Bleaching of Nasu Tier 2.

[Wankbreaker]

This is the moment my great work is completed and the pages are reborn!

Deploying Third Noble Phantasm.



Anyway, the current justifications for tier 2 kinda suck. So I’m taking care of that. After this I’ll probably look at P&A changes.



The mooncell. Does not. contain. infinite parallel. worlds. (Or even parallel worlds at all.)



As accepted in this thread, all possibilities are created and kept within the inner sea.



https://vsbattles.com/threads/avalon-scaling-fix.175504/



The mooncell is also, explicitly bound by timelines, which is also one of the accepted points.





The mooncell thus, logically cannot contain these worlds. What it does is make accurate “predictions” instead, storing this data as spiritrons (light).



It just has the prediction data/parameters. But I’ll provide further proof. The mooncell records data of “futures that could be”, rather than futures that exist in actuality.

ムーンセルの中心核にして、その全て。

七つの階層におよぶ月の内部は、その実、ムーンセルにとっては“追加メモリ”でしかない。

ムーンセル中枢こそが月を運営し、地球を観測し、無限の過去と未来を納めた頭脳だ。

秒単位で枝分かれしていく運命を観測、演算し、光として閉じこめた単眼の箱。

何億光年もの光を閉じこめ、光によって稼働するこの結晶体を、ある人物はこう名付けた。

運命を一覧する系統樹。

情報のみで物理法則を書き換えるまで収束した光。

事象選択樹・熾天の檻[じしょうせんたくじゅ・アジェリカケージ]と。





The Moon Cell’s core, and at the same time, all of it.

The interior of the moon, spanning seven layers, is in reality nothing more than additional memory to the Moon Cell.

The Moon Cell’s central system itself is the brain that operates the moon, observes Earth, and contains countless pasts and futures. A monocular box that observes and calculates destinies branching every second, confining them as light.

This crystal, which confines light spanning hundreds of millions of light-years and operates via light, was named by a certain individual:

The phylogenetic tree that catalogs fate.

Light converged to the point of rewriting physical laws through information alone.

The Event Selection Tree - Blazing Heaven’s Cage [Jishou Sentakuju: Angelica Cage]."

I think it’s obvious that “hundreds of millions of light years” isn’t comparable to even one universe, let alone a “countless” number. When the mooncell grants your wish, it doesn’t even replace reality with another, nearly identical one to fit the requests of the wisher, it slowly nudges until the desired result is achieved, which can even take a decade. (Not to mention that it obviously scans Earth, and Earth alone.). The records are even directly called simulated.

かつては『あらゆる願いを叶える願望機』を指した言葉だったが、EXTRAでは『ムーンセルの使用権』を示す。

膨大な地球のシミュレート記録を保管するムーンセルを閲覧すれば、そこにはかならず『貴方が望む未来の地球』が存在している。

ムーンセルを使える事になった『貴方』は、ただ一言、ムーンセルに告げればいい。

『この、私にとって理想の未来を再現しろ』と。

ムーンセルは速やかに地球をその未来のカタチに運んでいくだろう。そのための方法を、実行手段を、月はすべて識っているのだから。

例えば『地球人類の女の子ぜんぶワイの妹にしてほしい』と願えば、きっと十年ぐらいで地球はそのような社会形式になると思われる。

あるいは、その夢が『リアルに見られる』装置を作るため、地球全体がそのように運営される。

人間は人間が想像する範囲において、実現できないものはない。それがどのような幻想、絵空事であっても、体験する手段はあるのである。





Holy Grail

"Originally, this term referred to a 'wish-granting device that fulfills all desires,' but in EXTRA, it signifies the right to use the Moon Cell.

If you access the Moon Cell—which stores vast simulated records of Earth—you will inevitably find “the future Earth you desire “ existing within it.

As one who has gained the right of usage of the Moon Cell, you need only issue a single command: “Recreate this ideal future for me.”

The Moon Cell will swiftly steer Earth toward that future form. For the Moon knows all methods and means to achieve it.

For example, were you to wish, Make all the girls on Earth my little sisters, Earth would likely adopt such a societal structure within a decade.

Or, to create a device that lets you experience that dream in reality, the entire planet would be reorganized accordingly.

Within the scope of human imagination, nothing is unattainable. No matter how fantastical or delusional, there exists a means to experience it."

It’s more accurate to consider the mooncell to not literally contain all of the parallel worlds, but be aware of their phenomena, and being able to recreate and observe them.



The amount of these possibilities are countless, not infinite,as stated in case files:

“Even this universe cannot sustain an expansion into infinite possibilities. But the total number of them is not within the grasp of human beings. Therefore, we say that it is

countless. And so perhaps the purpose of this being named Zepia is to limit the stage

and the people, and to reduce the scope of the possibilities we need to take into account.”

The universe cannot expand infinitely, there is a limit before the amount of entropy is too large to support, causing the universe to die and burn up.






So an infinite sized universe or multiverse in the setting of nasu, is impossible, which leads me to the Kama justification.



She’s rated Low 2-C for “being an infinite universe”.



I’ve just explained how her being infinite breaks the Nasu world setting, but I can go even further by inserting this line from Ooku.

この、冷たく寂しい無窮の世界で。

この、果てを忘れた無辺の宇宙で。



In this cold, desolate, endless world.

In this boundless universe that has forgotten its limits.

Kama’s conceptual universe expands by growing “herself”, making more copies of her. However, this doesn’t stop her from meeting the eventual end that Mahoyo points out if she expands too far. In fact, Infinity is stated to be a metaphor created by human cognition (which seems to be in line with the Case Files statement, in which that the number of parallel worlds are called infinite, but they’re a countless finite number in actuality.)







HA does immediately try to call angra mainyu’s shades infinite, but they’re numbered at over 100 million in a previous scene.



Now that truly infinite is out of the way, how do we tier this? 3-A? I would suggest that this isnt even applicable to her AP. (There is a discussion about it not even being equal to the universe in scale due to being a “conceptual” universe, but such discussion is probably unintuitive.)



Now, why is this? It’s just that, it’s inconsistent with the hype and showings of characters superior to her. For starters, Amaterasu and Sefar are hyped to be equal to a star, quite literally, even.

(For example, her Strength is A-rank, so if you think of it as 150 points, adding one level at A+ rank would double that number, putting it at 300 points.)

And if the Titan adjustment is added to that, 300 points at the first stage would become 3,000 at the second stage, 30,000 at the third stage, and so on. At the seventh stage, it would be 300,000,000.

This is an energy mass on the scale of a star, comparable to the power level of the legendary Golden White Face’s nine-tailed form (387,420,489).

その正体は反英霊であり、神霊クラス……というか、ほとんど神さまである。

力を失っているので人間の英霊レベルであるが、尾を増やし、霊格を最高値まで上げた場合、人間の知覚では全容が測れないほどのモノとなる。

それも当然、彼女の大本（おおもと）は日輪を奉ったモノ。その存在規模は太陽と同義なのだから。

ちなみに尾を一本取り戻すたび、キャス狐の力は九倍になっていく。マックス状態である九尾にもなれば、その数値は九の九乗。

Her true nature is that of an Anti-Heroic Spirit, a Divine Spirit-class being—or rather, she is nearly a god.

Though currently weakened to the level of a human Heroic Spirit, should she regrow her tails and elevate her spiritual stature to its peak, she would become an entity whose full scale exceeds human perception.

This is only natural—her origin lies in one worshipped as the sun. Her existence is equivalent in scale to the sun itself.

Incidentally, each time she regains one tail, Casko's power multiplies ninefold. Should she reach her maximum state of Nine Tails, her level of power would equal nine to the ninth power—387,420,489.

In lostbelt 7 even, Stellar Class is officially introduced into the franchise, which is stronger than Planetary class (and thus superior to people like Goetia, Kama,Draco) And the baseline? Output as much energy as the sun. Goredolf even uses an IRL factoid to explain the magnitude of power of a Stellar class being.

いやもうほとんどオルガマリー・アニムスフィアだろう

という存在であっても、ヤツは『異星の神』なのだ！

先の戦いでは恒星級の霊基を持っていた化け物だぞ！？ 太陽の生みだす１秒間のエネルギー量を知っているか？

我々人類が使ってきたエネルギー総量よりも多いらしい！



I mean, she basically is Olga Marie Animusphere at this point—

yet even so, she is undeniably the 『Alien God』!

That thing had a stellar-class Spirit Origin during the last battle— she’s a complete monster!?

Do you know how much energy the sun generates in just one second?

Apparently, it's more than the total amount of energy we humans have used throughout history!

Zeus does have a statement of his ultimate attack being Anti-Star System, but Anti (blank) NP’s are usually a matter of range, rather than destructive power. But also, a star-system can consist of just a single star on its lonesome. https://www.astro.gsu.edu/RECONS/TOP100.posted.htm



The extra solar system statement is to be a matter of hax-range, as it states that Buddha’s could “manage” the solar system, without suggesting anything on the terms of destruction. Buddha isn’t even offensively aligned.



So I propose:



Extra and everything else tier 2 gets set back to 5-A, with the exception of Nine Tailed Tamamo (she’s the only stellar class character who has a profile), who gets 4-C.

Ultimate Ones (and those who scale), get 4-C



Everyone who scales above Zeus gets a possibly 4-B rating (which still excludes Extra, with the exception of Amaterasu.)

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

This verse can’t catch a break bro

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

My man has a vendetta against the Nasuverse.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

My man has a vendetta against the Nasuverse.

Waiting for the inevitable nasuverse multi continental nerf so Deku runs the gauntlet

 

[Frey_Starlight]

this verse taking more L's then ID did imo

 

[SweetDao]

this verse taking more L's then ID did imo

ID mentioned, therefore I spawn

 

[Wankbreaker]

ID mentioned, therefore I spawn

Independent Manifestation: A++

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

this verse taking more L's then ID did imo

snip

@SweetDao you need to step up your game

 

[Tsotso]

Anyone with more than two braincells and no personal bias knows that besides The Root no character in the Nasuverse reaches infinite space busting levels.
The whole reason why the pruning phenomenon even exists is because the domain of human timelines has a finite limit for how many timelines it can sustain, with it being confirmed in LB7 that the universe of a human timeline is finite.

While I agree with this post's proposition, it will most likely not get approved for the simple reason that the people on this forum in charge of making these decisions are not objective but are biased and closed-minded. This is like trying to argue in favor of secular human rights in the medieval period where religious institutions and racist dogmas dictate public opinion.

The CCC Gilgamesh brainrot from 2020 has dealt irreparable damage to the Nasuverse powerscaling for the rest of eternity. There is no saving it. The more a person lacks in-depth knowledge about the Nasuverse, the more likely they are to believe the multiversal nonsense.
And since Nasuverse knowledge in the fandom is like a bell curve, the ones who know the limits of the Nasuverse are a small minority due to the powerscaling community's disgusting propensity for jumping on wank bandwagons without knowing anything about a verse.

Objective Nasuverse scaling is dead. And we have killed it.

 

[Wankbreaker]

snip

CCC Gilgamesh is a multiversal beyond fiction GOD. don’t you dare downplay my glorious king again, or I’ll use the report function

 

[Hasty12345]

Agree with the downgrade

 

[Elyartaker]

cook

 

[Harith0cell]

Agree with op

 

[Robo432343]

 

[John985]

the discussion rule really should be brought back.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

At this point is clear you really hate the verse for whatever reason....

 

[Ethan37]

The mooncell thus, logically cannot contain these worlds. What it does is make accurate “predictions” instead, storing this data as spiritrons (light).



It just has the prediction data/parameters. But I’ll provide further proof. The mooncell records data of “futures that could be”, rather than futures that exist in actuality.

It does.
Seems youre mixing two different stuff
Mooncell was indeed capable of calculating infinite possibilities, but rendering those realities isn't even related to Mooncell itself. The prediction and calculation of infinite possibilities of parallel worlds was the very function of the super quantum computer.
See here,yes it can calculate an infinite possibilities but if the world itself isn't capable to maintain those realities what more did you want?

#1

Whether the possibilities of maintaining those realities or not shouldn’t be the concern of this topic

Unfortunately there's not enough basis for your argument to limiting Nasuverse cosmologies to be capped at solar system level didn't you?

 

[Robo432343]

snip

this has literally been addressed in the OP

so make a new argument

 

[StrymULTRA]

At this point is clear you really hate the verse for whatever reason....

Try to not poison the well, please.

We got similar downgrades in the past like whatever happened to Demonbane, yet with Nasuverse is a hateboner?

 

[Ethan37]

this has literally been addressed in the OP

so make a new argument

You don't get the point

Whether the possibilities of maintaining those realities or not shouldn’t be the concern of this topic

You can't ignore the fact that it still capable to calculate those infinite possibilities->worlds
don't mixing stuff, see the imgur image above

 

[StrymULTRA]

Seems youre mixing two different stuff
Mooncell was indeed capable of calculating infinite possibilities, but rendering those realities isn't even related to Mooncell itself. The prediction and calculation of infinite possibilities of parallel worlds was the very function of the super quantum computer.
See here,yes it can calculate an infinite possibilities but if the world itself isn't capable to maintain those realities what more did you want?

This does not seem a good counter ngl.

Being able to calculate is not the same as being able to physically hold such quantities. We don't even have proofs of literal infinite-sized things being able to exist irl, yet we can calculate higher infinities.

 

[Arkenis]

Objective Nasuverse scaling is dead. And we have killed it.

Okay Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Robo432343]

i mean we have these statements

This object, which envisioned an infinite number of possible futures, can reshape the very fabric of reality

Nothing is impossible. It is truly an object of unimaginable power with infinite possibilities.

Our bands of light are the infinite possibilities of human history. Those born of humans will pose no threat to them.

There's no end to the parallel words. The possibility of opposite mirrors are infinite.

Though its supposed, an infinity of futures are recorded here in the moon.

Their swords cross but for a moment, yet in that moment, infinite possibilities play out

A Quantum Timelock is a metaphysical event, it calculates the average “value” of each parallel world’s events, then locks past events down. A phenomenon that separates what was, and is, from what might be. Our universe allows for countless possibilities and creates many parallels worlds and histories with different developments. The universe has a finite amount of energy to spend maintaining each parallel world. Because the universe itself would expire if these realities were to expand without limit, it conserves energy by, excising worlds, at specific intervals, that have veered too far from the strongest, most stable timelines.

It’s actually an infinite distance that cannot be covered even if you try for centuries.
The only thing that can serve as a bridge across the borderline to connect Moon Cell’s core to the normal address space is the arena that Moon Cell made to summon the victor of the Holy Grail War.
…Is how it’s supposed to be, but BB used an imaginary number space to force herself to become an infinite concept,
and by using a fake arena she managed to break past the borderline.

but that's about it

 

[Arkenis]

The day where w*nk destroyers and consistent scaling pushers come together in hopes for destroying the oppressive W*nk mercenaries corporation has come! Rejoice! It is our time to take back the profiles! No longer will we have tier 2 Saber! Bygone the days of FTL Shonens!! I see a wiki where my Deku can do battle with Gilgamesh himself and win!!! I see the matches of old being removed! I see the now, a wiki without any tier 2s (except Goku).

 

[LazyDaoist]

The first quote about Moon Cell possibilities makes sense but I tried to google the countless 無限 in the first statement but the dictionary said its Infinite?

 

[Ethan37]

This does not seem a good counter ngl.

Being able to calculate is not the same as being able to physically hold such quantities. We don't even have proofs of literal infinite-sized things being able to exist irl, yet we can calculate higher infinities.

it can calculate an infinite possibilities but if the world itself isn't capable to maintain those realities what more did you want?

Again, don’t mix two different things.

The scan above literally indicates that Mooncell is truly capable of simulating those infinite possibilities, but if the world's capacity doesn't support the idea of it being infinite, you can’t argue anything more than that. Let’s put that aside.
We already have more reliable sources to back up the concept of infinite worlds in Nasu, such as the Planet's Record of Existence (Starlog) and the Akashic Record, which provides us with the Second Magic, capable of observing each of those possibilities and turning them into reality.


Q: Are the three routes of Fate/stay night parallel worlds existing at the same time? I was curious since I was wondering how it would look to Zelretch.

A: They're parallel... sort of. But if Zelretch was observing, it would become true. My feelings on the matter are that I’d rather two routes disappear if one was true. If all of these became possible at the same time, the other routes would become meaningless.

And so, the human order with its culling phenomenon does align to maintain the stability and creation of parallel worlds continuity, and it goes on forever.

Mooncell is capable of simulating infinite possibilities, the Second Magic is the one that renders those possibilities into realities, and the Planet's Record of Existence is the endless dump of those records. Thus, it goes on forever. This is my point.

That's how it’s been portrayed within the verse until now, which you guys only saw it only from extella perspective,
If you insist to argue Mooncell doesn't have the capabilities to simulate all those infinite realities you have to bring up your evidence to disprove all these evidence above, good luck.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Downgrade as ya like, just don't try to Downgrade Godjuna tiers and above from Low 2-C. That guy pretty explicitly does a tier 2 for every cycle in his lostbelt.

 

[LazyDaoist]

Downgrade as ya like, just don't try to Downgrade Godjuna tiers and above from Low 2-C. That guy pretty explicitly does a tier 2 for every cycle in his lostbelt.

Didn't Godjuna downscale from Zeus?

Everyone who scales above Zeus gets a possibly 4-B rating (which still excludes Extra, with the exception of Amaterasu.)

 

[DaReaperMan]

Didn't Godjuna downscale from Zeus?

Then upgrade Zeus. In context there's no ************' reason for Godjuna to be any less than tier 2

 

[SweetDao]

Downgrade as ya like, just don't try to Downgrade Godjuna tiers and above from Low 2-C. That guy pretty explicitly does a tier 2 for every cycle in his lostbelt.

SS-sized lostbelt

 

[DaReaperMan]

SS-sized lostbelt

Heh.

Unless there was a big ***** wucky the only reason Assman could send Garnesha and Lakshmibai back in time was because Godjuna ****** up the timeline to the point where even when he restored it it was close to breaking.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Unless there was a big ***** wucky the only reason Assman could send Garnesha and Lakshmibai back in time was because Godjuna ****** up the timeline to the point where even when he restored it it was close to breaking.

Argument - "Hax only, not AP"

 

[SweetDao]

Heh.

Unless there was a big ***** wucky the only reason Assman could send Garnesha and Lakshmibai back in time was because Godjuna ****** up the timeline to the point where even when he restored it it was close to breaking.

I mean, unless I'm completely out of the loop, aren't Lostbelt limited to a certain area and beyond said area, it's the white desert?

Also, both aren't incompatible, you could have a "whatever-sized" realm and a timeline.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean, unless I'm completely out of the loop, aren't Lostbelt limited to a certain area and beyond said area, it's the white desert?

Lostbelts are their own worlds/universes that were pruned off from proper human history. What you see in the area is literally a fraction of them, make no mistake, QSH was explicitly separated from a lot of his crap in LB3 when the storm wall went up for this very reason.

 

[SweetDao]

Lostbelts are their own worlds/universes that were pruned off from proper human history. What you see in the area is literally a fraction of them, make no mistake, QSH was explicitly separated from a lot of his crap in LB3 when the storm wall went up for this very reason.

But... Don't you reach the border of LB1 during the story? Am I misremembering?

 

[DaReaperMan]

But... Don't you reach the border of LB1 during the story? Am I misremembering?

That's the storm wall.(probably not the proper term, I don't care to remember that) In essence, yes, it's the edge of the Lostbelt, not the edge of that world, which would come more and more into fruition as the Lostbelt expands.

 

[SweetDao]

That's the storm wall.(probably not the proper term, I don't care to remember that) In essence, yes, it's the edge of the Lostbelt, not the edge of that world, which would come more and more into fruition as the Lostbelt expands.

So... the world is finite on at least on two axes (length and depth), so you're arguing it's universe-sized or infinite sized on the height axis?

Because, while maybe you're right, you're just arguing that, well, the Lostbelts aren't universe-sized? Unless I misunderstood something

 

[DaReaperMan]

So... the world is finite on at least on two axes (length and depth), so you're arguing it's universe-sized or infinite sized on the height axis?

I'm arguing that a lostbelt taken wholesale is Low 2-C, yeah. So Godjuna did do his thing before it got downsized.

I mean Trees of emptiness have galaxies in them unless that's a gross mistranslation

 

[SweetDao]

I'm arguing that a lostbelt taken wholesale is Low 2-C, yeah. So Godjuna did do his thing before it got downsized.

I mean, if your argument is that he did so "before it was a lostbelt", then yeah, I can understand the argument.

I mean Trees of emptiness have galaxies in them unless that's a gross mistranslation

Weird

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean, if your argument is that he did so "before it was a lostbelt", then yeah, I can understand the argument.

The destabilization transferred to his lostbelt so yeah. Unless we want to say Godjuna uses his abilities literally twice and destabilizes an entire ass timeline despite remaking it lol