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Nasu: FTL? What’s that. What’s faster than light?

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So, what are you trying to downgrade? Are you trying to downgrade just the Servant tier characters, or are you also trying to downgrade the top and god tiers, too?
 
I went to replay Atlantis & Olympus and here are my thoughts.

The First time Mash & Musashi fight Dioscuri, Castor attempts to blitz Mash, and is saved by Musashi thanks to Holmes' Support Spell.
Aphrodite and Demeter appear, and Aphrodite uses her authority to directly attack their minds. After receiving permission from Zeus to kill Chaldea, Dioscuri and Talus engage in combat against Chaldea, under the mental debuff.

Musashi is under the support spell but it is unknown if Mash is under it. Although, I'll find it dumb that Mash would be faster than Musashi/Comparable to Musashi with a Support Spell, so I believe Holmes gave the buff just before the fight began. So any reaction feats from this scene cannot be used for Rel+ Base Servants.

The second time the Dioscuri appear is right after we've killed Aphrodite. They get the jump on Holmes and is saved by Caenis, with Holmes stating his head would've been on the ground. They then engage in combat against the Dioscuri, however this time, they are buffed by Athena Klironomia which increases Increases all combat abilities. So any fights from this scene also cannot be used for Rel+ Base Servants.

So yeah I find myself in full agreement with the OP after replaying the story, my apologies for the misinformed arguments before.

However, I would like to propose that we keep the Rel+ rating for Divine Spirit level Servants. The reason being Caenis saving Holmes from getting his head severed. Caenis in Olympus is a Divine Spirit, and Caenis hasn't taken any Klironomia, as only Mash and Musashi injected themselves with it.

Now to move on to the possible Anti-Feat for this, Chaldea did defeat Caenis once her invulnerability was exposed. It should be noted that Caenis was never this strong when she was alive, so her buffs are due to her status as a Divine Spirit because of her Noble Phantasm. So how did Chaldeans with their Massively Hypersonic Speed manage to beat Caenis who should be Relativistic+? Orion was the one who defeated Caenis, and Orion is a Grand Class Servant. Although he wasn't displaying his Grand Class Power levels due to Artemis situation, He still has godlike strength.
 
BreezeHM said:
So yeah I find myself in full agreement with the OP after replaying the story, my apologies for the misinformed arguments before.

However, I would like to propose that we keep the Rel+ rating for Divine Spirit level Servants. The reason being Caenis saving Holmes from getting his head severed. Caenis in Olympus is a Divine Spirit, and Caenis hasn't taken any Klironomia, as only Mash and Musashi injected themselves with it.
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So was this actually post-amp?

Also, what about Saber and Lancer "nearing the speed of light"? Is the translation just misleading?
 
Telomera said:
So was this actually post-amp?
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This would be with Holmes Support Spell confirmed for Musashi, Unknown for Mash but most likely. They don't have Klironomia at this stage though.
Telomera said:
Also, what about Saber and Lancer "nearing the speed of light"? Is the translation just misleading?
Click to expand...
It's not a misleading translation, I'd rule it an outlier. If the feat where Mash and Musashi react to SOL attacks were without Holmes' support, I'd say we could make a case for Combat Speed but unfortunately, that isn't the case.
 
Wankbreaker said:
Couldn’t dodge this, btw.
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I'm just gonna go ahead and say if that's genuinely coming from the stars that's going to be some variety of FTL unless it takes genuine minutes, or hell, hours if we don't assume it isn't coming from the sun (and checking the NP animation it sure as hell isn't). So this in specific wouldn't be an antifeat either way.
 
Deonment said:
I'm just gonna go ahead and say if that's genuinely coming from the stars that's going to be some variety of FTL unless it takes genuine minutes, or hell, hours if we don't assume it isn't coming from the sun (and checking the NP animation it sure as hell isn't). So this in specific wouldn't be an antifeat either way.
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It’s described as a meteor shot.

射手座となったケイローンが常に天の蠍を狙っているエピソードの具現化。
星を穿つという、弓兵が到達できる究極の一撃。
射つことを決定した時点で発射することが可能で、弓からではなく、欲しから放たれる流星の一撃。 死亡した際も、一ターン後に自動発動する。
宝具使用後、次の夜まで使用不可となる。
Click to expand...



The materialization of the legend where Chiron, having become Sagittarius, perpetually takes aim at the heavenly scorpion.
The ultimate strike an archer can attain—one said to pierce the stars.
A meteor strike that can be fired the moment the decision to "shoot" is made, released not from the bow but from desire. Even upon death, it automatically activates after one turn.
After using the Noble Phantasm, it becomes unusable until the next night.
Click to expand...
 
Wankbreaker said:
It’s described as a meteor shot.
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That doesn't really change my point, considering its shown to be directly coming from Sagittarius whenever we see it, stars can very much make and produce the heavier elements that would form a meteor if we are actually arguing that the shot is actually a meteor (which I doubt, as its called a meteor strike, which is entirely viable to be a metaphor in my mind for how strong the shot actually is), the only issue would be the ejection of said metals, which idfk.

Either way none of this actually contradicts what I said in the first place, but even if we were to go ahead and say it pulled a random chunk of rock from out of the asteroid belt, with the short ass time frame its going to me some form of FTL no matter which way you calc it. Unless you want to say the camera shifting to Saggitarius, showing stars around it twinkling, and (whatever the name of the star(s) at the arrow head are that I cannot remember right now) glowing before launching something at the target is fabricated by desire in some way. In which case I raise you 4-A Chiron and all servants.
 
Deonment said:
That doesn't really change my point, considering its shown to be directly coming from Sagittarius whenever we see it, stars can very much make and produce the heavier elements that would form a meteor if we are actually arguing that the shot is actually a meteor (which I doubt, as its called a meteor strike, which is entirely viable to be a metaphor in my mind for how strong the shot actually is), the only issue would be the ejection of said metals, which idfk.

Either way none of this actually contradicts what I said in the first place, but even if we were to go ahead and say it pulled a random chunk of rock from out of the asteroid belt, with the short ass time frame its going to me some form of FTL no matter which way you calc it. Unless you want to say the camera shifting to Saggitarius, showing stars around it twinkling, and (whatever the name of the star(s) at the arrow head are that I cannot remember right now) glowing before launching something at the target is fabricated by desire in some way. In which case I raise you 4-A Chiron and all servants.
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This is almost definitely not the real Sagittarius just like Ishtar doesn't shoot the actual Venus at people.
Textures, man. LB5 having a different AoG sky was a pretty important plot point
 
Deonment said:
That doesn't really change my point, considering its shown to be directly coming from Sagittarius whenever we see it, stars can very much make and produce the heavier elements that would form a meteor if we are actually arguing that the shot is actually a meteor
Click to expand...

Deonment said:
(which I doubt, as its called a meteor strike, which is entirely viable to be a metaphor in my mind for how strong the shot actually is), the only issue would be the ejection of said metals, which idfk.
Click to expand...
The shot is actually described to be really weak 👽
Deonment said:
Either way none of this actually contradicts what I said in the first place, but even if we were to go ahead and say it pulled a random chunk of rock from out of the asteroid belt, with the short ass time frame its going to me some form of FTL no matter which way you calc it.
Click to expand...
You do know that literal thousands of meteors fly by Earth every single day? 99.99% of them just aren’t a threat due to no risk of collision, or burning up in the atmosphere.
Deonment said:
Unless you want to say the camera shifting to Saggitarius, showing stars around it twinkling, and (whatever the name of the star(s) at the arrow head are that I cannot remember right now) glowing before launching something at the target is fabricated by desire in some way. In which case I raise you 4-A Chiron and all servants.
Click to expand...



It is a conceptual materialization of the Sagittarius constellation, but it is not as if it cannot activate without the constellation present.
Click to expand...
This is why, the wider type-moon fandom doesn’t take NP animations serious, and instead goes by their lore descriptions.
 
Wankbreaker said:
You do know that literal thousands of meteors fly by Earth every single day? 99.99% of them just aren’t a threat due to no risk of collision, or burning up in the atmosphere.
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And? That doesn't change my point, I'm saying that even if we actually argue that it's a meteor, which is defined as
a piece of rock or other matter from space that produces a bright light as it travels through the atmosphere -Cambridge Dictionary
Click to expand...

a small body of matter from outer space that enters the earth's atmosphere, becoming incandescent as a result of friction and appearing as a streak of light. -Oxford Dictionary
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That doesn't mean it can't be sourced from a star, because stars very much can have and concentrate enough solid matter/metal to form a meteor within themselves, it is just typically that it won't even be ejected unless the thing goes supernova (or some other supernatural stuff happens)
Wankbreaker said:
This is why, the wider type-moon fandom doesn’t take NP animations serious, and instead goes by their lore descriptions.
Click to expand...
The FGO NP animation is based on the Apocrypha scene, which basically shows the exact same thing, so the point stands.
Also the triple negative in that statement is wild and due to that literally says it can't be used without the constellation present, so
 
Deonment said:
That doesn't really change my point, considering its shown to be directly coming from Sagittarius whenever we see it, stars can very much make and produce the heavier elements that would form a meteor if we are actually arguing that the shot is actually a meteor (which I doubt, as its called a meteor strike, which is entirely viable to be a metaphor in my mind for how strong the shot actually is), the only issue would be the ejection of said metals, which idfk.

Either way none of this actually contradicts what I said in the first place, but even if we were to go ahead and say it pulled a random chunk of rock from out of the asteroid belt, with the short ass time frame its going to me some form of FTL no matter which way you calc it. Unless you want to say the camera shifting to Saggitarius, showing stars around it twinkling, and (whatever the name of the star(s) at the arrow head are that I cannot remember right now) glowing before launching something at the target is fabricated by desire in some way. In which case I raise you 4-A Chiron and all servants.
Click to expand...
FGO profile says that there are heroic spirits (not divine spirits) who can catch up to him during the NP, so unless there are just MFTL+ heroic spirits running about, it makes zero sense for this NP animation to be literal.
 
Deonment said:
The FGO NP animation is based on the Apocrypha scene
Click to expand...
Ever fallen asleep while watching Fate/Apocrypha? Well, you’re not alone. Apparently, its studio was tasked with creating a TV anime that would help insomnia patients with sleep. Inspired by the infamously boring Japanese novel, the studio got to work creating the most sleep-inducing show imaginable. When tested with patients, a staggering 90% increase was shown in sleep time and quality. So if you're ever looking for a good nap, just remember to put on a Fate/Apocrypha episode.
 
Deonment said:
That doesn't mean it can't be sourced from a star, because stars very much can have and concentrate enough solid matter/metal to form a meteor within themselves, it is just typically that it won't even be ejected unless the thing goes supernova (or some other supernatural stuff happens)
Click to expand...
It’s never directly stated to be from a star. In fact, the constellation ( and the image that the NP creates) that appears is conceptual, and the NP can be used even without the actual constellation present.

That means that the NP doesn’t actually come from Sagittarius, simple as that.


Deonment said:
The FGO NP animation is based on the Apocrypha scene, which basically shows the exact same thing, so the point stands.
Also the triple negative in that statement is wild and due to that literally says it can't be used without the constellation present, so
Click to expand...
Both the Apoc anime and manga have it fire above the atmosphere.



Again, please stop using NP animations over lore descriptions.
 
Tllmbrg said:
This literally looks like it fires it from the stars, why are you using that scan lol
Click to expand...
It’s already shining in the atmosphere. It doesn’t make any sense for Sagittarius to suddenly grow brighter.

Why are we pretending that the explicitly CONCEPTUAL manifestation of the constellation is real. what in the actual
 
Scorpion Shot [Noble Phantasm]
Antares Snipe. Archer of Black’s trump card, a sniping Noble Phantasm that shoots a shining star. It is a conceptual materialization of the Sagittarius constellation, but it is not as if it cannot activate without the constellation present. It has a tracking ability, naturally, and it doesn’t even need for its true name to be released or for it to be filled with prana in order to activate. After all, as long as there is a night sky, “the star of the archer always aims at the scorpion”, and so it only requires for him to move his fingers away from the already drawn bow. It has a secondary effect, but, like in the novels, there is extremely little chance of it being spoken of even if the Noble Phantasm is used. However, it can only shoot once every night. Considering the average length of a normal Holy Grail War, he would be limited to using it about fourteen times.
Though its rank is high, it has the weakness of not having attack power worthy of special mention, so he has to try to achieve a one-shot kill as much as possible each time he uses it.
In his battle against Mordred, Archer could not see any weak points in her armor and feared that she might escape after he used it, so he withheld using the Noble Phantasm.
Fate/Apocrypha material - Encyclopedia: Scorpion Shot [Noble Phantasm], p.155-156
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Yeah it isn't literally coming from the actual stars, its just a representation of the constellation
 
Antares Snipe. The trump card of Chiron, the "Black" Archer, a sniping Noble Phantasm that fires a shining star. Though it embodies the concept of Sagittarius, it does not strictly require the presence of Sagittarius to activate. It possesses inherent tracking capabilities and requires neither a True Name release nor magical energy charging to deploy. After all, “so long as the night sky exists, the Archer’s star eternally aims at the Scorpion," and the only necessity is the release of the drawn arrow. As a secondary effect, even when activated, it carries an extremely low risk of detection—mirroring its portrayal in the main story. However, it can only be used once per night. Considering the average duration of a Holy Grail War, its maximum usage would likely cap at fourteen times.

While its rank is high, its drawback lies in its lack of exceptional offensive power, demanding meticulous precision to ensure each strike guarantees a kill. During his battle with Mordred, Chiron refrained from using it due to concerns that her armor’s weaknesses were not visible, risking her escape.



アンタレス・スナイプ。“黒”のアーチャーことケイローンの切り札、輝く星を射出する狙撃宝具である。射手座の概念の具現化であるが、射手座が無ければ発動できない訳ではない。追尾機能は無論のこと、発動させる際に真名の解放や魔力の充填などは一切必要がない。何しろ、夜空にある限り「射手の星は蠍を狙い続けている」のであり、必要なのは引き絞った矢から指を離すかどうかだけなのだから。副次的な効果であるが、本編同様に宝具を発動したとしても悟られる可能性が極めて低い。ただし、狙撃可能なのは一夜に一度だけ。通常の聖杯戦争の平均開催期間を考えると使用できるのは十四回が限度だろう。
ランクは高いものの、難点として攻撃力には特筆すべき部分がないので運用の際には、可能な限り一撃一殺を心がけなければならない。
モードレッドとの戦いの際には、鎧の弱点が見えてこなかったために逃げられることを憂慮し、使用を控えた。
Click to expand...
 
Wankbreaker said:
It’s already shining in the atmosphere. It doesn’t make any sense for Sagittarius to suddenly grow brighter.

Why are we pretending that the explicitly CONCEPTUAL manifestation of the constellation is real. what in the actual
Click to expand...
What?
If your argument is that it's a conceptual attack why does it shining even matter, it can do whatever it wants.
I'm just noting that for all intent and purpose this looks like something is being shot from space, and considering the NP in question it'd be weird for it to just spawn at the edge of the atmosphere rather than from the actual stars.
Your argument is to use lore/depictions outside FGO but I just don't see any contradictions in this instance, idk what to tell you.
 
Hypertornado099 said:
Yeah it isn't literally coming from the actual stars, its just a representation of the constellation
Click to expand...

Tllmbrg said:
What?
If your argument is that it's a conceptual attack why does it shining even matter, it can do whatever it wants.
I'm just noting that for all intance and purpose this looks like something is being shot from space, and considering the NP in question it'd be weird for it to just spawn at the edge of the atmosphere rather than from the actual stars.
Your argument is to use lore/depictions outside FGO but I just don't see any contradictions in this instance, idk what to tell you.
Click to expand...
Lore inside FGO is fine. NP animations on their own are not.



I’m just arguing that the NP description says Chiron isn’t firing from the actual star, as it’s a conceptual materialization, and directly says that the actual star’s presence isn’t even required.
 
Wankbreaker said:
I’m just arguing that the NP description says Chiron isn’t firing from the actual star, as it’s a conceptual materialization, and directly says that the actual star’s presence isn’t even requrequired
Click to expand...
Okay cool, I was just saying you using visuals from other sources was weak because it still looks like it's being shot from the stars.
Also I'm pretty sure the star not being present refers to just not seeing them, since it's not like the consentallation randomly disappears somewhere.
 
Tllmbrg said:
Okay cool, I was just saying you using visuals from other sources was weak because it still looks like it's being shot from the stars.
Also I'm pretty sure the star not being present refers to just not seeing them, since it's not like the consentallation randomly disappears somewhere.
Click to expand...

射手座が無ければ is more of “even if there is no Sagittarius”, so it’s definitely talking about complete absence

Either way, this is off-topic, and the thread passed, so I’ll probably apply it soon.
 
Robo432343 said:
what are we doing to do about karna catching a universe cleaving sword
Click to expand...
did this happen in Taiyohime, where Type-Sun Ciel is the main heroine.

Also, doesn’t davinci explicitly say it’s a far smaller feat than creating a universe.
Textures aren’t universes, btw.
 
Wankbreaker said:
did this happen in Taiyohime, where Type-Sun Ciel is the main heroine.

Also, doesn’t davinci explicitly say it’s a far smaller feat than creating a universe.
Textures aren’t universes, btw.
Click to expand...
i dont know
where is the statement of davinci saying its smaller than creating a universe

but the texture covers the universe?

what about the bolg ftl statement??

or this
The ultimate sword technique that assaults the opponent from three directions “simultaneously”. Strictly speaking, this is neither a Noble Phantasm nor a magical phenomenon. The nameless martial artist who materialised as “Kojiro” sought nothing but the pinnacle of swordsmanship during his life. He trained himself in pursuit of swordsmanship, and doing nothing but swing his sword. After a long period of time, his technique finally reached another state. A flash from this world, followed by two absolutely simultaneous, over-lapping flashes that disregard the concept of time and space, producing a slash attack that arrives from three different directions. This is the “Multidimensional Refraction Phenomenon—Kischua Zelretch” that transcends speed, dexterity, feint and many other elements. Although with some limitations, a nameless martial artist who knows naught of sorcery or True Magic is able to tread into the realm of the “Second Magic”
Click to expand...

didn't holmes outrun tesla's radio waves in FGO?
 
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