Dark Tower: Gan tier 0

[Antvasima]

I think we should put the thread on hold since the OP stated they couldn't continue (for now?) or perhaps we can just settle it without OP, but it seems a bit unfair for him.

Maybe @Gewsbumpz_dude and other members are willing to continue to argue here? If @Jason_Voorhees1986 has permanently left our community, it seems unnecessary to wait for him if improvements may be possible here.

However, I can look for other knowledgeable members to ping here.

 

[SweetDao]

Maybe @Gewsbumpz_dude and other members are willing to continue to argue here? If @Jason_Voorhees1986 has permanently left our community, it seems unnecessary to wait for him if improvements may be possible here.

However, I can look for other knowledgeable members to ping here.

Seems fair, yes.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

This must be what it is like to be a staff member on this wiki. Get pinged 30 god damn times in quick succession, all mostly by the same guy.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @Shiedaisthepeak @Protector_Hunk

What do you think about Jockey's evaluation above here?

 

[Antvasima]

This must be what it is like to be a staff member on this wiki. Get pinged 30 god damn times in quick succession, all mostly by the same guy.

Well, we do need your help here, and my own situation is far more extreme than that.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[Re5yh]

Agree with 0

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

Books and movies exist in the same "omniverse" that is made by a single Author - Stephen King, so there are no contradictions and copyright issues here.



Cool. Pennywise/Deadlights can exist outside of the Tower, as well as Gan, The Crimson King, The Crimson King's family (a bunch of Todash Space Monsters).
There is no reason to scale Pennywise/Deadlights beyond Gan and the Crimson King.



Huge scan

Gan and The Crimson King are the only big players who can manipulate fate and authors in this verse:







The Dark Tower states that what we call fiction actually exists out there somewhere in reality in some form. Authors, artists, etc imaginations touch on these other worlds and they write/draw/whatever these things they see. However they don't create these worlds, Gan does:





The Crimson King/Dis can also do the same:















A little info on how changing reality via the story works:



Another example, when the author makes the leap from the "real world" and arrives in the fictional one:





Sometimes Stephen King will leave Deus Ex Machina's for characters directly:



An example of an artist changing reality through artistic talent - erasing a cancerous sore:



In Duma Key, a child able to change reality with her drawings attracts an ancient entity:







The entity known as Perse also encounters an adult with the same ability, an ability that was accidentally used to kill Candy and also used to fix Wireman's eye:



There's also a King short story where a boy makes his uncle a super advanced computer, which warps reality and time.



And the Macroverse is not beyond the Tower.

The Dark Tower Glossary:



The Tower > The Macroverse.

Eroding the Beams would lead to the Dark Tower collapsing, and all reality, the macroverse, would cease to exist. The Guardians guard and support all the Beams of the Dark Tower, which means they support all the universes of the macroverse, which are contained within the Dark Tower. The macroverse as described in the Gunslinger is a place where an entire infinite universe is less than an atom in a universe on a higher level, up and down forever.



Gan made creation, and locked the Crimson King out of it. This is the reason for his obsession in destroying the Tower:











It is not hard to enter the Todash Space, that exists "beyond the Macroverse":









Maturin is just a "little god":





Gan or the Red King > Author > Maturin and Pennywise/Deadlights, who are bound to their storyline.


The fact that they replaced magical Beams with technology shows the same level of power:





Huge scan.

Long story short: The Final Other = Gan >= The Crimson King > The Dark Tower > Old Ones, the Imperium > the Demon Elementals and the Guardians (including Maturin and IT/Pennywise/Deadlights)

Since all of your arguments are based on the idea that Gan and the Final Other are the same entity, it's enough for me to focus solely on that point. However, please don't take this message as a full return—I'm only here briefly to wrap up the discussion I initially started. Therefore, I kindly ask that any further arguments — including mine — be kept short and to the point. ​

• All of your arguments are based on the idea that Gan's anti-feats also affect the Final Other, so it would be best if we focused solely on that aspect of the discussion. First of all, the word "Gan" is not a name that is definitively assigned to a specific being in the series. Yes, I also agree with the idea that Gan is the ultimate god, but the following texts make things more complicated:​

The Dark Tower, Roland told him. The Tower is Gan, and Gan is the Tower.
—The Gunslinger Born​

Roland left that room, his sense of Deja vu stronger than ever. So was the sense that he had entered the body of Gan himself. —Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower​

There was a sighing voice - Welcome, Roland, thee of Eld. It was the Tower's voice. This edifice was not stone at all, although it might look like this; this was a living thing, Gan himself, likely, and the pulse he'd felt deep in his head even thousands of miles from here had always been Gan's beating life-force.
—Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower​

The god Gan is the animating spirit of the DARK TOWER, and he is the deity most closely associated with the WHITE. Although the Tower appears to be made of stone and glass, it is actually a huge living body. —Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower —Dark Tower Glossary​

• As you can see, the name "Gan" is used here for the Tower. However:

However to others it is a living entity - the sacred incarnation of the great god Gan. —End-World Almanac​

• As you can see, it’s stated here that the Tower is an incarnation of Gan, and as you've probably noticed, the word "Gan" is used to refer both to the Tower and — in your own words — the True Form Gan. Based on the information we have, this clearly indicates that there are two forms: an incarnated form (Tower/Gan) and a True Form Gan. It’s now time to dismiss the anti-feats you've been relying on.​
• In the novel It, Gan is declared to be an omnipotent and pre-existing being:​

This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was. —It Novel​

• However, in Gunslinger Born, it is revealed that Gan took damage and was born from the Prim. But when we consider the context carefully, it becomes clear that the "Gan" being referenced here is actually the Dark Tower itself. This distinction is crucial because once we account for the existence of two separate forms of Gan, these statements directly contradict the portrayal of Gan in It, where he is described as an all-powerful, primordial being.
  

  • Contradictions​

    ​
• In It, it is stated that Gan existed before all universes and everything else, and that he has no connection to the cosmology of the created universes:​

Something new had happened. For the first time in forever, something new. Before the universe there had been only two things. One was Itself and the other was the Turtle. The Turtle was a stupid old thing that never came out of its shell. —It Novel​

When It had burst up into the house on Neibolt Street, meaning to kill them all, vaguely uneasy that It had not been able to do so already (and surely that unease had been the first new thing), something had happened which was totally unexpected, utterly unthought of, and there had been pain, pain, great roaring pain all through the shape it had taken, and for one moment there had also been fear, because the only thing It had in common with the stupid old Turtle and the cosmology of the macroverse outside the puny egg of this universe was just this: all living things must abide by the laws of the shape they inhabit. —It Novel​

This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was.​

• However, the Gan shown in Gunslinger Born acts as the "First Cause" who creates the universes immediately after being born:​

Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. —Gunslinger Born​

• In short, what I’m trying to say is this:
  • There are two forms of Gan.
  • The first is the all-powerful and oldest being.
  • The other is an incarnation of the true form Gan, born from the Prim (the Tower).

Please let's have a respectful and non-insulting discussion.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

@Antvasima @SweetDao @FinePoint
I turned to finish the argument I started. Does my last message seem convincing to you?

 

[Jockey-1337]

In It, it is stated that Gan existed before all universes and everything else, and that he has no connection to the cosmology of the created universes:

Yeah, as well as the Crimson King, his family and/or other Todash Space monsters

There are two forms of Gan.

Yes, the Tower and True Gan. True Gan exists "beyond all authors", and he has an opposition even here - the Crimson King, who exists "beyond all authors" too and has the same plot hax.

The first is the all-powerful and oldest being.

Not really. Even in his limited setting True Gan is not powerful enough to delete the Crimson King, and he is unable to properly protect his creation from the Red King's actions. So the anti-feats downgrade True Gan's powers in one way or another, anyway.


All in all - nothing in the verse has enough feats to reach tier 0, and even High 1-A+ is too much, because the verse doesn't have "all qualities" in its cosmology.

 

[Jockey-1337]

About the Dark Tower's "all possible worlds":

"All possible worlds" may mean different things, depending on the viewpoint and the context. It may mean all historical possibilities, all physical possibilities, all mathematical possibilities, all possibilities from a viewpoint of alethic modality.
On what degree is it possible? - Who knows? The best way to know - to see what happens in the verse.

It is empty and hollow if there is no further explanation of what these possibilities are. It is strange to see that some people use "all possible" stuff as an evidence of the Full Mathematical Multiverse or even EMR in 2025. Because even level 1 and level 3 multiverses have "all possible" stuff:

According to current theories, processes early in the big bang spread matter around with a degree of randomness, generating all possible arrangements with nonzero probability

Have a look at the description of level 3 mv, it also has "all possible" stuff but in a different sense:

QUANTUM MECHANICS PREDICTS a vast number of parallel universes by broadening the concept of "elsewhere." These universes are located elsewhere, not in ordinary space but in an abstract realm of all possible states. Every conceivable way that the world could be (within the scope of quantum mechanics) corresponds to a different universe. The parallel universes make their presence felt in laboratory experiments, such as wave interference and quantum computation.

The Nature of Time MOST PEOPLE THINK of time as a way to describe change. At one moment, matter has a certain arrangement; a moment later, it has another(left). The concept of multiverses suggests an alternative view. If parallel universes contain all possible arrangements of matter (right), then time is simply a way to put those universes into a sequence. The universes themselves are static; change is an illusion, albeit an interesting one.

If physics is unitary, then the standard picture of how quantum fluctuations operated early in the big bang must change. These fluctuations did not generate initial conditions at random. Rather they generated a quantum superposition of all possible initial conditions, which coexisted simultaneously.

^ We see all of this interesting stuff before we reached the level 4 multiverse, which in turn has been nerfed later by Tegmark himself (so even level 4 multiverse is not enough to reach High 1-A+ level):

It has also been suggested that the MUH is inconsistent with Gödel's incompleteness theorem. In a three-way debate between Tegmark and fellow physicists Piet Hut and Mark Alford,[10] the "secularist" (Alford) states that "the methods allowed by formalists cannot prove all the theorems in a sufficiently powerful system... The idea that math is 'out there' is incompatible with the idea that it consists of formal systems."

Tegmark's response[10]: sec VI.A.1 is to offer a new hypothesis "that only Gödel-complete (fully decidable) mathematical structures have physical existence. This drastically shrinks the Level IV multiverse, essentially placing an upper limit on complexity, and may have the attractive side effect of explaining the relative simplicity of our universe."

Source

The Dark Tower is an "at home" version of the properly "full" mathematical multiverse.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

and he is unable to properly protect his creation from the Red King's actions.

He doesn't do this because his true form doesn't interfere with events. There are Guardians to do this job.

Yes, the Tower and True Gan. True Gan exists "beyond all authors", and he has an opposition even here - the Crimson King, who exists "beyond all authors" too and has the same plot hax.

Is there any proof that the Gan in question is the true form Gan? Because such cosmological events always revolve around the Tower. (And no I don't mean similar contexts like the authors (because that's also a valid context in the Tower) is there a point where we can directly understand that the true form is Gan?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I agree with Jockey-1337.

 

[Jockey-1337]

He doesn't do this because his true form doesn't interfere with events. There are Guardians to do this job.

The Guardians are bound to the Tower, they are its part. And their opposition is the Demon Elementals, not the Crimson King.
The Crimson King is the opposition of True Gan.

Is there any proof that the Gan in question is the true form Gan? Because such cosmological events always revolve around the Tower.

Yeah, I posted quotes about Ka (fate) and anti-Ka (anti-fate), and this fact shows that the Crimson King is the opposition. I also posted the evidence that shows that this guy
1) existed before the Tower as well
2) can survive the Tower's destruction
3) and actively works on the Tower's destruction

^ All of this put the Crimson King beyond the Tower, the Guardians and the Demon Elementals.

But even if we "downgrade" the Crimson King's capabilities to the Tower's level, all of Gan's anti-feats are still acceptable for True Gan, because in this situation, he is still unable to protect his creation from beyond, anyway.

I agree with Jockey-1337.

Thank you.

@Jason_Voorhees1986 may I ask u to add his/her name to the list of people who disagree with the OP? Thanks.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

The Guardians are bound to the Tower, they are its part. And their opposition is the Demon Elementals, not the Crimson King.
The Crimson King is the opposition of True Gan.

It has nothing to do with whether Gan has an opponent or not. What I’m trying to explain is that Gan’s true form does not intervene in events.

Yeah, I posted quotes about Ka (fate) and anti-Ka (anti-fate), and this fact shows that the Crimson King is the opposition

I had already said before that Ka’s true form is related not to Gan, but to the Tower (its incarnate form).

If they had indeed outrun its influence, that wouldn't - couldn't - happen. But Susannah now thought ha reached everywhere, even to the Dark Tower. Was, perhaps, embodied by the Dark Tower.
—Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower

1) existed before the Tower as well

Where exactly is it stated that it existed before the Tower? Because there was only one being born alongside the Tower, and that was Maerlyn.

2) can survive the Tower's destruction
3) and actively works on the Tower's destruction

Alright, we're circling back to the point I was making. Right now, you're talking about events happening around the Tower, but these do not directly affect the true form — and why should they? A god can use its avatar like a puppet; there’s nothing wrong with that.

All of this put the Crimson King beyond the Tower, the Guardians and the Demon Elementals.

I had already shared a text earlier explaining that the Guardians cannot be killed by the Crimson King.

According to Mid-World's dash-dinhs, or religious leaders, the Guardians exist beyond the reach of ka, and so cannot be even killed by the Crimson King. We can only hope that they are right. ~ End-World Almanac

Also, as stated, while the Crimson King's entire focus is on the Tower, Gan's true form is completely outside of the events concerning the Dark Tower. There is no clear quote that directly makes the Crimson King the rival of Gan's true form — not the Tower, but the true form itself.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

I agree with Jockey-1337

In which subject? High 1-A+? or 0?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

In which subject? High 1-A+? or 0?

Both.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

@Antvasima
Come on, please get some staff here. I want to finish this job as soon as possible.

 

[Jockey-1337]

@Jason_Voorhees1986
I will copy-paste my counter-arguments from the previous replies to counter (again) your arguments of post #96.

W8 some time, please.

EDIT: W8 1-2 days, please, I'm busy with a lot of stuff IRL.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[Antvasima]

What do our other staff members think that we should do here?

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

@Zensum @Shiedaisthepeak @Protector_Hunk

What do you think about Jockey's evaluation above here?

On High 1-A+?that's the worst counter argument i've ever seen for this High1-A+ tbh i will talk about both of this porsopal and arguments

 

[Antvasima]

What do our other staff members think that we should do here?

Meaning, have any of them replied so far, and if so, what do they think?

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

Meaning, have any of them replied so far, and if so, what do they think?

No. I tagged @FinePoint but they haven't responded yet. He actually already stated that he didn't know about Dark Tower because he seemed to think I was lying about whether Gan had an avatar or not. But in the 89th response, I said a few things that "maybe" could convince him, but he hasn't responded yet.

 

[Jockey-1337]

On High 1-A+?that's the worst counter argument i've ever seen for this High1-A+

Care to elaborate?

It has nothing to do with whether Gan has an opponent or not. What I’m trying to explain is that Gan’s true form does not intervene in events.

Gan is one of the worst fathers in fiction, because he made the creation but doesn't want to protect and/or unable to protect (and I don't know what is worse). It is an anti-feat in one way or another.

I had already said before that Ka’s true form is related not to Gan, but to the Tower (its incarnate form).

If they had indeed outrun its influence, that wouldn't - couldn't - happen. But Susannah now thought ha reached everywhere, even to the Dark Tower. Was, perhaps, embodied by the Dark Tower.
—Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower

Yes, and the Tower contains Maturin, IT and Macroverse within itself. The Tower also contains gods such as Tak, who are greater than Maturin, IT and Macroverse. You will see the explanation soon.

According to Mid-World's dash-dinhs, or religious leaders, the Guardians exist beyond the reach of ka, and so cannot be even killed by the Crimson King. We can only hope that they are right. ~ End-World Almanac

And I already answered on it... I will use green colours for the content I posted before (and copy-pasted again):

According to Mid-World's dash-dinhs, or religious leaders, the Guardians exist beyond the reach of ka, and so cannot be even killed by the Crimson King. We can only hope that they are right. ~ End-World Almanac

Should I say something else?

Also, the Macroverse is not beyond the Tower.

Have a look at The Dark Tower Glossary:

THUNDERCLAP


In Wizard and Glass we learn that the fey realm of Thunderclap sits on the lip of END-WORLD. In Wolves of the Calla, we discover that the dark land of Thunderclap sits just east of the BORDERLANDS, which in turn sit on the eastern edge of MID-WORLD-that was. Thunderclap is the home of the DEVAR-TOI, or Big Prison, where the CRIMSON KING keeps the psychic BREAKERS. The Breakers (who are human) are forced to use their wild talents to erode the BEAMS so that the foundering DARK TOWER will collapse, causing the macroverse to blink out of existence. - The Dark Tower Glossary

BREAKERS (BEAM BREAKERS)
The Breakers of THUNDERCLAP are both the prisoners and the servants of the CRIMSON KING. Imprisoned in the DEVAR-TOI, located in the poisoned land of END-WORLD, they use their psychic abilities to weaken the BEAMS, which hold the DARK TOWER in place. Although few (if any) of the Breakers willingly undertook the job of destroying the macroverse, few of them complain once they experience the diverse pleasures available beneath the Devar’s artificial sun. - The Dark Tower Glossary

BEAMS, PATH OF THE BEAM, BEAM PORTALS
The six Beams are like invisible high tension wires that cross at the nexus of the DARK TOWER and hold the Dark Tower in place. They maintain the integrity of time, space, size, and dimension. The Beams can be sensed by those who stand along their paths. Each end of a Beam is anchored by a Portal. There are twelve Portals, each of which is overseen by an animal GUARDIAN. For information about Beamquakes, see AVEN KAL in the HIGH SPEECH Glossary. - The Dark Tower Glossary

ALL THINGS SERVE THE BEAM
All things work in harmony with the greater tides of fate. All events serve a greater purpose, even if we can’t understand what that purpose might be. - The Dark Tower Glossary

GUARDIANS OF THE BEAM
The Guardians of the Beam are animal totems that protect the Portals located at the terminal points of each BEAM. Some of the Guardians, like the bear Shardik, are cyborgs. Others, such as the Turtle Guardian, are semi-divine. There are six pairs of Guardians, and each pair protects a single BEAM. The Guardian pairs are: Bear-Turtle, Elephant-Wolf, Rat-Fish, Bat-Hare, Eagle-Lion, Dog-Horse. - The Dark Tower Glossary

The Tower > The Macroverse.

Destruction of the Tower = Bye Bye Macroverse.

Maturin is more powerful than IT, but the Turtle is just a "little god" in comparison with Tak:

CAN-TAH
The term can-tah translates as “little god.” The can-tah found in the Dark Tower novels is a tiny scrimshaw turtle. Constant Readers have met the can-tah before, namely in Stephen King’s novel Desperation. In Desperation, the can-tah were tiny demonic sculptures depicting the CAN-TOI—coyotes, snakes, etc.—that served Tak the Outsider. (Tak is short for can-tak, which means "big god.") - The Dark Tower Glossary

And I unearth some extra materials here about Tak:

Tak can reality warp, make concepts into reality. When it took possession of a boy, it used that boys favourite TV shows and toys:

Because Popular Street was surrounded by Nevada desert, now....except it wasn't exactly the real Nevada, more a Nevada of the mind, the one Tak had imagined into being. With Seth's help, of course. - The Regulators

"It's your nephew, Audrey. Isn't it? It's Seth doing this."

"No." She raised a hand and wiped her eyes with it. "Not Seth.

What's inside Seth."

4

"I'll tell you what I can, but there's not much time. The Power Wagons will be back before long."

"Who's inside them?" Old Doc asked. "Do you know, Aud?"

"Regulators. Outlaws. Sci-fi policemen. And this place where we are is partly the Old West as it exists on TV and partly a place called the Force Corridor, which only exists in a TV-cartoon version of the twenty-third century.- The Regulators

"This nightmare we're in is a combination of The Regulators, his favorite Western movie, and MotoKops 2200, his favorite cartoon show. One episode in particular, the one about the Force Corridor. I've seen it lots of times; Seth's got it on not just one but three of his compilation tapes. It's very, very scary for a cartoon show. Veryintense. Seth was terrified of it-he wet the bed three nights in a row after seeing it for the first time-but he was also exhilarated by it. Mostly because of the way the show's continuing characters, both good and bad, band together in order to destroy the scary aliens hiding in the Force Corridor. These aliens are in cocoons Colonel Henry first mistakes for power-generators, and the part where they come bursting out and attack the MotoKops would scare just about anybody. Only I think that in this telling of "The Force Corridor", the cocoons are our houses. And we…"

"We're the scary aliens," Johnny said. He nodded. It all made horridly perfect sense. - The Regulators

"Tak has allowed Seth to play out his fantasies on a wider screen than most of us get, that's all."- The Regulators

Nor is that all that's happening. She turns back to the window, stares out. At first she thinks it's her eyes, something wrong with her eyes — perhaps Tak has melted them somehow, or warped the lenses — but she holds her hands up in front of her and they look all right. No, it's Poplar Street that's wrong. It seems to be twisting out of perspective in some way she can't quite define, angles changing, corners bulging, colors blurring. It's as if reality is on the verge of liquefying, and she thinks she knows why: Tak's long period of preparation and quiet growth is over. The time of action has come. Tak is making, Tak is building. - The Regulators

"Tak is making, that's what Seth told me. Making and building. I don't think the desert where Seth picked it up was it's home; I think that was its prison. Its home is what it may ultimately try to re-create here."- The Regulators

In Desperation, Gan/God makes the demon Tak kidnap the people who are chosen to defeat it:

He looked at each of them in turn, but it was Johnny his eyes came back to. Always Johnny. "He wants what you want. For us to leave."

"Then why did he bring us here in the first place?"

"He didn't."

"What?"

"He thinks he did, but he didn't."

"I don't have any idea what you're - "

"God brought us," David said. "To stop him."

2

In the silence which followed this, Steve discovered he was listening for the wind outside. There was none. He thought he could hear a plane far away-sane people on their way to some sane destination, sleeping or eating or reading U.S. News & World Report - but that was all.

It was Johnny who broke the silence, of course, and although he sounded as confident as ever, there was a look in his eyes (a slidey look) that Steve didn't like much. He thought he liked Johnny's crazed look better the wide eyes and terrified Clyde Barrow grin he'd had on when he put the shotgun up to the cougar's ear and blew its head of f. That there was a half-bright outlaw in Johnny was something Steve knew very well - he'd seen flickers of that guy from the start of the tour, and knew it was the outlaw Bill Harris had feared when he laid down the Five Commandments that day in Jack Appleton's office - but Clyde Barrow seemed to have stepped out and left the other Marinville, the one with the satiric eyebrow and the windbag William F. Buckley rhetoric, in his place.

"You speak as if we all had the same God, David," he said. "I don't mean to patronize you, but I hardly think that's the case."

"But it is the case," David replied calmly. "Compared to Tak, you and a cannibal king would have the same God. You've seen the can tahs, I know you have. And you've felt what they can do."

Johnny's mouth twitched-indicating, Steve thought, that he had taken a hit but didn't want to admit it. "Perhaps that's so," he said, "but the person who brought me here was a long way from God. He was a big blond policeman with skin problems. He planted a bag of dope in my saddlebag and then beat the shit out of me."

"Yes. I know. The dope came from Mary's car. He put something like nails in the road to get us. It's funny, when you think about it-funny-weird, not ha-ha. He went through Desperation like a whirlwind-shot people, stabbed them, beat them, pushed them out windows, ran them down with his car-but he still couldn't just come up to us, any of us, and take out his gun and say 'You're coming with me.' He had to have a . . . I don't know the word." He looked at Johnny.

"Pretext," Steve's erstwhile boss said.

"Yes, right, a pretext. It's like how, in the old horror movies, a vampire can't just come in on his own. You have to invite him in."

"Why?" Cynthia asked.

"Maybe because Entragian - the real Entragian - was still inside his head. Like a shadow. Or a person that's locked out of his house but can still look in the windows and pound on the doors. Now Tak's in my mother - what's left of her - and it would kill us if it could . . . but it could probably still make the best Key lime pie in the world, too. If it wanted to."

David looked down for a moment, his lips trembling, then looked back up at them.

"Him needing a pretext to take us doesn't really matter. Many times what he does or says doesn't matter - it's nonsense, or impulse. Although there are clues. Always clues. He gives himself away, shows his real self, like someone who says what he sees in inkblots."

Steve asked, "If that doesn't matter, what does?"

"That he took us and let other people go. He thinks he took us at random, like a little kid in a supermarket, just pulling any can that catches his eye off the shelf and drop.. ping it into his mom's cart, but that's not what happened."

"It's like the Angel of Death in Egypt, isn't it?" Cynthia said in a curiously flat voice. "Only in reverse. We had a mark on us that told our Angel of Death - this guy Entragian - to stop and grab instead of just going on by."

David nodded. "Yeah. He didn't know it then, but he does now-mi him en tow, he'd say-our God is strong, our God is with us." - Desperation

Gan (the Purpose) and the Crimson King (the Random) controlling beings (all-timers) that exist in the transcental levels (like Tak):

Clotho: [Be content with this: beyond the Short-Time levels of existence and the Long-Time levels on which Lachesis, Atropos, and I exist, there are yet other levels. These are inhabited by creatures we could call All-Timers, beings which are either eternal or so close to it as to make no difference.

[Short-Timers and Long-Timers live in overlapping spheres of existence -on connected floors of the same building if you like - ruled by the Random and the Purpose. Above these floors, inaccessible to us but very much a part of the same tower of existence, live other beings. Some of them are marvelous and wonderful; others are hideous beyond out ability to comprehend, let alone yours. These beings might be called the Higher Purpose and the Higher Random.] - Insomnia

Where exactly is it stated that it existed before the Tower? Because there was only one being born alongside the Tower, and that was Maerlyn.

Bro, it is about 3rd time I'm posting this scan, it is from the comic book.

Alright, we're circling back to the point I was making. Right now, you're talking about events happening around the Tower, but these do not directly affect the true form — and why should they? A god can use its avatar like a puppet; there’s nothing wrong with that.

The Crimson King is slowly winning, he is destroying the Tower. Gan (and I mean True Gan) is unable to stop it. Have a look at the actual feats.

TODASH
Todash is the monster-filled void that exists between worlds. THINNIES are thin places where todash leaks through to our world. - The Dark Tower Glossary

TODASH TAHKEN
The holes in reality. - The Dark Tower Glossary

THINNY
Thinnies are places where the fabric of existence has almost entirely worn away. These cancerous "sores on the skin of existence" have increased in number since the DARK TOWER began to fail. - The Dark Tower Glossary

Also, people, please, stop overestimating Maturin and IT, they are fodders.

The Imperium was stronger than the Guardians and the Demon Elementals.

Tak the Outsider is also stronger than these "little gods".

And all of them exist (or existed) in the Tower, which in turn, is a battleground between Ka and anti-Ka.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Kairach]

Gan is one of the worst fathers in fiction, because he made the creation but doesn't want to protect and/or unable to protect (and I don't know what is worse). It is an anti-feat in one way or another.

One of the worst arguments I've ever seen in this community, not only does it show an extreme lack of understanding of what King writes about, but it also shows a lack of understanding of the religious context behind Gan. I don't care if tier 0 goes through or not for Gan, but the amount of blatantly wrong and personally inspired information that you've said is crazy.

Understand the writer instead of making up contradictions.

 

[Jockey-1337]

One of the worst arguments I've ever seen in this community, not only does it show an extreme lack of understanding of what King writes about, but it also shows a lack of understanding of the religious context behind Gan. I don't care if tier 0 goes through or not for Gan, but the amount of blatantly wrong and personally inspired information that you've said is crazy.

Understand the writer instead of making up contradictions.

I know what I say, and where exactly u see contradictions?

Have a look at this scan as well. @Jason_Voorhees1986


@

ALL HAIL THE CRIMSON KING​

 

[Kairach]

I know what I say, and where exactly u see contradictions?

Maybe understand why I said what I said, I'll give you the summary of my later point: You make up contradictions that don't exist, you interpret things rather than actually understand why said things are said. If you improve in those aspects of understanding, you'll actually make sense instead of your arguments being nonsensical.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Maybe understand why I said what I said, I'll give you the summary of my later point: You make up contradictions that don't exist, you interpret things rather than actually understand why said things are said. If you improve in those aspects of understanding, you'll actually make sense instead of your arguments being nonsensical.

Bro, your subjective opinion is not interesting to me. We are here to powerscale characters, not to discuss some philosophical background.

It is a serious debate - you need to provide scans/quotes from the materials if you disagree with me, not your subjective opinion about the verse or about me.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

Care to elaborate?



Gan is one of the worst fathers in fiction, because he made the creation but doesn't want to protect and/or unable to protect (and I don't know what is worse). It is an anti-feat in one way or another.



Yes, and the Tower contains Maturin, IT and Macroverse within itself. The Tower also contains gods such as Tak, who are greater than Maturin, IT and Macroverse. You will see the explanation soon.




And I already answered on it... I will use green colours for the content I posted before (and copy-pasted again):




Should I say something else?

Also, the Macroverse is not beyond the Tower.

Have a look at The Dark Tower Glossary:











The Tower > The Macroverse.

Destruction of the Tower = Bye Bye Macroverse.

Maturin is more powerful than IT, but the Turtle is just a "little god" in comparison with Tak:



And I unearth some extra materials here about Tak:

Tak can reality warp, make concepts into reality. When it took possession of a boy, it used that boys favourite TV shows and toys:













In Desperation, Gan/God makes the demon Tak kidnap the people who are chosen to defeat it:



Gan (the Purpose) and the Crimson King (the Random) controlling beings (all-timers) that exist in the transcental levels (like Tak):






Bro, it is about 3rd time I'm posting this scan, it is from the comic book.



The Crimson King is slowly winning, he is destroying the Tower. Gan (and I mean True Gan) is unable to stop it. Have a look at the actual feats.







Also, people, please, stop overestimating Maturin and IT, they are fodders.

The Imperium was stronger than the Guardians and the Demon Elementals.

Tak the Outsider is also stronger than these "little gods".

And all of them exist (or existed) in the Tower, which in turn, is a battleground between Ka and anti-Ka.

Thanks for reading.

I don’t mean to be rude, but it seems like about 90% of these texts don’t even explain the things I ask you or our "main topic" directly. I’ve already ignored matters like Maturin and Pennywise just to steer the discussion straight to Gan. Anyway.

Gan is one of the worst fathers in fiction, because he made the creation but doesn't want to protect and/or unable to protect (and I don't know what is worse). It is an anti-feat in one way or another. —You

Here is where the biggest disagreement arises. Can you provide evidence for this? Because it is not necessarily a given that a god must protect the universe it created. And Gan doesn’t even care about that:

Known in folklore as the "Great Turtle Upon Whose Shell the World Rests," legend has it that it was Maturin who caught the world upon his back shortly after it was created by Gan. Had Maturin not been there, all of Existence would have fallen into oblivion. —End-World Almanac

As you can see, from the very beginning, he does not intend to protect creation. And where is it stated that this is an anti-feat?

Maturin is more powerful than IT, but the Turtle is just a "little god" in comparison with Tak:

Is there direct evidence that the mentioned Turtle is Maturin? Because the phrase "In Desperation, can-tah are small demonic figurines depicting the CAN-TOI (coyotes, snakes, etc.) that serve Tak the Outsider" doesn’t at all match Maturin and sounds cryptic—especially since there are multiple of them.

In Desperation, Gan/God makes the demon Tak kidnap the people who are chosen to defeat it:

I will answer this.

Bro, it is about 3rd time I'm posting this scan, it is from the comic book.

Here, it is only said that the Crimson King was cast out of creation with his family when the Tower created the universes, and the timing is very "uncertain." But if we clarify this, the Tower and Maerlyn come first, and then the Crimson King appears through the Crimson Queen, which places him after the Tower’s emergence in the timeline. Even if the Crimson King does exist simultaneously with the Tower, that does not currently imply that something is changing. Coexisting with the Tower is not an anti-feat for Gan.

But Gan was not the only demiurge to arise from that primordial magical soup. And just as night inevita-bly follows day, and as the ki box must sit below the heart and the head, so that which came after the bright light of Gan dragged like a heavy shadow. What bub-bled up from the depths of the Prim with a great burping stench of decay was the force of the Outer Dark, the ki'box of eternity. And out of that ki box stepped a being that looked like the creatures that would later be called human, but human it was not. The firstborn of the Outer Dark was an agent of magic, and it called itself Maerlyn. —Gunslinger Born

But the survival of Maerlyn's demonic spheres was not Arthur's only worry. Though the royal couple was visited by every physician and midwife in the realm, Queen Rowena remained barren. Instead it was the Crimson Queen who kindled. Within a year, she gave birth to a child that was both man and spider and she declared him Arthur's heir. As his father had sworn, the Red Prince was bound to the Tower. But whereas a human child would have been bound to defend it, Arthur's monstrous child was determined to destroy it. All-World's peace was over before it had properly begun. But ka is a wheel and as it turns, even the fortunes of the wicked must change. Crouched in his cave, staring into his scrying crystal, Maerlyn had a vision that disturbed him. Based on that vision, he made a prophecy to the Crimson Queen. Her offspring would thrive, spreading a new kind of chaos throughout the multiple worlds. Yet one day a human kinsman would arise to challenge him. Though mortal, this child of Eld would darkle and tinct like a creature of magic. He would pursue the servants of the Prim from century to century and from one level of reality to another. This human child would be named Roland, and he would be the Tower's final champion. As a warrior of the White, he would destroy the Outer Dark. Unless he was destroyed, he would kill the Crimson Prince and rein in the power of the Prim forever. —Gunslinger Born

The Crimson King is slowly winning, he is destroying the Tower. Gan (and I mean True Gan) is unable to stop it. Have a look at the actual feats.

This text seemed like a blatant lie to me. Because right now, you imply that true-form Gan is actively trying to stop the Crimson King but failing. However, as I’ve said many times, true-form Gan does not have the concern of protecting the universes. He only holds the universes together as an incarnated manifestation. Is there any direct text that states true-form Gan actually wants to protect the universes but cannot?

 

[FinePoint]

@Antvasima @SweetDao @FinePoint
I turned to finish the argument I started. Does my last message seem convincing to you?

It does, actually.

I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to considering the existing anti-feats as not applying to Gan's true form, which the additional context seems to support.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I disagree with Tier 0, simply because the Final Other doesn't meet Tier 0 requirements;

He was flying past the Turtle now, and even at his tremendous skidding speed, the Turtle's plated side seemed to go on and on to his right. He thought dimly of riding in a train and passing one going in the other direction, a train that was so long it seemed eventually to stand still or even move backward. He could still hear It, yammering and buzzing, Its voice high and angry, not human, full of mad hate. But when the Turtle spoke, Its voice was blanked out utterly. The Turtle spoke in Bill's head, and Bill understood somehow that there was yet Another, and that Final Other dwelt in a void beyond this one. This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was.

Suddenly he thought he understood: It meant to hrust him through some wall at the end of the universe and into some other place (what that old Turtle called the macroverse) where It really lived; where It existed as a titanic, glowing core which might be no more than the smallest mote in that Other's mind.

• Firstly, the statement that the Final Other dwells in a Void beyond this one is an anti-feat for Tier 0. They don't dwell anywhere.
  • Supraessential Existence: As it transcends all divisions and inequalities that qualify any given object as "This, not that" or "That, not this," a Tier 0 has no borders or outlines that delimit its existence, and in being totally unlimited, it thus exists as no particular thing whatsoever.
• This is reiterated in the Omnipotence Page.
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence: By nature, a Tier 0 does not exist in dimensional space, not being circumscribed by any sort of numerical coordinate, nor taking up any sort of volume. Neither, for the matter, is it in a higher "meta-space," inasmuch as this still entails some notion (However disanalogous) of being in a specific location, apart from somewhere else, and thus a constricting particularity which must be transcended. In the truest sense, it is nowhere at all.
• This is tied to the fact that there is no other information about this Final Other, aside from some R > F Transcendence, and also no evidence that the Final Other is even related to Gan in the first place.

 

[Re5yh]

I agree with @ActuallySpaceMan42

 

[FinePoint]

I disagree with Tier 0, simply because the Final Other doesn't meet Tier 0 requirements;

Well, I think this may be unfairly strict.

Technically, a void doesn't actually exist, so "existing in it" doesn't really imply existing anywhere real.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Well, I think this may be unfairly strict.

Technically, a void doesn't actually exist, so "existing in it" doesn't really imply existing anywhere real.

Since a Tier 0 is unbound by time and change, its creation of all things must not be seen as any kind of event. Since it generates multiplicity and duality itself, this act of creation occuring "From nothing" must not be pictured as an entity creating the universe inside some void of emptiness, either (As that would imply a pre-existent distinct thing "alongside" the Tier 0 itself and in independence from it). The being, as it were, would have created the void itself instead.

 

[FinePoint]

See above.

Well, you've now established a criteria where an author isn't allowed to really depict this character or any of their actions in any way at all.

So, while I understand Ultima's point conceptually, I respectfully disagree that we can't make an exception for specific portrayal like we do with a wide variety of other things in a fictional context and especially with the higher tiers.

That is to say, if once being depicted to exist in a void is the only argument against Tier 0, that we can probably just assume this void and the character in question are part of the same abstract entity.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

Firstly, the statement that the Final Other dwells in a Void beyond this one is an anti-feat for Tier 0. They don't dwell anywhere.

The quote states that the Final Other “dwelt in a void beyond this one,” but the scene takes place entirely within Bill’s mind and is based on his subjective intuition. The word “dwelt” here may not imply a physical residence but rather a symbolic or mental form of existence. In fact, since it is explicitly stated that Gan contains the Deadlights within his own mind, this void might be a part or projection of Gan’s consciousness. The void itself is extremely undefined. The best we can do is clarify its nature through additional contextual evidence.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Well, you've now established a criteria where an author isn't allowed to really depict this character or any of their actions in any way at all.

I would disagree:

• For Marvel, we have a Tier 0 Being that is the True Reality behind all things, that underlines everything and duality.
• For The Quiet, we have a being that just 'is' itself, having no contrast, and being the existence that is the ground to existence.

They don't dwell anywhere; they simply 'are'. This is the whole idea behind Tier 0.

That is to say, if once being depicted to exist in a void is the only argument against Tier 0, that we can probably just assume this void and the character in question are part of the same abstract entity.

It's not. It's the simple fact that, outside of containing the Cosmology in their mind, they show no other attributes of a Tier 0 Being. There's no information on them aside from existing in their mind and them being an author of all things. We shouldn't be making something this vague, Tier 0, and add an anti-feat on top of that, and it all falls apart.

 

[Jason_Voorhees1986]

This is tied to the fact that there is no other information about this Final Other, aside from some R > F Transcendence, and also no evidence that the Final Other is even related to Gan in the first place.

Actually, the Final Other is indeed Gan. It’s not necessary to explicitly call the Other “Gan.” In the Dark Tower series, Gan is the only known author of the stories, and in the text, the Other is referred to as the author of everything.

"Are you Gan?" he asked abruptly, not knowing why this question came to him-only that it was the right question. "No," King said at once. Blood ran into his mouth from the cut on his head and he spat it out, never blinking. "Once I thought I was, but that was just the booze. And pride, I suppose. No writer is Gan-no painter, no sculptor, no maker of music.

Would you risk destroying that world as well as this, and the other worlds sai King (Stephen King) has touched with his imagination, and drawn from? For it was not he that created them, you know. To peek in Gan's navel does not make one Gan, although many creative people seem to think so. Would you risk it all?"

This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was.