Nasu: FTL? What’s that. What’s faster than light?

[Wankbreaker]

The Type-Moon cabal validated the posting of this as long as I point out that this isn’t exactly directly aligned with Crim’s revamp attempt. So please, actually engage with the arguments this time. (I’m adding a few new scans that I found.

Anyway:


(All FGO scans, will be translated from the JP version, due to NA having.... questionable quality.)

So, LS ( and the actual laws of physics), are treated as a consistent limit in verse. I will collect a few of the statements, here.

■ Time Manipulation: A He can freely speed up or slow down any concepts (including all magical energy, physical movement, thought speed, etc) within his area of effect for as long as he has the magical energy for it. However, the increase or decrease of speed stops at reasonable levels, meaning it's naturally impossible for him to produce perfect stasis, light speed, or time reversal.

- Thia's profile, Fate Strange Fake. (Keep in mind this statement also includes thought speed.)

Even Gods, during the Age of Gods at the peak of their power had to follow the laws of physics, unless they had a particular authority to bypass this.

ケツァル・コアトル:
無理に決まってます！
神にだって質量保存の法則は働くのです！

ケツァル・コアトル:
あんなのはもう大絶滅以前の、
創世記だけの権能です！　宇宙人でも倒せないヨ！


Quetzalcoatl:
"No way that’s possible! Even gods aren’t exempt from the law of conservation of mass!"

Quetzalcoatl:
"That kind of Authority vanished with the Genesis era—the age before the great extinction! Not even aliens could stand a chance against that!"

- Babylonia, Section 18.

ＢＢ:
それこそ光を超える速度が必要です。

ＢＢ:
いえ、電脳化しているので光速に達するのは容易いですけど、霊基を構成する霊子は耐えられません。

ＢＢ:
そんなコトをすればＡ級サーヴァントだろうと霊基は使い物にならなくなります。

ＢＢ: SE.RA.PHから脱出できたとしても、その途中で燃え尽きておしまいです。普通なら。

BB:
"That would require surpassing the speed of light itself!"

BB:
"Though reaching light speed is trivial for a digitized being like me, the spiritrons composing your Saint Graph couldn’t endure it."

BB:
"Attempt such a stunt, and even an A-rank Servant’s Saint Graph would be reduced to scrap!"

BB:
"Even if you escaped SE.RA.PH, you’d burn to ashes mid-transit. At least, under normal circumstances."

She says that a digitized being would have no problem reaching lightspeed ,which is fine, since they technically have no mass, but..... Kiara implies exceeding it should be impossible, even within the bounds of the mooncell.

殺生院キアラ: 銀河の果てに飛ばしたのに??！概念宇宙であれ、一瞬で詰められる距離ではありません！光より速く飛んできたとでも！？

Kiara Sesshouin: I hurled her to the farthest reaches of the galaxy! Even in a conceptual universe, that distance can’t be crossed in an instant!Did she… soar here faster than light itself?!

The Extra Servants dont do this feat with actual speed, but a flavor of time reversal (and in Gil's case, a warp drive.)

"Mmh! I may not fully comprehend it, but I have just overtaken light!
Without a doubt, it is the power of love!
And mark my words—
Should my master face peril, I would turn back time itself to rush to their aid—
For that is the crowning role of the stage and the fiery resolve of a maiden in love!"
「うむ！　よく分からぬが、さきほど光を追い抜いた！　紛れも無く愛の力だな！　そして知るがよい。　主の危機とあらば、時間を遡ってもはせ参じる―――　それが舞台の華役にして、恋する乙女の心意気だ！」

Tamamo makes it even more explicit.

時間の逆行もなんのその、
馬頭星雲から銀河系まで無に短縮！
これがゼロ距離恋愛というものです！


"Even the reversal of time is nothing to it—reducing the distance from the Horsehead Nebula to the galaxy into nothing! This is what is called zero-distance love!"

How this got passed before is honestly, mind-boggling to me. Any amount of critical thinking should lead you to the opposite conclusion, but on to the final scan of this thread, as I believe i've proven my point enough.

U-Olga Marie, and Chaldea, are too slow to outpace ORT's regeneration (it is impossible to outpace it's regeneration within the confines of the laws of physics, so U-Olga had to use one of her Seven Super Authorities, Tachyon Jail, to manipulate FTL particles (Tachyons), to accelerate the time of Chaldea, thus technically moving faster than light.

タキオン操作。時間が止まっているのではなく、私たちは時間より速く行動している、という事ですね。

"Tachyon manipulation. To put it plainly, it’s not that time has stopped—we’re simply moving faster than time itself."

Okita J’s NP that allows her to move at “sub-light speed” with the help of servantverse tech embedded in her Spirit origin is described as beyond the limits of physical movement:

Okita J’s profile.

Jet Sandanzuki
Rank: C
Type: Anti-Unit
Range: 1~22
Maximum Targets: 15 people

The miraculous single hit emitted by over-boosting the super MAKOTO DRIVE engine installed in the jetpack. Extreme jet acceleration beyond the physical limitations of any person causes the three-stage thrust to execute at sublight speed, which results in its velocity consuming the surrounding air and induces an outrageous power output that swallows up and annihilates the target's surroundings, despite it being a single target attack. Due to the over-the-limit load it puts on the user, it can cause incapacitation at random.

Calvaria (which is literally just light), is described as impossible for Red Arcueid to dodge, and is even called unavoidable in Ciel’s FGO profile)

The 25th Idea Blood, known as the Star of Calvaria. The greater magecraft that Executor Ciel devised after defeating the Ancestor who taught her the sword. By deploying magecraft reflectors into the stratosphere, sunlight is converged and released as a lethal beam, resembling a descending guillotine. As long as the Star of Calvaria remains visible to the target on the ground, evasion is impossible as it strikes with blinding speed.

Musashi is also completely unable to react to the Dioscuri moving at light speed, only being able to do so once amped by Nanomachines and Holmes support spell, and even then, only barely being able to do it:





Basically, LS/FTL travel (and even reactions) is impossible for like, 98%+ of the verse.

So, I suggest two things.

1. Servants should be definitively capped to their previous Massively Hypersonic ratings.

2. Everyone in the verse caps at Rel without a special authority to go higher,though no one else should scale.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Obviously, this is fine(Now that there is an alternative speed given and the go-ahead has been given) As discussed on discord, there is nothing bulletproof with Nasuverse speeds, so pick one, I have no opinion here.

 

[Hasty12345]

Agree

 

[Qawsedf234]

Looks alright

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yeah, I 100% agreed as there is so many speed feats to keep track of especially in FGO alone.

 

[BreezeHM]

I agree with the downgrade, but not to MHS.

It's been shown a couple times that Servants can fight near the speed of Light.

• Saber and Lancer fighting each other at near Lightspeed
• Mash and Musashi without any buffs are still able to fight against the Dioscuri.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I agree with the downgrade, but not to MHS.

It's been shown a couple times that Servants can fight near the speed of Light.

• Saber and Lancer fighting each other at near Lightspeed
• Mash and Musashi without any buffs are still able to fight against the Dioscuri.

The second scan is literally right before Musashi explained what happened,im 99% sure.

Either that, or after they consumed the nano machines.

Anyway you slice it, they were amped.

“approaching light speed” is less of a quantifiable speed statement than nearing light speed. For example, moving from mach 5 to like 10 could be considered approaching light speed. Even in Zero, the Mach-ranges are consistently pushed otherwise. Okita J’s profile is also a contradiction to this,as it pushes that rel movements are out of the bounds of servants.

Also, are we really going to argue that servants react faster than RED ARCUEID? She completely blitzed Powered Ciel in the remake, who is herself able to fight divine spirit level entities in the form of dead apostle ancestors

 

[Apeironaxim]

“approaching light speed” is less of a quantifiable speed statement than nearing light speed. For example, moving from mach 5 to like 10 could be considered approaching light speed.

Ok, no. In what world would you want to use light speed as a measuring stick if you intend to be nowhere in even the vague ballpark near it.
"Well technically you're getting closer to light speed if you go from mach 5 to 10, so you could say that's approaching light speed"
Essentially saying the very notion of accelerating to become faster at any level is technically approaching light speed, so therefor it's a worthless statement. Absolutely not, and im baffled this was even an attempted point.
Your other points are fine and make sense, so seriously what is with this part? It's just nonsense
(Also what do you mean [“approaching light speed” is less of a quantifiable speed statement than nearing light speed] when the Saber and Lancer scan doesn't say "approaching light speed"? It indeed does say "nearing the speed of light". Again not that it saying "approaching" would even assist the point, but like, im just baffled because it does indeed say "nearing")

 

[Wankbreaker]

The second scan is literally right before Musashi explained what happened,im 99% sure.

Either that, or after they consumed the nano machines.

Anyway you slice it, they were amped.

“approaching light speed” is less of a quantifiable speed statement than nearing light speed. For example, moving from mach 5 to like 10 could be considered approaching light speed. Even in Zero, the Mach-ranges are consistently pushed otherwise. Okita J’s profile is also a contradiction to this,as it pushes that rel movements are out of the bounds of servants.

Also, are we really going to argue that servants react faster than RED ARCUEID? She completely blitzed Powered Ciel in the remake, who is herself able to fight divine spirit level entities in the form of dead apostle ancestors

This is also Fate/Zero, in the same fight even iirc, claiming that Saber’s speed is three times higher than normal after receiving amps, like removing her armor, moving only in the mach ranges...

The Invisible Air that compresses the air and refracts light in an illusion can be used in another way. The instant the bounded field is released it can blow the opponent with a single long distance strike with a gale made out of the super high pressure of the condensed air.
And this was the application of Saber's plan. The point of holding the sword backward in a wide stance was for that― to accelerate the air strike even more.
Released from the golden sword, a jet of air comes out from behind Saber. By releasing her armor to increase her prana burst further, her body changes into a supersonic bullet.
At this point, Saber's speed is three times higher than normal. It's already too late for an ambush attack or an evasion the instant she steps forward. Even if Lancer's spear can deal a serious wound to Saber, he will receive a lethal strike the same instant. That is certainly a strike made to risk one's life for a certain victory, ready to even have her flesh cut or her bones severed. Breaking through the wall of air at several times the speed of sound, the shockwave of the rush blew the surrounding rubbles like leaves.

 

[Wankbreaker]

• Mash and Musashi without any buffs are still able to fight against the Dioscuri.

Mash explains how she couldn’t even move, so her being able to fight is false.

今、少しも……動けずに……
I couldn’t even move……

[NA] Script 0300060330

Atlas Academy DB - FGO Game Data Navigator

apps.atlasacademy.io

 

[BreezeHM]

The second scan is literally right before Musashi explained what happened,im 99% sure.
Either that, or after they consumed the nano machines.

Anyway you slice it, they were amped.

The scene you're using to downgrade is the first appearance of Dioscuri in Olympus. Dioscuri charges at Mash off guard (since she doesn't have orthinax fully equipped), and is saved by Musashi, thanks to the support spell.

The combat scene happens after Aprohodite and demeter appears and does her mental debuff. So Musashi & Mash are fighting even while debuffed, although it only effects their minds but still worth noting. Additionally, Musashi says she can take down either one, but not both if she sacrifices herself.

“approaching light speed” is less of a quantifiable speed statement than nearing light speed. For example, moving from mach 5 to like 10 could be considered approaching light speed. Even in Zero, the Mach-ranges are consistently pushed otherwise. Okita J’s profile is also a contradiction to this,as it pushes that rel movements are out of the bounds of servants.

That's not how we treat it on the wiki. Any statement that says near the speed of light will grant you Rel+. Okita's profile shouldn't be used to cap the speed, since there are other servants with Rel and even FTL stuff on their profiles.

Santa Karna's FTL punches, MHX Alter's FTL movement etc. Some things shouldn't be possible and yet, are possible (which is a big problem with this verse)

Also, are we really going to argue that servants react faster than RED ARCUEID? She completely blitzed Powered Ciel in the remake, who is herself able to fight divine spirit level entities in the form of dead apostle ancestors

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Arceuid can't escape Ciel's Light Speed Attack. Why would this go against Rel+?

This is also Fate/Zero, in the same fight even iirc, claiming that Saber’s speed is three times higher than normal after receiving amps, like removing her armor, moving only in the mach ranges...

It's not the same fight. Your scene comes from Act 3 Part 5, while the near light speed is from Act 11 Part 3.

It's even mentioned how they were going all out this time

The situation of battle tonight—on one hand was a re-enactment of the showdown at the warehouses, but the battle of their crossing swords was even more intense than the first—fiercer, more direct, more final; it was a direct clash of strength on strength.

Between the two there was no need for mutual evaluation, nor the use of tricks to confuse the other. Lancer held only one lance right from the beginning; the blade of Saber’s sword was also completely revealed. Neither used means of plots and tricks. Even faster, even more imposing. After one made a move, the other would immediately retaliate at full strength with a blow that would counter the first. A simple contest of skill, blade of sword against point of lance, even more intense, even more white-hot.

Mash explains how she couldn’t even move, so her being able to fight is false.

[NA] Script 0300060330

Atlas Academy DB - FGO Game Data Navigator

apps.atlasacademy.io

Because she was off guard, and not ready for combat. The fact she was able to fight against the Dioscuri, and the Talus Giants at the same time, while suffering from Aprohdite's debuff says enough.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Makes sense

 

[Tipoima]

Santa Karna's FTL punches, MHX Alter's FTL movement etc. Some things shouldn't be possible and yet, are possible (which is a big problem with this verse)

Santa Karna is son of a Sun god for whom it kinda might be okay to have this kind of authority, and he's a comedic event character with loosened standards for what is and isn't allowed or if he even actually exists in main canon.

MHXA is literally from Servantverse which has things like "Artorium" and "Kykeon particles", they quite literally don't operate on the same laws and so can't be used to scale anything else. (I'd also like a scan of that? What's the context)

 

[Wankbreaker]

The scene you're using to downgrade is the first appearance of Dioscuri in Olympus. Dioscuri charges at Mash off guard (since she doesn't have orthinax fully equipped), and is saved by Musashi, thanks to the support spell.

She got completely statued,with Ortenaus still at least partly equipped.

The combat scene happens after Aprohodite and demeter appears and does her mental debuff. So Musashi & Mash are fighting even while debuffed, although it only effects their minds but still worth noting. Additionally, Musashi says she can take down either one, but not both if she sacrifices herself.

Musashi makes it VERY apparent that she couldn’t react to the Dioscuri without Holmes support spell, and that even a sword saint (which is what she is, iirc), couldn’t be able to do a slash with that speed. We don’t know how she plans on sacrificing herself.

That's not how we treat it on the wiki. Any statement that says near the speed of light will grant you Rel+. Okita's profile shouldn't be used to cap the speed, since there are other servants with Rel and even FTL stuff on their profiles.

If there’s a profile that says beyond the limits of physical ability, why would I not take it for its word?

Santa Karna's FTL punches, MHX Alter's FTL movement etc. Some things shouldn't be possible and yet, are possible (which is a big problem with this verse)

Santa Karna’s profile ends the statement ending with a probably, implying the statement is comedic in nature, like everything else about the profile. I mean, that is what he is, a comedic character.

Also, link to the FTL movement scan? Doesn’t exactly matter, as not only do servant verse people use warp drives (which is a way to achieve the illusion of FTL travel within the bounds of physics).

She literally inherits all the skills from her past self (MHX), which includes the ability to use a warp function on pretty much anything, even on stuff that previously didn’t have that function.

Independent Action: A
Though it's hard to believe she was once a Saber-class, she has retained the skills from her previous class before becoming a Foreigner.
"In harsh missions, ruthless self-judgment is sometimes necessary, you see," she declares with a smug look of satisfaction.

She matches and loses to PHH servants just fine as well, and her non-warp flightspeeds are able to be tracked by Ritsuka just fine.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Arceuid can't escape Ciel's Light Speed Attack. Why would this go against Rel+?

She couldn’t even react to it. Yet you’re arguing servants could react to an attack of equivalent speeds.

It's not the same fight. Your scene comes from Act 3 Part 5, while the near light speed is from Act 11 Part 3.

It's even mentioned how they were going all out this time

Saber had to completely remove her armor to make her Mana Burst go beyond the normal limit in order to move at those speeds. What part of that doesn’t mean all out?

Because she was off guard, and not ready for combat. The fact she was able to fight against the Dioscuri, and the Talus Giants at the same time, while suffering from Aprohdite's debuff says enough.

You mean, after receiving the nanomachine amp?

 

[Tipoima]

Arguably, even MHS speed is stretching it.
If you look at any fight with humans (be it Rin beating up Medea with no external amps or Wodime fighting several Servants with his nearly dead body without any explicit amps at all) then it just doesn't make sense for 99% of Servants to be anywhere near that speed.

 

[BreezeHM]

She got completely statued,with Ortenaus still at least partly equipped.


Musashi makes it VERY apparent that she couldn’t react to the Dioscuri without Holmes support spell, and that even a sword saint (which is what she is, iirc), couldn’t be able to do a slash with that speed. We don’t know how she plans on sacrificing herself.

And then right after, they jump into the actual fight. If Mash and Musashi are so slow that they are considered statues to Dioscuri, it does not make sense for them to be capable of engaging in combat against the Dioscuri alongside Two Giants. They would just get blitzed and everything's over.

If there’s a profile that says beyond the limits of physical ability, why would I not take it for its word?

Because there's clear statements and actions of people moving beyond it. I mean Dioscuri's very existence goes against this.

Santa Karna’s profile ends the statement ending with a probably, implying the statement is comedic in nature, like everything else about the profile. I mean, that is what he is, a comedic character.

That would be the case if it wasn't for his EX Rank Agility. And EX Rank Parameters are defined as

A set of rules for representing the rank of a particular status. They range from A~E. EX is in a league of its own, representing powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless.

Look at Assassin of Shinjuku. His Noble Phantasm allows him to move so fast "It is said that he moves so swiftly that his shadow doesn't even have time to reach the ground." And his Agility is only A+.

Also, link to the FTL movement scan? Doesn’t exactly matter, as not only do servant verse people use warp drives (which is a way to achieve the illusion of FTL travel within the bounds of physics).

She literally inherits all the skills from her past self (MHX), which includes the ability to use a warp function on pretty much anything, even on stuff that previously didn’t have that function.

Here. Either way, let's not get sidetracked with FTL stuff.

She couldn’t even react to it. Yet you’re arguing servants could react to an attack of equivalent speeds.

If you're talking about the scan from your OP, can you add the scans from before and after, or send the link, because to me, this seems more because of the Range of the ability rather than the speed (Can't really dodge an attack that covers an entire city)

Saber had to completely remove her armor to make her Mana Burst go beyond the normal limit in order to move at those speeds. What part of that doesn’t mean all out?

Because in the next fight, It's said that they're going faster and are fighting at their limits. Even if Saber had to do extra things, it doesn't discredit this scene, where they're clearly going beyond what they did during the warehouse fight.

You mean, after receiving the nanomachine amp?

This is all during the first appearance of Dioscuri. Unless I'm misremembering, Mash and Musashi didn't receive any nanomachines in Atlantis, so this is them in base.

Santa Karna is son of a Sun god for whom it kinda might be okay to have this kind of authority, and he's a comedic event character with loosened standards for what is and isn't allowed or if he even actually exists in main canon.

Just because he has divinity doesn't mean he automatically gets FTL movement, otherwise you would have Caenis with FTL movement, and she got manhandled by the Dioscuri prior to her Divinity Ascension. Refer to what I replied to Wankbreaker for the comedy effect. From what I remember, all events are considered canon (as much as I disagree with it), so it's fine.

MHXA is literally from Servantverse which has things like "Artorium" and "Kykeon particles", they quite literally don't operate on the same laws and so can't be used to scale anything else. (I'd also like a scan of that? What's the context)

We're getting off topic here, she's not being used to scale anything. She's just an example that a single servan't can't be used to justify a cap, as another servant can be used to raise the cap.

 

[Tipoima]

That would be the case if it wasn't for his EX Rank Agility. And EX Rank Parameters are defined as

A set of rules for representing the rank of a particular status. They range from A~E. EX is in a league of its own, representing powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless.

Look at Assassin of Shinjuku. His Noble Phantasm allows him to move so fast "It is said that he moves so swiftly that his shadow doesn't even have time to reach the ground." And his Agility is only A+.

Even setting aside how inconsistent and unhelpful parameters are in general, NPs have their own parameters. Two of them, even. Even if his agility was E--- an NP with the premise of "beating someone up very fast" would still make him move that fast.
For Yan Qing specifically, he has D-rank NP parameter, his NP itself has A-rank parameter, but it was also buffed so it actually is EX-rank too. How do you quantify this? How do you make sense of this? In my opinion - you don't. Not just for Yan Qing, but for any Servant in general the parameters don't convey any useful information

On another note, even if we take parameters at face value, the issue with Santa Karna is that he's a comedy character. Him having internally consistent parameters doesn't address it at all.

 

[Wankbreaker]

And then right after, they jump into the actual fight. If Mash and Musashi are so slow that they are considered statues to Dioscuri, it does not make sense for them to be capable of engaging in combat against the Dioscuri alongside Two Giants. They would just get blitzed and everything's over.

No, they escape? lol. Holmes did his last ditch effort and got struck by one of Zeus’s thunderbolts, and Chaldea got saved by a hooded man.- If an amped Musashi could barely react in time,what makes you think that they could normally?

Also, they received nanomachines afterwards, making them amped.

Because there's clear statements and actions of people moving beyond it. I mean Dioscuri's very existence goes against this.

Divine Spirits having to use an authority that has the threat of killing them if used favors my point more so than yours. Authorities were also accounted for in the OP.

That would be the case if it wasn't for his EX Rank Agility. And EX Rank Parameters are defined as

Parameter scaling is out, check Crim’s thread. Either way, Achilles is stated to be the fastest heroic spirit, counting the past and future. His agility rank is A+.

Dromeus Kometes: Comet-Style Running
Rank: A+
Classification: Anti-Personnel (Self) Noble Phantasm
Range: 0
Maximum Number of Targets: 1 person

Dromeus Kometes (Runner’s Comet). A Noble Phantasm of the Constantly Invoked-Type that Achilles activates by getting off from “The Immortal Chariot of Swift Winds and Surging Waves” to stand on his feet. It is something that embodies the legend that he is the swiftest hero among all heroes of all eras. He can run through a vast battlefield in a single breath, and even if there are obstacles on the field, they will not reduce his speed. He must expose his weak point – his Achilles tendon – while running, but there are few Heroic Spirits who can catch hold of him while he is running at this speed.

Couldn’t dodge this, btw.

"Antares Snipe: Shooting at the Celestial Scorpion
Rank A
Type Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm
Range 5~99
Maximum Number of Targets 1 person

Antares Snipe.
The embodiment of the episode in which Chiron, turned into Sagittarius, is always aiming at the celestial scorpion.
The ultimate strike a bowman can reach, piercing the stars.
A meteoric strike that can be launched at the point the True Name is released, and that is fired not from his bow, but from the stars.
Even Achilles, renowned for being a fast runner, couldn’t dodge this Noble Phantasm.
There is the demerit of only being usable once a night, but it won’t miss the target unless the timing is wrong."

Look at Assassin of Shinjuku. His Noble Phantasm allows him to move so fast "It is said that he moves so swiftly that his shadow doesn't even have time to reach the ground." And his Agility is only A+.

Here. Either way, let's not get sidetracked with FTL stuff.

disregarding the fact that this is servantverse, that seems to be a noble phantasm?

If you're talking about the scan from your OP, can you add the scans from before and after, or send the link, because to me, this seems more because of the Range of the ability rather than the speed (Can't really dodge an attack that covers an entire city)

Both the FGO profile and Tsuki R cite the speed. The statement also says Arcueid couldn’t even react to it. It’s one thing if she could react and failed to dodge, but that’s not what happened here.

Because in the next fight, It's said that they're going faster and are fighting at their limits. Even if Saber had to do extra things, it doesn't discredit this scene, where they're clearly going beyond what they did during the warehouse fight.

Saber surpassed her usual limits in that excerpt, that’s the point. She did absolutely everything she could to amp her speed.

This is all during the first appearance of Dioscuri. Unless I'm misremembering, Mash and Musashi didn't receive any nanomachines in Atlantis, so this is them in base.

Pretty sure all of Chaldea’s group got fed nanomachines before fighting Talos. (If you’re talking about something else, link it.)

Also, Musashi expresses doubt that the dioscuri’s speed was really light speed ( the scan is in the OP, but I forgot to add a translation for it)

The first sentence:

I'm not sure if it was truly light speed, but anyway, come on!

Just because he has divinity doesn't mean he automatically gets FTL movement, otherwise you would have Caenis with FTL movement, and she got manhandled by the Dioscuri prior to her Divinity Ascension. Refer to what I replied to Wankbreaker for the comedy effect. From what I remember, all events are considered canon (as much as I disagree with it), so it's fine.

We're getting off topic here, she's not being used to scale anything. She's just an example that a single servan't can't be used to justify a cap, as another servant can be used to raise the cap.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Telomera]

OP snip

Agreed. The FTL calc just doesn't account for perspective imo. Not sure about MHS though, "nearing" the speed of light seems to be pretty clear indication of rel+ unless the raw Japanese has different connotations.

 

[Hypertornado099]

2. Everyone in the verse caps at Rel without a special authority to go higher,though no one else should scale.

Agree with this, neutral about the other because of Breeze's comments

 

[Huesito88]

Agreed. The FTL calc just doesn't account for perspective imo. Not sure about MHS though, "nearing" the speed of light seems to be pretty clear indication of rel+ unless the raw Japanese has different connotations.

If translations are accurate "nearing the speed of light" is defaulted to 75% without anymore context

 

[Wankbreaker]

Agreed. The FTL calc just doesn't account for perspective imo. Not sure about MHS though, "nearing" the speed of light seems to be pretty clear indication of rel+ unless the raw Japanese has different connotations.

I already addressed that one. Saber going full throttle with her mana burst in F/Z allocated for speed only goes “several times” the speed of sound

 

[Wankbreaker]

it’s also just not narratively consistent for everyone in the verse to be some flavor of rel

 

[EJSenpai]

I agree with the thread idk how this got by the mods at the time

 

[KingTempest]

I'm fine with the downgrade. Limiting em to MHS is insane though, I guess like mid rel-rel+ is fine, so option 2

 

[Wankbreaker]

I'm fine with the downgrade. Limiting em to MHS is insane though, I guess like mid rel-rel+ is fine, so option 2

The MHS limit is only for servants and the like.

Having everyone in the entire verse being “relative” in speed would create absolutely huge scaling inconsistencies. Angra Mainyu needed a 100x speed amp to fight saber on equal grounds.

If Nasu/Type-Moon felt like there was a narrative need for Musashi to be double amped in order to react to rel attacks, they probably can’t fight at that speed normally. Just saying.

 

[KingTempest]

The MHS limit is only for servants and the like.

Having everyone in the entire verse being “relative” in speed would create absolutely huge scaling inconsistencies. If Nasu/Type-Moon felt like there was a narrative need for Musashi to be double amped in order to react to rel attacks, they probably can’t fight at that speed normally. Just saying.

Oh, my bad then

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The Type-Moon cabal validated the posting of this as long as I point out that this isn’t exactly directly aligned with Crim’s revamp attempt.

Not going to engange with the thread beyond pointing out that this was in fact not approved by the group that is going to revise the verse, this is just the op going completely rogue and ignoring the people working on the revisions despite everything said, utterly disregarding the agreements of the group because the "cabal" (as the op likes to call it) can't stop her from posting anything at all, simply because the group doesn't have the power to stop from posting in the forum an user that for all regards and purposes is being a bother to the rest of supporters and debates in bad faith. Is thus that the "cabal" has decided to ignore the messy threads the op is going to create and instead use that energy in something actually productive like working on the revisions like a group, because at the end of the day those revisions would just overwrote whatever mess this user has pushed so far, so even though this is is increasing the workload later on by undoing the mess, it's still the option that will be taken.

That is the only thing I'm going to say in this thread.

 

[Wankbreaker]

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1297292740505374920/1376586323237802054/IMG_8871.png?ex=6835dd6b&is=68348beb&hm=0c9c29d504522908a33a89dc61f3e81cf684c19b85e2d5b1502eba8de8e037f3&

https://cdn.**********.com/attachme...db76538cc524c4a951aadcf0a6d8a47d5b8abae1b194&

snippy snip

Now please, don’t talk about stuff that’s irrelevant to the thread at hand in a sad attempt to get it closed.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Not going to engange with the thread beyond pointing out that this was in fact not approved by the group that is going to revise the verse, this is just the op going completely rogue and ignoring the people working on the revisions despite everything said, utterly disregarding the agreements of the group because the "cabal" (as the op likes to call it) can't stop her from posting anything at all, simply because the group doesn't have the power to stop from posting in the forum an user that for all regards and purposes is being a bother to the rest of supporters and debates in bad faith. Is thus that the "cabal" has decided to ignore the messy threads the op is going to create and instead use that energy in something actually productive like working on the revisions like a group, because at the end of the day those revisions would just overwrote whatever mess this user has pushed so far, so even though this is is increasing the workload later on by undoing the mess, it's still the option that will be taken.

That is the only thing I'm going to say in this thread.

It doesn't matter if it was approved by the group or not, since the verse is getting back up either way.

Trying to make this seem invalid or malicious in any way is just wrong, especially since no actual counterarguments/evidence have been shown/stated.

So yeah, this CRT can continue without any problems.

 

[DaReaperMan]

it’s also just not narratively consistent for everyone in the verse to be some flavor of rel

Gonna throw this out there, neither is MHS. In fact, the reason MHS was upgraded out of is because there's like 2 feats in the tier period. Rela at least has SOME proper backing.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Gonna throw this out there, neither is MHS. In fact, the reason MHS was upgraded out of is because there's like 2 feats in the tier period. Rela at least has SOME proper backing.

doesn’t Gil react to lightning speed arrows? And Richard I becomes lightning speed with his skill iirc

Though Richard’s speed is called extremely abnormal and high, so

 

[HammerStrikes219]

doesn’t Gil react to lightning? And Richard I becomes lightning speed iirc

I honestly don’t remember about those two feats tbh.

Might as well double checked since chances are those feats haven’t been looked into at all.

Which would make it worse in retrospect in that case

 

[DaReaperMan]

doesn’t Gil react to lightning? And Richard I becomes lightning speed with his skill iirc

congratulations, you have named the only two feats in the tier.

 

[Wankbreaker]

congratulations, you have named the only two feats in the tier.

lmao

 

[HammerStrikes219]

congratulations, you have named the only two feats in the tier.

What happens when the verse has so many feats, but ain’t sure which ones are perfect valid and which ones ain’t.

 

[Huesito88]

What happens when the verse has so many feats, but ain’t sure which ones are perfect valid and which ones ain’t.

Vibe scaling when?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Honestly, can we just list the calcs and have all of them reevaluated by actual calc members?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Honestly, can we just list the calcs and have all of them reevaluated by actual calc members?

There's not many, in fact MHS has literally zero.