Super Galaxy Bros: Return of the Grand Stars

[ShakeResounding]

Only a humble blue name, but this looks pretty promising to have a proper 4-A calculation. I agree!

 

[JPTheGamer]

Only a humble blue name, but this looks pretty promising to have a proper 4-A calculation. I agree!

Alright. And everyone else?

I'd wait to see what people say, maybe I'm just wrong.

Grand Stars are more powerful than typical Power Stars, but beyond that, they're typically have much of the same features.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Well guess the big question would be if Grand Star users would be actively drawing out and using 4-A levels of energy. Given we've got an upper cap of galaxy level for Grand Stars and the 4-A calc is a lil' over 200,000 times lower than that I could see them being able to use the same ammount of energy in the calc for their attacks since it'd take quite a while before they could drain the Grand Star but alas, much like Shake, I am but a blue name.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Well guess the big question would be if Grand Star users would be actively drawing out and using 4-A levels of energy. Given we've got an upper cap of galaxy level for Grand Stars and the 4-A calc is a lil' over 200,000 times lower than that I could see them being able to use the same ammount of energy in the calc for their attacks since it'd take quite a while before they could drain the Grand Star but alas, much like Shake, I am but a blue name.

We could give a "possibly 3-C" rating on top of the 4-A one provided we don't have any objections...

 

[SeijiSetto]

We could give a "possibly 3-C" rating on top of the 4-A one provided we don't have any objections...

is the 3-C rating not entirely objected
do they not turn into galaxies by exploding with what is basically a suicide move?
why would something like that scale back to their normal output?

 

[JPTheGamer]

is the 3-C rating not entirely objected
do they not turn into galaxies by exploding with what is basically a suicide move?
why would something like that scale back to their normal output?

Well, it was just a thought; I mean, Bowser already has 3-C with preparation based on the fact that "He was going to create his own galaxy via his Galaxy Reactor had he not been stopped by Mario and lost his Grand Star." What's to say the Grand Star can't have 3-C attack potency if one had enough power to potentially create a galaxy?

 

[Chariot190]

Well, it was just a thought; I mean, Bowser already has 3-C with preparation based on the fact that "He was going to create his own galaxy via his Galaxy Reactor had he not been stopped by Mario and lost his Grand Star." What's to say the Grand Star can't have 3-C attack potency if one had enough power to potentially create a galaxy?

Overtime, and as Dust showed it was draining them to husks.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah a Grand Star can potentially have 3-C attack potency, but it'd only work for a single attack before it's outta juice (And like mentioned already, the galaxy creation was overtime so I wouldn't say it's likely that a Grand Star could just pump out all that energy in one go on short notice). Bowser in his Galaxy 2 boss fights clearly isn't amped up to the full galaxy level energy of a Grand Star otherwise he'd power down to his normal levels after throwing a single punch.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Overtime, and as Dust showed it was draining them to husks.

Yeah a Grand Star can have 3-C attack potency, but it'd only work for a single attack before it's outta juice. Bowser in his Galaxy 2 boss fights clearly isn't amped up to the full galaxy level energy of a Grand Star otherwise he'd power down to his normal levels after throwing a single punch.

If time is the problem, what if we grant the Grand Star and other users of the artifact a rating such as "potentially 3-C overtime" or something along those lines?

 

[SeijiSetto]

If time is the problem, what if we grant the Grand Star and other users of the artifact a rating such as "potentially 3-C overtime" or something along those lines?

3-C overtime would imply their output INCREASES over time, which is the opposite of what happens
a power star has baseline 3-C worth of energy in it, no? if it expends all of that (i.e being turned into a galaxy) then it has no more. it can only do one 3-C attack, then it runs out. it's a battery.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

4-A for casual attacks sounds good to me.

 

[SeijiSetto]

actually out of curiosity, as someone who hasn't played Mario Galaxy
what proof is there showing the black hole is related to Power Stars output? is creating a black hole not a one-and-done deal, much like poofing into a galaxy? why would that scale to its constant output

 

[Dust_Collector]

Another question is that is there even anything that shows or states that the Grand Star is responsible for that giant black hole in the first place? I know they as well as Power Stars can create black holes but like 99% of the black holes in these games are natural, so is there anything linking that specific super massive black hole to them?

 

[JPTheGamer]

actually out of curiosity, as someone who hasn't played Mario Galaxy
what proof is there showing the black hole is related to Power Stars output? is creating a black hole not a one-and-done deal, much like poofing into a galaxy? why would that scale to its constant output

Another question is that is there even anything that shows or states that the Grand Star is responsible for that giant black hole in the first place? I know they as well as Power Stars can create black holes but like 99% of the black holes in these games are natural, so is there anything linking that specific super massive black hole to them?

Grand Stars show the ability to repair damage, ranging from frozen-over or burning regions to distorted gravity fields, and the black hole that appears in the final level destroys Bowser’s collapsing battle arena, but because the Grand Star was intact, Mario, Peach, and the Power Stars were protected, and Starship Mario safely returned to normal operation.

I can look for some more supporting scans and evidence, but this is what I could think of for now.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Grand Stars show the ability to repair damage, ranging from frozen-over or burning regions to distorted gravity fields, and the black hole that appears in the final level destroys Bowser’s collapsing battle arena, but because the Grand Star was intact, Mario, Peach, and the Power Stars were protected, and Starship Mario safely returned to normal operation.

I can look for some more supporting scans and evidence, but this is what I could think of for now.

okay but does anything actually just explicitly say or imply "yes, the grand star can casually make galaxy-dwarfing black holes like this with minimal effort"
if not then what are you actually proposing in your CRT lol, you're just trying to apply a rating to power/grand stars with literally no basis for why they would scale to the calculation at all
also you have just linked me the entire videos, could you please timestamp them (because in all honesty i'm not going to watch the entire thing when i don't even know what i'm meant to be looking for)

 

[JPTheGamer]

okay but does anything actually just explicitly say or imply "yes, the grand star can casually make galaxy-dwarfing black holes like this with minimal effort"
if not then what are you actually proposing in your CRT lol, you're just trying to apply a rating to power/grand stars with literally no basis for why they would scale to the calculation at all

We established that Power Stars can create black holes based upon their profile, and we also stated the Grand Stars are indeed classed as Power Stars within the game. Right after Mario collects the final Grand Star in the first Super Mario Galaxy game, a black hole appeared, which should indicate it was likely a result of the artifact.

These are just a few of the evidences I can think of.

 

[Chariot190]

There's def slop somewhere in there that yaps about how Koops made the black hole and like, if he made it how tf else did he

But Im not gonna be that person to find it tho im busy, ctrl+F a textdump ig

 

[Dust_Collector]

Had a look through cutscenes and checked the text dump for SMG2...

uh... black holes in general don't seem to get brought up by any characters in the game, like, at all. Gonna need to dig deep and look into the japanese version I think because not a single soul even acknowledges the existence of black holes in the english translation as far as I can tell.

 

[Just a Random Butler]

I gave it a read, and it looks solid and straightforward. I'm fine with this.

Maybe the profiles affected by the change could include a note explaining that Grand Stars and Power Stars are treated the same way, just to potentially avoid confusion for people that don't know anything about the series? Just giving a suggestion. If it isn't necessary, then never mind.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I gave it a read, and it looks solid and straightforward. I'm fine with this.

Maybe the profiles affected by the change could include a note explaining that Grand Stars and Power Stars are treated the same way, just to potentially avoid confusion for people that don't know anything about the series? Just giving a suggestion. If it isn't necessary, then never mind.

Okay. Can we put you down as agree or what?

 

[Just a Random Butler]

Okay. Can we put you down as agree or what?

Yes.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Yes.

Okay, so that's 3 agree votes. Did I miss anybody? Should we wait until the changes are applied?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not to burst a bubble, but we also need to be fair about disagreements. I know ArmorChompy questioned it, he said he was awaiting more input, but at least based on the way he said it. He sounds more like a leaning disagreement. And it's more so a vote gap should be 3 points. And there is a grace period to take into account after a 3rd vote regardless; meaning we still need to wait.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Not to burst a bubble, but we also need to be fair about disagreements. I know ArmorChompy questioned it, he said he was awaiting more input, but at least based on the way he said it. He sounds more like a leaning disagreement. And it's more so a vote gap should be 3 points. And there is a grace period to take into account after a 3rd vote regardless; meaning we still need to wait.

Then should put him as disagreement? Don't wanna be manipulating votes here.

 

[Dust_Collector]

To give my last personal thoughts, I think a High 4-C rating should be fine given Bowser using something superior to a Power Star should naturally make him the same tier as his Power Star key. Don't agree with anyone outside of Bowser having a key for Grand Stars tho, Mario and Luigi don't empower themselves with Grand Stars they just use them to power-up the comet observatory and lubbas ship

 

[JPTheGamer]

To give my last personal thoughts, I think a High 4-C rating should be fine given Bowser using something superior to a Power Star should naturally make him the same tier as his Power Star key. Don't agree with anyone outside of Bowser having a key for Grand Stars tho, Mario and Luigi don't empower themselves with Grand Stars they just use them to power-up the comet observatory and lubbas ship

Then maybe Bowser can be the only one who gets the Grand Star, but I still think the case can be made for Mario and Luigi seeing as how they fought bosses with the artifacts, no?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Wouldn't that just be either an outlier for the bros (Given base form characters are HIgh 6-A) or just said bosses sinply not using significant ammounts of the Grand Star's energy to go that much beyond base Marios strength?

 

[JPTheGamer]

Wouldn't that just be either an outlier for the bros (Given base form characters are HIgh 6-A) or just said bosses sinply not using significant ammounts of the Grand Star's energy to go that much beyond base Marios strength?

I guess, but I really don't think I'd call that an outlier, per se... We're not giving them 4-A base stats; we're just giving them a key based upon it. Also, with their High 4-C keys being brought back, the jump in AP from there to 4-A is two tiers.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Why are we giving them a new key for 4-A? They don't use Grand Stars or even regular Power Stars to amp themselves in either game they all just get dumped into each games respective hub area so they can reach galaxies further out in the cosmos, it's just their base forms the entire time when they're fighting bosses.

Also in regards to 4-A I'm just gonna quote what I already said about that:

Another question is that is there even anything that shows or states that the Grand Star is responsible for that giant black hole in the first place? I know they as well as Power Stars can create black holes but like 99% of the black holes in these games are natural, so is there anything linking that specific super massive black hole to them?

uh... black holes in general don't seem to get brought up by any characters in the game, like, at all. Gonna need to dig deep and look into the japanese version I think because not a single soul even acknowledges the existence of black holes in the english translation as far as I can tell.

The 4-A calc is cool and all but there doesn't seem to be much linking it to the Grand Star or anything really, which is why I suggested Bowser possibly having his Grand Star key be High 4-C via upscaling from his Power Star one.

 

[JPTheGamer]

The 4-A calc is cool and all but there doesn't seem to be much linking it to the Grand Star or anything really

Okay...

In Super Mario Galaxy, when Mario defeats Bowser in the final level, Center of the Universe, immediately after collecting the Grand Star, a massive black hole forms in the sky. The black hole begins consuming the galaxy — stars, planets, and even Peach’s Castle. Lumas (including Baby Luma) fly into the black hole, sacrificing themselves, the screen fades to white, and everything is reborn, guided by Rosalina and the remaining star energy. The Grand Star is collected first, then the black hole appears; this implies the Grand Star was stabilizing the core of Bowser’s realm, and once removed, the galaxy collapses, resulting in a black hole. The collapse is a consequence of removing or misusing Grand Star energy

This same thing mirrors Super Mario Galaxy 2 where, after Bowser’s defeat and massive energy discharge, the galaxy implodes into a black hole-like collapse. In both cases, the star's energy implies creation, and abusing or removing it implies destruction. The black hole is obliterated after the Grand Star is obtained, and the Grand Star is not destroyed or consumed by the black hole, but instead precedes and survives the event.

 

[Dust_Collector]

In Super Mario Galaxy, when Mario defeats Bowser in the final level, Center of the Universe, immediately after collecting the Grand Star, a massive black hole forms in the sky. The black hole begins consuming the galaxy — stars, planets, and even Peach’s Castle. Lumas (including Baby Luma) fly into the black hole, sacrificing themselves, the screen fades to white, and everything is reborn, guided by Rosalina and the remaining star energy. The Grand Star is collected first, then the black hole appears; this implies the Grand Star was stabilizing the core of Bowser’s realm, and once removed, the galaxy collapses, resulting in a black hole. The collapse is a consequence of removing or misusing Grand Star energy

Is Bowsers galaxy even formed by that point? He says Mario's there just in time to "witness the creation" of his new galaxy and all we see made of it so far is a incredibly small sun and some tiny planetoids.

This same thing mirrors Super Mario Galaxy 2 where, after Bowser’s defeat and massive energy discharge, the galaxy implodes into a black hole-like collapse. In both cases, the star's energy implies creation, and abusing or removing it implies destruction. The black hole is obliterated after the Grand Star is obtained, and the Grand Star is not destroyed or consumed by the black hole, but instead precedes and survives the event.

Where is it implied or shown the galaxy itself implodes? It just looks like that black hole is just summoned in the arena you fight him in and then fades away. There's even tons of visible stars once it does fade away after his defeat which really puts a damper on it being a result of the galaxy itself imploding.

Plus none of this justifies the 4-A calc anyway? It doesn't prove that specific supermassive black hole in the background of World 6 was made by a Grand Star.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Is Bowsers galaxy even formed by that point?

Yes — Bowser’s galaxy is already formed to some extent by the time Mario arrives when he says “You’re just in time to see the creation of my galaxy in the center of the universe.” But what he’s referring to here isn’t the start of formation — it’s the finalization of his creation, implying Mario arrived during the final stages of completion, and the battlefield contains a miniature star, multiple gravitational planetoids, and rotating orbital structures, all arranged around a dense energy source. The platform you fight on floats in a localized gravity field, consistent with his other artificial galaxies.

Where is it implied or shown the galaxy itself implodes? It just looks like that black hole is just summoned in the arena you fight him in and then fades away. There's even tons of visible stars once it does fade away after his defeat which really puts a damper on it being a result of the galaxy itself imploding.

Immediately after the final hit on Giant Bowser. The entire stage begins to shatter, tremble, and distort, and the camera pans upward to show the core of the arena folding inward, forming a swirling black hole. Rosalina appears when the entire background is wiped to white, with no visible remnants of the battlefield, and in that scene Mario, Peach, and Baby Luma float in a void before being brought home. The visible stars appearing afterward represent restoration, so if it were “just an arena effect,” it would not trigger a cutscene showing star fields disappearing and everything fading into light.

Plus none of this justifies the 4-A calc anyway? It doesn't prove that specific supermassive black hole in the background of World 6 was made by a Grand Star.

It's true that specific black hole isn’t shown being created by a Grand Star. However, the major world domes in both Galaxy 1 and 2 are powered by Grand Stars or large Power Stars, and several levels have persistent black holes in the background; gameplay-wise, these are stabilized by star energy as evidenced in Galaxy 1. As for the 4-A calc, the feat isn’t only based solely on that black hole; it derives from the overall impact of Grand Stars, especially their ability to power ships to traverse galactic distances, restore collapsed systems, and undo destruction. Even if the World 6 black hole isn’t directly tied to a Grand Star, Grand Stars do have galactic-scale energy influence given their impact on the story in Galaxy 1.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yes — Bowser’s galaxy is already formed to some extent by the time Mario arrives when he says “You’re just in time to see the creation of my galaxy in the center of the universe.” But what he’s referring to here isn’t the start of formation — it’s the finalization of his creation, implying Mario arrived during the final stages of completion, and the battlefield contains a miniature star, multiple gravitational planetoids, and rotating orbital structures, all arranged around a dense energy source. The platform you fight on floats in a localized gravity field, consistent with his other artificial galaxies.

Other artifical galaxies? Isn't this the first and only one he made or some of the galaxies in the game stated to be made by him? And plus Mario witnessing it's finalization of the galaxies creation doesn't mean much when all we really know is that the galaxy as of that moment seems to be just that mini star and small planetoids.

Immediately after the final hit on Giant Bowser. The entire stage begins to shatter, tremble, and distort, and the camera pans upward to show the core of the arena folding inward, forming a swirling black hole. Rosalina appears when the entire background is wiped to white, with no visible remnants of the battlefield, and in that scene Mario, Peach, and Baby Luma float in a void before being brought home. The visible stars appearing afterward represent restoration, so if it were “just an arena effect,” it would not trigger a cutscene showing star fields disappearing and everything fading into light.

What are you talking about? The only thing that happens to the stage is Bowser breaking a part of it off when he comes back to eat the Grand Star and then the black hole appears. Nothing gets shattered, or folding inward to form the black hole. Unless you're talking about when the black hole actually disappears instead of being formed in which case it just vanishes and we see the galaxy still very much intact. I have no idea where the idea of the stars appearing is just them being restored as opposed to just... already being there comes from (The black hole is even show to be in front of the stars while shrinking).

Hell, given Bowser causes Mario to be flinged away (And really far away since the platform he was on prior isn't even visible and nothing damages it beforehand) it seems more like they just ended up somewhere else instead of the Grand Star making new stars and a new small planet with grass for Mario and Peach to land on. I also have no idea what you're talking about with the whole Rosalina appearing thing. The background doesn't get wiped to white they all just go back to Lubbas ship and then Rosalina just kinda warps in and speaks to them before leaving.

It's true that specific black hole isn’t shown being created by a Grand Star. However, the major world domes in both Galaxy 1 and 2 are powered by Grand Stars or large Power Stars, and several levels have persistent black holes in the background; gameplay-wise, these are stabilized by star energy as evidenced in Galaxy 1.

What does the world domes being powered by them have to do with anything? Aren't they launch stations to send Mario / Luigi to whatever galaxy is in range? Also just because there's one instance of a Power Star stablizing a small black hole does not mean every single black hole in the universe is created or stablizied or whatever by one.

As for the 4-A calc, the feat isn’t based solely on that black hole; it derives from the overall impact of Grand Stars, especially their ability to power ships to traverse galactic distances, restore collapsed systems, and undo destruction. Even if the World 6 black hole isn’t directly tied to a Grand Star, Grand Stars do have galactic-scale energy influence.

???

The feat is entirely based on the black hole, 4-A is from how it's size and solar mass shit like ships being powered up to move galactic distances doesn't mean anything for the 4-A rating. If the World 6 black hole has nothing to do with the Grand Stars, then it's not worth using or bringing up for the rating.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Isn't this the first and only one he made or some of the galaxies in the game stated to be made by him?

In Super Mario Galaxy 1, Bowser uses Grand Stars to create the structure for his own galaxy at the center of the universe.

The quote “You’re just in time to witness the creation” implies finalization, not that the galaxy didn’t exist.

Bowser’s castles in both games are artificial constructs powered by star energy, and often float in gravitationally disconnected space.
In Galaxy 1, Bowser steals Grand Stars to construct the “Galaxy Reactor”, an artificial system in the center of the universe. In Galaxy 2, he establishes another, similar galaxy called the “Galaxy Generator”.

Also just because there's one instance of a Power Star stablizing a small black hole does not mean every single black hole in the universe is created or stablizied or whatever by one.

Power Stars and Grand Stars are on different energy levels

Since a Power Star can stabilize a black hole (like in Gusty Garden Galaxy or other levels), a Grand Star, which is exponentially stronger, should do the same.

Multiple levels (like Battle Rock and Dreadnought Galaxies) show black holes present in levels where star energy prevents collapse and allows platforms to remain suspended in space.

Nothing gets shattered, or folding inward to form the black hole.

Black holes don't need to behave like a real-world collapse for it to represent a catastrophic energy failure. After the final Grand Star is recovered, there’s an obvious distortion effect followed by a sudden appearance of a black hole, which pulls in nearby space. The black hole doesn’t just spawn randomly — it happens as a result of Bowser’s final attack and collapse. The entire combat arena is replaced in the cutscene.

The feat is entirely based on the black hole, 4-A is from how it's size and solar mass shit like ships being powered up to move galactic distances doesn't mean anything for the 4-A rating. If the World 6 black hole has nothing to do with the Grand Stars, then it's not worth using or bringing up for the rating.

The 4-A calc doesn’t rest solely on that black hole, but on the repeated demonstration that Grand Stars fuel intergalactic transport, construct and restore large-scale systems, and remain functional in areas where black holes collapse space. The black hole is not the sole source of the feat.

What does the world domes being powered by them have to do with anything? Aren't they launch stations to send Mario / Luigi to whatever galaxy is in range?

Grand Stars are capable of powering devices that cross intergalactic distances, open gateways between galaxies, and even manipulate gravity-based movement. Without the Grand Stars, the domes literally go dark.

 

[Armorchompy]

This thread is nearly half a year old. I understand that a mod necro'd it, but I think it'd be good to redo it or something because I don't remember at all what it was about.

 

[Dust_Collector]

This thread is nearly half a year old. I understand that a mod necro'd it, but I think it'd be good to redo it or something because I don't remember at all what it was about.

Yeah that's probs a good idea, esspecially since some of the arguments and even the rating being proposed got changed like halfway through.

 

[JPTheGamer]

This thread is nearly half a year old. I understand that a mod necro'd it, but I think it'd be good to redo it or something because I don't remember at all what it was about.

It was about bringing back the Grand Star key for certain characters like Bowser and possibly the Mario Bros as well as providing a supporting calc for it. DDM did say we still need to wait, but by this context I dunno whether or not this means it was accepted.

I dunno where to go from here, and I don't wanna do anything irrational, so what's the consensus here? New thread or what?

 

[JPTheGamer]

Yes.

Not to burst a bubble, but we also need to be fair about disagreements. I know ArmorChompy questioned it, he said he was awaiting more input, but at least based on the way he said it. He sounds more like a leaning disagreement. And it's more so a vote gap should be 3 points. And there is a grace period to take into account after a 3rd vote regardless; meaning we still need to wait.

This thread is nearly half a year old. I understand that a mod necro'd it, but I think it'd be good to redo it or something because I don't remember at all what it was about.

So, is the wait over to apply the changes or are we making a new thread? What're we gonna do here?

 

[Antvasima]

@GyroNutz @SamanPatou @Maverick_Zero_X @Starter_Pack @CrimsonStarFallen

What do you think about this?

 

[Qawsedf234]

only 3-C thing that Grand Stars have is being utilized as fuel to do a 3-C thing, there's no evidence that characters being steadily powered by one would get that much AP.

Yeah, unless you can prove that characters can wield the energy of the power star in the same magnitude, it would be an increase without a known factor.