(GRACE) Adding Pokemon Masters to the canon

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

"How very very sweet it will seem, once more, just to dream."​

Hello, everyone. This will be a simple CRT and edit. Today I will be proving that Pokemon Masters has a lot of evidence towards it being canon; more than enough for it to be considered canon on this site and changed to one of the canon installations.

• Pokémon.com asks the director of Pokemon Masters if they made sure the game was in canon, and he replies that they do indeed make sure it fits the world of Pokemon, and does not deviate from it
  • He also seems to respond to the question itself in the affirmative
  • Similar wording to this is used by other companies to confirm something as canon, such as Metroid with Samus & Joey, or Star Wars with Outlaws
• Red’s page says Pokemon Masters is in “the world of Pokemon video games”
  • This implies that Pokémon Masters itself is in the world that the games take place in
• The Sync Pairs section of the Pokemon Masters website has all previous characters’ past appearances as being from mainline games
  • Note that these do not list the first iteration of the characters, rather the first game that they appear in within the modern canon of the verse (or the origin of the outfit they’re wearing), meaning it does not have a real-world undertone and the characters themselves literally appeared in those games
• In a conversation about Game Lance, Ohmori mentions he’s currently in Pokémon Masters
  • As it doesn’t make sense for a canon fictional character to leave the canon narrative itself and enter something noncanon to his verse (and also Lance has never stated or shown any dimensional travel ability), Masters must be within the same dimension as the other games

Frequently Asked Questions:

• Why do we not hear about Masters in mainline games? Certainly the characters would talk about Pasio.
• Masters is meant (like many mobile games such as Fire Emblem Heroes or Dragon Ball Legends) to take place after any given Pokemon game to ever exist, as to always be able to add the characters from the newest games. For example, Juliana and Florian were recently added to the game despite them coming out many years later than Masters debuted, and in fact as their motorcycle Pokemon can fly, must be the postgame versions of such. Thusly, to continue adding new characters, Masters takes place far after any given mainline Pokemon game, meaning the characters in a given game would have no way of knowing about Pasio as it hasn't happened yet.

• Why do we see different versions of the same characters, or characters from other canons?
• Because they're brought in from other universes. Lear's Hoopa often rings new people into Pasio, including people from other dimensions. Another dimension's Cyrus, for example, was brought in this way. Rei and Akari, also, were brought into the main game universe by the same rift that stranded Rei in Hisui. Florian, who is literally an alternate universe version of Juliana, was also ringed into Pasio. Therefore, characters that appear in Masters that should not normally be in the game timeline are officially explained in the story and are not treated as unofficial additions.

• Why should a mobile game be considered canon in the first place?
• While mobile games are usually used as methods of creative freedom and many companies just dismiss the app as noncanon and move on, this would be far from the first time a Pokemon mobile game has been considered canon. We consider Pokemon HOME as canon due to literally being a nexus of many different already-canon Pokemon worlds, and both HOME and the games it connects recognize Pokemon GO as part of the cosmology.

Because of the information given, I feel that Pokemon Masters has done more than enough to be added to the canon material for the Pokemon verse.

• Agree: 10 (DaReaperMan, FinePoint, Monkey_Dunno, OrangeFR, y3p_owo, Apex_Predator_GX, PlozAlcachaz, LegendariumOfLies, DarkDragonMedeus, Re5yh)
  
  
• Disagree: 0

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Nice, more Pokémon CRTs, but due to the content of it, I am fully neutral...

I have to question, though, was that tag really necessary?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump

 

[DaReaperMan]

My vote is for Masters to be SECONDARY CANON.

IE, mainline games always take precedence on any matter when it comes to canon. I say this because I know for a fact several bits in Masters contradicts the games.

 

[FinePoint]

I also support it as secondary canon, meaning we can use anything which isn't directly contradicted by primary canon.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

My vote is for Masters to be SECONDARY CANON.

IE, mainline games always take precedence on any matter when it comes to canon. I say this because I know for a fact several bits in Masters contradicts the games.

You mean to tell me that Leaf didn’t actually went out in adventure alongside Red and Green Blue? Color me shocked.

Agree with the secondary canon thingy. But also

In a conversation about Game Lance, Ohmori mentions he’s currently in Pokémon Masters

• As it doesn’t make sense for a canon fictional character to leave the canon narrative itself and enter something noncanon to his verse (and also Lance has never stated or shown any dimensional travel ability), Masters must be within the same dimension as the other games

What’s up to Lance these days?
I saw him in Pokémon Masters the other day…

This is a joke.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Alright, that's 3 for Agree to secondary canon!

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump

 

[OrangeFR]

Agree

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump. (Wait, how many do we need?)

 

[Imaginym]

My vote is for Masters to be SECONDARY CANON.

IE, mainline games always take precedence on any matter when it comes to canon. I say this because I know for a fact several bits in Masters contradicts the games.

I also support it as secondary canon, meaning we can use anything which isn't directly contradicted by primary canon.

My initial & current -However tentative that may be- impression is that this standpoint seems reasonable to uphold.

Worst comes to worst, points of contention can be gone over case by case, as seems to be par for the course.

No offense meant, all.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Neutral, but some of the evidence provided doesn't really prove anything

• In a conversation about Game Lance, Ohmori mentions he’s currently in Pokémon Masters
  • As it doesn’t make sense for a canon fictional character to leave the canon narrative itself and enter something noncanon to his verse (and also Lance has never stated or shown any dimensional travel ability), Masters must be within the same dimension as the other games

This isn't a confirmation of being canon. If Masters was non canon, Ohmori would have said the same thing. He wouldn't think "Hmm I saw him in Masters but that's a different continuity so he's still stuck in Gen 5!". Alternate continuity versions of characters can be said to be the "same person", Anime Misty and Game Misty are the same character, but that doesn't mean the games and anime take place in the same world

Let's Go and Pokemon GO takes place in a universe separate from other game, but the characters in them are treated as the same:

Are there any small pockets of Team Rocket still active?
Masuda: They’re up to no good wherever you find them, but we saw them in Let’s Go, Pikachu recently… they’re in Pokémon Go now

So are the members in Team Rocket the same members in Team Go Rocket?
Masuda: Perhaps! You can find bad people just about anywhere.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP seems reasonable to me.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I agree that it's secondary canon. It's evident through interviews and official statements that there is care to make sure Masters aligns with the setting of Pokémon as a sort of different medium to express it, even if there may be some inconsistencies and contradictions here and there with the mainline games.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Alright, that's 7 different Agrees! Is that enough to implement?

 

[DaReaperMan]

My initial & current -However tentative that may be- impression is that this standpoint seems reasonable to uphold.

Worst comes to worst, points of contention can be gone over case by case, as seems to be par for the course.

No offense meant, all.

I mean, points of contention can be answered by simply saying the secondary Canon is wrong and mainline aka primary Canon is right

Alright, that's 7 different Agrees! Is that enough to implement?

I'm afraid blue name votes are for show, only thread mods, admins and above have eval rights.

 

[Ebihara]

I'm afraid blue name votes are for show, only thread mods, admins and above have eval rights.

We are just moral support

 

[Jinx666]

Kept this one quiet didnt you lol

 

[Jinx666]

Yeah like, Masters EX has some useful character insight and can be used in tandem with their own profiles. Im not entirely against that factor being used, But EX is still definitely not canon to the mainline with tons of contradictory overlap of characters from their respective eras. Ive already went over it a ton in other threads but these reasonings are very flimsy

But ultimately they should not be used to scale to stats. Which is what OP definitely wants to do, as opposed to making separate profiles for Masters EX counterparts.

 

[Jinx666]

For Point A)
-The quote only talks about character details being canon, and making sure that their representation of said character is accurate. Thats fine, but thats solely to do with character and personality. This shouldnt scale them then to eachother, such as some random character like Sophocles scaling to Cyrus using a Creation Trio member.

Point B)
-Masters EX is a Pokemon 'videogame' sure. So is every other Pokemon game technically. Theres no reason to immediately assume they're talking about the mainline game canon though. Theres also the fact that the Masters EX Red is in his young form, despite the quote said also alluding to the 'older Red' that appeared in Alola. This is one of the many, many timeline contradictions that canonizing Masters implies.
Overall, being a Pokemon game doesnt mean its adjacent to the mainline canon

Point C)
This really doesnt mean much, and is just infomring of said characters debut game. This is a website, as opposed to being anything in either mainline games or masters EX, and acts as an informational point. Its also very outdated and only accounts for the debut sync pairs of the game. Not strong enough evidence on its own

Point D)
Again this isnt strong enough evidence on its own, because yeah, Lance very much does appear in Pokemon Masters EX, but this doesn't really mean that this is what hes doing in mainline. Pokemon Masters EX entire appeal is crossing over all of these beloved Pokemon characters that wont have any content for ages upon ages after their games hayday, so it gives content to them for their fans (and profits heavily off their gacha spending). It feels like people just treat Pasio as Purgatory after the games are done, and acting as if its truly plausible for all these characters to be on one island at once. A lot of these characters have jobs as Gym leaders and Champions and whatnot, what exactly are they doing on this island for so long if this was all canon?

Its definitely something in Pokemon's vast multiverse, and it stays true to a character's canon personality and character at best. But if we (specifically Pazdera) start using it for scaling purposes, where everyone and everything could scale to the likes of Tier 2 just for existing and being being chosen by the player to fight a creation trio member or whatnot (as a game mechanic), then its only going to make things messier.

 

[Jinx666]

Idk what would entail about it being used as 'secondary canon' either. Clearly thats whats being voted on, although the OP wanted it primary canon, but to what end do we exactly entertain this?

Masters EX is ongoing, with multiple events and multiple random storylines that could instantly clash with the mainline games at any moment. What then? Do we revert all Masters EX edits the second they become contradictory? Theres SO much contradictory stuff already, and its weaponized quantity because theres so much content ot plow through and figure out for the many, many trainer profiles to decide which characters do and dont scale to Masters. Will one protagonist get bumped down to just their mainline game and not include any masters content, while others will? What implications would that have if theyre a massive scaling point?

Is this REALLY better than just opting to make separate profiles for Masters EX versions of the trainers? That actually give them unique personality and set Pokemon as opposed to being player stand-ins?

Overall, Masters EX should NOT be used to scale stats of mainline profiles whatsoever, even in separate key tabs. Perhaps it can provide small context, but it cant be used for what Pazdera is intending to do, like trying to say that the Pokemon trainers in themself scale to their Pokemon's stamina, or that every trainer that enters Pasio suddenly becomes Tier 2 for ludicrous chain scaling.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I'm afraid blue name votes are for show, only thread mods, admins and above have eval rights.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

For Point A)
-The quote only talks about character details being canon, and making sure that their representation of said character is accurate. Thats fine, but thats solely to do with character and personality. This shouldnt scale them then to eachother, such as some random character like Sophocles scaling to Cyrus using a Creation Trio member.

The entire second paragraph is a thing that exists, and also he seems to answer his question in the affirmative regardless. Literally nobody scales to Cyrus in that event except Cynthia who was the one to defeat him. Literally even the MC got oneshot by Dialga.

Point B)
-Masters EX is a Pokemon 'videogame' sure. So is every other Pokemon game technically. Theres no reason to immediately assume they're talking about the mainline game canon though. Theres also the fact that the Masters EX Red is in his young form, despite the quote said also alluding to the 'older Red' that appeared in Alola. This is one of the many, many timeline contradictions that canonizing Masters implies.
Overall, being a Pokemon game doesnt mean its adjacent to the mainline canon

They didn't say "Red has now returned to Pokemon video games", they said "Red has now returned to the world of Pokemon video games". Not all games are canon or in the same world. Red actually isn't in his young form, he's just wearing clothes similar to his young form; that's why he's as tall as Professor Oak.

Point C)
This really doesnt mean much, and is just infomring of said characters debut game. This is a website, as opposed to being anything in either mainline games or masters EX, and acts as an informational point. Its also very outdated and only accounts for the debut sync pairs of the game. Not strong enough evidence on its own

It's the characters you get in the story mode of the game. Good thing I have other evidence, huh?

Point D)
Again this isnt strong enough evidence on its own, because yeah, Lance very much does appear in Pokemon Masters EX, but this doesn't really mean that this is what hes doing in mainline. Pokemon Masters EX entire appeal is crossing over all of these beloved Pokemon characters that wont have any content for ages upon ages after their games hayday, so it gives content to them for their fans (and profits heavily off their gacha spending). It feels like people just treat Pasio as Purgatory after the games are done, and acting as if its truly plausible for all these characters to be on one island at once. A lot of these characters have jobs as Gym leaders and Champions and whatnot, what exactly are they doing on this island for so long if this was all canon?

Its definitely something in Pokemon's vast multiverse, and it stays true to a character's canon personality and character at best. But if we (specifically Pazdera) start using it for scaling purposes, where everyone and everything could scale to the likes of Tier 2 just for existing and being being chosen by the player to fight a creation trio member or whatnot (as a game mechanic), then its only going to make things messier.

It literally does mean that. It was about the Lance in the mainline games, and if he's in Pokemon Masters he's in Pokemon Masters. Also the characters leave Pasio occasionally, they don't all just live there.

The purpose of adding Masters is not to scale everyone to Tier 2. It's not. They don't even all scale to Tier 2 in Masters; some weaker characters scale to Tier 3 or even 5.

 

[Jinx666]

The entire second paragraph is a thing that exists, and also he seems to answer his question in the affirmative regardless. Literally nobody scales to Cyrus in that event except Cynthia who was the one to defeat him. Literally even the MC got oneshot by Dialga.

I cant trust the mental gymnastics that can be made. If ppl in this verse think you can scale characters based on the fact theres a rematch version of them, with no canon indication the fight was a struggle, then surely ppl will start saying everyone on Pasio is relative to eachother since they're all viable sync pairs. I can see it happening.

They didn't say "Red has now returned to Pokemon video games", they said "Red has now returned to the world of Pokemon video games". Not all games are canon or in the same world. Red actually isn't in his young form, he's just wearing clothes similar to his young form; that's why he's as tall as Professor Oak.

the addition of 'the world' does not concretely suggest them trying to say its the same world in itself. Its a reach at best, but the 'world of pokemon video games' can apply to any pokemon video game.

Or the models are just similar? He quite literally looks exactly like young red, abandoning Alola's older redesign of him.

It's the characters you get in the story mode of the game. Good thing I have other evidence, huh?

Yeah i dont know how this is evidence whatsoever. Its literally just listing a few games these characters appeared in? As some sidenote on a website?

It literally does mean that. It was about the Lance in the mainline games, and if he's in Pokemon Masters he's in Pokemon Masters. Also the characters leave Pasio occasionally, they don't all just live there.

Yeah, 'Lance' is in Pokemon Masters. So is every other character. This doesnt mean its canon just because it features a character, in an offhand comment of an interview.

'They dont all just live there' yet theyre all p much at there at the same time. Its literally just an excuse to have all these characters crossover with one another, its incredibly impractical to assume theyre all just hanging around this place now after their respective games.

The purpose of adding Masters is not to scale everyone to Tier 2. It's not. They don't even all scale to Tier 2 in Masters; some weaker characters scale to Tier 3 or even 5.

Even scaling them that far is pretty wild if its solely to do with some Masters interaction. Even then, it would hardly make sense protag wise if a bunch of them were Tier 2, while the others were literal tiers behind those characters.

Deadass idk why you'd even be against giving these characters separate profiles for Masters EX versions. Literally gives the verse more profiles for your 'army', doesnt let the mainline get in the way or be contradictory (while also taking most of the feats from there), gives versions for both male and female protags each, and even says they own a bunch of legendaries that wouldnt be plauisble for mainline profiles

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Secondary Canon seems to be the best given the args.

 

[Jinx666]

I genuinely just want to know what considering it secondary canon would entail. Fair enough it can be canon and faithful to the character and personality, but what do we take from Masters EX being canon that doesnt overthrow the mainline?

1. The legendaries that partner/are owned by the trainer, despite mostly not aligning with their own mainline games. Theres like, 6-7 characters that have literally been blessed by Arceus
2. The case for the protagonist characters, where Masters EX has both the male and female protag at a time, although acting as a separate character to just being the player stand-in (such as iirc, Masters EX having Gloria use Zacian, while Victor was the one that defeated Leon, which doesnt align). It also contradicts the mainline games alot, other than what happened with Florian coming from a different dimension, with two protags existing at the same time when that isnt the case in a few games (or others acting as secondary characters).
3. Using it for stat scaling? but if we do that and only take in the ones that dont 'contradict anything', we're going to have a ton of profiles that consider Masters EX, while theres a few that wont.
4. Adding stuff like Sync moves and Sygna suits to main profiles despite that only being Pasio exclusive, and no reference in any other pokemon games as being a thing?
5. Pokemon scaling on the wiki as it is isnt all on the same page, with profiles already not being similar enough to eachother, while also cross-referenicng media (like the anime and the games). Masters EX puts even more strain on this since its genuinely its own huge crossover story

Like i want to discuss the implications of what making Masters EX 'secondary canon' would mean for the current profiles. Because deciding what is secondary canon and what isnt, then removing things entirely from profiles is going to be a chore in itself that i dont think people are realising. I would also say that Bulbapedia counters Masters EX versions of these characters as separate, which is what i think the best course of action is

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I genuinely just want to know what considering it secondary canon would entail. Fair enough it can be canon and faithful to the character and personality, but what do we take from Masters EX being canon that doesnt overthrow the mainline?

1. The legendaries that partner/are owned by the trainer, despite mostly not aligning with their own mainline games. Theres like, 6-7 characters that have literally been blessed by Arceus
2. The case for the protagonist characters, where Masters EX has both the male and female protag at a time, although acting as a separate character to just being the player stand-in (such as iirc, Masters EX having Gloria use Zacian, while Victor was the one that defeated Leon, which doesnt align). It also contradicts the mainline games alot, other than what happened with Florian coming from a different dimension, with two protags existing at the same time when that isnt the case in a few games (or others acting as secondary characters).
3. Using it for stat scaling? but if we do that and only take in the ones that dont 'contradict anything', we're going to have a ton of profiles that consider Masters EX, while theres a few that wont.
4. Adding stuff like Sync moves and Sygna suits to main profiles despite that only being Pasio exclusive, and no reference in any other pokemon games as being a thing?
5. Pokemon scaling on the wiki as it is isnt all on the same page, with profiles already not being similar enough to eachother, while also cross-referenicng media (like the anime and the games). Masters EX puts even more strain on this since its genuinely its own huge crossover story

Like i want to discuss the implications of what making Masters EX 'secondary canon' would mean for the current profiles. Because deciding what is secondary canon and what isnt, then removing things entirely from profiles is going to be a chore in itself that i dont think people are realising. I would also say that Bulbapedia counters Masters EX versions of these characters as separate, which is what i think the best course of action is

You are REALLY just making stuff up to be confused by.

1. Why would that be an issue? That would just mean they caught a Legendary after the events of their game(s). The PWT in B2W2 also does this and that's canon.

2. Male and female protags existing at the same time are heavily implied to be the case virtually everywhere (Generations, Twilight Wings, Evolutions, official art) but the games themself. In fact in some games (like Gens 2, 3, 4, and 6) they literally exist simultaneously in the game.

3. Why would we do that? Almost nothing in the whole game contradicts mainline, unless you just want to retcon out any time someone overpowers a CT member, whom Cynthia shitstomps anyway.

4. Okay, no more Z-Rings on profiles because they're Alola exclusive. No more Dynamax because they're Galar exclusive. No more Tera Orbs because they're Paldea exclusive. In fact we literally have a profile for Sync Stones, so we literally just are going to add them. See my FAQs section, by the way.

5. People making lower-quality profiles and CRTs being implemented that don't catch every page are not Pokemon Masters' fault. It would not put a bigger strain on anything because it entirely uses the main game timeline.

You wouldn't have to remove things from profiles. And they literally just said above what they wouldn't consider.

 

[Jinx666]

You are REALLY just making stuff up to be confused by.

You really need to stop tryna gaslight

1. Why would that be an issue? That would just mean they caught a Legendary after the events of their game(s). The PWT in B2W2 also does this and that's canon.

Cause it would probably be a large part of their arsenal that otherwise the maingame would have 0 reason for including. It also wouldnt align with what other games do with those legendaries under your own philosophy.

2. Male and female protags existing at the same time are heavily implied to be the case virtually everywhere (Generations, Twilight Wings, Evolutions, official art) but the games themself. In fact in some games (like Gens 2, 3, 4, and 6) they literally exist simultaneously in the game.

And yet in the actual games, the mainline canon, they dont for a lot of the while. I already know the gens that they do, but then they quite literally take up an interchangeable character role (Like Dawn or Lucas being Rowans assistant) so what exactly do we do to decide what goes with what???

3. Why would we do that? Almost nothing in the whole game contradicts mainline, unless you just want to retcon out any time someone overpowers a CT member, whom Cynthia shitstomps anyway.

'Almost nothing in the whole game contradicts mainline'

Mate you literally had to try and say Masters EX RETCONNED Sword and Shield because it didnt align with the story canon. Its literally a gacha crossover game thats just pushing all these random characters that shouldnt rly be in the same place together.

4. Okay, no more Z-Rings on profiles because they're Alola exclusive. No more Dynamax because they're Galar exclusive. No more Tera Orbs because they're Paldea exclusive. In fact we literally have a profile for Sync Stones, so we literally just are going to add them. See my FAQs section, by the way.

No? Those are gimmicks that actually are from mainline games? Why are you trying to equate those?

The Sync Stones page is awful and made by someone who got blocked. Using outdated pages that just list 'Unknown' and 'Varies' isnt a useful example to use.

5. People making lower-quality profiles and CRTs being implemented that don't catch every page are not Pokemon Masters' fault. It would not put a bigger strain on anything because it entirely uses the main game timeline.

It doesnt though, Masters EX is its own independent story that adds some crazy ass pokemon and scaling to some characters' arsenal, that ar emuch better being separate pages as opposed to trying to act like its canon a ton of these gym leaders and other characters get random legendaries canonically, just because their character/personality are kept faithful

Acting like Masters EX wouldnt be the huge addition to each relevant profile you're actively gunning for is just crazy.

You wouldn't have to remove things from profiles. And they literally just said above what they wouldn't consider.

You would if Masters EX contradicts anything from the mainline. Thats what secondary canon is, you dont take it over the primary canon. So things get selectively ignored, which isnt ideal for either scenario.

I really just dont need you trying to claim stuff like 'Pokemon Trainers have comparabe stamina to their pokemon during Pokemon battles' based on a random Olivia quote that doesnt mean anything literal, or trying to scale characters based on just being able to be selected against characters like Cyrus or Cynthia.

 

[Antvasima]

@Starter_Pack @GyroNutz @SamanPatou @LordTracer

What do you think about this?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

You really need to stop tryna gaslight

Not what gaslighting means.

Cause it would probably be a large part of their arsenal that otherwise the maingame would have 0 reason for including. It also wouldnt align with what other games do with those legendaries under your own philosophy.

Of course it wouldn't, since it takes place after the game. Yes it would, btw.

And yet in the actual games, the mainline canon, they dont for a lot of the while. I already know the gens that they do, but then they quite literally take up an interchangeable character role (Like Dawn or Lucas being Rowans assistant) so what exactly do we do to decide what goes with what???

"dont for a lot of the while"

Many times, Masters literally tells you directly to your face who the protagonist is, and thusly who isn't.

'Almost nothing in the whole game contradicts mainline'

Mate you literally had to try and say Masters EX RETCONNED Sword and Shield because it didnt align with the story canon. Its literally a gacha crossover game thats just pushing all these random characters that shouldnt rly be in the same place together.

Only Leon losing to Gloria, actually. And that has nothing to do with how much of a "crossover" it is.

No? Those are gimmicks that actually are from mainline games? Why are you trying to equate those?

The Sync Stones page is awful and made by someone who got blocked. Using outdated pages that just list 'Unknown' and 'Varies' isnt a useful example to use.

Pasio is literally in the game universe, remember? Is your whole argument seriously just based around how mainliney the game is?

This is how your Reuniclus profile looked before everyone else significantly edited it for you. And to this day it isn't complete and doesn't have pre-evolutions. I wouldn't be talking. The Sync Stones page is absolutely fine the way it is, and something varying in power is not a sign of a past age on VSBW; it means it actually varies in power.

It doesnt though, Masters EX is its own independent story that adds some crazy ass pokemon and scaling to some characters' arsenal, that ar emuch better being separate pages as opposed to trying to act like its canon a ton of these gym leaders and other characters get random legendaries canonically, just because their character/personality are kept faithful

Acting like Masters EX wouldnt be the huge addition to each relevant profile you're actively gunning for is just crazy.

"trying to act like its canon" Have you been reading the original post? At all? And do you remember what I just told you about them not needing Masters to have Legendaries anyway?

Masters being a huge addition to the site is not only not an argument against it being implemented, it's an argument that it should be.

You would if Masters EX contradicts anything from the mainline. Thats what secondary canon is, you dont take it over the primary canon. So things get selectively ignored, which isnt ideal for either scenario.

I really just dont need you trying to claim stuff like 'Pokemon Trainers have comparabe stamina to their pokemon during Pokemon battles' based on a random Olivia quote that doesnt mean anything literal, or trying to scale characters based on just being able to be selected against characters like Cyrus or Cynthia.

Secondary canon means you take the most canon thing first.

You're probably referring to this, though that still wouldn't mean that they're drained by the same amount, just that Trainers need to stay in good shape. The latter I also just don't do.

 

[Jinx666]

Of course it wouldn't, since it takes place after the game. Yes it would, btw.

Well no, cause then it doesnt account for the fact these legendaries already get 'caught' or fought against during mainline.

"dont for a lot of the while"

Many times, Masters literally tells you directly to your face who the protagonist is, and thusly who isn't.

Okay except that isnt necessarily the case for mainline since those protags are interchangable. Masters EX simply has to choose, and those choices arent made by anyone official. Hence Masters EX is its own continuity that goes with one playthrough

Only Leon losing to Gloria, actually. And that has nothing to do with how much of a "crossover" it is.

Well yh it does. Why is Gloria only considered the MC while Victor isnt? Mainline accomodates either player as it gives them a choice on which protag insert to use. Masters EX however, contradicts it entirely by only rolling with one?

This is literally why its better just to make separate profiles for those versions of the characters. You get to keep all their 'canon' achievements from the mainline, while also adding onto the Masters EX stuff

Pasio is literally in the game universe, remember? Is your whole argument seriously just based around how mainliney the game is?

Being in the 'world of pokemon games' does not specify universe. Its a vague statement. Masters EX is a Pokemon Video Game just the same, but that doesnt mean it takes place in the same world.

This is how your Reuniclus profile looked before everyone else significantly edited it for you. And to this day it isn't complete and doesn't have pre-evolutions. I wouldn't be talking. The Sync Stones page is absolutely fine the way it is, and something varying in power is not a sign of a past age on VSBW; it means it actually varies in power.

Using a 2017 profile (8 years ago btw) to try and shame me isnt it. Its not like Reuniclus' current profile state is anything to write home about either. You refuse to use any of the modern ones ive done either? This is the case for a ton of Pokemon profiles.
This was also before there were general pokemon scalings, hence why Reuiniclus is '9-B' since i obv just followed its Pokedex entry

Its not. Just because youve found another underdevelope profile under Pokemon on the wiki doesnt make another one fine. Theyre both undercooked.

"trying to act like its canon" Have you been reading the original post? At all? And do you remember what I just told you about them not needing Masters to have Legendaries anyway?

Mate you can 'tell me' whatever you want, that doesnt make it fact. Im clearly contesting it being used in the canon that you want it to (evidently from your other profiles that had to be moved to a blogpost)

If they dont need Masters EX to have legendaries, then how come other characters also own said legendaries (when canonically theres only usually 1 or 2 in lore, and the fact of those legendaries arent mentioned whatsoever)

Masters being a huge addition to the site is not only not an argument against it being implemented, it's an argument that it should be.

Even if people were 'prepared' to add Masters EX to all the mainline profiles, it wouldnt happen. The verse has far bigger issues than you actively trying to make it as strong as possible using whats clearly composited non-mainline canon. Its overbloating.

Even if it was valid, its far better to make them their own pages of the version of that character

Secondary canon means you take the most canon thing first.

Not strictly no. If the mainline canon contradicts it, then it becomes shaky to use in general, and Masters EX has a ton of them amongst all the characters. You cant just cherrypick the things you like

You're probably referring to this, though that still wouldn't mean that they're drained by the same amount, just that Trainers need to stay in good shape. The latter I also just don't do.

Okay and you used that quote for reasoning to say the trainers scale to their Pokemon. Which frankly isnt true. Forgive me if thats one of the many reasons i can't trust you to be sensible when it comes to adding Masters EX to mainline profiles

 

[DaReaperMan]

Secondary canon means you take the most canon thing first.

No, secondary Canon means that, say, when it comes to Leon never beating defeated or Crown Tundra's canonicity... mainline games are priority so those aren't true.

EX is Mainline's beta bottom ***** and anything EX says can't contradict what mainline says, because Mainline will always be above EX in canonicity.

 

[Jinx666]

This is also what bulbapedia has to say about Masters EX canon (and Pokemon Go):

"Titles such as Pokémon GO and Pokémon Masters EX may provide canonical information and material, however the events are otherwise considered non-canon." - https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Canon

Basically saying that while characters are based around and fleshed over their canon counterparts, that the events that take place ARENT. That includes all of the storylines, which makes a lot of sense given how crazy most of them get.

Theres also the huge elephant in the room with Ash Ketchum in the game, when Ash isnt a thing in the game series. And he didnt arrive here through a 'portal' either.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

No, secondary Canon means that, say, when it comes to Leon never beating defeated or Crown Tundra's canonicity... mainline games are priority so those aren't true.

EX is Mainline's beta bottom ***** and anything EX says can't contradict what mainline says, because Mainline will always be above EX in canonicity.

That's pretty much exactly what I said.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Like i want to discuss the implications of what making Masters EX 'secondary canon' would mean for the current profiles. Because deciding what is secondary canon and what isnt, then removing things entirely from profiles is going to be a chore in itself that i dont think people are realising. I would also say that Bulbapedia counters Masters EX versions of these characters as separate, which is what i think the best course of action is

It's not really that complicated. You would treat mentions of events that happened prior to the characters arriving on Pasio as potentially usable for main profiles, but unique feats done in Masters would have to go on a different key or Masters-specific profile, given the circumstances of the game, of course.

Bulbapedia is a fan wiki with its own interpretation of Pokémon canon that this site doesn't share too. Their standards aren't exactly the most helpful when discussing the verse on this site.

 

[Jinx666]

It's not really that complicated. You would treat mentions of events that happened prior to the characters arriving on Pasio as potentially usable for main profiles, but unique feats done in Masters would have to go on a different key or Masters-specific profile, given the circumstances of the game, of course.

But then that divides the mainline profiles? Some of them will have these keys for Masters, while some wouldnt based on contradictory material? Which just wouldnt add up

Why not literally just opt for making Masters-specific profiles instead of making it inconsistent? Its very clearly its own medium and theres a ton of content in Masters that separate them entirely. Would literally solve this entire thing.

Bulbapedia is a fan wiki with its own interpretation of Pokémon canon that this site doesn't share too. Their standards aren't exactly the most helpful when discussing the verse on this site.

I know that, but Bulbapedia have been around for years and are a go-to source for collecting pokemon info. If they're saying Masters EX is only canon based on character portrayals, then it definitely has weight. Not like its even needed cause a little bit of research could easily prove why thats the case.

Bulbapedia is also far more organised than this wiki's Pokemon verse. It feels like we just want to make the characters as busted as possible over a gacha-esque crossover game when it clearly doesnt align to anything mainline other than character portrayal.

 

[Bobsican]

I know that, but Bulbapedia have been around for years and are a go-to source for collecting pokemon info. If they're saying Masters EX is only canon based on character portrayals, then it definitely has weight. Not like its even needed cause a little bit of research could easily prove why thats the case.

Bulbapedia is also far more organised than this wiki's Pokemon verse. It feels like we just want to make the characters as busted as possible over a gacha-esque crossover game when it clearly doesnt align to anything mainline other than character portrayal.

Eh, Bulbapedia is a glorified opinion, it's no different from giving weight to a blue name just because they are popular, if you want to use Bulbapedia's reliability so much it'd be better to invite someone from such community to actually get involved on this discussion over just using a genetic fallacy.