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I already posted it in your wall iirc
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Shadow Slave Low 1-A upgrade
- Thread starter Seraphor12
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i have message walled you asking to evaluate this thread earlier today
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The way death works exactly is not too relevant—all that matters is that the laws themselves are very exotic in their functions, which then can be extrapolated to the other laws and prove that they might not actually function in a way that allows L1A.
A capacity or potency to do something that can be increased in a quantitative sense.
The issue is that it doesn’t matter if the author is that exact. Some things simply won’t always be described in power level and the very fact that some Void Beings can be greater than other proves that theres some arbitrary quantifiable measure by which things increase in potency.
Also, there is also this, which says that infinity (as a quantitative measurement) is included within space. This heavily implies that the endlessness of the Void is not to strictly mean a quantifiable thing. Also, the Void Beings share the exact same attribute of endlessness that the Void has, but surely they’re not L1A in size because of that, no? So what makes the Void L1A because of that as well?
LOTM_Historian
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It literally says that the "power of the supremes is CONCEPTUAL."
Why are we blatantly lying? Like I understand you guys want to get this passed but still bro...
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btw it says about there domains. Territorial and conceptual domains. First one just needs citadels and second one needs peoples.
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It actually cannot be. death law equals body of shadow god, we we dont have statements of other laws being literally the same, so extrapolation doesnt work due to unique position of shadow god.
actually, this doesnt prove that. nothing stops them from being birthed at different powers due to everchanging nature of Void; also we do not know if Void Beings ever increased/rank up their powers. wasnt the case for gods at least.
Void's L1A while Void Beings not because the latter can be deprived of their endlessness via concept of space while former cannot. Infinity being embedded in concept of space doesnt ostracize word endlessness into something unclear, all L1A are naturally like that because 'too vast to even being scaled with concept of space' requires some abstractness and freedom in describing a thing.
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the word conceptual here is used to explain domains and that they work based on ideas...none of which involves universal concepts. The Anvil's domain is conceptual because it involves idea of a sword, nephis' is conceptual because it revolves around humanity, none of which include manipulation of concepts. Why are you misrepresentaing scan?
Another thing, you spent entire 1.5 pages arguing with non-existence scans about Nothingness and self-debunking WoG, i recommend you to calm down before accussing someone of lying and instead look at what you are doing yourself.
LOTM_Historian
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So are we just ignoring all the other evidence, like Supremes being able to cut through concepts themselves, or beings on Sunny's level wielding the concept of infinity, which is closely linked to the concept of space? Why are we selectively overlooking these points?
I used WoG in addition to what you already mentioned to provide some extra context. I'm simply adding the author's perspective to the discussion, not presenting it as hard evidence. If you disagree with that interpretation, that's totally fine.
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I am 'selectively overlooking ' these points because you selectively misrepresenting abilities of the supremes.
Supreme having conceptual powers in the first scans corresponds to their domain being an idea
the scans you pull are solely Anvil's and Sunny's feats relating to their personal abilities, and none of those concepts are universal laws, there are only 4 of those.
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cutting type 3 concepts? and that can be also interpret as a cool way to say he destroyed the red pollen. And that creature was 1 rank above him.
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Again, I’m not saying that they are like Shadow God—I’m saying that they could be just as weird.
“Different powers” yea, that’s the problem. They can have relative but hierarchically different powers that quantitatively imply you can defy the laws.
The issue I’m facing is that it makes it clear that it might not actually refer to genuine size and more so (like you mentioned) a more abstract notion. But that’s also an issue because now the Void seemingly has nothing to do with actual “largeness”, and so it seemingly only has some vague-ish qualitative difference which doesn’t really imply any sort of genuine physical size and most likely is something along the lines of BDE1.
LOTM_Historian
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"have cut... the very concept of red pollen, thus destroying its material manifestation."
Seriously dude?
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i wouldn't say different powers neccessitate hierarchy, also because gods are strongest void beings species. I disagree with BDE1 but i am afraid thread gets derailed so much right now i would say it is better to wait for any admin input, if they ask, we can summarize our positions again, fine?
LOTM_Historian
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You originally claimed that Sovereigns don’t have conceptual powers when I brought up their ability to defy universal laws. I then provided evidence showing that they do possess conceptual abilities. Now you're saying their conceptual manipulation only applies to things other than universal laws, and that when they defy a universal law (which is a concept), it somehow isn’t conceptual?
Do you even hear how contradictory that sounds?
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lol how are they defying the universal concepts? Sunny just killed himself and as there is a rule that everyone he kills goes to his soul sea so that happened and he ranked up. Nephis just went in sky and healed herself until she became a sov? Is this conceptual manipulation in any way?
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I agree, Let's stop this for a while. It's already 3 pages rn.
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Stop strawmaning. I replied to the scan explaining cursed beings(lesser gods) relationship to laws that it used as physics breaking and reality warping powers, nothing about them not having conceptual abilities at all.
rest of the argument isnt worthy of addressing as it is conjured on blatant misunderstanding of what I said.
None of sovereigners defied law of death in a way that maters for powerscalling and i am repeating this for fourth time.
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These aren't the universal concepts of "infinityness" or "red pollenness" etc. These manipulations by supremes and cursed beings have always been on a limited scale. Like how abundance only manipulates its own "infinity" as well as specific areas of space, or how Abjuration isn't universally negating "heat" but Nephis's flames/heat in specific.
Equating stuff (the Void) explicitly beyond the absolute laws in a way that they are superior in existence rather than just "power" to just being some conceptual resistance or manipulation is kinda silly.
Equating stuff (the Void) explicitly beyond the absolute laws in a way that they are superior in existence rather than just "power" to just being some conceptual resistance or manipulation is kinda silly.
LOTM_Historian
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I’m fine with waiting for mods.
I should mention that my point is on the vagueness and arbitrariness of the statements, so it should be clear that I’m somewhat fine with a “possibly Low 1-A” rating.
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your stance in this debate is neutral right?
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I already said what i wanted to say. And your stance in this debate is disagree right? I will add this above then
LOTM_Historian
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Personally, I find the evidence presented far too vague and contradictory. This CRT should be revisited, perhaps once the book concludes next year.
Trying to push the Void to L1-A when none of the characters are remotely close to that level, based on some extremely vague lore, is just not it. At the very least, wait until we have some solid, concrete showings.
The fact that these absolute laws intractable by lower beings disproves universality...
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LOTM_Historian
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Also who are you guys even going to argue scales to the Void?
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It'd be better if someone did a summary with one post showing opposite arguments IMO(both points by @LOTM_Historian and @Super_Nova).
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not all opposing arguments worked. i can summarize post with extra explanations on points of supporters, nova can do for opposing
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The dream realm can be equated to the dream of the forgotten god. And he is also the medium that sealed/separated the void from the flame(reality.) Since the dream god scales to the void entirely its a anti feat for L1-A; this can be concluded from the forgotten god being a medium to seal off parts of the void(6 realms+ dream realm.)
Weaver as a Divine being, was able to create a seal(nightmare spell) for a higher being(forgotten god), that was used as a medium to seal the void from the flame(reality.) The Forgotten god was is the only being able to penetrate reality (the void has never been shown to, nor has there been any conclusive evidence it can.)
Add me to disagreed
Weaver as a Divine being, was able to create a seal(nightmare spell) for a higher being(forgotten god), that was used as a medium to seal the void from the flame(reality.) The Forgotten god was is the only being able to penetrate reality (the void has never been shown to, nor has there been any conclusive evidence it can.)
Add me to disagreed
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Wh-? None of these are anti feats for low 1-A
LOTM_Historian
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Wait so you are arguing the void beings now scale to the void while earlier you guys said they didn't?Wh-? None of these are anti feats for low 1-A
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??????? None of his arguments debunk low 1-A void. That's it. It just seems to be asserting something is an anti-feat while the "anti-feat" in question is a total non-issue to the problem. The Dream God is quite literally just helping in the separation not that it affects entirety of the Void. The Weaver is also just preventing the forgotten god from leaving/waking up from the Void so the separation keeps up for reality to exist.
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The void in nature is corrosive, it has been shown that even knowledge can spread its corruption. So the flame existing in it of itself is against the voids nature, thus the seal which the void is trying to enter; that was sealed by the 7 gods. Goes against its whole nature.
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This is a non sequitur for a low 1-A anti feat dude. Having a corrosive nature and not corroding something that's suppose to ISOLATE from the void doesn't go against the beyond-dimensional nature of it. This is just the separation from the Void going as intended, not entirely perfect but still able to isolate, but not fundamentally changing the Void.
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he stopped physical time down lmao, didnt alter the concept or negate it. it just says that it is hard to manipulate time on local scale because of it being subservient to universal law
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I won't bother engaging with the whole concept stuff since regardless of whether resistance or manipulation occurs. It just doesn't matter..?
Can we just wait for admins already instead of clogging the thread?
Sonoftanavast9
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Yeah I completely disagree
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This isnt a point what are you talking about. He didnt claim negation? The laws of Space-Time is a absolute law in reality(these Concepts are created by the gods, during their war), but are not apparent in the void.
Historian's whole point was that these concepts arent universal concepts since you are able to affect them locally.
Lastly The universes cages the void. This is massive statement, big anti-feat.
LOTM_Historian
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The statement clearly indicates that they are defying absolute laws, which are conceptual in nature. So yeah, just more evidence against you saying that Sunny and other people of his rank aren't able to affect absolute laws (which u claim are supposedly universal concepts when they clearly aren't)
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Absolute laws being type 3 concepts is absolutely crazy work.
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