Isekai at Peace Discussion Thread

[SweetDao]

Blocking the epilogue is probably just countering with an ability. Like for example if kuro made a possibility of "blocking" the epilogue somehow with the prologue, for her to control the story, epilogue would still work. So I think that part implies a layer

Yeah but that's a bit too vast? Like "what kind of ability counters the Epilogue" ? Because at that point, you might give her a layer to everything possible since "it wouldn't work, no matter the ability". I think it's a bit too vague personally.

As for the immune thing, idk if resistance negation requires more specific stuff on that site now to be considered, as opposed to layers. In your opinion would it need something like a "penetrating their resistance" statement?

Seeing as how there is a statement that I found (and shared with Legacy) that verbatim states Epilogue bypass all resistances, I'd go with layers imo.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Yeah but that's a bit too vast? Like "what kind of ability counters the Epilogue" ? Because at that point, you might give her a layer to everything possible since "it wouldn't work, no matter the ability". I think it's a bit too vague personally.

Seeing as how there is a statement that I found (and shared with Legacy) that verbatim states Epilogue bypass all resistances, I'd go with layers imo.

Comes from this, for stuff to counter the epilogue. I forgot which one said bypassing all resistance however, I only remember it saying "no matter how one resists". But in this scenario you think "bypassing" hints at layers as opposed to something directly negating or "piercing" through a resistance I guess?

 

[SweetDao]

Comes from this, for stuff to counter the epilogue

Idk if that part and the scan where it says "a being capable of countering Epilogue" are related, but sure, it makes sense I suppose. That wouldn't be layer and more a resistance, tho.

I forgot which one said bypassing all resistance however

I found it on the comments so that was a pain in the ass to find, idk if it was anywhere on the main novel tho.

But in this scenario you think "bypassing" hints at layers as opposed to something directly negating or "piercing" through a resistance I guess?

Imo, piercing resistance is proof of a layering. When it says Shallow Vernal can "penetrate all resistances", it's meant as "no matter the resistances the person has, it will go through". If each resistance is equal to a number (1,2,3,...) and Epilogue has "Infinite attack power", you can guess what happens even with a being having so many resistances.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Idk if that part and the scan where it says "a being capable of countering Epilogue" are related, but sure, it makes sense I suppose. That wouldn't be layer and more a resistance, tho.

I found it on the comments so that was a pain in the ass to find, idk if it was anywhere on the main novel tho.

Imo, piercing resistance is proof of a layering. When it says Shallow Vernal can "penetrate all resistances", it's meant as "no matter the resistances the person has, it will go through". If each resistance is equal to a number (1,2,3,...) and Epilogue has "Infinite attack power", you can guess what happens even with a being having so many resistances.

Funny how the author didn't even answer a leading question here. They just flexed the epilogue. But looking at the resistance negation page, I guess not it's more of a "remove opponents resistance" in some way rather than bypassing it on here. There is a "null:resistance" in one of the scans tho if that counts.

But yeah with that infinite attack power logic, I guess it would be infinite layers for the epilogue. Never actually thought of it that way, but funny how that was suggested in the crt as well

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Eh, we are entertaining infinite layers for Epilogue?

Also yea it's stated The Epilogue ignores defense, resistance and resurrection

 

[Noneless21]

apparently

and just when things cant get more broken

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I don't see the infinite layers stuff honestly.

 

[sukuna171]

I personally don't see infinite layers here for the epilogue

 

[Noneless21]

it takes mental gymnastic to get infinite layers

which means it's wank

 

[SweetDao]

Eh, we are entertaining infinite layers for Epilogue?

Also yea it's stated The Epilogue ignores defense, resistance and resurrection

With only this, there is no infinite layers, but with the statement of "all resistances" and a bit of argument regarding "beings immune to Epilogue" it's relatively easy to at least argue for it.

 

[SweetDao]

In any case, she should at least have one layer of plot manipulation due to bypassing a being "immune" to her Epilogue.

 

[SweetDao]

Raw : 感想ありがとうございます。どうあがいてもハッピーエンド。そしてシロの最後の物語は凶悪とかいうレベルじゃないですね。物語の終わり……全耐性貫通防御不可即死最後の物語……無敵の防御

MTL :

Thank you for your thoughts.
No matter what, it’s a happy ending.
And Shiro’s Last Story is beyond just “dangerous.”
The End of the Story… penetrates all resistances, impossible to defend against, instant death.
The Last Story… invincible defense.

That's the scan btw, although it's MTL but you get the gist of it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I suppose if you cobble together this statement, which Idk where its from, but its interesting, + the statements about the Epilogue standing at the end in all conditions, and the other one about Null Resistance, and still ending the being Immune to the Epilogue, you can make an argument, but yea I won't be doing that myself, I will sit back and watch lol.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

That's the scan btw, although it's MTL but you get the gist of it.

Since it says all resistances, the next wank should be all possible layers of resistance.

 

[Legacy30]

It ends up as either being infinite layers of plot-based EE or infinite layers of resistance negation

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

That's the scan btw, although it's MTL but you get the gist of it.

In my opinion, I still don't see it.

That claim is contingent on the actual ontological properties of the verse’s resistances. Simply put, no resistance can oppose it because it’s about putting an end to the opponent’s narrative and those resistances are part of that same narrative. Assigning layers to it is a category error; they’re simply two different qualities.

This is just a high level of plot erasure.

Also, "being immune to the epilogue" but still being affected by it is an oxymoron in itself, that just means those beings are not truly immune to the epilogue in the first place.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Also, "being immune to the epilogue" but still being affected by it is an oxymoron in itself, that just means those beings are not truly immune to the epilogue in the first place.

In VSBW, immunity is treated as resistance if the character doesn’t lack the aspect they’re immune to. So epilogue affecting someone, resistance to it will still result in it being one layer above baseline plot manipulation, like @SweetDao said.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

In VSBW, immunity is treated as resistance if the character doesn’t lack the aspect they’re immune to. So epilogue affecting someone, resistance to it will still result in it being one layer above baseline plot manipulation, like @SweetDao said.

Do you realize that, in this case, that stance is literally self-defeating?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ignoring the infinite layers argument, The Epilogue is acknowledge to do things despite contradictions, this is why High 1-A+ was even being argued for but yea will let you guys argue about it.

In the meantime I am going to try and see if we can upgrade the World Creators even further to like High 1-B.

 

[Fantric]

H1-B...ah, you're using that, aren't you...?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Ignoring the infinite layers argument, The Epilogue is acknowledge to do things despite contradictions, this is why High 1-A+ was even being argued for but yea will let you guys argue about it

That's definitely not High 1-A+ here. I don't even know why it was brought up in the first place tbh.

 

[SweetDao]

Do you realize that, in this case, that stance is literally self-defeating?

It's not. On VSB we take the "immunity" aspect of thing very loosely unless exceptional. Here, it just means "A being capable of resisting to Epilogue". Obviously it's not as clear as day, but in any case, one layer is like, more or less obvious in any case without extrapolation or weird roundabout argument.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

On VSB we take the "immunity" aspect of thing very loosely unless exceptional. Here, it just means "A being capable of resisting to Epilogue". Obviously it's not as clear as day, but in any case, one layer is like, more or less obvious in any case without extrapolation or weird roundabout argument.

It definitely is, but we can discuss it once the thread is proposed.

 

[SweetDao]

Since it says all resistances, the next wank should be all possible layers of resistance.

Honestly the safest bet is 1 layer, next "tempting one" would possibly be just how many layers were proven to exist in the verse (if that's a thing?). When I say this, I mean layers that are acknowledged in verse, no VSB layers since you can't argue such things without feeling goofy.

Ignoring the infinite layers argument, The Epilogue is acknowledge to do things despite contradictions, this is why High 1-A+ was even being argued for but yea will let you guys argue about it.

In the meantime I am going to try and see if we can upgrade the World Creators even further to like High 1-B.

Are you fine with the removal of resurrection negation btw? It was brought up a bit above, seems self-evident tho, same case with Yogurt

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

She is stated to nullify resurrections, but if we are going to say that statement is true but it is because she is just destroying them on a more fundamental level ie High 1-A, sure.

Her lower forms basically have mid godly negation, so when I was editing the profiles, I contemplated removing it, since its basically listing it twice.

 

[SweetDao]

She is stated to nullify resurrections, but if we are going to say that statement is true but it is because she is just destroying them on a more fundamental level ie High 1-A, sure.

Yeah, either you take the "it's High 1-A so no one can resist" or "It's plot and no one resist", both options end up doing the same thing (which is removing the resurrection negation). Although it's not like she "lose" her power, it's just inconsequential, it's like someone erasing the concept of someone. They definitely negate mid-godly regen, but you don't list it.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

The Epilogue is acknowledge to do things despite contradictions

By the way, after reading the scan, I think my point becomes even clearer.

The fact that Shallow Vernal can erase someone with the Epilogue who has the ability to nullify Shallow Vernal’s powers only seems "contradictory"…

Yes, that’s right. It may seem contradictory, but that will definitely happen.

…but it’s really not, if you have the full context.

Shallow’s ability brings an end to the opponent’s story (with the opponent’s traits being part of that story), so the trait of being able to deny Shallow Vernal’s powers does not share ontology with the Epilogue. The Epilogue is beyond that, so obviously the character can’t do anything. It’s not about layers of resistance negation or stuff like that, it’s simply that the Epilogue is beyond the story.

The moment Shallow Vernal appears is the Epilogue. No matter how long you stretch your story out, it will end someday. She is the phenomenon that brings the end itself. When the book is closed, the story comes to an end. When the curtain is pulled down, the stage is over...... You may go back to the start again, but it will be the reader who decides whether your story is opened again. If we are to be compared to the characters of a story...... She would be the reader.

So yeah. This is not a logical contradiction or something like that.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

By the way, after reading the scan, I think my point becomes even clearer.

The fact that Shallow Vernal can erase someone with the Epilogue who has the ability to nullify Shallow Vernal’s powers only seems "contradictory"…



…but it’s really not, if you have the full context.

Shallow’s ability brings an end to the opponent’s story (with the opponent’s traits being part of that story), so the trait of being able to deny Shallow Vernal’s powers does not share ontology with the Epilogue. The Epilogue is beyond that, so obviously the character can’t do anything. It’s not about layers of resistance negation or stuff like that, it’s simply that the Epilogue is beyond the story.



So yeah. This is not a logical contradiction or something like that.

So basically the "immunity to epilogue" is only words on a book while the actual epilogue is outside that book. Yea that makes sense.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So basically the "immunity to epilogue" is only words on a book while the actual epilogue is outside that book. Yea that makes sense.

That's basically how it negates everything actually.

It's an interesting way of using plot manipulation.

 

[Legacy30]

Yeah, it's consistent with other analogies the author uses. Like this one on his twitter.

Q.シロの物語の終わり(エピローグ)ってどれくらい理不尽なの？

A.分かりやすく言うと、相手と自分が戦ってるのを、テレビ画面越しに見てる感じで、テレビの電源ボタンがエピローグ死ぬとか死なないとか、強いとか弱いとかそういう何かと比べる土俵にない論外能力

Q. How unreasonable is Shiro's "End of the Story" (epilogue)?

A. To put it simply, it's like you're watching yourself and your opponent fight on a TV screen—and the epilogue is the power to hit the off switch on the TV. It's an out-of-bounds ability that doesn’t even belong on the same playing field as things like living or dying, or being strong or weak.

 

[SweetDao]

That's basically how it negates everything actually.

It's an interesting way of using plot manipulation.

Actually, even if I have different view from you, shouldn't resistance negation be removed in all possible interpretation (mine, yours and current)?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Actually, even if I have different view from you, shouldn't resistance negation be removed in all possible interpretation (mine, yours and current)?

Yes. It's not resistance negation whatsoever.

 

[SweetDao]

stuff

Could you check the talk about resistance negation just above? In case you have more information or something

 

[Enter_Bluey]

That's about all there is for resistance negation tbh, but you even found something I didn't know about.

So from what I gathered here, possible removal of Resurrection negation, maybe resistance negation removal. It turns into a layer instead. The high 1A+ stuff got argued against anyway, that one surprised me. But yeah, the epilogue is essentially like the reader. While the story plays out on a book, the text reads out "X character resists", and in the end the reader can just close that book.

This was always why epilogue was textbook R>F anyway. Like the wait from ultima in that thread wasnt long(impossible), because it was that clear cut

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

That's about all there is for resistance negation tbh, but you even found something I didn't know about.

So from what I gathered here, possible removal of Resurrection negation, maybe resistance negation removal. It turns into a layer instead. The high 1A+ stuff got argued against anyway, that one surprised me. But yeah, the epilogue is essentially like the reader. While the story plays out on a book, the text reads out "X character resists", and in the end the reader can just close that book.

This was always why epilogue was textbook R>F anyway. Like the wait from ultima in that thread wasnt long(impossible), because it was that clear cut

Don't think a layer is really appropriate if the "resists Epilogue" is text within the story, since then the Epilogue would be qualitatively above that and the Epilogue written in story is just a written facsimile of it and no way comparable.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Ignoring the infinite layers argument, The Epilogue is acknowledge to do things despite contradictions, this is why High 1-A+ was even being argued for but yea will let you guys argue about it.

In the meantime I am going to try and see if we can upgrade the World Creators even further to like High 1-B.

How would high 1B interact with current dimensional scaling with higher order stuff and RE though? Or I should ask where high 1B comes from actually

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Don't think a layer is really appropriate if the "resists Epilogue" is text within the story, since then the Epilogue would be qualitatively above that and the Epilogue written in story is just a written facsimile of it and no way comparable.

Yeah I should have split up tue opinions. But the epilogue stands at the end as an R>F. I think they are more trying to get a scenario when a High 1A being faces the epilogue I guess

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

How would high 1B interact with current dimensional scaling with higher order stuff and RE though? Or I should ask where high 1B comes from actually

Same evidence as before about Makina's rival, being the world creator of an infinite multidimensional universe/universes.

Slipped my mind, someone else brought it up, but after all the revisions, dimensions in verse are now legit temporal/higher dimensions, so statements about "infinite multidimensional universes", now have to be relooked at.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Same evidence as before about Makina's rival, being the world creator of an infinite multidimensional universe/universes.

Slipped my mind, someone else brought it up, but after all the revisions, dimensions in verse are now legit temporal/higher dimensions, so statements about "infinite multidimensional universes", now have to be relooked at.

I see, I forgot about that. Since verse has temporal dimensjons for 6D, then its basically infinite of those. If high 1B becomes a thing, would higher order dimensions be much higher into high 1B basically? Not sure if its enough for like high 1B+

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Maybe? Will have to actually think about where i am going with that thread, honestly there is so much work to do for this verse, idk if I even consider this a high priority.

Will finish what I planned to do first before doing any other threads.