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Satoru Gojo (The Honored One) Vs Makima (The Control Devil) (Jujutsu Kaisen Vs Chainsaw Man) [49-37-7]

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Gojo is a Japanese citizen so even if he is at the last of the row it's stalemate by both dead. There isn't a action Gojo can do that won't be considered a attack on Makima given that he isn't a freak like Denji who ate Makima (not in the way he wanted to but a W is a W).

But Makima can't control Gojo or harm hm. She can't view Gojo as someone beneath her given the Insane power difference between her and Gojo as well as Gojo's own "Strongest" persona.

This is a very complex stalemate.
 
57Dev said:
Gojo is a Japanese citizen so even if he is at the last of the row it's stalemate by both dead. There isn't a action Gojo can do that won't be considered a attack on Makima given that he isn't a freak like Denji who ate Makima (not in the way he wanted to but a W is a W).

But Makima can't control Gojo or harm hm. She can't view Gojo as someone beneath her given the Insane power difference between her and Gojo as well as Gojo's own "Strongest" persona.

This is a very complex stalemate.
Click to expand...
Is this a vote for deku
 
CastoriceTheFifth said:
Is this a vote for deku
Click to expand...
Against Makima ? He would win. While a "Japanese Citizen" he is 200 years from the future so won't be included in the government registry during Makima's time. And well he doesn't need to kill Makima a 126 million times. He just needs to punch the ground once. Any country level non jap effortlessly crushes Makima. Funny though, DB Evolution Goku.

Against Gojo ? Well that's a debate because of Infinity.
 
57Dev said:
Against Makima ? He would win. While a "Japanese Citizen" he is 200 years from the future so won't be included in the government registry during Makima's time. And well he doesn't need to kill Makima a 126 million times. He just needs to punch the ground once. Any country level non jap effortlessly crushes Makima. Funny though, DB Evolution Goku.

Against Gojo ? Well that's a debate because of Infinity.
Click to expand...
Deku here is a vote for inconclusive
 
57Dev said:
Gojo is a Japanese citizen so even if he is at the last of the row it's stalemate by both dead. There isn't a action Gojo can do that won't be considered a attack on Makima given that he isn't a freak like Denji who ate Makima (not in the way he wanted to but a W is a W).

But Makima can't control Gojo or harm hm. She can't view Gojo as someone beneath her given the Insane power difference between her and Gojo as well as Gojo's own "Strongest" persona.

This is a very complex stalemate.
Click to expand...
The extent that makima's contract can revive her is classified as high mid, gojo's ap is high enough to destroy her body beyond her ressurection capabilities.
 
Jaynic1 said:
The extent that makima's contract can revive her is classified as high mid, gojo's ap is high enough to destroy her body beyond her ressurection capabilities.
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1.1 megatons of tnt is gojo's ap while makima's durability is 550 tons... she's getting erased
 
GunshyFever said:
Alright, I'm going to be the one to write Makima's win cons. Feel free to respond however you like or debunk them, since there's a chance I may or may not be active in this thread. I'll go through this bit by bit.

Important note - Makima can also use the abilities of those under her influence, whether they are alive or deceased, even if the abilities originate from devils they had contracts with. Meaning once she takes control of a devil, she can use that devil’s abilities as her own, even after their death, as shown in the scans above. (This is one her profile) So please keep this in mind for the takes below.​


Makima's wincons​

1) Biological Manipulation -

Makima can mess with Gojo's internal organs, including critical ones like the brain. This can severely disrupt his ability to use RCT, focus during battle and formulate strategies, causing him to underperform and not fight at his full potential. This ability is rarely used a, but given that she's aware of Gojo’s threat level, it’s more likely she'll use the stronger version of this technique, a focused point attack.

Just to clarify: this is not accepted as "Bang," and in general, it should not be confused with "Bang." Now, this ability spontaneously explodes or severely disrupts the target's internal organs from the inside out. In the Chainsaw Man universe, it was powerful enough to harm the Darkness Devil, a Primal Fear. That alone implies Gojo is in serious danger if he gets hit by this, potentially resulting in instant death or at least incapacitation.

Makima tends to reserve this technique for powerful opponents like Primal Fears, as seen in her fight against the Darkness Devil, where it hindered him significantly. It's a real possibility that Gojo's high status would prompt Makima to use this win con to kill him or push him to the brink of death and utilize her Conquest. And no, Gojo "refreshing his mind" won’t help. Makima’s Conquest is supernatural and not tied to the brain in specific, it cannot be nullified by simply refreshing his brain with RCT and character's like Reze have done the same where they explode their brains, but still remain under the influence of Conquest.

2) BFR (Hell Devil ver) -

The Hell Devil does not require physical contact to remove opponents from the battlefield, which makes it especially useful. Simply removing Gojo bypasses the problem of Infinity, turning the obstacle and its source into a single issue that can be quickly resolved. Makima can achieve this by either forcing her Conquest ability onto the Hell Devil to make it do her bidding, as she typically does or by sacrificing multiple Devil Hunters, with the latter being the more reliable method.

This ability has a moderate chance of being used. Once Makima realizes she can’t harm Gojo with her primary attacks, such as "Bang," which is generally accepted as a form of telekinetic force, she may opt to remove the problem entirely by summoning the Hell Devil to drag Gojo into Hell, effectively neutralizing him.

2.1) BFR (Hell Devil + Princi) -

To make the ability execute more smoothly and efficiently, Makima can send Princi to Hell and order her to summon Gojo through one of her zippers. This makes the BFR far safer and more effective, minimizing the risk of pressured or tampered by Gojo.

2.2) BFR (Eternity Devil) -

This strategy is essentially a more refined version of the Prison Realm, think of it as Prison Realm 2.0 with bug fixes. All Makima needs to do is lure Gojo into a structure, such as a building or other infrastructure. She can do this using her animal manipulation abilities. Through lower lifeforms like a pack of rats, she can travel between locations and use them as mediums to lure Gojo into a chosen spot.

Once Gojo enters the targeted location, Makima can set up a trap using the Eternity Devil. She can then escape via her interdimensional travel while Gojo becomes trapped in a space similar to the Prison Realm, where he can be left to die. Notably, Makima can also prevent the Eternity Devil from revealing itself, as seen in the aquarium arc.

This ability has a moderate chance of being used, roughly on par with the Hell Devil tactic. If Makima realizes she can't deal with Gojo’s Infinity directly, she’s likely to lean into her versatility in her controlled abilities to remove him from the fight altogether.

3) Organic Manipulation -

This ability allows Makima, after drawing blood from her hand, to grow a mold inside Gojo's body, one that cannot be healed or regenerated. This serves as either an instant win con or a massive hindrance to Gojo’s focus, physical condition and overall performance.

Makima can also use this ability more creatively by directing her minions through this devil to grow mold in Gojo’s body from multiple angles, overwhelming him. This coordinated internal assault would ultimately result in Gojo’s death.

The likelihood of this ability being used is comparable to her other options for the same reason.

4) Cosmo -

Makima can give Gojo a taste of an All-Out Halloween, which, depending on the range, can either momentarily or permanently incapacitate him. If Gojo gets up close and personal with Makima, a single Halloween may be enough to affect him, albeit with reduced likely reduced effect. At longer range, the ability requires more time to charge, but guarantees total and permanent incapacitation, hence the term All-Out Halloween.

Unlike Makima’s other abilities, where she can creatively employ various minions through contracts, this technique is unique. It is solely exceptional to Cosmo and Makima, as it cannot be accessed through a standard devil contract. The change of it being used is the same as the others. Morso as a final rebound if needed.

Makima's Advanatges​

1) Reactions & Perception Advantage -
With speed equalization, the rules explicitly state:

Makima's combat speed is High Hypersonic+ (Mach 81.48), while her reaction speed scales massively above Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1390.67). Gojo's combat and reaction speed is listed at Mach 2.86.

This makes her reaction speeds alone 17x faster than Gojo's. So even under speed equalization, Makima's reaction speed is scaled down by the same multiplier as her combat speed.

Plus, Makima's Automatic Precognition, which allows her to see a few seconds into the future, grants her a tactical advantage. Not only can she predict Gojo’s next moves and react accordingly, but she can also perceive his actions before he even performs them, turning him into an open book.

2) Tactical Approach & Clairvoyance -
As stated on her profile:

In short, once Makima becomes aware of Gojo's status and realizes that controlling him directly isn’t viable, she will work from the shadows to analyze him and gauge the scope of his abilities. She’ll rely on her minions to observe strength and capabilities. Makima is an exceptionally quick and perceptive thinker whom is capable of formulating strategies and improvising with her powers in real time, as demonstrated during her fight with the Gun Devil.

And before anyone says anything: no, she did not prepare for that fight. There was no pre-battle planning for the initial takedown of the Gun Devil. What was actually prepared was the plan for Aki to become the vessel, having the Gun Devil’s corpse placed in his body and sent straight to Denji’s front door. That was orchestrated, not the battle itself.

So, once Makima has a solid understanding of Gojo’s mechanics, she will return to the battlefield and actively pursue him using her wide arsenal of options.

Also worth noting: Makima can read minds.
As stated on her profile:

She can eventually figure Gojo out, his abilities, how they work all through his own memories.

3) Enhanced Senses -
As stated on her profile:

With this, it’s clear that Makima effectively has all eyes on Gojo, constantly aware of his location and actions, whether through her own awareness or via her controlled minions. This constant surveillance allows her to anticipate and counter Gojo's strategies in real time.

Makima's Resistances​

1) Infinite Void -
As her profile states:

Prop's for resisting a stronger infinite void.

Conclusion​

Everything above outlines the various ways Makima can achieve victory. You're free to respond or debate these points using Gojo's abilities and showings, but based on the information provided, it's clear to me that Makima holds the tactical advantage, along with a versatile range of win cons and controlled abilities as well as a perception advantage.

For these reasons, I'm casting my vote for Makima.
Click to expand...

Razor said:
Since people will likely not be reading 12 pages of yap just to vote. The summary is that:
Makima's main wincon is biological manipulation, which could kill Gojo.
Gojo's wincon is just about anything in his arsenal. HP, Red, Max blue, Base blue as all of it will one shot Makima.

Makima would land her attack first because of her superior reaction speed and precognition but Gojo could survive her attack for a few seconds, Red and blue would instantly kill Makima however.
There's also the factor of if Makima would even start with the Bio hax in the first place. I say it isn't likely, Gunshy says otherwise. Our reasonings are above
Click to expand...
Page 19 bump of wincons
 
Wouldn't she have a decent chance of escaping cuz she is 17x more faster reaction time than Gojo's everything, which might make Blue/Red/Purple move in slow motion in her PoV?
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Wouldn't she have a decent chance of escaping cuz she is 17x more faster reaction time than Gojo's everything, which might make Blue/Red/Purple move in slow motion in her PoV?
Click to expand...
Blue isnt limited to being used as a projectile, he could spawn it on top of her and makima cant see cursed techniques
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Wouldn't she have a decent chance of escaping cuz she is 17x more faster reaction time than Gojo's everything, which might make Blue/Red/Purple move in slow motion in her PoV?
Click to expand...
1. Makima can't see Cursed Energy/Techniques
2. Blue spawns on top of people. She won't have time to react to it at all.
 
Also, again, I kinda wanna see if Gojo supporters could argue a win for Gojo if we just turned off Speed Equal and gave him prior knowledge + 2km distance
Jaynic1 said:
Blue isnt limited to being used as a projectile, he could spawn it on top of her and makima cant see cursed techniques
Click to expand...
She is still 17x more faster than his thinking speed and she can see the future, she can just move and Gojo might not even be able to perceive it due to the massive speed difference-like IIRC the speed blitz range is much lower than AP Stomp range, which is around 7-8x, and Makima's reaction speed difference is 17x.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Also, again, I kinda wanna see if Gojo supporters could argue a win for Gojo if we just turned off Speed Equal and gave him prior knowledge + 2km distance
Click to expand...
Can't he gets giga stomped. Even in this thread with current conditions. Several people here were terrified of Gojo dying to the contract for some reason that I had to add this into the OP

Refer to this post regarding the chances of Gojo dying to the contract. Mineta from MHA is more likely to get a girlfriend while getting struct by lightning 10 times before Gojo would die. If Makima is ever put into a position where she would die millions of times until Gojo ends up killing himself via the contract even with a massive AP advantage then that means Gojo gets stomped no matter what conditions are set. Basically the contract is a non factor for this fight.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
She is still 17x more faster than his thinking speed and she can see the future, she can just move and Gojo might not even be able to perceive it due to the massive speed difference-like IIRC the speed blitz range is much lower than AP Stomp range, which is around 7-8x, and Makima's reaction speed difference is 17x.
Click to expand...
Reaction speed is how fast you can react. Not how fast you can think (Tho I think Perception and Reaction speed are going through a change soon). And seeing into the future by a few seconds won't help if she can't see the attack due to it being imperceptible to her.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Also, again, I kinda wanna see if Gojo supporters could argue a win for Gojo if we just turned off Speed Equal and gave him prior knowledge + 2km distance

She is still 17x more faster than his thinking speed and she can see the future, she can just move and Gojo might not even be able to perceive it due to the massive speed difference-like IIRC the speed blitz range is much lower than AP Stomp range, which is around 7-8x, and Makima's reaction speed difference is 17x.
Click to expand...
Reaction speed is defined as a single movement in a defined timeframe, which a character has been shown capable of. A series of movements in similar timeframes makes this combat speed, so this term should only be applied for a single, quick movement
Click to expand...
Even with 17x faster reaction speed its not going to let makima blitz or statue gojo. Reaction speed doesnt allow you to do that. And without speed equal makima just stomps. High hypersonic vs supersonic.
 
CastoriceTheFifth said:
Can't he gets giga stomped. Even in this thread with current conditions. Several people here were terrified of Gojo dying to the contract for some reason that I had to add this into the OP

Refer to this post regarding the chances of Gojo dying to the contract. Mineta from MHA is more likely to get a girlfriend while getting struct by lightning 10 times before Gojo would die. If Makima is ever put into a position where she would die millions of times until Gojo ends up killing himself via the contract even with a massive AP advantage then that means Gojo gets stomped no matter what conditions are set. Basically the contract is a non factor for this fight.
Click to expand...
I mean... If Blue can spawn in her and she can't see it-and if we give Gojo prior knowhow-he might be able to pull off a win.
 
Catbowtie said:
INCONCLUSIVE GRACE WON'T BE OVER UNTIL THIRTY YEARS FROM NOW
Click to expand...
Roll with it we're actually cooking rn

image.png
 
CastoriceTheFifth said:
Why prior knowledge
Click to expand...
cuz if Gojo knows Makima's kit (thus, knows she only has one valid way to hurt/kill him) and knows that she vastly out speeds him, he'll be able to make the optimal plan that could net him the win.
Catbowtie said:
INCONCLUSIVE GRACE WON'T BE OVER UNTIL THIRTY YEARS FROM NOW
Click to expand...
Real talk, the forums needs to make a rule about Incon grace-or grace periods in general-due to how this thread turned out... Although, this thread is about as entertaining to me as the Sans vs. craze in the past-and how he managed to stomp a crap-ton of characters due to his kit.
 
Funny Skeleton man beat up Frieza

That Gerard vs Saitama match has 40k views. I NEED to re-do that match because Gerard has the weakness now.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Real talk, the forums needs to make a rule about Incon grace-or grace periods in general-due to how this thread turned out... Although, this thread is about as entertaining to me as the Sans vs. craze in the past-and how he managed to stomp a crap-ton of characters due to his kit.
Click to expand...
This thread doesn't even have a grace problem yet. The thread is only 2 days old so no grace concluded lol.
 
INFINITE PAGES. INFINITE CONTENT. INFINITE PEOPLE READING THROUGH THE THREAD (I've officially lost my mind)
 
Jaynic1 said:
Why do you keep bumping this when some of these win cons arent really valid.
Click to expand...
CastoriceTheFifth said:
It really just looks like yall never reached a mutual conclusion if gunshy themself is still reposting the entire list and makima supporters are stil running with the other wincons as well while both of yall saying the opposite of each other. It doesn’t really matter if I think she’ll pick other options because the summary doesn’t list her “potentials” in the first place for new people to know.
Click to expand...
Page 13 btw. This entire question was already discussed in page 13
 
CastoriceTheFifth said:
Page 13 btw. This entire question was already discussed in page 13
Click to expand...
Eh, I think gushy focusing his arguments on the bio damage to gojo's brain and basing his vote off that specific win con is a concession that the rest of that list isnt valid. Also, the mold section is just straight false, its never said that the damage of the mold cant be regenerated just that regenerating wont get rid of the mold.
 
Jaynic1 said:
Eh, I think gushy focusing his arguments on the bio damage to gojo's brain and basing his vote off that specific win con is a concession that the rest of that list isnt valid. Also, the mold section is just straight false, its never said that the damage of the mold cant be regenerated just that regenerating wont get rid of the mold.
Click to expand...
GunshyFever said:
Having win cons doesn't mean she will use them, which is why they are still considered "valid." However, that doesn't mean she will win because of them. That's just a misunderstanding, my overall conclusion is the same as what you're saying here.

I was and currently am planning to write a summary of our discussion as we mentioned above (i actually did mention it a few times). I just haven't started yet due to sleep and traveling. Which is my bad.

Seems like you already did that for me. And it also seems like newcomers read the args
Click to expand...
I mean this is what he said at the end so pretty sure he never conceded to any of the win cons being invalid
 
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