes, and gateways. We're not saying Mario "wields" the Grand Star's full energy output; we're saying the object itself outputs that power for large-scale cosmic effects.

This same logic is used to scale things like Chaos Emeralds in Sonic (even when users don’t always tap 100%), Power Rings in DC (despite Green Lanterns being limited by willpower), and Triforce pieces in Zelda. The artifacts themselves are scaled based on their output—not what the wielder uses in any one moment.

Again, this isn’t about Mario wielding 100% of a Grand Star’s power; it's about the Grand Star itself scaling to the 4-A calc through repeatable, observable feats like powering galaxy-to-galaxy infrastructure, surviving galactic collapse events, and restoring destroyed cosmic systems.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Like I said before:

Okay, so you're saying this thread isn't about any character using 100% of a Grand Star's energy, but you still want the characters amped by them to be 4-A? I'm confused.