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Who rocks black better? (Ken Kaneki vs Taiyo Yozakura) [4-8-0] GRACE

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Taiyo's a normal person who attained Someinine, while Kaneki was normal person who attained Ghoul organs, so sure why not.
  • Speed is equalized
  • Post-Cochlea Ken Kaneki is used (616 Kilotons)
  • Taiyo starts in Blooming (318 Kilotons) | True Spring Blooming is Restricted
  • Taiyo has Steel Spider
  • Fight starts in the parking lot of a McDonalds in Arlington, Virginia
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The One Eyed King: NikHelton, Foriaa, DeathSorox, LegendariumofLies (4)

"The Yozakura Family's Secret Psycho": Arkenis, JackofNoTrades068, Doggo, CastoriceTheFifth, Kavopaco, GodEarh, MintyBoi, Catbowtie (8)

Kaneki suggests they go buy coffee instead (Incon):
 
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following, how did either of these charcters end up in the MDVA area????
Some great questions lack great answers. Plus Anime characters boxing near the white and the Pentagon house sounds pretty goofy
For Taiyo though he travelled the United States crushing organizations distantly supporting the main villain of his series and ended up goofing off having subplots in several areas while the story played out.
 
What wincons do both characters have?

As I understand, their height ceiling is High 7-C?
 
What wincons do both characters have?

As I understand, their height ceiling is High 7-C?
For Kaneki, given he has Mid regeneration compared to Taiyo’s low mid, I’d say his best odds would be trying to play the long game outlasting Taiyo even if in the worst case scenario this may mean fighting for several hours. Since Kaneki’s stamina justifications look more impressive.
Given Taiyo is already more powerful and has a durability amplifier (hardening).
One eyed ghouls appear to have Accelerated Development, it’s been a while since I read Tokyo Ghoul, so I don’t know how potent it is before the Post Dragon Key. But Kaneki could slowly climb up to Taiyo’s level if this fight drags out.
Finally on Kaneki’s end, the biggest weakness for a Yozakura is they cannot regenerate and lose their powers if their heart is completely annihilated, but it’s unlikely Kaneki would figure out Taiyo’s powers come from his bloodflow.

For Taiyo’s case, it seems like Kaneki doesn’t have any heat resistance? (Besides maybe his Post dragon Key) based on looking at the profile, so Taiyo could burn him with his electricity so long as he tags Kaneki directly with his blasts and Kaneki doesn’t get to shield with Kagune.
Taiyo’s also got better lifting strength by quite a lot. So grabbing Kaneki’s Kagune and trying to subdue/choke him out could work given he’d be strong enough to eat a lot of Kaneki’s attacks.
I would mention stepping on flowers, his blitz level speed amp, but since Taiyo’s the slower fighter I can’t use that for a main argument.
Taiyo’s own perception enhancement means he can see Kaneki’s attacks as if they’re much slower to dodge or counter more effectively.
Taiyo could also simply knock him out clean with a good punch to the head if he realizes trying to kill him isn’t working thanks to Kaneki’s regeneration.
 
Taiyo's profile has so many clues that it's hard for me to figure out what abilities he has in this state.

But from what I saw in the profiles, Kaneki has better regeneration, more experience, more limbs, RE, speed increase, analytical prediction resistance, and regeneration negation. Piercing damage should also reduce the difference between his AP and the opponent's durability.

Taiyo has an advantage in LS and AP, which will allow him to rip Kaneki's kagune apart early in this fight with his bare hands.
 
One eyed ghouls appear to have Accelerated Development, it’s been a while since I read Tokyo Ghoul, so I don’t know how potent it is before the Post Dragon Key. But Kaneki could slowly climb up to Taiyo’s level if this fight drags out.
This version of Kaneki went from 8-A to 7-C very quickly. In the scenario, this was caused by the return of his memory, but we already had a similar situation at the end of Part 1, when he went from 8-A to 7-C after Arima punched his head. At the end of the fight, he was even able to destroy IXA
Finally on Kaneki’s end, the biggest weakness for a Yozakura is they cannot regenerate and lose their powers if their heart is completely annihilated, but it’s unlikely Kaneki would figure out Taiyo’s powers come from his bloodflow.
Kagune poison also greatly weakens regeneration. Isn't it logical to attack the opponent's heart if it's a human? At least Kaneki is used to fighting opponents who have regeneration cores
For Taiyo’s case, it seems like Kaneki doesn’t have any heat resistance? (Besides maybe his Post dragon Key) based on looking at the profile, so Taiyo could burn him with his electricity so long as he tags Kaneki directly with his blasts and Kaneki doesn’t get to shield with Kagune.
Ghouls have resistance to heat of 4000 degrees Celsius
Taiyo’s also got better lifting strength by quite a lot. So grabbing Kaneki’s Kagune and trying to subdue/choke him out could work given he’d be strong enough to eat a lot of Kaneki’s attacks.
Agree
I would mention stepping on flowers, his blitz level speed amp, but since Taiyo’s the slower fighter I can’t use that for a main argument.
I still don't understand how this rule works. Are arguments with speed boosters simply not counted or does the match itself become invalid?
Taiyo’s own perception enhancement means he can see Kaneki’s attacks as if they’re much slower to dodge or counter more effectively.
Kaneki also has kinetic vision, instinctive reactions, and heightened senses, allowing him to fight with his eyes closed. He is also superior to Urie, who is able to dodge attacks from opponents that surpass his perception
Taiyo could also simply knock him out clean with a good punch to the head if he realizes trying to kill him isn’t working thanks to Kaneki’s regeneration.
It might work, but Kaneki is a skilled fighter.
 
Taiyo's profile has so many clues that it's hard for me to figure out what abilities he has in this state.

But from what I saw in the profiles, Kaneki has better regeneration, more experience, more limbs, RE, speed increase, analytical prediction resistance, and regeneration negation. Piercing damage should also reduce the difference between his AP and the opponent's durability.

Taiyo has an advantage in LS and AP, which will allow him to rip Kaneki's kagune apart early in this fight with his bare hands.
I will mention on experience that Taiyo has been a spy for 6 years at this point, which I’m pretty sure is longer than the entire period of the start of TG to the final arc of Re. If you want a more detailed look at Taiyo’s intellect and skills you can also check his pre timeskip page

For regen negation, is that not just with Quinque’s and not Kaneki’s normal Kagune?

Speed increases can be mitigated with Taiyo’s perception amps and his own speed amp.

On Analytical prediction resistance, Taiyo has trained with and fought characters who resist analytical prediction as well
Taiyo’s attire, the Yozakura Family lounge wear has some damage reduction against pierce damage (his hardening is also good against slashes, you can read in his durability justification), while Taiyo is a swordsman.
So they both have access to piece damage. Of course though the consequences for either of them getting pierced or slashed are different since Kaneki’s regen is better.

RE and more limbs will be a major issue for Taiyo though
I will add though Taiyo is on par with Kyoichiro who fights with Danmaku attacks a lot.
You should probably clarify on the RE though, how much has it closed gaps for Kaneki in fights?
 
This version of Kaneki went from 8-A to 7-C very quickly. In the scenario, this was caused by the return of his memory, but we already had a similar situation at the end of Part 1, when he went from 8-A to 7-C after Arima punched his head. At the end of the fight, he was even able to destroy IXA
I see, so if Kaneki is put under extreme pressure, practically about to lose, he can make a big jump ahead of Taiyo’s strength.
Taiyo isn’t the type of enemy to really play around with food or style on his enemies though.
So it may be possible Taiyo incapacitates him before he lets this happen.
I will say if all Taiyo does for example stab him in the head doesn’t immediately finish the job after something like that, Kaneki could surpass him

Kagune poison also greatly weakens regeneration. Isn't it logical to attack the opponent's heart if it's a human? At least Kaneki is used to fighting opponents who have regeneration cores
There’s a difference between viewing the heart as a vital that’s good to go for vs being the main spot you should be targeting all the time.
Kagune poison weakening regen will be bad for Taiyo then if he starts accumulating damage
Ghouls have resistance to heat of 4000 degrees Celsius
i see, you should probably add that to the Ghoul Physiology pages since I couldn’t find that on the pages. Besides just Tatara’s own fire potency.

still don't understand how this rule works. Are arguments with speed boosters simply not counted or does the match itself become invalid?
I’m pretty sure it means if the main reason the slower character wins is the speed amp, then the match can’t be counted, if the speed amp is not a primary factor in the slower characters victory it can be counted.

Kaneki also has kinetic vision, instinctive reactions, and heightened senses, allowing him to fight with his eyes closed. He is also superior to Urie, who is able to dodge attacks from opponents that surpass his perception
Taiyo pretty much has all of these, just that his feat of predicting perception level blitzes is something he does in base at the beginning of his series, while blooming amplifies his predictive capabilities and he’s much more skilled since then.
It might work, but Kaneki is a skilled fighter.
I actually agree, it wouldn’t be something easy to get off at all, Taiyo could stealth his way into off guard incapacitating Kaneki, but he generally does not fight like this.
But especially early in the fight I’d say if Kaneki just gets hit head on like that he should be down for the count.
 
I will mention on experience that Taiyo has been a spy for 6 years at this point, which I’m pretty sure is longer than the entire period of the start of TG to the final arc of Re. If you want a more detailed look at Taiyo’s intellect and skills you can also check his pre timeskip page
Oh wait, I forgot that was Kaneki from the Rose Arc. I think you should use the One-Eyed King Key because he's more skilled, experienced, and strategic.

Kaneki was able to surpass a guy who could kill him 645 times in a short exchange of blows and who only needs 2 seconds to defeat Kaneki. I'm not talking about quantitative experience, but qualitative. Although, maybe I'm underestimating Taiyo. Kaneki constantly fights groups of opponents, scaling to someone who is much higher than someone who was fighting 100 trained investigators at once. Kaneki was eventually able to analyze Arima, who was able to block Shachi's analytical prediction, who in turn blocked Kaneki's Part-1 analytical prediction.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Taiyo_Asano_(Pre-Timeskip)
For regen negation, is that not just with Quinque’s and not Kaneki’s normal Kagune?
No, the kagune does that too
Speed increases can be mitigated with Taiyo’s perception amps and his own speed amp.
But Kaneki also has enhanced senses and instinctive reactions
On Analytical prediction resistance, Taiyo has trained with and fought characters who resist analytical prediction as well
Kaneki has at least 2 layers of prediction denial, maybe 3
Taiyo’s attire, the Yozakura Family lounge wear has some damage reduction against pierce damage (his hardening is also good against slashes, you can read in his durability justification), while Taiyo is a swordsman.
Well, that would make the fight much more difficult. Kaneki is also a swordsman and a skilled fighter, who actively combines attacks with his kagune, legs, and quinque-katana. While Taiyo blocks one attack with his sword, a stream of kagune-tentacles can immediately fly into his face. Kaneki also actively uses the terrain around him and can attack from underground.
So they both have access to piece damage. Of course though the consequences for either of them getting pierced or slashed are different since Kaneki’s regen is better.
Agreed. Are there any other ways for Taiyo to neutralize an enemy without killing them or bypassing regeneration?
I will add though Taiyo is on par with Kyoichiro who fights with Danmaku attacks a lot
This will certainly be useful, however Kaneki's danmaku is completely under the control of his imagination and he can create elaborate traps, use the talking kagune to distract and bite off chunks of flesh from the enemy
You should probably clarify on the RE though, how much has it closed gaps for Kaneki in fights?
Haise's RE allows him to match an opponent he had completely crushed before and had already become stronger. This was Haise, who does not have access to his full power and is suppressed by RC depressants.

After he regained his memory, he became strong enough to oneshot someone who made him cough up blood and writhe in agony with a single swing of his paw.

His Part-1 at its peak became strong enough to destroy Arima's Quinque and force him to go on the defensive, although seconds earlier Arima completely suppressed Kaneki's perception.

However, if their ceiling is limited by the High 7-C key, then the maximum difference in their stats will be slightly more than 3 times
 
I see, so if Kaneki is put under extreme pressure, practically about to lose, he can make a big jump ahead of Taiyo’s strength.
Taiyo isn’t the type of enemy to really play around with food or style on his enemies though.
So it may be possible Taiyo incapacitates him before he lets this happen.
I will say if all Taiyo does for example stab him in the head doesn’t immediately finish the job after something like that, Kaneki could surpass him
I guess RE will happen one way or another, considering Kaneki has mid regeneration and Taiyo will probably try to kill him as quickly and efficiently as possible.
There’s a difference between viewing the heart as a vital that’s good to go for vs being the main spot you should be targeting all the time.
Kagune poison weakening regen will be bad for Taiyo then if he starts accumulating damage
Does Taiyo's ability have a pronounced manipulation of her blood? Because if so, then attacking the heart seems logical
i see, you should probably add that to the Ghoul Physiology pages since I couldn’t find that on the pages. Besides just Tatara’s own fire potency.
Oh, shit.

I added this. Thanks for pointing this out. I thought it was added a long time ago.
I’m pretty sure it means if the main reason the slower character wins is the speed amp, then the match can’t be counted, if the speed amp is not a primary factor in the slower characters victory it can be counted.
It would be better if the argument to speed up a slower character simply didn't count and the match would remain valid.

Because otherwise we lose a lot of great matches
Taiyo pretty much has all of these, just that his feat of predicting perception level blitzes is something he does in base at the beginning of his series, while blooming amplifies his predictive capabilities and he’s much more skilled since then.
Then I guess they are equal
I actually agree, it wouldn’t be something easy to get off at all, Taiyo could stealth his way into off guard incapacitating Kaneki, but he generally does not fight like this.
But especially early in the fight I’d say if Kaneki just gets hit head on like that he should be down for the count.
Kaneki's heightened senses would allow him to detect Taiyo before he could sneak up on him. Kaneki could also set a trap for him at that moment.

Also, Taiyo would need to figure out that the enemy has regeneration before trying to knock him out. How effective would a blow to the head be against Kaneki, when he was still fighting after his brain was pierced?
 
Kaneki was able to surpass a guy who could kill him 645 times in a short exchange of blows and who only needs 2 seconds to defeat Kaneki. I'm not talking about quantitative experience, but qualitative. Although, maybe I'm underestimating Taiyo. Kaneki constantly fights groups of opponents, scaling to someone who is much higher than someone who was fighting 100 trained investigators at once. Kaneki was eventually able to analyze Arima, who was able to block Shachi's analytical prediction, who in turn blocked Kaneki's Part-1 analytical prediction.
With Arima I wouldn’t say Kaneki outright surpassed him.
Arima said he only needed 2 seconds to kill Kaneki, yet simply doesn’t, this sorta infers either Arima was holding back for the vast majority of the fight or his health was just degrading that fast.
Tricking Arima and smashing his quinque was impressive yes, but he was going to keep fighting just fine until his body gave out if Kaneki actually said he wanted to kill him. It’s only cause Kaneki didn’t want to that he gave up.
Still being near Arima’s level is a strong point for Kaneki’s skill and his ability to fight dirty against a more skilled or stronger enemy.

Kaneki sort of has layers to his precog, but I’d possibly say Taiyo’s even’s out pretty well since the quality of the precog he is comparable to imo is better than Part 1 Kaneki or Shachi (Mainly how Taiyo’s an equal fighter with Kyoichiro and thus by proxy is also superior to Shion)

Taiyo has a similar feat to the 1 v 100 investigators.
Taiyo at this point is a superior fighter to Shinzo Yozakura, who was able to defeat over 230 spies at once without even getting touched once with just a combat knife and a few ricochet bullets, only actually being tagged by Taiyo. Taiyo also gets into fights with numerous opponents at once often not even getting hit from the beginning of his series even when all the opponents are relative in stats.

Well, that would make the fight much more difficult. Kaneki is also a swordsman and a skilled fighter, who actively combines attacks with his kagune, legs, and quinque-katana. While Taiyo blocks one attack with his sword, a stream of kagune-tentacles can immediately fly into his face. Kaneki also actively uses the terrain around him and can attack from underground
Taiyo’s extra sensory perception allowing him to sense the intent of his enemy (outlined in the Yozakura Physiology page) and where they’re attacking from may be a direct counter to any Kagune based tricks like this. Given they’re fully organic, so even underground attacks he’s gonna sense something’s up and dodge in advance.
The Kagune will make it a major pain for Taiyo to maintain very close range. While Kaneki likes mid range.

Agreed. Are there any other ways for Taiyo to neutralize an enemy without killing them or bypassing regeneration?
Besides those methods Taiyo would usually tie them up with Steel Spider (a wire made out of a special metal alloy), knock em out with sleep gas or simply choke them out/suffocate them.
Although Steel spider is optional equipment so I’m not counting that.
If including that wire is fine though then I’ll add it into the OP (as a note, Steel Spider has Class P tensile strength and low 7-B dura, so breaking out of those via conventional means is unlikely)
So Taiyo’s main means of winning at least as OP currently is would be a knock out or desperately trying to overwhelm Kaneki’s regeneration before he gets surpassed.

Does Taiyo's ability have a pronounced manipulation of her blood? Because if so, then attacking the heart seems logical
Not at all actually, the general powers he has is the numerous ways his physicals senses and vision are amplified as noted by Yozakura physiology.
But his unique blooming power Hardening, is simply that he can harden his body on the cellular level.

Kaneki's heightened senses would allow him to detect Taiyo before he could sneak up on him. Kaneki could also set a trap for him at that moment.

Also, Taiyo would need to figure out that the enemy has regeneration before trying to knock him out. How effective would a blow to the head be against Kaneki, when he was still fighting after his brain was pierced?
Yozakura’s are able to sneak up on each other despite each others own enhanced senses and extra sensory, so Taiyo could be fine there, and he’d sense a stray Kagune piece trying to pounce on him or something. Even Taiyo’s child (who’s immeasurably inferior to him) was able to hide from a Gold Rank spy just by running into a bush when extrasensory is an extremely common skill for spies in the World of Yozakura Family.
Then again, Taiyo’s not gonna view taking out Kaneki via stealth as a first option despite how good at it he is.

With regards to a knock out punch vs a brain pierce.
Getting pierced in the head doesn’t always knock someone out, they’re different types of injuries since a knock out is blunt force that more so comes from your brain internally bouncing awkwardly after impact. (The more off guard or the more the victim is surprised by how much that punch hit the more likely they’re getting knocked out)
Well and after the brain damage Kaneki was extremely disorientated during his fight with Arima in Part 1.
Martial arts are also Taiyo’s extremely quick to resort to if it may be a better fit, if he cuts Kaneki’s Kagune off and it grows back instantly he may know on the outset outlasting is a losing battle.

This will certainly be useful, however Kaneki's danmaku is completely under the control of his imagination and he can create elaborate traps, use the talking kagune to distract and bite off chunks of flesh from the enemy
I agree Kaneki’s Kagune Danmaku is a different kind of dangerous given the flexibility of it, but Kyoichiro’s is something that Taiyo can often barely perceive in his eyes, not for a lack of speed either, but rather how small said thread attacks are and are a lot more numerous despite their smaller size. Kagune I would say have the edge for things like pushing or whatever, but Taiyo’s the one with better LS.

With biting, given how hardening is against getting pierced or slashed, if Kaneki tries this early in the fight Taiyo may just no sell it entirely.
Otherwise though Kaneki’s Kagune is going to be a struggle for Taiyo to create a strategy around beating unless he goes the most simple route and lets himself take hits while tearing his Kagune with his bare hands.

I’ll add to OP that anything higher than High 7-C is restricted, since I didn’t know Kaneki’s RE would let him jump that high since this key doesn’t have an “up to X tier”
 
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With Arima I wouldn’t say Kaneki outright surpassed him.
Arima said he only needed 2 seconds to kill Kaneki, yet simply doesn’t, this sorta infers either Arima was holding back for the vast majority of the fight or his health was just degrading that fast.
Tricking Arima and smashing his quinque was impressive yes, but he was going to keep fighting just fine until his body gave out if Kaneki actually said he wanted to kill him. It’s only cause Kaneki didn’t want to that he gave up.
Still being near Arima’s level is a strong point for Kaneki’s skill and his ability to fight dirty against a more skilled or stronger enemy.
Arima was giving Kaneki a chance to show what he could do because he had high hopes for him, but he was also outright trying to kill him because that was the only way Kaneki would fight seriously.

Arima could have killed BR Kaneki because he was set up to lose, even though he was trying to snatch a win. However, the match turned on its head when Kishou knocked the crap out of Ken's head and he started fighting with the goal of surviving. Arima definitely has more experience and better technique, but he made sure Kaneki surpassed him as a fighter because otherwise the whole thing would have been pointless.
Kaneki sort of has layers to his precog, but I’d possibly say Taiyo’s even’s out pretty well since the quality of the precog he is comparable to imo is better than Part 1 Kaneki or Shachi (Mainly how Taiyo’s an equal fighter with Kyoichiro and thus by proxy is also superior to Shion)
I keep forgetting that you're using BR Kaneki, not OEK Kaneki. You're actually better off using the Post-Cochlea key because it brings out his fighting skills better.
Taiyo has a similar feat to the 1 v 100 investigators.
Taiyo at this point is a superior fighter to Shinzo Yozakura, who was able to defeat over 230 spies at once without even getting touched once with just a combat knife and a few ricochet bullets, only actually being tagged by Taiyo. Taiyo also gets into fights with numerous opponents at once often not even getting hit from the beginning of his series even when all the opponents are relative in stats.
This sounds very impressive
Taiyo’s extra sensory perception allowing him to sense the intent of his enemy (outlined in the Yozakura Physiology page) and where they’re attacking from may be a direct counter to any Kagune based tricks like this. Given they’re fully organic, so even underground attacks he’s gonna sense something’s up and dodge in advance.
The Kagune will make it a major pain for Taiyo to maintain very close range. While Kaneki likes mid range.
It's one thing when it's 1-2 tentacle kagune and you can block it with your senses. It's another thing when there are more than 6 and they freely change shape and trajectory. A large number of tentacles can become problematic
Besides those methods Taiyo would usually tie them up with Steel Spider (a wire made out of a special metal alloy), knock em out with sleep gas or simply choke them out/suffocate them.


With regards to a knock out punch vs a brain pierce.
Getting pierced in the head doesn’t always knock someone out, they’re different types of injuries since a knock out is blunt force that more so comes from your brain internally bouncing awkwardly after impact. (The more off guard or the more the victim is surprised by how much that punch hit the more likely they’re getting knocked out)
Well and after the brain damage Kaneki was extremely disorientated during his fight with Arima in Part 1.
Martial arts are also Taiyo’s extremely quick to resort to if it may be a better fit, if he cuts Kaneki’s Kagune off and it grows back instantly he may know on the outset outlasting is a losing battle.
Ghouls have resistance to poisons and drugs because a weakened and hungry BoS Kaneki was able to overcome the effects of the paralyzing gas by activating the kakugan.

I also don't know if a blunt blow to the head would actually have an effect. Kaneki scales to Amon, who survived the fight after his head was destroyed and turned into a kakuja
Although Steel spider is optional equipment so I’m not counting that.
If including that wire is fine though then I’ll add it into the OP (as a note, Steel Spider has Class P tensile strength and low 7-B dura, so breaking out of those via conventional means is unlikely)
So Taiyo’s main means of winning at least as OP currently is would be a knock out or desperately trying to overwhelm Kaneki’s regeneration before he gets surpassed.
Steel Spider sounds like a very reliable wincon. Is there any way to get out of it?
Does Taiyo use it at the very beginning of the fight?
Not at all actually, the general powers he has is the numerous ways his physicals senses and vision are amplified as noted by Yozakura physiology.
But his unique blooming power Hardening, is simply that he can harden his body on the cellular level.
I suppose it will take a little longer, but after realizing that his opponent is not a ghoul, but still has regeneration, Kaneki will target his heart and brain.
Yozakura’s are able to sneak up on each other despite each others own enhanced senses and extra sensory, so Taiyo could be fine there, and he’d sense a stray Kagune piece trying to pounce on him or something. Even Taiyo’s child (who’s immeasurably inferior to him) was able to hide from a Gold Rank spy just by running into a bush when extrasensory is an extremely common skill for spies in the World of Yozakura Family.
Then again, Taiyo’s not gonna view taking out Kaneki via stealth as a first option despite how good at it he is.
Using this tactic in general seems problematic to me against Kaneki, and if it's also out of character for Taiyo, then we should just throw this tactic aside
I agree Kaneki’s Kagune Danmaku is a different kind of dangerous given the flexibility of it, but Kyoichiro’s is something that Taiyo can often barely perceive in his eyes, not for a lack of speed either, but rather how small said thread attacks are and are a lot more numerous despite their smaller size. Kagune I would say have the edge for things like pushing or whatever, but Taiyo’s the one with better LS.
Yozakura's LS will definitely be a problem in this match.

However, Kaneki's kagune is also dangerous because it can change shape on the fly, talk, and bite off flesh. It's not worth touching at all. Yes, the way Taiyo handled the threads is very impressive and requires insane precision in movement. However, the large size of the kagune also plays into his hands. Look at the first fight between Kaneki and Arima. When Kaneki uses Donmaku, it simply fills the entire space in which Arima moves. Arima survived simply because he is an Aura Boss and casts Formless attacks and was very technical.
With biting, given how hardening is against getting pierced or slashed, if Kaneki tries this early in the fight Taiyo may just no sell it entirely.
Otherwise though Kaneki’s Kagune is going to be a struggle for Taiyo to create a strategy around beating unless he goes the most simple route and lets himself take hits while tearing his Kagune with his bare hands.
It's funny that the simplest way is the most effective
I’ll add to OP that anything higher than High 7-C is restricted, since I didn’t know Kaneki’s RE would let him jump that high since this key doesn’t have an “up to X tier”
Honestly, I have no idea how the RE system works on this site.

In the battle with Sukuna Kaneki's RE was revealed to the fullest extent, because his Post-Dragon key itself implies a transition from 7-C to Low 7-B.

However, Post-Cochlea is just 7-C. I don't know how far he can go within the key
 
Arima was giving Kaneki a chance to show what he could do because he had high hopes for him, but he was also outright trying to kill him because that was the only way Kaneki would fight seriously.

Arima could have killed BR Kaneki because he was set up to lose, even though he was trying to snatch a win. However, the match turned on its head when Kishou knocked the crap out of Ken's head and he started fighting with the goal of surviving. Arima definitely has more experience and better technique, but he made sure Kaneki surpassed him as a fighter because otherwise the whole thing would have been pointless.
Good point

I keep forgetting that you're using BR Kaneki, not OEK Kaneki. You're actually better off using the Post-Cochlea key because it brings out his fighting skills better.
Alright sure, although tbh I thought the Post Rose key was just meant to represent everything he has before the dragon war arc. I'll change OP to specify Post-Cochlea

It's one thing when it's 1-2 tentacle kagune and you can block it with your senses. It's another thing when there are more than 6 and they freely change shape and trajectory. A large number of tentacles can become problematic
Yozakura's LS will definitely be a problem in this match.

However, Kaneki's kagune is also dangerous because it can change shape on the fly, talk, and bite off flesh. It's not worth touching at all. Yes, the way Taiyo handled the threads is very impressive and requires insane precision in movement. However, the large size of the kagune also plays into his hands. Look at the first fight between Kaneki and Arima. When Kaneki uses Donmaku, it simply fills the entire space in which Arima moves. Arima survived simply because he is an Aura Boss and casts Formless attacks and was very technical.
Taiyo would just parry them all at once with only 1-2 sword swings needed even if he is omni directionally attacked as shown when he fight's Kyoichiro while in a form that is stated to make his movements sluggish and stiff, or how even after his hand was spatially cut off something he did not see coming, he parried omnidirectional projectiles with his non dominant hand.
Another example of Kyoichiro's threads by comparison is that they have also just filled the space his enemy fought within to a much more severe degree. Since Taiyo starts as the stronger one, parrying them would work fine.

Ghouls have resistance to poisons and drugs because a weakened and hungry BoS Kaneki was able to overcome the effects of the paralyzing gas by activating the kakugan.

I also don't know if a blunt blow to the head would actually have an effect. Kaneki scales to Amon, who survived the fight after his head was destroyed and turned into a kakuja
I see, although even then if just trying to punch his skull in doesn't work, didn't Arima stabbing Kaneki in the brain and eyes incapacitate him during Part 1? Pretty sure Amon wasn't fighting fully sane in that state either, doesn't seem like something that would be ideal if Taiyo gets attakcs on his head a lot.

Steel Spider sounds like a very reliable wincon. Is there any way to get out of it?
Does Taiyo use it at the very beginning of the fight?
He wouldn't use it at the very start cause he generally will want to know how his enemy fights before getting aggressive and proceeding with his win conditions unless he has prior knowledge (when he has prior knowledge he likes trying to blitz and one shot)
Kaneki can't get out of it if Taiyo ties him up in it. It's simply a really strong 50m long wire with no unique weaknesses. Tensile strength is the main thing in its verse its hyped up for as well. Tying Kaneki up like this would still need Taiyo to get close and stay close while Kaneki's Kagune tries to strike him or whatever which will be difficult, but is feasible.
If Taiyo punches this guy, and Kaneki gets up, cuts his Kagune and or arms and they just regrow, the logical conclusion is to use something he hasn't tried yet, aka Steel Spider.

I suppose it will take a little longer, but after realizing that his opponent is not a ghoul, but still has regeneration, Kaneki will target his heart and brain.
This is actually fair, but Taiyo starting out as the stronger one + damage reduction + a durability amp means I think Taiyo's heart getting destroyed is one of the less likely win cons here

Honestly, I have no idea how the RE system works on this site.

In the battle with Sukuna Kaneki's RE was revealed to the fullest extent, because his Post-Dragon key itself implies a transition from 7-C to Low 7-B.

However, Post-Cochlea is just 7-C. I don't know how far he can go within the key
I'm not the most sure on RE when there's no up to and the enemy is in a higher tier, but I'd probably use the Arima fight for how much Post-Rose to Post Cochlea kaneki can grow in a standard battle (Cause in the Rose arc once he became the Black Reaper he defeats Eto pretty handedly).

Overall though to summarize what I'm seeing from Kaneki and the general points of this thread:

He's got relative skill to Taiyo
Has Danmaku
Better regen
His Kagune poison can impair regen + Kaneki can outlast
Could get stronger as the fight goes on, possibly even surpassing Taiyo's strength

Both of them have enhanced senses and heightened perception, but Taiyo has much better extra sensory

For Taiyo
Superior AP, Dura amps meaning that Kaneki may fail to draw blood at all early on (Similar to this scene where Asa used Hardening against Taiyo, who can hurt Asa with simple punches when he is not using hardening and didn't even have Yozakura Loungewear on)
Better lifting strength, so Kaneki's usual methods of shoving or trying to pin with the Kagune will fail
Can parry omnidirectional attacks
Has a speed amp he can use anytime which is blitz level (Stepping on flowers), while Kaneki needs to RE to get faster
LS combined with better dura means Taiyo can tie up Kaneki with Steel Spider, not triggering his RE since this method of subduing doesn't damage Kaneki.
Can possibly incapacitate Kaneki if he gets enough stabs into his brain, although this is more iffy.
 
Alright sure, although tbh I thought the Post Rose key was just meant to represent everything he has before the dragon war arc. I'll change OP to specify Post-Cochlea
Post-Cochlea is more mature and tactful. Although, I admit that I like the design of Black Reaper the most
Taiyo would just parry them all at once with only 1-2 sword swings needed even if he is omni directionally attacked as shown when he fight's Kyoichiro while in a form that is stated to make his movements sluggish and stiff, or how even after his hand was spatially cut off something he did not see coming, he parried omnidirectional projectiles with his non dominant hand.
Another example of Kyoichiro's threads by comparison is that they have also just filled the space his enemy fought within to a much more severe degree. Since Taiyo starts as the stronger one, parrying them would work fine.
This dude is so cool. Too bad he doesn't have keys in common with some Yoriich
I see, although even then if just trying to punch his skull in doesn't work, didn't Arima stabbing Kaneki in the brain and eyes incapacitate him during Part 1? Pretty sure Amon wasn't fighting fully sane in that state either, doesn't seem like something that would be ideal if Taiyo gets attakcs on his head a lot.
It was about an exhausted Kaneki, who restored the torn out kagune thanks to several bites of flesh. Kaneki certainly threw off the effects of regen negation, but his body's resources were at a minimum
He wouldn't use it at the very start cause he generally will want to know how his enemy fights before getting aggressive and proceeding with his win conditions unless he has prior knowledge (when he has prior knowledge he likes trying to blitz and one shot)
Kaneki can't get out of it if Taiyo ties him up in it. It's simply a really strong 50m long wire with no unique weaknesses. Tensile strength is the main thing in its verse its hyped up for as well. Tying Kaneki up like this would still need Taiyo to get close and stay close while Kaneki's Kagune tries to strike him or whatever which will be difficult, but is feasible.
If Taiyo punches this guy, and Kaneki gets up, cuts his Kagune and or arms and they just regrow, the logical conclusion is to use something he hasn't tried yet, aka Steel Spider.
This is of course very funny and ineffective, but in extreme cases Kaneki can repeat his experience of fighting against Oggai. Then he fought without arms and legs at all. In this case, he can start moving with the help of kagune. Or try to break free by damaging his own body, for example by tearing off his tied arms and legs. However, this will affect his endurance
I'm not the most sure on RE when there's no up to and the enemy is in a higher tier, but I'd probably use the Arima fight for how much Post-Rose to Post Cochlea kaneki can grow in a standard battle (Cause in the Rose arc once he became the Black Reaper he defeats Eto pretty handedly)
RE against Arima was limited by the fact that he didn't want to kill his mentor.

However, we see his RE in action when he goes from being tied with Arata, who is at 8-A, to being on the verge of death breaking IXA, who is at 7-C.

Kaneki is the kind of opponent who can be way behind you at the start of the match, but if you don't kill him right away or underestimate him, he's breathing down your neck
Overall though to summarize what I'm seeing from Kaneki and the general points of this thread:

He's got relative skill to Taiyo
Has Danmaku
Better regen
His Kagune poison can impair regen + Kaneki can outlast
Could get stronger as the fight goes on, possibly even surpassing Taiyo's strength
He also has a kakuja which is an additional stat booster
Both of them have enhanced senses and heightened perception, but Taiyo has much better extra sensory

For Taiyo
Superior AP, Dura amps meaning that Kaneki may fail to draw blood at all early on (Similar to this scene where Asa used Hardening against Taiyo, who can hurt Asa with simple punches when he is not using hardening and didn't even have Yozakura Loungewear on)
Better lifting strength, so Kaneki's usual methods of shoving or trying to pin with the Kagune will fail
Can parry omnidirectional attacks
Has a speed amp he can use anytime which is blitz level (Stepping on flowers), while Kaneki needs to RE to get faster
LS combined with better dura means Taiyo can tie up Kaneki with Steel Spider, not triggering his RE since this method of subduing doesn't damage Kaneki.
Can possibly incapacitate Kaneki if he gets enough stabs into his brain, although this is more iffy.
Taiyo has a lot of hax, which would also be a huge plus. At the very least, he can fly or something.
 
It was about an exhausted Kaneki, who restored the torn out kagune thanks to several bites of flesh. Kaneki certainly threw off the effects of regen negation, but his body's resources were at a minimum
True, but wasn’t Kaneki’s battle he was forced to try really hard in that arc the fight with Arata Amon before hand?
That and Kaneki’s profile mentions brain damage is a weakness for him even in this key.
Doesn’t seem like reducing Kaneki to a state where Kaneki where attacking his head would work is that difficult

This is of course very funny and ineffective, but in extreme cases Kaneki can repeat his experience of fighting against Oggai. Then he fought without arms and legs at all. In this case, he can start moving with the help of kagune. Or try to break free by damaging his own body, for example by tearing off his tied arms and legs. However, this will affect his endurance
I know you said trying to fight in a state like that would be really ineffective, but Since Kagune shoots out from the back, and Taiyo would figure this out early on in their fight, he’d also ensure Kaneki’s back is covered enough in the Steel spider wire that Kaneki struggles to push his Kagune out.
Or Taiyo would throw his sword at Kaneki’s Kagune he’s using to move to pin him to a spot on the ground awkwardly

RE against Arima was limited by the fact that he didn't want to kill his mentor.

However, we see his RE in action when he goes from being tied with Arata, who is at 8-A, to being on the verge of death breaking IXA, who is at 7-C.

Kaneki is the kind of opponent who can be way behind you at the start of the match, but if you don't kill him right away or underestimate him, he's breathing down your neck
I see, the fact Taiyo never underestimates his opponents and will always go all out will help him a lot. (Like if Taiyo’s true spring blooming wasn’t restricted, he would start the fight with it against someone like Kaneki)
He also has a kakuja which is an additional stat booster
Also true

Taiyo has a lot of hax, which would also be a huge plus. At the very least, he can fly or something.
Yes he’s got pseudo flight via the shockwaves from his electric gun/sword and the acrobatics to use Kyoichiro’s steel spider threads as a footstool even being able to use his Stepping on Flowers while on it despite how thin they are. Which are also sharp enough to slice things.
So unironically Taiyo could also Run up or jump off of Kaneki’s Kagune as platforms mid battle as if Kaneki’s fighting another Juzo/Arima.

Although I’ve said most of the points on Taiyo now, so you and others are pretty free to vote.
 
True, but wasn’t Kaneki’s battle he was forced to try really hard in that arc the fight with Arata Amon before hand?
It was a close fight until Kaneki activated Centipede
That and Kaneki’s profile mentions brain damage is a weakness for him even in this key.
Doesn’t seem like reducing Kaneki to a state where Kaneki where attacking his head would work is that difficult
This is a very old description of weakness that should be removed. After all, Kaneki scales above ghouls like Uta and Matsuri, who don't pay attention to piercing the brain or chopping the head in half
I know you said trying to fight in a state like that would be really ineffective, but Since Kagune shoots out from the back, and Taiyo would figure this out early on in their fight, he’d also ensure Kaneki’s back is covered enough in the Steel spider wire that Kaneki struggles to push his Kagune out.
Kaneki can simply pierce himself through kagune and take him out through another part of his body. Or, cover your body with a thin kagune shell and release it from another part of your body.
Ken just deactivates the pressed kagune and creates a new one. It's never been a problem
I see, the fact Taiyo never underestimates his opponents and will always go all out will help him a lot. (Like if Taiyo’s true spring blooming wasn’t restricted, he would start the fight with it against someone like Kaneki)
I'm by no means questioning Taie's Battle IQ, but how often has he faced opponents with mid regen? When he sees Kaneki regenerating limbs and body holes, he attacks his head, for example, decapitating him. However, Kaneki will recover from that too. By this point, their stats will either level up or Kaneki will move ahead
Although I’ve said most of the points on Taiyo now, so you and others are pretty free to vote.
I'm actually neutral.

I see good vincones from Taiyo and he is very skilled. And I also know Vincona Kaneki.

Who are you leaning closer to? I will be neutral until others vote
 
It was a close fight until Kaneki activated Centipede
I know this bit, I more meant to say that it wasn’t like that was a multi hour long slug fest and that it was his “only” major encounter before Arima.

This is a very old description of weakness that should be removed. After all, Kaneki scales above ghouls like Uta and Matsuri, who don't pay attention to piercing the brain or chopping the head in half
Noted
Kaneki can simply pierce himself through kagune and take him out through another part of his body. Or, cover your body with a thin kagune shell and release it from another part of your body.
Kaneki could do this, but wouldn’t Kaneki’s threat he’s posing to Taiyo trying to move around and fight like this be so miniscule this wouldn’t even be worth trying?

Ken just deactivates the pressed kagune and creates a new one. It's never been a problem
Taiyo could also toss the sword into his chest or torso then.

I'm by no means questioning Taie's Battle IQ, but how often has he faced opponents with mid regen? When he sees Kaneki regenerating limbs and body holes, he attacks his head, for example, decapitating him. However, Kaneki will recover from that too. By this point, their stats will either level up or Kaneki will move ahead
He’s faced them on several occasions mainly the Sakuranbo Parasites (where they regenerate unless you can destroy a tiny core or you reduce em to dust or vapor) and Makoto Kawashita (who can regenerate from pieces of his finger)

Against the Sakuranbos despite relative combat speed an enraged Taiyo manages to slice them down en masse thoroughly enough that they die. (He was informed in advance to kill them this thoroughly though due to their regen)
Although against Kawashita since that guy was stronger than him at the time aka brute force wasn’t an option, Taiyo zapped him thoroughly enough that made him faint with his Lightning Strike attack, with Kawashita already having electricity resistance.
I'm actually neutral.

I see good vincones from Taiyo and he is very skilled. And I also know Vincona Kaneki.

Who are you leaning closer to? I will be neutral until others vote
Personally from all I’ve seen I’d actually vote incon if I voted on my own threads (I would vote on my own thread if the count is like 6-0-0 or something but that’s it)
 
I know this bit, I more meant to say that it wasn’t like that was a multi hour long slug fest and that it was his “only” major encounter before Arima.
Part of the battle remained behind the scenes, but first of all his condition was due to the fact that his regeneration core was completely destroyed by the kagune toxic to him. After that, in the process of madness, he began to destroy his body. Of course, Kaneki was able to recover, but a couple of pieces of flesh were not enough to bring him back from his near-death state to the peak of his powers
Kaneki could do this, but wouldn’t Kaneki’s threat he’s posing to Taiyo trying to move around and fight like this be so miniscule this wouldn’t even be worth trying?
That's enough to dodge a couple of punches. In the meantime, his RE will allow him to become strong enough to break free from the threads.
Taiyo could also toss the sword into his chest or torso then.
What's stopping Kaneki from doing something like that?
He’s faced them on several occasions mainly the Sakuranbo Parasites (where they regenerate unless you can destroy a tiny core or you reduce em to dust or vapor) and Makoto Kawashita (who can regenerate from pieces of his finger)
Okay, but how would he immediately realize that Kaneki has this level of regeneration?
Personally from all I’ve seen I’d actually vote incon if I voted on my own threads (I would vote on my own thread if the count is like 6-0-0 or something but that’s it)
Isn't incon set if the characters can't kill each other?
I'm wondering which one you prefer more.
 
Part of the battle remained behind the scenes, but first of all his condition was due to the fact that his regeneration core was completely destroyed by the kagune toxic to him. After that, in the process of madness, he began to destroy his body. Of course, Kaneki was able to recover, but a couple of pieces of flesh were not enough to bring him back from his near-death state to the peak of his powers
I see, although does that not mean the destruction of Kaneki's Kakuhou be able to temporarily weaken or stun Kaneki in a similar way so long as he takes a chunk out of him like Amon did? (Or if Taiyo violently slices him down like Arima could pull off during their fight in Cochlea?)

That's enough to dodge a couple of punches. In the meantime, his RE will allow him to become strong enough to break free from the threads.
Isn't Kaneki's RE reliant on actually being harmed as shown on the physiology page for the One Eyed ghouls:
Taiyo could just focus on defense and try subduing him without relying on Yae (his sword) which would maim him.

What's stopping Kaneki from doing something like that?
If Taiyo sees kaneki getting up like this he uses stepping on flowers to instantly dash towards Kaneki then just strangles him or chokes him with his Class G LS. Not like Kaneki would throw him off

Okay, but how would he immediately realize that Kaneki has this level of regeneration?
Once Kaneki regens a limb without having to reattach the old limb or surviving a hole punched in him he's going to operate that his regen is of that level or better. First thing he saw on Kawashita's regen was regenerating from decapitation and not caring about losing his arms. The Sakuranbo parasites meanwhile were first shown not caring about large holes being blown through them.

Isn't incon set if the characters can't kill each other?
I'm wondering which one you prefer more.
Incon can also be decided if both parties have equally valid arguments instead of it being really clear who wins. (or if the count is just close like 7-6-0) Incon via both parties not being able to kill or KO each other are actually exceptions unless the debate was extensive as to why.

Why not just do sba. Kaneki starts in L7b and so would Taiyo
More cause this key of Kaneki vs Taiyo with only his Blooming is the most competitive.
If its Post Dragon Kaneki vs True Spring Blooming Taiyo. Taiyo lacks the means to overwhelm Kaneki's regen (Regeneration (High-Mid; He was crushed to mush and still regenerated from it<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ken_Kaneki#cite_note-TGR177-14"><span>[</span>14<span>]</span></a>))
since he's slightly weaker on top of how True Spring Blooming will start slowly killing Taiyo after the 10 minute mark. While Kaneki will not have such an issue, leading that match up to be a bit stompish (unless you equate Yozakura Physiology to Ghouls under the basis that they're both biological, then Taiyo could take his ghoul powers away with Momo's bullet)
 
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I see, although does that not mean the destruction of Kaneki's Kakuhou be able to temporarily weaken or stun Kaneki in a similar way so long as he takes a chunk out of him like Amon did? (Or if Taiyo violently slices him down like Arima could pull off during their fight in Cochlea?)
Maybe it will work, although it won't be as effective without quinke's poison. However, if Kaneki enters the kakuji state, it will be useless because he has several kakuho.
Isn't Kaneki's RE reliant on actually being harmed as shown on the physiology page for the One Eyed ghouls:
Taiyo could just focus on defense and try subduing him without relying on Yae (his sword) which would maim him.
First of all, in theory Kaneki can hurt himself, lol
Secondly, if he goes on the defensive and does not attack, then this is really an incon, because neither side will win.
If Taiyo sees kaneki getting up like this he uses stepping on flowers to instantly dash towards Kaneki then just strangles him or chokes him with his Class G LS. Not like Kaneki would throw him off
If he starts strangling Kaneki, Kaneki can just attack his kagune at point blank range
Once Kaneki regens a limb without having to reattach the old limb or surviving a hole punched in him he's going to operate that his regen is of that level or better. First thing he saw on Kawashita's regen was regenerating from decapitation and not caring about losing his arms. The Sakuranbo parasites meanwhile were first shown not caring about large holes being blown through them.
Kaneki will prefer to return the severed arm to its place in order to spend less energy on regeneration. And a punctured body and deep cuts are just high-low regeneration. I'm not sure he'll draw conclusions quickly.
Incon can also be decided if both parties have equally valid arguments instead of it being really clear who wins. (or if the count is just close like 7-6-0) Incon via both parties not being able to kill or KO each other are actually exceptions unless the debate was extensive as to why.
Nevertheless, I'm wondering which fighter has the best chance in your opinion
More cause this key of Kaneki vs Taiyo with only his Blooming is the most competitive.
If its Post Dragon Kaneki vs True Spring Blooming Taiyo. Taiyo lacks the means to overwhelm Kaneki's regen since he's slightly weaker on top of how True Spring Blooming will start slowly killing Taiyo after the 10 minute mark. While Kaneki will not have such an issue, leading that match up to be a bit stompish (unless you equate Yozakura Physiology to Ghouls under the basis that they're both biological, then Taiyo could take his ghoul powers away with Momo's bullet)
Hmm, how hard will this fight be if their physiology is equated?
 
Maybe it will work, although it won't be as effective without quinke's poison. However, if Kaneki enters the kakuji state, it will be useless because he has several kakuho.
Noted
First of all, in theory Kaneki can hurt himself, lol
In Theory, but I am like 90% sure its not in character for Kaneki to maim himself unless he's succumbing to ghoul madness or something (then again I last read Tokyo Ghoul a while ago)

If he starts strangling Kaneki, Kaneki can just attack his kagune at point blank range
Taiyo shrugging it off via his durability and his pain tolerance isn't too crazy
Kaneki will prefer to return the severed arm to its place in order to spend less energy on regeneration. And a punctured body and deep cuts are just high-low regeneration. I'm not sure he'll draw conclusions quickly.
By holes I more so mean if Taiyo uses hardening and punches straight through the guy (remember, he is starting with a 3.61x AP gap), Yae in its gun form to blast a hole through Kaneki. He is not going to be conservative in his estimates. In his own verse regeneration is exclusive to those who have Someinine in their blood or composition (the Physiology of a Yozakura). So anytime he sees regen he will logically assume the worst or that he's like Kawashita.

Nevertheless, I'm wondering which fighter has the best chance in your opinion
I would go with Taiyo since Kaneki's win conditions rely on a longer battle while Taiyo's does not in regards to physically restraining or steel spider threads.

Hmm, how hard will this fight be if their physiology is equated?
Without Momo's bullet not too much changes except now Kagune poison would work on slowing Yozakura Regeneration. Under unequalized conditions, Taiyo would still heal from Kagune/Kakuja strikes since how regen in Yozakura works is different.

if you give Taiyo Momo's bullet which is listed in Taiyo's optional equipment tabber if Ghouls and Yozakuras are equalized:
  • If its Blooming Taiyo vs Cochlea Kaneki. Taiyo would win with low difficulty. Kinda just grabs Kaneki's Kagune early, ragdolls him with lifting strength shoots him with the bullet, takes away his ghoul powers and hes a normal human again. Taiyo starts as the stronger one and Taiyo would figure it out fast, so it plays to his advantage
  • If its True Spring Blooming vs Post Dragon. Taiyo would maybe win high difficulty, but it could go either way. I'd be similar to Taiyo's battle from his own final arc where he revolves his strategy around landing his shot once. Fight slow, be purely defensive for the first few minutes to get a good read on Kaneki, then go full throttle to win soon after. However Kaneki could win if he doesn't try his luck on regenerating from the bullet by ensuring he dodges it (but it looks like any other bullet so idk if he would bother dodging. Plus he can shoot either the bullet or electricity from the gun, so Kaneki may think the electricity will come out and that its not a threat). If any aspect of that plan goes wrong though Kaneki does just win though, or if Taiyo ends up damaging Kaneki too much too early, allowing Kaneki to surpass him further.
 
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In Theory, but I am like 90% sure its not in character for Kaneki to maim himself unless he's succumbing to ghoul madness or something (then again I last read Tokyo Ghoul a while ago)
Seido actively uses this tactic to take the enemy by surprise. Kaneki has sacrificed his foot for a counterattack more than once. So it doesn't seem that crazy.
Taiyo shrugging it off via his durability and his pain tolerance isn't too crazy.

Damage Reduction (The Yozakura family battle gear is made to be bullet proof and blade resistant<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Taiyo_Yozakura_(Post-Timeskip)#cite_note-Yozakura6-3"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Taiyo_Yozakura_(Post-Timeskip)#cite_note-Yozakura162-19"><span>[</span>19<span>]</span></a>)
It's enough for Kaneki to hit the exposed parts of the body
higher with Hardening (Casually tanked Hydra's attacks without flinching. His Hardening is powerful enough that it is considered to make his entire body a weapon now compared to before. At this point his Hardening is notable enough to have spread rumors through out the underworld as Hydra knows it and is terrified of it. Taiyo's hardening is on par with if not superior to Asa's. Which is strong enough to where even though Taiyo's punches can hurt him, his sword slashes cannot even scratch or draw blood from Asa<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Taiyo_Yozakura_(Post-Timeskip)#cite_note-Yozakura231-13"><span>[</span>13<span>]</span></a>)
Isn't this justified by the fact that his durability is greater than the enemy's AP? Or that his weapon wasn't strong or sharp enough.
By holes I more so mean if Taiyo uses hardening and punches straight through the guy (remember, he is starting with a 3.61x AP gap), Yae in its gun form to blast a hole through Kaneki. He is not going to be conservative in his estimates. In his own verse regeneration is exclusive to those who have Someinine in their blood or composition (the Physiology of a Yozakura). So anytime he sees regen he will logically assume the worst or that he's like Kawashita.
Tell me, how does Taiyo start this match? As I understand it, he is serious and tries to kill the opponent right away. He can start by cutting the throat or piercing the heart, but this will only start Kaneki's RE and their stats can even out. Then, if he tries to chop off Kaneki's head or pierce his brain, it will play a cruel joke on him.

Kaneki literally rose from the level when he had problems with a guy that scales to those who can barely stand with an 8-A character to the level when he breaks a quinque that easily cuts a 7-C character. For this, it was enough to drive him into despair and pierce his brain.

I doubt that Taiyo starts this match by chopping Kaneki into dust. And even if he tries, then Kaneki's kagune, equal skills, kakuja and cold-blooded use of his physiology will not allow him to do it.
I would go with Taiyo since Kaneki's win conditions rely on a longer battle while Taiyo's does not in regards to physically restraining or steel spider threads.
In that case, your vote should be counted.
Without Momo's bullet not too much changes except now Kagune poison would work on slowing Yozakura Regeneration. Under unequalized conditions, Taiyo would still heal from Kagune/Kakuja strikes since how regen in Yozakura works is different.

if you give Taiyo Momo's bullet which is listed in Taiyo's optional equipment tabber if Ghouls and Yozakuras are equalized:
  • If its Blooming Taiyo vs Cochlea Kaneki. Taiyo would win with low difficulty. Kinda just grabs Kaneki's Kagune early, ragdolls him with lifting strength shoots him with the bullet, takes away his ghoul powers and hes a normal human again. Taiyo starts as the stronger one and Taiyo would figure it out fast, so it plays to his advantage
Putting Kaneki's 7-C against Taiyo's Low 7-B is just a terrible idea because the 35x difference makes it impossible. Unless Yozakura intentionally inflicts dangerous but not fatal wounds on him to provoke RE. However, that's not in his character.

Lol, Kaneki's RE is playing a cruel joke on him because it's not the first time he's been put against an enemy with a 5-6x advantage.
  • If its True Spring Blooming vs Post Dragon. Taiyo would maybe win high difficulty, but it could go either way. I'd be similar to Taiyo's battle from his own final arc where he revolves his strategy around landing his shot once. Fight slow, be purely defensive for the first few minutes to get a good read on Kaneki, then go full throttle to win soon after. However Kaneki could win if he doesn't try his luck on regenerating from the bullet by ensuring he dodges it (but it looks like any other bullet so idk if he would bother dodging. Plus he can shoot either the bullet or electricity from the gun, so Kaneki may think the electricity will come out and that its not a threat). If any aspect of that plan goes wrong though Kaneki does just win though, or if Taiyo ends up damaging Kaneki too much too early, allowing Kaneki to surpass him further.
It might be interesting if you give Kaneki some prior information about Taiyo's abilities and the Momo bullet.

However, I don't know how many of these bullets Yozakura has, how good of a shot he is, or if he can hit 100%. Will he attack with other weapons while holding the Momo bullet?
 
Seido actively uses this tactic to take the enemy by surprise. Kaneki has sacrificed his foot for a counterattack more than once. So it doesn't seem that crazy.
Yes but Kaneki is not Takizawa. While Kaneki would sacrifice a limb while in an active exchange. He hasn't done something like this with an explicit aim of making himself stronger mid battle (and minor stuff doesn't seem to do much for Kaneki anyway, Haise was getting bodied by Takizawa for a while). Nor is he gonna rip into his own skull to shreds or whatever other grievous injury he could do in such an awkward position.

It's enough for Kaneki to hit the exposed parts of the body
Only exposed part of his body is his head, he's fully clothed otherwise, even wearing gloves. Hardening still applies to his face and eyes as it hardens all his cells. Taiyo was able to restrain a guy while he was having his lungs and heart punctured and the blades were being left in to stop him from just healing.

sn't this justified by the fact that his durability is greater than the enemy's AP? Or that his weapon wasn't strong or sharp enough.
Its cause of a simple chain. Hardening Durability (Taiyo's sword strikes fail to make Asa bleed or even scratch him, Taiyo also stated bluntly he did zero damage. If Asa does not use hardening, Taiyo can hurt him a lot with just punches) >>> Taiyo's sword strikes (cutting/stabbing is much more effective than punches and kicks) > Taiyo's physical AP/Dura
In simpler terms Taiyo is more durable than his actual AP by a large amount and he'd struggle damage himself even if he has hardening on, which he keeps on all the time.

Tell me, how does Taiyo start this match? As I understand it, he is serious and tries to kill the opponent right away. He can start by cutting the throat or piercing the heart, but this will only start Kaneki's RE and their stats can even out. Then, if he tries to chop off Kaneki's head or pierce his brain, it will play a cruel joke on him.

Kaneki literally rose from the level when he had problems with a guy that scales to those who can barely stand with an 8-A character to the level when he breaks a quinque that easily cuts a 7-C character. For this, it was enough to drive him into despair and pierce his brain.

I doubt that Taiyo starts this match by chopping Kaneki into dust. And even if he tries, then Kaneki's kagune, equal skills, kakuja and cold-blooded use of his physiology will not allow him to do it.
Taiyo noticing his Kagune and that hes not some random grunt. Opens up with his swordsmanship to try slice him apart. If he consistently is failing to make much progress on a basic, slice to dust strat in the event Kaneki is succeeding at keeping him mid range. He'd switch to trying to restrain him via Steel Spider and grabs.
If that still somehow fails he'll try using lightning strike to see if he can make Kaneki faint
I agree this big jump will happen if Taiyo succeeds at stabbing his head or decapitating him, but are you sure most other attacks would still do this? Cause Shachi punched Kaneki in the gut with his bare hands and Kaneki did not get much stronger despite coughing up blood and being brought to his knees. (Which must've been a ton of internal organ damage) Instead Kaneki tried to fight smarter in preparation for his round 2.
Putting Kaneki's 7-C against Taiyo's Low 7-B is just a terrible idea because the 35x difference makes it impossible. Unless Yozakura intentionally inflicts dangerous but not fatal wounds on him to provoke RE. However, that's not in his character.

Lol, Kaneki's RE is playing a cruel joke on him because it's not the first time he's been put against an enemy with a 5-6x advantage.
I was actually referring to his High 7-C state vs Kaneki if he has the bullet, cause yeah as you said Low 7-B vs 7-C would be bad. One energy blast from Taiyo would just kill.

It might be interesting if you give Kaneki some prior information about Taiyo's abilities and the Momo bullet.

However, I don't know how many of these bullets Yozakura has, how good of a shot he is, or if he can hit 100%. Will he attack with other weapons while holding the Momo bullet?
Taiyo only has a single bullet so if he loses his opportunity he's in trouble. He's a really good shot, as with a laser pointer he could shoot a button on a remote sitting in a tree from 100m away before gaining his powers or even his enhanced vision. Hitting 100% of the time might be stretching, but the Kagune is a biological part of Kaneki, so by using it he makes himself a bigger target.
Taiyo can also alter how the bullet moves through the air via his senses and skill which is on the Yozakura Physiology page:
When it comes to weaponry, once he loads it he can't convert his gun back into its sword form (or at least he doesn't), he can only shoot electricity from the gun, shoot the bullet, opt for martial arts or use whatever other weapon he has on his person. Taiyo's true spring blooming form does have more versatility, so he does have energy projection and explosions he can make from his fists, so losing out on his sword isn't too bad, however Kaneki may get suspicious when he realizes Taiyo is not using his sword forcing him to get more aggressive. Or if he sees Taiyo loading it into his gun
Honestly the more I think about it Ideally Kaneki would not want Taiyo to even shoot.
 
Yes but Kaneki is not Takizawa. While Kaneki would sacrifice a limb while in an active exchange. He hasn't done something like this with an explicit aim of making himself stronger mid battle (and minor stuff doesn't seem to do much for Kaneki anyway, Haise was getting bodied by Takizawa for a while). Nor is he gonna rip into his own skull to shreds or whatever other grievous injury he could do in such an awkward position.
I suppose you're right. I have cited this as a theoretical situation
Only exposed part of his body is his head, he's fully clothed otherwise, even wearing gloves. Hardening still applies to his face and eyes as it hardens all his cells. Taiyo was able to restrain a guy while he was having his lungs and heart punctured and the blades were being left in to stop him from just healing.
Does he use it from the start of the fight? Does it limit him? Is it in his nature to try to win with a choke?
Taiyo noticing his Kagune and that hes not some random grunt. Opens up with his swordsmanship to try slice him apart. If he consistently is failing to make much progress on a basic, slice to dust strat in the event Kaneki is succeeding at keeping him mid range. He'd switch to trying to restrain him via Steel Spider and grabs.
If that still somehow fails he'll try using lightning strike to see if he can make Kaneki faint
I agree this big jump will happen if Taiyo succeeds at stabbing his head or decapitating him, but are you sure most other attacks would still do this? Cause Shachi punched Kaneki in the gut with his bare hands and Kaneki did not get much stronger despite coughing up blood and being brought to his knees. (Which must've been a ton of internal organ damage) Instead Kaneki tried to fight smarter in preparation for his round 2.
Kaneki's powers and characteristics grew. Perhaps his RE became greater after acquiring a kakuji. At least it was after these events that we began to see leaps in power growth.
Taiyo only has a single bullet so if he loses his opportunity he's in trouble. He's a really good shot, as with a laser pointer he could shoot a button on a remote sitting in a tree from 100m away before gaining his powers or even his enhanced vision. Hitting 100% of the time might be stretching, but the Kagune is a biological part of Kaneki, so by using it he makes himself a bigger target.
Taiyo can also alter how the bullet moves through the air via his senses and skill which is on the Yozakura Physiology page:
Kaneki has already fought with fighters with increased accuracy, among whom there are those who can hit targets in a state of free fall, kill with a headshot without looking at the enemy and shoot down dozens of kagune bullets by throwing knives at them. Accuracy won't be a huge issue.
When it comes to weaponry, once he loads it he can't convert his gun back into its sword form (or at least he doesn't), he can only shoot electricity from the gun, shoot the bullet, opt for martial arts or use whatever other weapon he has on his person. Taiyo's true spring blooming form does have more versatility, so he does have energy projection and explosions he can make from his fists, so losing out on his sword isn't too bad, however Kaneki may get suspicious when he realizes Taiyo is not using his sword forcing him to get more aggressive. Or if he sees Taiyo loading it into his gun
Honestly the more I think about it Ideally Kaneki would not want Taiyo to even shoot.
However, Momo's bullet will be a huge problem. Kaneki will dodge random attacks, but I imagine Taiyo will base his entire tactic around this bullet when he realizes that the enemy is superior to him in strength. In that case, Kaneki will try to block it, which will mean Taiyo's victory. Although, I think it would be more interesting if Kaneki had information about the gun, and Taiyo had information about the kagune.
 
I find it incredibly funny that all 3 people participating in this thread prefer to remain neutral
 
Kaneki has already fought with fighters with increased accuracy, among whom there are those who can hit targets in a state of free fall, kill with a headshot without looking at the enemy and shoot down dozens of kagune bullets by throwing knives at them. Accuracy won't be a huge issue.
What he linked is way different though. Momo controls his bullets to the extent Taiyo didn't even notice dozens of shots had hit him, it's less accuracy and more control to the point it's stealth mastery. Also hitting targets in a freefall isn't impressive here, same with the headshot and shooting down a barrage.

However, Momo's bullet will be a huge problem. Kaneki will dodge random attacks, but I imagine Taiyo will base his entire tactic around this bullet when he realizes that the enemy is superior to him in strength. In that case, Kaneki will try to block it, which will mean Taiyo's victory. Although, I think it would be more interesting if Kaneki had information about the gun, and Taiyo had information about the kagune.
I'll vote Taiyo based off this. Even with prior knowledge, I think Kaneki inevitably will use his kagune for majority of the battle due to the ap gap being 3x which means he's more vulnerable to get hit by that bullet. There's also Taiyo being stacked in the sensory department and acrobatics so he won't have an issue maneuvering around Kaneki to dodge his attacks and land that bullet.
 
Does he use it from the start of the fight? Does it limit him? Is it in his nature to try to win with a choke?
Taiyo uses Hardening as soon as a fight starts all the time, with no drawbacks for keeping it active. To give you an idea. When Taiyo was really sick, causing his hardening to glitch out, it was on for an entire school day, and Taiyo had no issues with drawbacks towards himself. He was actually much more worried about controlling his strength cause he kept causing scenes (since he kept breaking things on accident).
It is very much in Taiyo's nature to win via choking someone out as well, and is something he was taught to do.
Kaneki has already fought with fighters with increased accuracy, among whom there are those who can hit targets in a state of free fall, kill with a headshot without looking at the enemy and shoot down dozens of kagune bullets by throwing knives at them. Accuracy won't be a huge issue.
What i'd say is basically what Arkenis said. With the addition that on top of Taiyo's existing accuracy, he can even amp the bullets to make them travel way faster though the air than his own speed.
However, Momo's bullet will be a huge problem. Kaneki will dodge random attacks, but I imagine Taiyo will base his entire tactic around this bullet when he realizes that the enemy is superior to him in strength. In that case, Kaneki will try to block it, which will mean Taiyo's victory. Although, I think it would be more interesting if Kaneki had information about the gun, and Taiyo had information about the kagune.
Altered the OP, its Low 7-B Post-Dragon vs True Spring Blooming
Kaneki knows about the bullet, while Taiyo has general knowledge on ghouls.
Minor note though is Taiyo gets further, much better damage reduction in his True Spring Blooming form, and he's now got good mid range and long range options with energy projection and explosion manip

I'll vote Taiyo based off this. Even with prior knowledge, I think Kaneki inevitably will use his kagune for majority of the battle due to the ap gap being 3x which means he's more vulnerable to get hit by that bullet. There's also Taiyo being stacked in the sensory department and acrobatics so he won't have an issue maneuvering around Kaneki to dodge his attacks and land that bullet.
OP has been altered to be Low 7-B TSB vs Low 7-B Post Dragon, so now instead Kaneki has a 1.4x advantage, which is quite small, but everything else, you said is still quite valid, so just clarifying if you wanna maintain your vote?
 
What he linked is way different though. Momo controls his bullets to the extent Taiyo didn't even notice dozens of shots had hit him, it's less accuracy and more control to the point it's stealth mastery. Also hitting targets in a freefall isn't impressive here, same with the headshot and shooting down a barrage.
Reflecting shots isn't impressive? It's literally a feat to shoot down enemy bullets with your own bullets, but it requires more precise movements because it's done with your hands.

However, if Taiyo freely controls the trajectory of his bullet and it's faster than his movements, then this is very difficult for Kaneki.

If I understand you correctly, Taiyo controls his bullet in the same way that Yondu from the MCU controls his arrow.
Taiyo uses Hardening as soon as a fight starts all the time, with no drawbacks for keeping it active. To give you an idea. When Taiyo was really sick, causing his hardening to glitch out, it was on for an entire school day, and Taiyo had no issues with drawbacks towards himself. He was actually much more worried about controlling his strength cause he kept causing scenes (since he kept breaking things on accident).
It is very much in Taiyo's nature to win via choking someone out as well, and is something he was taught to do.
Then I guess it'll be a stomp if we're talking about Kaneki's 7-C key. He just won't be able to hurt him
Altered the OP, its Low 7-B Post-Dragon vs True Spring Blooming
Kaneki knows about the bullet, while Taiyo has general knowledge on ghouls.
Minor note though is Taiyo gets further, much better damage reduction in his True Spring Blooming form, and he's now got good mid range and long range options with energy projection and explosion manip


OP has been altered to be Low 7-B TSB vs Low 7-B Post Dragon, so now instead Kaneki has a 1.4x advantage, which is quite small, but everything else, you said is still quite valid, so just clarifying if you wanna maintain your vote?
I would advise you to wait a bit before continuing this match. Kaneki's level is still being reviewed.

At the moment, his Low 7-B scales to 6.19 Megatons Dragon, but his Post-Dragon key will probably be upgraded in the coming days.
 
However, if Taiyo freely controls the trajectory of his bullet and it's faster than his movements, then this is very difficult for Kaneki.

If I understand you correctly, Taiyo controls his bullet in the same way that Yondu from the MCU controls his arrow.
Taiyo controls the trajectory and its faster than him.
However said bullets are not controlled on the level of Yondu’s remote control arrows.

Rather if he shot his bullet, he could shoot it in a manner where it curves in a specific direction or ricochet them like Shinzo could do. Although while he was trained pretty extensively by Shinzo it’d be exaggerating to say Taiyo’s close to his feats of marksmanship when it comes to how good he’d be at weapon ricochet attacks, so Taiyo won’t pull of 3-6 bounces in a row that hit the target perfectly.

An example of the potency of a Yozakura’s weapon control for example is that.
Let’s say Taiyo was using Pseudo flight + acrobatics to stay in the air, and for a brief moment he bursts past Kaneki and gets behind him. Then shoots.
The shot would be so gentle and be so quiet that Kaneki wouldn’t even know the bullet was fired until after he’s pierced by it and it’d be faster than Taiyo himself.
Or if he’s right in Kaneki’s face, he could ricochet by shooting the floor so it bounces and hits Kaneki in his chin or Kagune.

I would advise you to wait a bit before continuing this match. Kaneki's level is still being reviewed.

At the moment, his Low 7-B scales to 6.19 Megatons Dragon, but his Post-Dragon key will probably be upgraded in the coming days.
Noted then didn’t know Kaneki was under CRT.
 
Reflecting shots isn't impressive? It's literally a feat to shoot down enemy bullets with your own bullets, but it requires more precise movements because it's done with your hands.
Yeah it's not impressive compared to Momo's feat. It also depends on the skill of those who threw them. I believe we're talking about Mutsuki and Juuzo? They don't do anything special except fling their attacks in a standard barrage without much of a complex pattern, no quick changes in trajectory, I don't believe any omni-directional attack was done either. Momo straight up shot over a dozen shots in front of Taiyo and bypassed his senses and hit vital points.

OP has been altered to be Low 7-B TSB vs Low 7-B Post Dragon, so now instead Kaneki has a 1.4x advantage, which is quite small, but everything else, you said is still quite valid, so just clarifying if you wanna maintain your vote?
Yeah I'll maintain the vote.

I would advise you to wait a bit before continuing this match. Kaneki's level is still being reviewed.
Where's the crt or calc?

Also we're forgetting a big thing for Kaneki, though Taiyo's got some counters; Kaneki's got great sensory as a Ghoul, he's the most advanced one so he should have this almost passively.
 
Taiyo controls the trajectory and its faster than him.
However said bullets are not controlled on the level of Yondu’s remote control arrows.

Rather if he shot his bullet, he could shoot it in a manner where it curves in a specific direction or ricochet them like Shinzo could do. Although while he was trained pretty extensively by Shinzo it’d be exaggerating to say Taiyo’s close to his feats of marksmanship when it comes to how good he’d be at weapon ricochet attacks, so Taiyo won’t pull of 3-6 bounces in a row that hit the target perfectly.

An example of the potency of a Yozakura’s weapon control for example is that.
Let’s say Taiyo was using Pseudo flight + acrobatics to stay in the air, and for a brief moment he bursts past Kaneki and gets behind him. Then shoots.
The shot would be so gentle and be so quiet that Kaneki wouldn’t even know the bullet was fired until after he’s pierced by it and it’d be faster than Taiyo himself.
Or if he’s right in Kaneki’s face, he could ricochet by shooting the floor so it bounces and hits Kaneki in his chin or Kagune.
This guy seems crazy.

However, if Kaneki has prior knowledge of the bullet, he can start with a kakuji to increase his speed and copy the kagune of other ghouls. For example, he can create a doppelganger and a force field that is not even organic.

How exactly do bullets work? His physiology is due to his body being rebuilt to accommodate the new organ. However, genetically, he is still human
Noted then didn’t know Kaneki was under CRT.
It's not your fault, the revision just started the other day.
 
Yeah it's not impressive compared to Momo's feat. It also depends on the skill of those who threw them. I believe we're talking about Mutsuki and Juuzo? They don't do anything special except fling their attacks in a standard barrage without much of a complex pattern, no quick changes in trajectory, I don't believe any omni-directional attack was done either. Momo straight up shot over a dozen shots in front of Taiyo and bypassed his senses and hit vital points.
Okay, I misunderstood you. It's really not impressive compared to Momo's feat. I just thought you meant that Juzo and Suzuya's feats weren't feats of precision.
Where's the crt or calc?
Post-Dragon Kaneki key
Dragon calculation has been updated.

Earthquake calculation has also been updated, but I'm waiting for it to be evaluated
Also we're forgetting a big thing for Kaneki, though Taiyo's got some counters; Kaneki's got great sensory as a Ghoul, he's the most advanced one so he should have this almost passively.
It is worth noting that Hinami is able to use her sense of hearing and touch to detect opponents and find out their exact location, which was on the roof of a building 3 blocks away.

High hearing helped Donato detect an attack from behind and block it without turning around. Judging by the fact that Amon attacked in a jump, Donato did it using air vibrations.

Kaneki, in turn, has an instinctive reaction, which will allow him to maneuver from a shot. In general, his experience against kagune will help against an attack that freely changes its trajectory
 
High hearing helped Donato detect an attack from behind and block it without turning around. Judging by the fact that Amon attacked in a jump, Donato did it using air vibrations.
Sound works by the air vibrating so that's nothing special. It's likely just better hearing, although, given he jumped and knows how ghouls and doves fight, he just predicted here.
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