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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

StrymULTRA said:
MY MAN YOU'RE IGNORING THE EXISTENCE OF THE TRUE FORM.
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Oh, so both. Yeah, I obviously have very little respect for the Arceus profile, given how much of it seems to be guesswork, and also because a lot of it was literally just made up in the uploader's head like it having Eternatus powers and Wonder Guard and shit, so I'm one of the last people you'll ever find going "Erm, well Arceus just swoops in and solos everyone anyway".

Especially because most people outside VSBW have him at 6-B
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
"No." is certainly a fun way of debunking someone, isn't it?
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I dont have to 'debunk' the fact you're the only person here trying to overbloat Pokemon (when its not supported well enough as is) for the sake of being mad about a death battle outcome a decade ago.

Literally what 'war' are you even talking about??? Can you stop trying to make this a hostile environment
 
Jinx666 said:
I dont have to 'debunk' the fact you're the only person here trying to overbloat Pokemon (when its not supported well enough as is) for the sake of being mad about a death battle outcome a decade ago.

Literally what 'war' are you even talking about??? Can you stop trying to make this a hostile environment
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But I'm not "overbloating" Pokemon at all. I'm just giving it what it's always had. Do you seriously think everything I ever do is because of the Death Battle?

There is no war, I'm just talking hypothetically. You should practice what you preach.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
But I'm not "overbloating" Pokemon at all. I'm just giving it what it's always had. Do you seriously think everything I ever do is because of the Death Battle?
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The verse doesnt need a profile for every single random lawnmower or separate entity when its already outdated and unorganised across the board. That is exactly the definition of overvloating. Have fun making your own profiles ig but there is 0 priority in making more profiles right now because you want to build 'an army' (whatever that means).

And yeah, i do. You've admitted it yourself that Tai vs Red was what put you on like this, and its why you're still arguing about it in the comment section to this day.
 
Jinx666 said:
The verse doesnt need a profile for every single random lawnmower or separate entity when its already outdated and unorganised across the board. That is exactly the definition of overvloating. Have fun making your own profiles ig but there is 0 priority in making more profiles right now because you want to build 'an army' (whatever that means).

And yeah, i do. You've admitted it yourself that Tai vs Red was what put you on like this, and its why you're still arguing about it in the comment section to this day.
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A LOT of Trainer profiles like Cynthia are outdated but that's just about it. No it isn't, because I'm not contributing to that, and nobody thinks we have more profiles than we need. It was a metaphor.

That's what made me hate Digimon, not what makes me do literally everything I do in VS to this day.
 
I am heavily on the side of less but higher quailty profiles. More so in this case.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
A LOT of Trainer profiles like Cynthia are outdated but that's just about it. No it isn't, because I'm not contributing to that, and nobody thinks we have more profiles than we need. It was a metaphor.

That's what made me hate Digimon, not what makes me do literally everything I do in VS to this day.
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You need to touch grass.
 
I mean im still of the opinion we shouldnt be scaling post-game optional rematches to the literal box legendaries just because the protag is capable of 'fighting' or 'using' it against them if the actual player deems it. Theres no canonical confirmation on which way it goes (and if anything it would be the use of the mandatory master ball the player is given), theres no canon confirmation the player even struggles in these rematches (Gym Leaders shouldnt suddenly be on the same level as the champions just because they're using whats probably their standard team outside of mandated gym battles.), and we've all established we dont equate the game-mechanic levelling system to how actually canonically strong the pokemon is. And obviously, Masters EX scaling is not canon, so we cant cross them over.

Feels like someone just wants a masse of Tier 2 profiles attributed to the verse, and even then its still inferior to Digimon (which doesnt matter because we dont scale on the basis of trying to 'beat' another verse for a professional and unbiased outlook)
 
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Jinx666 said:
I mean im still of the opinion we shouldnt be scaling post-game optional rematches to the literal box legendaries just because the protag is capable of 'fighting' or 'using' it against them if the actual player deems it. Theres no canonical confirmation on which way it goes (and if anything it would be the use of the mandatory master ball the player is given), theres no canon confirmation the player even struggles in these rematches (Gym Leaders shouldnt suddenly be on the same level as the champions just because they're using whats probably their standard team outside of mandated gym battles., and we've all established we dont equate the game-mechanic levelling system to how actually canonically strong the pokemon is. And obviously, Masters EX scaling is not canon, so we cant cross them over.
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I agree with this
 
Jinx666 said:
I mean im still of the opinion we shouldnt be scaling post-game optional rematches to the literal box legendaries just because the protag is capable of 'fighting' or 'using' it against them if the actual player deems it. Theres no canonical confirmation on which way it goes (and if anything it would be the use of the mandatory master ball the player is given), theres no canon confirmation the player even struggles in these rematches (Gym Leaders shouldnt suddenly be on the same level as the champions just because they're using whats probably their standard team outside of mandated gym battles.), and we've all established we dont equate the game-mechanic levelling system to how actually canonically strong the pokemon is. And obviously, Masters EX scaling is not canon, so we cant cross them over.

Feels like someone just wants a masse of Tier 2 profiles attributed to the verse, and even then its still inferior to Digimon (which doesnt matter because we dont scale on the basis of trying to 'beat' another verse for a professional and unbiased outlook)
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Alright, then the profiles are up to date and have no reason to be changed.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
Alright, then the profiles are up to date and have no reason to be changed.
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Well no they arent. Because their stats or whatever we scale them to arent the only thing that matter to the profile. The formatting, additional abiities and reasonings also need updating.

All profiles that do use this wonky reasoning to try to scale to Low 2-C, despite not being applicable should also be made to match
 
Jinx666 said:
Well no they arent. Because their stats or whatever we scale them to arent the only thing that matter to the profile. The formatting, additional abiities and reasonings also need updating.

All profiles that do use this wonky reasoning to try to scale to Low 2-C, despite not being applicable should also be made to match
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All of those being extremely negligible for Pokemon profiles.

Because apparently Brendan, Elio, Gloria, etc all just spammed Master Balls at every Legendary they ever faced so zero scaling is allowed.
 
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Jinx666 said:
I mean im still of the opinion we shouldnt be scaling post-game optional rematches to the literal box legendaries just because the protag is capable of 'fighting' or 'using' it against them if the actual player deems it.
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I mean in the narrative as well as gameplay they are usually meant to be a challenge for a post legendary player.
Jinx666 said:
Theres no canonical confirmation on which way it goes (and if anything it would be the use of the mandatory master ball the player is given)
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The Delta Episode being after the box legendary means they need more then one master ball in that at least.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
All of those being extremely negligible for Pokemon profiles.

Because apparently Brendan, Elio, Gloria, etc all just spammed Master Balls at every Legendary they ever faced so zero scaling is allowed.
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Was clearly talking about the box-legendary that the player catches. They only get 1 Master ball most of the time, and otherwise the vast majority of other obtainable legendaries for the player are purely optional side quests that dont hold narrative to the story.

This is dipping into composite player rather than the actual named canon characters like Brendan. This also does not mean that random characters you're allowed the option to fight scale to the legendaries, since theres no way to determine they canonically fought the legendary, or even managed to do any damage to any comparable Pokemon most of the time.
Lou_change said:
I mean in the narrative as well as gameplay they are usually meant to be a challenge for a post legendary player.
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It isnt a part of the main story most of the time, so theres no narrative reasoning behind it.

Gameplay is based on the levelling mechanic system, which isn't applicable to the actual powerscaling. Maylene for example, is not on the level of Dialga/Palkia/Cynthia/Elite Four etc, just because she has an optional rematch team solely for the point of post-game, as opposed to holding any significance to legnedaries unlike someone like Zinnia.
Lou_change said:
The Delta Episode being after the box legendary means they need more then one master ball in that at least.
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No it doesnt. Its case by case. Delta Episode forces you to fight and catch Rayquaza (who narratively is choosing to 'accept you' as a trainer, which certainly helps the process), so its fair to say they get rayquaza. However, its not fair to say that any trainer you can choose to fight post-Delta Episode also scales to Rayquaza. People are severely mixing up the difference between a canon intepretation of what the player concretely does as opposed to the optional player-choice. It's why mainline player profiles just...do not work.
 
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I don’t like the logic of “if anything they used the Master Ball against the box legends” since that’s only one of many different ways the player character can legitimately win those fights. For the player characters themselves, any realistic way of getting through the fight should be considered as “canon” and none should take priority over the other.

As long as there’s a good reason for other characters having some scaling to them then that’s fair game imo, but there should be more scrutiny than just “the character fights them” especially in the post-game. The player character should probably just be ignored unless there’s any kind of comparison to be made between them and the other character.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
I don’t like the logic of “if anything they used the Master Ball against the box legends” since that’s only one of many different ways the player character can legitimately win those fights. For the player characters themselves, any realistic way of getting through the fight should be considered as “canon” and none should take priority over the other.
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You're right in that its not concrete, but theres literally only two ways they can 'win the fight'. Either make it faint, or use the provided master ball (which is what Master Ball's entire purpose is for, since legendaries used to be hard to catch.)

It doesn't work if you put all of those ways at the same time as canon. The answer is, theres no truly canon way it turns out. Only the outcome.
I know its more attractive to say they beat the legendary into submission, and thats fine for the protag player to scale to, but fairly, it shouldnt be used if its going to be an excuse to scale every single random trainer you battle post-legendary catch
Ghengiroo115 said:
As long as there’s a good reason for other characters having some scaling to them then that’s fair game imo, but there should be more scrutiny than just “the character fights them” especially in the post-game. The player character should probably just be ignored unless there’s any kind of comparison to be made between them and the other character.
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Agree. Pokemon, like most series, doesnt take into consideration the powerscaling implications, but i very much they doubt to intend that any random trainer you can choose to use a legendary against, suddenly scales to their canonical lore level just because of the implications of game levelling-progression
 
Jinx666 said:
However, its not fair to say that any trainer you can choose to fight post-Delta Episode also scales to Rayquaza. People are severely mixing up the difference between a canon intepretation of what the player concretely does as opposed to the optional player-choice. It's why mainline player profiles just...do not work.
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But you can't do league rematches at all until after Delta Episode and the story even progresses if you lose the final fight against Zinnia while using Rayquaza.
 
Lou_change said:
But you can't do league rematches at all until after Delta Episode and the story even progresses if you lose the final fight against Zinnia while using Rayquaza.
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Thats not due to the narrative, thats just post-game content. Theres also different variations of how post-game works with rematches, so im not claiming that its ALL the same. If anything, Scarlet and Violet does have an example of canonical gym battle rematches since thats a whole quest given by Geeta in order to unlock the tournament storyline. This doesnt mean that any average trainer you battle in the postgame is suddenly scaled up to the legendary, since theres no canonical indication of a struggle, let alone them fighting your legendary.

Doing quick research, it sounds like an oversight from the devs with that, since theres no unique dialogue or retry unlike most every other battle in the games, but nonetheless Zinnia isnt relevant in this because i think she definitely can scale given her prominence and necessity to battle. Unlike gym leader rematches which are optional side quests that dont have any canon indication, other than game-levels which we dont take to heart, that they are on par with the player.

This is one of the many, many issues with trying to composite every single pokemon game and unique experience of possibility of playthrough in general. Either way, we should be far more selective of who gets the Legendary scaling based on their actual canon role in the story, as opposed to just being a post-game rematch the player has a choice in doing.
 
Jinx666 said:
Doing quick research, it sounds like an oversight from the devs with that, since theres no unique dialogue or retry unlike most every other battle in the games, but nonetheless Zinnia isnt relevant in this because i think she definitely can scale given her prominence and necessity to battle. Unlike gym leader rematches which are optional side quests that dont have any canon indication, other than game-levels which we dont take to heart, that they are on par with the player.
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You can also flee or lose to Deoxys I assume this is because you destroyed the main threat of the meteor. I guess they thought letting you pass either way spared the pacing better after Zinnia's fight.

Also it seems only the elite 4 and Steven have rematch after the episode. Would they have already scaled.
 
Lou_change said:
Also it seems only the elite 4 and Steven have rematch would they have already scaled.
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For now yeah, Elite Four to a lesser extent and Champions have a much more solid argument given their prominent title and the fact they're collectively the final bosses of the main storyline. Depending on whereabouts their box legendary scales ofc, though in itself its just Pokemon being awkward.
 
Sounds like a whole lot of you making excuses for why they wouldn't scale. What's your excuse for why Gloria or Chase or the Pokemon GO guy can't scale, since you can only Master Ball AFTER you reduce their HP to zero? What's your excuse for games that are absolutely full of Legendary Pokemon, like B2W2, ORAS, or USUM? Do you just think they wasted decades at the Check ID area waiting for Master Balls?

There's honestly something so sinister in wanting to weaken the Pokemon verse just because a lot of things are optional.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Think their problem is only with like Post-Game rematches, not the actual protags.
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It's both. Although that would still be stupid asf, because the protagonist very obviously has trouble with future bosses after the Legendary and doesn't just flick everyone including the rematch Champion. Leon is very notably Super Effective against the Legendary you are scripted to catch.

Beating a Legendary and adding it to your team would include not only using the thing, but also training it up to his other teammates' standards, which includes stuff like Super Training and potentially Hyper Training.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
Sounds like a whole lot of you making excuses for why they wouldn't scale. What's your excuse for why Gloria or Chase or the Pokemon GO guy can't scale, since you can only Master Ball AFTER you reduce their HP to zero? What's your excuse for games that are absolutely full of Legendary Pokemon, like B2W2, ORAS, or USUM? Do you just think they wasted decades at the Check ID area waiting for Master Balls?

There's honestly something so sinister in wanting to weaken the Pokemon verse just because a lot of things are optional.
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You honestly have no leg to stand on considering you're only doing this to try and put Pokemon above Digimon due to you being brain broken by a Death Battle episode from a decade ago.

No one here is trying to "weaken" the Pokemonverse; they just want to be accurate unlike you.
 
Definitelynotbatman0110 said:
You honestly have no leg to stand on considering you're only doing this to try and put Pokemon above Digimon due to you being brain broken by a Death Battle episode from a decade ago.

No one here is trying to "weaken" the Pokemonverse; they just want to be accurate unlike you.
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If I wanted Pokemon to be above Digimon, I would be arguing for 1-C upgrades, not 2-B. I've moved on from my hatred of Digimon a long time ago.

All Trainers in the verse capping at 6-C is not accurate, I'm sorry to say.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
If I wanted Pokemon to be above Digimon, I would be arguing for 1-C upgrades, not 2-B. I've moved on from my hatred of Digimon a long time ago.

All Trainers in the verse capping at 6-C is not accurate, I'm sorry to say.
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Considering you downplay Digimon, I don't believe you. Digimon will be getting revisions beginning in October so let's bookmark this post of yours. You better not throw a fit when revisions start.
 
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