(GRACE) Adding Pokemon Masters to the canon

[Jinx666]

Eh, Bulbapedia is a glorified opinion, it's no different from giving weight to a blue name just because they are popular, if you want to use Bulbapedia's reliability so much it'd be better to invite someone from such community to actually get involved on this discussion over just using a genetic fallacy.

Bro linked genetic fallacy?

I get what you mean in that it shouldnt mean absolutely everything, BUT it just undeniably is more organised and knows the Pokemon canon a lot better than this wiki does, since thats its whole purpose, being a databank for all things Pokemon. Masters EX being canon is also a glorified opinion, but its only being done to try and make Pokemon stronger across the board when in reality, it is literally just a crossover mobile gacha game that puts all these characters together for the fanservice. Sure it can be faithful to said character, but the events are most certainly not canon. It can definitely be taken for example

This posts talks about instances of it being 'implied canon' (with shaky points) but no one seems to be wanting to discuss how flimsy and implicatory making Masters EX canon would be. It contradicts the mainline way too much. Meanwhile the wiki literally allows for separate profiles on separate versions of the characters, without allowing composite profiles in one. Don't zoom into the sidenote abt Bulbapedia (which just shows knowledgable sources ALSO dont consider it canon) and address my other concerns

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Just one more mod, that's all this CRT needs man, just one more mod to agree

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Masters EX being canon is also a glorified opinion

That's why I included this little thing called evidence.

its only being done to try and make Pokemon stronger across the board

I'll link a fallacy too. Appeal to Motive.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Eh, Bulbapedia is a glorified opinion, it's no different from giving weight to a blue name just because they are popular, if you want to use Bulbapedia's reliability so much it'd be better to invite someone from such community to actually get involved on this discussion over just using a genetic fallacy.

Frankly don't use fan wikis outside of height and weight. They are written by fans not the creators

 

[FinePoint]

Eh, Bulbapedia is a glorified opinion, it's no different from giving weight to a blue name just because they are popular, if you want to use Bulbapedia's reliability so much it'd be better to invite someone from such community to actually get involved on this discussion over just using a genetic fallacy.

I will say that Bulbapedia is generally very reliable and thorough in its information and ensuring it's supported with direct evidence from official media, and outside of Battleboarding it's often the absolute best place to get Pokemon related information, as official sources are very scattered.

You're 100% right that we can't use it as gospel, but we can probably use it reliably as a source of objective information, at least.

 

[Jinx666]

That's why I included this little thing called evidence.

Yeah, and i went through and addressed this 'evidence'

 

[Jinx666]

I will say that Bulbapedia is generally very reliable and thorough in its information and ensuring it's supported with direct evidence from official media, and outside of Battleboarding it's often the absolute best place to get Pokemon related information, as official sources are very scattered.

You're 100% right that we can't use it as gospel, but we can probably use it reliably as a source of objective information, at least.

Exactly.
Its literally been running for years and people are dedicated to keep it up to date. We shouldnt just disregard what its saying because its a fan wiki, the people aren't inclined to be making it up

What do you think if we considered Pokemon Masters EX 'secondary canon' that it would mean for the profiles though? With all the inconsistencies with events and stories, and the fact Masters EX goes with separate stories for both protagonists, surely theres a ton of things that will already disprove it to the main canon, and then we couldnt use it anyway?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Exactly.
Its literally been running for years and people are dedicated to keep it up to date. We shouldnt just disregard what its saying because its a fan wiki, the people aren't inclined to be making it up

Appeal to Effort. Just because someone works hard on something doesn't mean its good or authoratative. At the end of the day, Bulbpedia is a fan site not an official one. It shoudln't dictate Pokemon discusssion, and it certainly doesn't take precedence over official statements.

What do you think if we considered Pokemon Masters EX 'secondary canon' that it would mean for the profiles though? With all the inconsistencies with events and stories, and the fact Masters EX goes with separate stories for both protagonists, surely theres a ton of things that will already disprove it to the main canon, and then we couldnt use it anyway?

Appeal to Incredulity - Just because something's hard we shouldn't do it?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yeah, and i went through and addressed this 'evidence'

You addressed it, but you didn't debunk it.

 

[Jinx666]

Appeal to Effort. Just because someone works hard on something doesn't mean its good or authoratative. At the end of the day, Bulbpedia is a fan site not an official one. It shoudln't dictate Pokemon discusssion, and it certainly doesn't take precedence over official statements.

Well no, cause you would take into consideration credible knowledgable opinions from people that have experience and results from their research. Its like referencing a scientific paper or case study from a worthy source. The majority of Pokemon fans ive been looking up too also know Masters EX isnt canon. We shouldnt only be looking into the echo chamber, especially when theres an incentive by some ppl to make Pokemon as strong as possible on this verse as opposed to being more critical.

There is hardly official statements, and the one quoted from this thread is literally only talking about making it canon to the trainers 'personality. not the events occuring itself, the rest are jokes and pretty big reaches.

Appeal to Incredulity - Just because something's hard we shouldn't do it?

Its not just about it being hard, but if the verse is already struggling to organise itself and get its profiles consistent, are we sure this is what we should be prioritising, even if i did agree?

Its about the fact Masters EX is very very contradictory across the board, and if its secondary canon standard, there will be a bunch of profiles that WONT use Masters EX, and perhaps a few that slip through the cracks that do. Which people seem to be ignoring conveniently

 

[Jinx666]

You addressed it, but you didn't debunk it.

You wouldnt admit i 'debunked it' even if i did mate, it doesnt mean much. Im not the only one who finds flaws with some of your points

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

You wouldnt admit i 'debunked it' even if i did mate, it doesnt mean much. Im not the only one who finds flaws with some of your points

Other peoples’ “flaws” are that the final one is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Jinx666]

Other peoples’ “flaws” are that the final one is a bit of a stretch.

They're all flawed. The first point is the only decent one since its an actual direct ask whether its canon, but its only saying that the game bases the characters off their canon personality, keeping faithful to it, as opposed to the actual goings on being canon (and that should be obvious its not since the events go into huge fanfic-like territory and contradict trainers of actual pokemon. Morty has a shiny Ho-oh????? Like?)

• You're taking joke statments as pure fact that dont concretely say anything
• You're trying to spin the narrative thast just because they said 'world of Pokemon games' (Which in-lore, Pokemon ISNT a game, its the actual verse) to say that it means theyre in the same universe as the mainline
• You're using a website saying what game they've appeared in (and for some, they say both games like Diamond and Pearl separately, Which one is it if its truly being used to reference a singular character? D&P still have differences between them),

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Well no, cause you would take into consideration credible knowledgable opinions from people that have experience and results from their research. Its like referencing a scientific paper or case study from a worthy source. The majority of Pokemon fans ive been looking up too also know Masters EX isnt canon.

Still fans. It doesn't matter how knowledgeable they are. Official Statements take precedence.

We shouldnt only be looking into the echo chamber, especially when theres an incentive by some ppl to make Pokemon as strong as possible on this verse as opposed to being more critical.

An open forum is hardly an echo chamber. The fact that you are here right now disagreeing debunks this argument.

Its not just about it being hard, but if the verse is already struggling to organise itself and get its profiles consistent, are we sure this is what we should be prioritising, even if i did agree?

Finding out what is or isn't canon isn't important? Isn't better to sort this shit out right now and figure out what feats+statements are actually factual?

Its about the fact Masters EX is very very contradictory across the board, and if its secondary canon standard, there will be a bunch of profiles that WONT use Masters EX, and perhaps a few that slip through the cracks that do. Which people seem to be ignoring conveniently

Yes...that is what secondary canon is. Where it contradicts the main canon, the main canon takes precdence.

 

[Jinx666]

Still fans. It doesn't matter how knowledgeable they are. Official Statements take precedence.

And there are no official statements except one that says that the devs tried to flesh out and align their representations of the character in terms of...their character. Thats just them saying they were making the characters as similar as possible. Absolutely nothing about the events of Masters EX, and the pokemon they randomly own, being canon.

An open forum is hardly an echo chamber. The fact that you are here right now disagreeing debunks this argument.

Echo Chamber as in only people who are on the vs battles wiki as a whole. You're turning your nose up at the fact that its a general consensus in the Pokemon community as a whole that Masters EX just...is not mainline canon, but vs battles wiki wants to be?

Im not saying its official fact, but yeah, its a credible and informed source. Theres no reason to be denying it outright, because it gives the idea on what others (esp ones who wouldnt have an agenda on vs battle wiki tiering) think.

Finding out what is or isn't canon isn't important? Isn't better to sort this shit out right now and figure out what feats+statements are actually factual?

Yes it is?
If we're gonna treat Masters EX as 'canon until its contradictory', then theres gonna be a WHOLE lot of contradictions that then completely null the use of Masters EX powerups, since it'll prove that those arent the same versions as from the mainline. Which should be obvious...

Yes...that is what secondary canon is. Where it contradicts the main canon, the main canon takes precdence.

Okay and Masters EX has tons of contradictions. Its only canon in regards to their characters and personalities, nothing to do with events or the pokemon they own.

Its extremely important people understand the implications and employ a bit of foresight. We already know that Sword and Shield characters are still treating Leon as the champion, except thats not true if we follow mainline. Gloria and Victor are two separate characters (where the other one is a completely made up interpretation) that weren't in the mainline story together. Does that mean we just...disregard Galar representation in Masters EX? Since its clearly proven that the characters and continuity arent the same as the mainline? But then that wouldnt line up with any characters who dont have that contradiction? (If theres any)

 

[Jinx666]

Can someone genuinely tell me what the issue would be with just making separate profiles for the Masters EX versions?

Like i said, you literally get ALL the feats theyve done in the mainline that they've admitted to, and then also everything Masters EX gives them.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bro is actually just making up a reason to be mad

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Can someone genuinely tell me what the issue would be with just making separate profiles for the Masters EX versions?

Like i said, you literally get ALL the feats theyve done in the mainline that they've admitted to, and then also everything Masters EX gives them.

Some of them would anyways, like Kris or arguably Professor Oak.

 

[Jinx666]

Some of them would anyways, like Kris or arguably Professor Oak.

Okay but why only them?

What have they got thats different to literally every other character that also have outlandish contradictory pokemon/scaling that wouldnt align with the mainline games?

 

[FinePoint]

Bro is actually just making up a reason to be mad

Be nice.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Okay but why only them?

What have they got thats different to literally every other character that also have outlandish contradictory pokemon that wouldnt allign with the mainline games?

Since you apparently love the sound of my voice yet don't seem to care when I explain things, they would have gotten the Pokemon sometime after the game takes place. Those characters don't really appear in the main games or don't have feats in it.

 

[Jinx666]

Since you apparently love the sound of my voice yet don't seem to care when I explain things, they would have gotten the Pokemon sometime after the game takes place. Those characters don't really appear in the main games or don't have feats in it.

You're not speaking, you're typing. Im not hearing anything. I would expect you to explain things

I mean that would be fair tbh, but it still makes no sense making them a profile just to input all the spinoff non-mainline stuff, and then not just...do it for the rest of the characters? And then what, Kris is the character to own a Johto suicune and not the mainline protag?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

And there are no official statements except one that says that the devs tried to flesh out and align their representations of the character in terms of...their character. Thats just them saying they were making the characters as similar as possible. Absolutely nothing about the events of Masters EX, and the pokemon they randomly own, being canon.

• Pokémon.com asks the director of Pokemon Masters if they made sure the game was in canon, and he replies that they do indeed make sure it fits the world of Pokemon, and does not deviate from it
  • He also seems to respond to the question itself in the affirmative
  • Similar wording to this is used by other companies to confirm something as canon, such as Metroid with Samus & Joey, or Star Wars with Outlaws
• Red’s page says Pokemon Masters is in “the world of Pokemon video games”
  • This implies that Pokémon Masters itself is in the world that the games take place in
• The Sync Pairs section of the Pokemon Masters website has all previous characters’ past appearances as being from mainline games
  • Note that these do not list the first iteration of the characters, rather the first game that they appear in within the modern canon of the verse (or the origin of the outfit they’re wearing), meaning it does not have a real-world undertone and the characters themselves literally appeared in those games
• In a conversation about Game Lance, Ohmori mentions he’s currently in Pokémon Masters
  • As it doesn’t make sense for a canon fictional character to leave the canon narrative itself and enter something noncanon to his verse (and also Lance has never stated or shown any dimensional travel ability), Masters must be within the same dimension as the other games

I don't see Panzdera making that args. Even if he was, its clear he brings alot more to the table

Echo Chamber as in only people who are on the vs battles wiki as a whole. You're turning your nose up at the fact that its a general consensus in the Pokemon community as a whole that Masters EX just...is not mainline canon, but vs battles wiki wants to be?

Yes, because the wiki isn't about whats popular but whats correct. For example, its popular consensus on BloodRayne that the comics are not canon, but if you actually dig into the creator's statements, quite the opposite is true.

Im not saying its official fact, but yeah, its a credible and informed source. Theres no reason to be denying it outright, because it gives the idea on what others (esp ones who wouldnt have an agenda on vs battle wiki tiering) think.

I never said it wasn't a credible and informed source. I was saying Official Statements take precedent over them.

Yes it is?
If we're gonna treat Masters EX as 'canon until its contradictory', then theres gonna be a WHOLE lot of contradictions that then completely null the use of Masters EX powerups, since it'll prove that those arent the same versions as from the mainline. Which should be obvious...

That's why its earned secondary canon status not primary canon.

Okay and Masters EX has tons of contradictions. Its only canon in regards to their characters and personalities, nothing to do with events or the pokemon they own.

Its extremely important people understand the implications and employ a bit of foresight. We already know that Sword and Shield characters are still treating Leon as the champion, except thats not true if we follow mainline. Gloria and Victor are two separate characters (where the other one is a completely made up interpretation) that weren't in the mainline story together. Does that mean we just...disregard Galar representation in Masters EX? Since its clearly proven that the characters and continuity arent the same as the mainline? But then that wouldnt line up with any characters who dont have that contradiction? (If theres any)

Actually, you seem to be arguing quite the opposite. From what you are telling me, the Pokemon series has ton of contradictions and issues with each game. So, Masters EX would be fairly within the norm.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

While we wait for other mods to chime in on this, I would like to reinform everyone that I have 5 other Pokemon CRTs going at the moment, all of which could use some heavy support like this one.

1. Pokemon Physiology

2. Psychic Power

3. Battle Styles

4. Rematch Keys

5. Project Pokemon Cosmology

 

[Jinx666]

I don't see Panzdera making that args. Even if he was, its clear he brings alot more to the table

He is. We're trying to spin the events and random pokemon that these characters are given for sygna suits as canon, just because theres a development comment saying that they tried to flesh out and make their CHARACTER and personality canon. That isnt enough for the major implications canonising Masters EX would have on the scaling and new content overall.

Ive went over why the other three points just aren't enough/valid in previous posts

Yes, because the wiki isn't about whats popular but whats correct. For example, its popular consensus on BloodRayne that the comics are not canon, but if you actually dig into the creator's statements, quite the opposite is true.

Different franchise, different collection of fans arguing it, it doesnt mean thats the case for Bulbapedia. Look at them objectively. Idk what Bloodrayne is, but if it can actually get direct confimation from its creator, then its not the same as Pokemon

I never said it wasn't a credible and informed source. I was saying Official Statements take precedent over them.

Okay, and there ARE no official statements that are denying it.

You were zooming in on my use of Bulbapedia as a more professional opinion on the canon, just because it wasnt an official source. It shouldnt decide the argument on its own, no, never claimed that, but its important to look a bit more outward for the answer to the question.

That's why its earned secondary canon status not primary canon.

Okay, but with how Pazdera wants to incorporate Masters EX, its going to mix itself into the mainline profiles with all of these fanfic gacha-farming events that completely fall apart from the mainline canon. Then what? We only consider Masters EX for a few trainers?

If we're treating it as 'secondary canon'. then there needs to also be a MAJOR discussion on what we can use and what we cant, otherwise its going to be an even larger mess on profiles than it already is. But it can only really be considered canon for character personality.

Actually, you seem to be arguing quite the opposite. From what you are telling me, the Pokemon series has ton of contradictions and issues with each game. So, Masters EX would be fairly within the norm.

What are these contradictions and issues with the mainline???

Masters EX isnt the norm whatsoever. Please dont compare inevitable mainline inconsistencies from an almost 30 year old long franchise, to the crossover gacha game thats giving everybody legendaries left and right, outright contradicting the mainline of the story so it can explain why most of these characters are all gathered on one island, and overall is just a reason for people to scale everything to Tier 2 (which ppl are saying isnt the case, but with how people are scaling characters based on game levels and the fact that you can 'choose to fight them' as a player who beat a legendary, its inevitable)

 

[Jinx666]

Like, my main concern here is that people dont want to talk about what we do if we do treat this as secondary canon?

Is anyone aware how much content Masters EX has, and how much of it will easily fall apart and separate itself from the mainline with just a little bit of research? The amount of characters that are literally just alternate versions of themself?

And why cant we just literally make separate profiles for these versions of the character instead? That way you dont have to worry about contradictions, and you get to keep all the crazy tiering on its own

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I don't get why scaling is an issue anyways. I never got why we treat Sinnoh as the strongest region when the narrative and context clues and common sense would indicate it's just another region of the Pokémon world. Cynthia stomping the verse low diff is insane headcanon. She might not lose against most people but other champions should absolutely give her trouble. Trainers are usually treated as comparable within their ranks.

But that's just me. I'm aware what it would to the scaling of the verse but I don't really care? Nothing says other regions DON'T scale beyond headcanon "power levels"

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I don't get why scaling is an issue anyways. I never got why we treat Sinnoh as the strongest region when the narrative and context clues and common sense would indicate it's just another region of the Pokémon world. Cynthia stomping the verse low diff is insane headcanon. She might not lose against most people but other champions should absolutely give her trouble. Trainers are usually treated as comparable within their ranks.

But that's just me. I'm aware what it would to the scaling of the verse but I don't really care? Nothing says other regions DON'T scale beyond headcanon "power levels"

Other than Galar which we also have that high, Pokemon itself kinda treats Sinnoh as the strongest region.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Other than Galar which we also have that high, Pokemon itself kinda treats Sinnoh as the strongest region.

Point to me exactly where they explicitly do this.

And don't bring up the mythology.

If you bring up anime fights Cynthia still had some Pokémon get taken out by other Champions.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Point to me exactly where they explicitly do this.

And don't bring up the mythology.

If you bring up anime fights Cynthia still had some Pokémon get taken out by other Champions.

I won't bring up the mythology, but Cynthia is by far treated as being the highest above their region's Legendaries.

Leon even in the games is one of the strongest Champions, if not the strongest (for example oneshotting Blue in Masters, who is ridiculously stronger than back when he was a Champion and is roughly as strong as Red). Cynthia is always put roughly on his level.

Lear also has Pokemon way stronger than those who can match Iris's Haxorus blow for blow and Cynthia went way further in the PML tournament than he did. (Remember that Iris herself is >>>>> Alder)

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Exactly.
Its literally been running for years and people are dedicated to keep it up to date. We shouldnt just disregard what its saying because its a fan wiki, the people aren't inclined to be making it up.

We're not saying Bulbapedia is worthless. It's a very helpful compendium of information like lore entries, documenting different Pokémon mediums, and so on. However, its understanding of canon is entirely based on consensus of fan interpretation. We shouldn't put undue value on a fan wiki's interpretation of subjective matters when its primary value is based on what it objectively recounts from the franchise.

 

[Jinx666]

We're not saying Bulbapedia is worthless. It's a very helpful compendium of information like lore entries, documenting different Pokémon mediums, and so on. However, its understanding of canon is entirely based on consensus of fan interpretation. We shouldn't put undue value on a fan wiki's interpretation of subjective matters when its primary value is based on what it objectively recounts from the franchise.

It's not the ONLY argument here. We should definitely put value in knowledgable sources, but its not going to be a main point.

Our understanding of Pokemon canon is also fan interpretation. We're literally on the same level, only this is based on battleboarding (which can come with hidden agendas) while Bulbapedia has no motive for doing so. And its solely focused on pokemon, which can make it a useful point of reference.

This all being said, Pokemon Masters EX has already proven time and time again that it isnt canon to the mainline, and that it goes with its own chosen line of characters. The OP only talks about 1 point where they only confirm the character writing is based around canon, with the others being not solid stretches. It also fails to consider the many, many, many contradictory points in Masters EX events and happenings that would just blatantly go against it being canon in the first place. Bulbapedia understands this.

Can someone PLEASE stop zooming in on the Bulbapedia sidenote like thats the only thing im saying, and answer what we do about the huge contradictions that go against mainline in general. Even if its secondary canon, what does it matter if it all gets proven false and unusable? We dont use it? Then theres a bunch of profiles that dont consider it while a few do?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

It's not the ONLY argument here. We should definitely put value in knowledgable sources, but its not going to be a main point.

Our understanding of Pokemon canon is also fan interpretation. We're literally on the same level, only this is based on battleboarding (which can come with hidden agendas) while Bulbapedia has no motive for doing so. And its solely focused on pokemon, which can make it a useful point of reference.

The Bulbapedia point has been hammered home for two pages. If at this point you can't understand why a fan wiki shouldn't take precedent over official statements, then there is no point arguing further. We aren't going to change each others mind.

This all being said, Pokemon Masters EX has already proven time and time again that it isnt canon to the mainline, and that it goes with its own chosen line of characters. The OP only talks about 1 point where they only confirm the character writing is based around canon, with the others being not solid stretches. It also fails to consider the many, many, many contradictory points in Masters EX events and happenings that would just blatantly go against it being canon in the first place. Bulbapedia understands this.

Can you list these examples? Also, didn't you say earlier that Canon Pokemon Sequels are very contradictory with each other any way? So, how is this abnormal for the franchise?

Can someone PLEASE stop zooming in on the Bulbapedia sidenote like thats the only thing im saying, and answer what we do about the huge contradictions that go against mainline in general. Even if its secondary canon, what does it matter if it all gets proven false and unusable? We dont use it? Then theres a bunch of profiles that dont consider it while a few do?

Yes.

 

[Bobsican]

Reminder that each site, especially fanmade ones, have different opinions and standards, often wikies only treat the dub as the canon version (cough the Yu-Gi-Oh wiki), have no concept of a secondary canon (cough the Kingdom Hearts wiki), or even straight up spread misinformation in lack of activity (cough the Klonoa wiki acting as if the last game was non-canon when it isn't). The sheer difference in standards that can't be assumed, especially out of the minimal userbase overlap (if any) thus results on any arguments of this kind requiring to actually cite and evaluate the reasonings behind such conclusions, as much one would cite the sources Wikipedia gives over a given Wikipedia article directly.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Reminder that each site, especially fanmade ones, have different opinions and standards, often wikies only treat the dub as the canon version (cough the Yu-Gi-Oh wiki), have no concept of a secondary canon (cough the Kingdom Hearts wiki), or even straight up spread misinformation in lack of activity (cough the Klonoa wiki acting as if the last game was non-canon when it isn't). The sheer difference in standards that can't be assumed, especially out of the minimal userbase overlap (if any) thus results on any arguments of this kind requiring to actually cite and evaluate the reasonings behind such conclusions, as much one would cite the sources Wikipedia gives over a given Wikipedia article directly.

Things are non-canon in KingdomHearts? I thought the meme of the community is that everything including the crossovers are canon.

 

[Jinx666]

The Bulbapedia point has been hammered home for two pages. If at this point you can't understand why a fan wiki shouldn't take precedent over official statements, then there is no point arguing further. We aren't going to change each others mind.

I literally do???? I literally spent that entire post saying its not a main point and doesnt 'take precedence'.

There are no official statements that deny it whatsoever however.

Can you list these examples? Also, didn't you say earlier that Canon Pokemon Sequels are very contradictory with each other any way? So, how is this abnormal for the franchise?

I dont play Masters EX (and i shouldnt need to to comment before you go off), but off the top of my head

• Most, if not all the Champions of the regions are still considered the champion, despite the fact they would have lost, such as Leon and Cynthia
• Characters forgetting mainline storybeats (Such as the XY protagonists not knowing what Xerneas is)
• The multiple dupe legendaries that get given to a ton of other characters (when lore-wise, theres usually only 1, or if not ones from displaced times and dimensions via Hoopa or Ultra Space. which is barely ever confirmed), when theres no other reason than fanservice why they would be given as such.
• Male and Female protagonists that dont coexist in the mainline having completely separate and mismatched parts of the story shared amongst eachother. This has been circumvented a bit by their treatment of Juliana and Florian, but it doesnt account for most of the other protags.

No, i didnt say that. The extent of how much i think that would be based around the separate continuities of the game versions (Such as whether N owns Zekrom or Reshiram, or the other box legendaries), but that just ties into how difficult Pokemon protag profiles are to make based on mainline.

Its different however because contradictions between two MAINLINE games, is different to a contradiction to the mainline canon and a gacha mobile crossover game. All main stories will contradict themselves in some way eventually, but we can at least separate 'secondary canon' from 'main canon'

Yes.

You can say 'Yes' as bluntly as you want, but thats only going to welcome more disorganisation and inconsistency with the pages that no one seems to want to be prepared to manage.

 

[Jinx666]

Reminder that each site, especially fanmade ones, have different opinions and standards, often wikies only treat the dub as the canon version (cough the Yu-Gi-Oh wiki), have no concept of a secondary canon (cough the Kingdom Hearts wiki), or even straight up spread misinformation in lack of activity (cough the Klonoa wiki acting as if the last game was non-canon when it isn't). The sheer difference in standards that can't be assumed, especially out of the minimal userbase overlap (if any) thus results on any arguments of this kind requiring to actually cite and evaluate the reasonings behind such conclusions, as much one would cite the sources Wikipedia gives over a given Wikipedia article directly.

Unless you've got dirt on Bulbapedia, i dont know why you're holding them to this standard.
Unlike a battleboarding community like VSBW, they've got no agenda on what they would think to treat as canon or not. Ive never said to just blindly follow what 'fan wikis' are saying, but they're still a reliable source of info for Pokemon that have been doing this for YEARS.

Its literally like referencing a scientific paper from a credible source. Insight from experts outside of this wiki, if we genuinely want to be fair when we consider the canon of Pokemon rather than just making it a soup, shouldnt just be disregarded completely with people pretending like its been contradicted by official statements (it hasnt).

Can yall PLEASE stop zooming in on the wrong things here now? Can we actually talk about how Masters EX contradicts itself from mainline left and right to be considered like its a canon aftermath of all the games?

 

[Bobsican]

Things are non-canon in KingdomHearts? I thought the meme of the community is that everything including the crossovers are canon.

It's a meme for a reason, the manga and games not made by Square Enix are explicitly non-canon for example, VSBW accepts the novels as the main authors of the game series are directly involved and there's been statements of such media going into more detail than the games in some areas, but the KH Wiki prefers to minimize inferences and just treats it as another canon, but that's derailing.

Unless you've got dirt on Bulbapedia, i dont know why you're holding them to this standard.
Unlike a battleboarding community like VSBW, they've got no agenda on what they would think to treat as canon or not. Ive never said to just blindly follow what 'fan wikis' are saying, but they're still a reliable source of info for Pokemon that have been doing this for YEARS.

Its literally like referencing a scientific paper from a credible source. Insight from experts outside of this wiki, if we genuinely want to be fair when we consider the canon of Pokemon rather than just making it a soup, shouldnt just be disregarded completely with people pretending like its been contradicted by official statements (it hasnt).

Can yall PLEASE stop zooming in on the wrong things here now? Can we actually talk about how Masters EX contradicts itself from mainline left and right to be considered like its a canon aftermath of all the games?

As if this has some agenda to begin with, that's just a poisoning the well fallacy, the intent behind something is irrelevant if it's correct. Beyond that, I'll cite this rule:

Please refrain from creating content revision threads that consist solely of links to off-site sources (such as YouTube, Reddit, other VS forums, etc.) and have no discernible arguments of their own.

• Many of these sources are not made with our specific standards in mind, lack proper source references, and may contain a lot of arguments that have already been discussed or are useless for the purpose of the relevant threads, which makes them hard to evaluate. As such, it is highly encouraged that when creating a content revision thread based on off-site sources, our members should specify their core arguments in detail with relevant evidence.

Yeah, if you want to go against this you'd require a site-wide CRT on this standard, if you want to use it for any meaningful result you'll have to extract the substance and argue in defense of such point of view.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

For the love of God please let a mod see this and agree so this can be closed

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Proposals looks good to me.