(GRACE) Adding Pokemon Masters to the canon

[Jinx666]

As if this has some agenda to begin with, that's just a poisoning the well fallacy, the intent behind something is irrelevant if it's correct. Beyond that, I'll cite this rule:

No its pretty obvious actually.

Yeah, if you want to go against this you'd require a site-wide CRT on this standard, if you want to use it for any meaningful result you'll have to extract the substance and argue in defense of such point of view.

Ah, so you're trying to weaponise how long and tedious the process for passing CRTs is on this site.

No actually, if a proposal is being made by OP, and i disagree, then im free to say those points and why. It feels like you just want to conveniently ignore

No one has even been discussing HOW we're gonna implement Masters EX

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

@Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera Grace can start

 

[Jinx666]

Crazy

Be ignored on the actual points, dont discuss HOW Masters EX is implemented on the wiki, and refuse to just make separate profiles for the Masters EX versions of the characters, but still pass because of an FRA chain

Hope every Trainer profile thats updated to include all of this has its own discussion on what we use. I promise you there will be a contradiction.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Thank you!

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Crazy

Be ignored on the actual points, dont discuss HOW Masters EX is implemented on the wiki, and refuse to just make separate profiles for the Masters EX versions of the characters, but still pass because of an FRA chain

Hope every Trainer profile thats updated to include all of this has its own discussion on what we use. I promise you there will be a contradiction.

You weren't ignored. We debated your points and just couldn't find common ground.

 

[Jinx666]

You weren't ignored. We debated your points and just couldn't find common ground.

All you guys did was talk abt Bulbapedia and ignore literally every other point abt the contradictory nature and how awfully flimsy these points actually are. Yall took a small inch, pretended it was a main argument, and focused solely on that lol. Yet theres no agenda

Like, can people NOT see the first point is only talking abt character writing????? Its not canonising the events of Masters EX whatsoever? Nor any of the three being solid enough on their own/major reaches

 

[Jinx666]

Either way, what now? How are you gonna put Masters EX content in?

Im doubtful anyone will even edit it

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Either way, what now? How are you gonna put Masters EX content in?

Im doubtful anyone will even edit it

Do you think I’m stupid? Do you think I haven’t planned for what would happen if if my CRT actually got accepted? Haven’t you noticed I work the best in situations where I do literally everything?

First off, I’ll reinstate my profiles that you had taken down, then I’ll work on collecting literally every feat in Masters to make Keys for characters out of them; making initial profiles for some of them in the process like Clair.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Do you think I’m stupid? Do you think I haven’t planned for what would happen if if my CRT actually got accepted? Haven’t you noticed I work the best in situations where I do literally everything?

First off, I’ll reinstate my profiles that you had taken down, then I’ll work on collecting literally every feat in Masters to make Keys for characters out of them; making initial profiles for some of them in the process like Clair.

Alright, Mom and Dad take the divorce proceedings into the next room. The kids don't need to see this.

 

[Jinx666]

Do you think I’m stupid?

You dont want me to answer that

Do you think I haven’t planned for what would happen if if my CRT actually got accepted? Haven’t you noticed I work the best in situations where I do literally everything?

You dont do anything that big. You just want it ALL controlled by you. Its crazy how ppl are letting you get away with this

I dont look at your 'work process' nor care for it.

First off, I’ll reinstate my profiles that you had taken down, then I’ll work on collecting literally every feat in Masters to make Keys for characters out of them; making initial profiles for some of them in the process like Clair.

Well no, cause your Gloria profile is contradictory to mainline canon. And there will be tons of contradictions that will be visible for most characters. As was probably whichever the other character was. Either way, better start fixing it up

Masters EX has been voted to be treated as SECONDARY CANON, so your usual stuff wont fly. Convenient of you not to mention that in the OP

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

You dont want me to answer that

That's what I thought.

You dont do anything that big. You just want it ALL controlled by you. Its crazy how ppl are letting you get away with this

I dont look at your 'work process' nor care for it.

How hypocritical, coming from the debater who is only listened to because of how loud he is on this site. Me taking the liberty of cataloguing every Masters feat I can find does not mean I desire control over the Pokemon profiles.

Really? That's disappointing, considering I look at yours.

Well no, cause your Gloria profile is contradictory to mainline canon. And there will be tons of contradictions that will be visible for most characters. As was probably whichever the other character was. Either way, better start fixing it up

Masters EX has been voted to be treated as SECONDARY CANON, so your usual stuff wont fly. Convenient of you not to mention that in the OP

But it isn't, though. Pretty much all Masters says is that Gloria didn't go through the Crown Tundra, which wouldn't matter to literally anything on the profile including her scaling, nor somehow make her existence in Masters noncanon.

You have repeatedly been told by multiple people that secondary canon means that it's treated as canon, unless something outright contradicts what the mainline games say. That would not affect literally anything I am doing.

 

[Jinx666]

That's what I thought.

You thought you knew i knew you were stupid???

How hypocritical, coming from the debater who is only listened to because of how loud he is on this site. Me taking the liberty of cataloguing every Masters feat I can find does not mean I desire control over the Pokemon profiles.

Well its she, but yeah, you very much do desire to control Pokemon on this site lmao. You outright try and call yourself a hero over it.

You're far louder than i am, on and off the site.

Really? That's disappointing, considering I look at yours.

Yeah you try and use 8 year old page examples against me for whatever reason.

But it isn't, though. Pretty much all Masters says is that Gloria didn't go through the Crown Tundra, which wouldn't matter to literally anything on the profile including her scaling, nor somehow make her existence in Masters noncanon.

Well no, cause theres also the fact that Leon is still the Champion. YOU yourself tried to retcon mainline with Masters EX based on that.

It proves overall that this version of Gloria isnt the same as the mainline, and thus you cant use it.

You have repeatedly been told by multiple people that secondary canon means that it's treated as canon, unless something outright contradicts what the mainline games say. That would not affect literally anything I am doing.

Which it does. Your pages got deleted because you were trying to overwrite mainline canon in order to fit the agenda.

If Masters EX is contradicting the mainline on what happened in SwSh, and has continuity that goes against SwSh (which it does. Leon and Crown Tundra as shining examples), then it cant be used.

 

[DaReaperMan]

...

And around and around the merry-go-round we go!

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

You thought you knew i knew you were stupid???

...No, I figured you thought that about me.

Well its she, but yeah, you very much do desire to control Pokemon on this site lmao. You outright try and call yourself a hero over it.

You're far louder than i am, on and off the site.

Nah, I have the Pokemon GO Community Ambassador Program for that. I am a hero for everything I do for Pokemon; I've boosted its VS progress on this site by about 50 years. Something like Pokemon VS Digimon will legitimately never happen again and I've never asked for anything in return.

Correct, but not because I want my ideas for the Pokemon verse to be the ones that get used, I just actually have that much to say.

1. Pokemon Physiology

2. Psychic Power

3. Battle Styles

4. Rematch Keys

5. Project Pokemon Cosmology

Yeah you try and use 8 year old page examples against me for whatever reason.

That's not "your" work process. I actually keep tabs on other Pokemon VS debaters and their work to see who can be my potential allies.

Well no, cause theres also the fact that Leon is still the Champion. YOU yourself tried to retcon mainline with Masters EX based on that.

It proves overall that this version of Gloria isnt the same as the mainline, and thus you cant use it.

Just that Leon is undefeated actually, which still wouldn't matter for the scaling. I literally kept the Keys for both versions. I suppose I can reword the Note, though.

Which it does. Your pages got deleted because you were trying to overwrite mainline canon in order to fit the agenda.

If Masters EX is contradicting the mainline on what happened in SwSh, and has continuity that goes against SwSh (which it does. Leon and Crown Tundra as shining examples), then it cant be used.

Nice try. They were deleted because you told the mods that Masters was noncanon. We know that because my Calem profile was deleted too, and so was my Galaxy Team profile (at the time); the latter having nothing to do with Masters except mentioning it once.

Bro actually thinks Masters retconned itself by doing that lol

 

[Jinx666]

Mom and Dad are bringing the divorce court home? Next level is leaking sex tapes or hitmen. No in between

Can you not make weird inappropriate jokes like that abt me please??? Im not here to be fetishized with strangers

Nah, I have the Pokemon GO Community Ambassador Program for that. I am a hero for everything I do for Pokemon; I've boosted its VS progress on this site by about 50 years. Something like Pokemon VS Digimon will legitimately never happen again and I've never asked for anything in return.

Yeah this is just the delusional showing right here, and apparently No one else is seeing this rn???

The verse is hugely disorganised, and this wiki still puts Tai higher than Red lol. You making a page abt a Lawnmower aint helping

Correct, but not because I want my ideas for the Pokemon verse to be the ones that get used, I just actually have that much to say.

1.

You dont have to keep randomly plugging your threads. We get it

That's not "your" work process. I actually keep tabs on other Pokemon VS debaters and their work to see who can be my potential allies.

Yh well you aint got one in me lmao, i dont feel the need to mercilessly wank the verse and keep mixing canons.

Just that Leon is undefeated actually, which still wouldn't matter for the scaling. I literally kept the Keys for both versions. I suppose I can reword the Note, though.

Yes it would??? If Leon was never defeated, that means that Gloria/Victor/Whatever lost, and didnt go forward with the postgame. Yet she still has Zacian?

Its a direct contradiction of the main final objective of the storyline.

Nice try. They were deleted because you told the mods that Masters was noncanon. We know that because my Calem profile was deleted too, and so was my Galaxy Team profile (at the time); the latter having nothing to do with Masters except mentioning it once.

It is still non canon. People here just want Pokemon rated as high as possible.

I didnt bring up the galaxy team profile whatsoever, the mods did that on their own volition.

Bro actually thinks Masters retconned itself by doing that lol

Thats not what a retcon is. I said it contradicted it. You're the one who tried to use Masters to retcon the mainline, which you aren't allowed to do if its treated as secondary canon.

 

[FinePoint]

And around and around the merry-go-round we go!

We need a third staff vote for Pokemon.

@KingTempest @Catzlaflame @Duedate8898 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Mr. Bambu

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera @Jinx666 both of you cut it out at going at each other's throats.

Also what @LegendariumOfLies posted was very inappropriate and the post should preferably be removed.

 

[Jinx666]

@FinePoint @DarkDragonMedeus

Can either of you explain then how exactly Masters EX is allowed to be interpreted if this does get through?
Its secondary canon, but Masters EX quite literally contradicts the mainline canon all the time, so whats going to pass?
With there being no proof that Masters EX events are canon, since the statement specifically says they try and make them canon in characterisation, surely we're gonna end up with only a few mainline profiles that can validly use the scaling (assuming no contradictions)

Theres also the fact that Masters EX actively chooses its own continuity to go through (Which one of the protagonists are used and what aspects of the mainline story they were involved in, their encounters with these legendaries), so even if it was canon, it doesnt account for the multiple ways the mainline coexists with itself and only sticks to one.

Are there also any opinions of just making separate profiles for Masters EX versions? Surely that quite literally is a win for everybody, and separates the 'secondary canon' stuff from being instantly invalid the second the ongoing gacha game contradicts itself.

 

[FinePoint]

Are there also any opinions of just making separate profiles for Masters EX versions? Surely that quite literally is a win for everybody, and separates the 'secondary canon' stuff from being instantly invalid the second the ongoing gacha game contradicts itself.

I wouldn't be opposed to that.

 

[FinePoint]

@Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera @Jinx666 both of you cut it out at going at each other's throats.

Also what @LegendariumOfLies posted was very inappropriate and the post should preferably be removed.

Also, I already warned Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera for being aggressive and gatekeeping in Pokemon discussions.

Since it seems like they've only gotten worse in that regard, and they had a warning prior to that too, I'll be taking it to the RVRT.

Jinx needs to relax too, though they seem to be mostly responding to Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera antagonizing them.

 

[Jinx666]

I apologise for my own pettyness, Pazdera does admittedly get me heated, not only for our widely stark difference in how Pokemon should be scaled but the obnoxious nature of it, especially when it has all been based around a very obvious personal bias to make Pokemon as strong as they possibly can just for 'making an army' and spiting a decade old Death Battle result. Im not above anyone so im not gonna act as if he shouldnt be allowed to make whatever pages he wants, but i think his contributions have had a massive effect on the state of the verse right now thats not all positive.

 

[FinePoint]

I apologise for my own pettyness, Pazdera does admittedly get me heated, not only for our widely stark difference in how Pokemon should be scaled but the obnoxious nature of it, especially when it has all been based around a very obvious personal bias to make Pokemon as strong as they possibly can just for 'making an army' and spiting a decade old Death Battle result. Im not above anyone so im not gonna act as if he shouldnt be allowed to make whatever pages he wants, but i think his contributions have had a massive effect on the state of the verse right now thats not all positive.

You should probably leave this apology on the RVRT so everyone can see (and so we can move on in that regards for this thread.)

I just made a post which includes you.

 

[FinePoint]

Now, back on topic: if you want to re-summarize your specific objections I'd be happy to read and consider them on their own merit.
I try to be relatively fast since I deal with so many revisions, but what I pride myself on is my willingness to change my mind.

Starting with: I never played Masters. If there are major plot points which fundamentally contradict the main game, then please provide scans of such.
If true, I would indeed consider that valid reasoning to not even consider it secondary canon.

 

[Jinx666]

That all being said, theres two Youtube short clips of some Youtubers discussing the canon of Pokemon Masters EX.



I dont want to start a similar argument to the Bulbapedia one, but they give valid insight into how Masters EX operates around the canon and how it doesnt make sense. The first makes it clear that Masters EX is just very contradictory across the board to the mainline, as well as the fact that theyre only selective of one game version as the canon (Like with Pokemon Y, and Lysandre owning a Yveltal which could never have happened).

Like we all agree, they do say that the characters are all based around their canon interpretations, and get fleshed out with canon personality in mind, however this doesnt canonise the events (which aligns greatly with OP's first point). For a battleboarding wiki however, it is just the best option to separate this crossover event versions of characters with what we have for mainline. Otherwise even if Masters EX is treated as secondary canon, there will always be something the mainline is contradicting, and then only a few profiles will probably be valid for the scaling (hurting the consistency)

Now, back on topic: if you want to re-summarize your specific objections I'd be happy to read and consider them on their own merit.
I try to be relatively fast since I deal with so many revisions, but what I pride myself on is my willingness to change my mind.

Starting with: I never played Masters. If there are major plot points which fundamentally contradict the main game, then please provide scans of such.
If true, I would indeed consider that valid reasoning to not even consider it secondary canon.

I've never admittedly played Masters EX either, but im familiar with the concept and some of the story beats, ill try to find as many plot points as i can in an upcoming post

 

[FinePoint]

That all being said, theres two Youtube short clips of some Youtubers discussing the canon of Pokemon Masters EX.

Thank you, and these videos pretty much align with my understanding.

To be secondary canon means only things NOT contradicted can be included. For our purposes, this mostly refers to feats- meaning if a character performs a feat in this secondary canon, and it's not contradicted in the main game by some anti-feat or general portrayal, then we can reasonably assume the intention is that this feat is at least in line with what is intended for the main character as well.

So, from that perspective, being secondary canon could still work even if it only makes about 10% of it usable.

However, given that parallel universes existing is a very consistent and a central point of the Pokemon cosmology and canon as a whole, I do think it makes MORE sense to give them their own keys, as separate characters who are similar but different and exist in a different timeline- which is distinct from the typical assumption of a secondary canon where we still kind of assume they're the same person.

So, in conclusion, I wouldn't be starkly opposed to it being secondary canon, but I do agree that a key for them specifically probably makes the most contextual, narrative, and practical sense.

I've never admittedly played Masters EX either, but im familiar with the concept and some of the story beats, ill try to find as many plot points as i can in an upcoming post

Of course, take your time.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

We need a third staff vote for Pokemon.

@KingTempest @Catzlaflame @Duedate8898 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Mr. Bambu

That's only for big enough verses like Marvel or DC, I dunno if Pokemon would count there.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I apologise for my own pettyness, Pazdera does admittedly get me heated, not only for our widely stark difference in how Pokemon should be scaled but the obnoxious nature of it, especially when it has all been based around a very obvious personal bias to make Pokemon as strong as they possibly can just for 'making an army' and spiting a decade old Death Battle result. Im not above anyone so im not gonna act as if he shouldnt be allowed to make whatever pages he wants, but i think his contributions have had a massive effect on the state of the verse right now thats not all positive.

I've already explained this to you, if I wanted to make Pokemon as strong as possible, I would not have stopped at 2-B. I've also mentioned this to you about 5 times, the army thing is not literal, it was a metaphor based on the formatting of the verse. I again have insisted that any hatred towards Digimon that remains is purely kept off-site and I do not make any VSBW decisions because of it; and even if I did, I would be advocating for something in Tier 1 like they are. Yeah, making a lot of Equipment, Civilization, and trainer profiles have really erroded the verse huh

 

[Jinx666]

I've already explained this to you, if I wanted to make Pokemon as strong as possible, I would not have stopped at 2-B. I've also mentioned this to you about 5 times, the army thing is not literal, it was a metaphor based on the formatting of the verse. I again have insisted that any hatred towards Digimon that remains is purely kept off-site and I do not make any VSBW decisions because of it; and even if I did, I would be advocating for something in Tier 1 like they are. Yeah, making a lot of Equipment, Civilization, and trainer profiles have really erroded the verse huh

"Nah, I have the Pokemon GO Community Ambassador Program for that. I am a hero for everything I do for Pokemon; I've boosted its VS progress on this site by about 50 years. Something like Pokemon VS Digimon will legitimately never happen again and I've never asked for anything in return."

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

"Nah, I have the Pokemon GO Community Ambassador Program for that. I am a hero for everything I do for Pokemon; I've boosted its VS progress on this site by about 50 years. Something like Pokemon VS Digimon will legitimately never happen again and I've never asked for anything in return."

Dude let it go.

 

[Jinx666]

Dude let it go.

I'm responding to a comment he's made?

 

[Jinx666]

To be secondary canon means only things NOT contradicted can be included. For our purposes, this mostly refers to feats- meaning if a character performs a feat in this secondary canon, and it's not contradicted in the main game by some anti-feat or general portrayal, then we can reasonably assume the intention is that this feat is at least in line with what is intended for the main character as well.

So, from that perspective, being secondary canon could still work even if it only makes about 10% of it usable.

However, given that parallel universes existing is a very consistent and a central point of the Pokemon cosmology and canon as a whole, I do think it makes MORE sense to give them their own keys, as separate characters who are similar but different and exist in a different timeline- which is distinct from the typical assumption of a secondary canon where we still kind of assume they're the same person.

So, in conclusion, I wouldn't be starkly opposed to it being secondary canon, but I do agree that a key for them specifically probably makes the most contextual, narrative, and practical sense.

It is fair to compare them to their mainline versions, which if they had separate profiles they could scale to, but

• Masters EX battle and power system are completely different to mainline Pokemon. Its obviously all still Pokemon battles, but they dont use the general moves and formula as usual, and have tons and tons of new abilities and powers to consider, especially when there are characters like Cynthia or N that have multiple Sygna Suits and huge new lineups of abilities of things completely dependent of the mainline. While theres no real limit to what can be on a character page, it is a HUGE new stretch of content that could all just fit separately into a new profile.
• Masters EX have been considering the use of parallel worlds and dimensions such as Cyrus and Florian, however on that note it becomes hazy to say that these are the same versions as the mainline characters to begin with, as opposed to characters who are canonically based on the narrative of the mainline, but fundamentally move away from it as Masters EX has to only really go with one version of events (and even then its a mix and match a lot of the time with shared feats and determination of which character is the main protag etc.)
• Its hard to say 'feats' are contradictory since they're all after the fact of the mainline, and more so the event stories and absurd pokemon that some characters own. Iirc rn, theres these things called Arc Suits where Arceus is going around blessing a ton of prominent trainers with a powerup thats a whole discussion in itself. Its fundamentally tricky to try and fit in Masters EX's own lore with what happened in the mainline, due to a lot of the absurd stuff that the game does for the sake of generating gacha content. (This doesnt make it invalid obv, but theres a clear showing that its just being done to sell over actually trying to align with the canon)
• Idk how to go about getting scans without a load of time and effort for a game i dont play (the events each are super long too), but there are many contradictory points in the versions of the characters themselves. The videos i posted go over a few, but its also things like Champions who should have lost their title still being considered the champion (Which people were saying was a retcon for secondary canon material). Characters were forgetting what legendaries they've faced, and there are even legendaries that are being duped and given to random trainers (Like Morty owning a shiny Ho-oh?) with no real direct confirmation of parallel universes.
• I think ive mentioned before but Masters EX HAS to go with one version of the mainline games (Like choosing Pokemon Y over Pokemon X), since obv Pokemon doesnt make it easy to stick to one storyline. This also leads into certain protagonists being chosen as the main ones, and making concrete decisions about lore such as the starter pokemon they chose and other team options that dont align with the mainline's player-choice based story. As such, surely they should have their own separate profiles on the merit that we know a lot more about what those versions of the character had done in the story as opposed to comparing them to the blank-slate protagonist that the player has to play as for an insert of themself.
• Even if parallel timelines and dimension hopping is present, theres no real direct confirmation on cases such as why Red is in his younger form (Compared to USUM where he grew up), or why Ash Ketchum himself if there when hes an anime exclusive character (obv a separate version but nonetheless, we definitely shouldnt be giving him a masters key on his anime profile). As such, theres still many many ways that are showing these characters are separate in their own right, and would benefit from their own page instead of not aligning with mainline
• Masters EX is easy to stretch high tiers for a ton of characters who the mainline wouldnt give that level of power. If the Pokemon supports' current philosophy of compositing what every player character can possibly do (like having a caterpie that can scale to Giratina or Arceus or smthn just because its based off battle mechanics), then there will be ways to put characters on absurd Tier 2 levels of scaling just for being a selectable partner to 'battle with'.

Masters EX is a whole new game in its own right, and i would heavily suggest that if this thread MUST go through and its going to mesh with the mainline, that a serious discussion is involved about what content is fine to use and what isnt, rather than letting Pazdera do it all on their own.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bumping this again, just one more mod is needed to get this passed

 

[Zyurtunder13]

I disagree with this

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I disagree with this

...Why?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Just one more mod man

 

[Jinx666]

a mod to vote fairly yeah

I would like my last few points addressed too

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

a mod to vote fairly yeah

I would like my last few points addressed too

Yeah, I'm not doing that.

Literally your entire argument stems from how loud you are. All you are telling people at this point are direct copies of points you've made that I have already addressed multiple times already, some of them in the post itself that you are skipping over. All you are doing at this point is a desperate attempt to stop this CRT from passing by dissuade people from agreeing with my points by getting me desperate enough to explain it over and over, and I refuse to put up with that or sink that low. So no, I'm not going over this again.

 

[Jinx666]

Im not asking you to do it? I already know your stance and you havent been able to discuss them before (You cant even update the Disagree section in the OP to try and make it look unanimous, which is disingenuine)

i dont disagree with this just as an attempt to spite you. I just genuinely dont believe Masters EX aligns with the canon, and i dont think this wiki is prepared to even organise the changes that it would make.

My opinions are not about you. I also cant be loud when im typing responses rather than audibly saying them. Please stop acting as if this is some personal attack on you

Id rather if another mod had to vote on this, they give their points and reasoning as opposed to just saying FRA for the sake of it to get it approved like you're trying to suggest