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CSM: High Tiers Debunk [Staff Votes Needed]

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Unless you have an actual reasoning why Yoru's bang is not equal or superior to Makima's bang which has been heavily implied to be gundevils power, other than "but x character dodged it" or some headcanons I don't see why we should take this seriously.


Makima could only use her bang on Pochita when he was weakened, mid-air and off-guard. Ever thought why Makima needed those spesific circumstances to use her bang? Because SHE KNEW DAMN WELL NORMALLY POCHITA COULD EASILY BLOCK OR DODGE IT. Bang was never meant to be that fast in CSM verse. If Fake can dodge or block it it's a fakesaw upscale if all high tiers scales to it then so be it lol.
 
Thats assuming Yoru’s bang is equal to Makima’s bang, which there isnt any proof of. Aditionally fear scaling can’t be applied due to being a special ability.
There’s also proof of how Yoru’s bang =/= Makima’s bang shown consistently in the recent chapters. Since Denji scales to fakesawman who dodged it.
https://ibb.co/album/TM1RfH
Wrong. As we all know, "Bang" varies greatly depend on the user, they could blow a small hole through their hand, or straight up blow large holes through buildings. The speed feat was calced from Makima attacking Pochita, then Part 2 Pochita scales to it because Yoru attacked him and he deflected it. Both times it was aimed at Pochita, a super strong opponent unlike just some "looking strong Chainsaw person".

And what do you mean by fear scaling can't be applied? What aspect of fear scaling are we using here? Yoru's bang should just be outright superior to Makima's bang due to it being from 28% Gun Devil being sacrificed plus a layer of amp from Yoru's own ability, there are more evidence AGAINST it being weaker than the opposite, if anything Yoru should just outright gain an "at least" rating rather than just scaling to Makima's finger gun.
 
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which there isnt any proof of
"Bang" is confirmed to be an ability originating from the Gun Devil via Yoru. The version Makima used was granted after she killed 20% of the Gun Devil, while Yoru's came from killing 28%. This just means that Yoru’s version would be even more powerful and faster.
There’s also proof of how Yoru’s bang =/= Makima’s bang shown consistently in the recent chapters. Since Denji scales to fakesawman who dodged it.
https://ibb.co/album/TM1RfH
This doesn't prove anything. None of the characters in your scans are speed capped anywhere, they could all be MHS+, especially considering Denji's immense fear boost. All this means for God Tiers is that they can massively upscale from MHS+ due to being vastly superior to these characters. The best you can do here is call these feats outliers based on scaling, which is also a logical stance. But the thing is, both interpretations are valid.
 
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That didn't link, and Makima defeated GD a while back before the 20% one showed up didn't she? She could have gotten the power through there
 
Only offensive Telekinesis-like power Makima has is her crushing ritual which is obv a devil contract and required a sacrifice for every use.

The Control Devil doesn't have an innate bullet ability, Makima's and Yoru's bangs acts identically and theres no other way to explain why would Makima have a finger gun. It's very blatantly implied and Fujimoto is not the type that explains everything. He sees it as an insult to audience's intelligence but he should start doing that.


The image didn't show up but if you posted Katana arc panel where she creates holes through people's bodies..
  • Japan already had unknown part of Gundevil who was most likely under Makima's control especially considering all her privileges. (PM literally made a contract with her using the life of every japanese citizen) She's Japan's real Nuke.
  • Makima could do it with fists just like he did with Graveyardchita

I honestly don't think anyone actually believes Makima got a FINGER GUN in any other way.
 
This is the image
https://ibb.co/N6sgm0KD
As you can see, Makima already was able to use telekinesis and inflict damage by projecting an invisible force to targets she points at with her index finger before defeating Gun, and it’s practically identical even if she doesn't say bang.
 
That didn't link, and Makima defeated GD a while back before the 20% one showed up didn't she? She could have gotten the power through there
Yeah, you might have to prove that
 
This is the image
https://ibb.co/N6sgm0KD
As you can see, Makima already was able to use telekinesis and inflict damage by projecting an invisible force to targets she points at with her index finger before defeating Gun, and it’s practically identical even if she doesn't say bang.
Darkness has a forcefield around so Makima can't even target him with projectile + doesn't have AP to do anything. And that is obv an internal attack.
4a16d5ef4d39d860b94a582287e1fe2eabf256c7e62fc72161b7405929a94d36.jpg
 
This is the image
https://ibb.co/N6sgm0KD
As you can see, Makima already was able to use telekinesis and inflict damage by projecting an invisible force to targets she points at with her index finger before defeating Gun, and it’s practically identical even if she doesn't say bang.
This has been discussed in-depth in numerous threads. Short of it is that this ability is not Bang— she she does not say "bang", which she does for every instance of the ability even when she can't be heard; and it also doesn't strike Darkness like an invisible bullet, it just causes internal bleeding.

It's a ranged attack that caused Darkness Devil to spew blood, similar to how both Makima and Darkness have caused internal bleeding in people's brains at range through staring and pointing. We currently index it as biological manipulation.
 
Makima could only use her bang on Pochita when he was weakened, mid-air and off-guard. Ever thought why Makima needed those spesific circumstances to use her bang? Because SHE KNEW DAMN WELL NORMALLY POCHITA COULD EASILY BLOCK OR DODGE IT. Bang was never meant to be that fast in CSM verse. If Fake can dodge or block it it's a fakesaw upscale if all high tiers scales to it then so be it lol.
He wasnt weakened yet, that came some chapters after that. He didnt even block it with his arms even thought he could have if he was fast enough.
 
Character who cannot fly may have difficulty maintaining their balance or blocking an attack when being launched into space at mach gazillion speeds methinks.


Plus he was injured and THERE WAS A LITERAL SPEAR STUCK IN HIS BODY😭
 
This has been discussed in-depth in numerous threads. Short of it is that this ability is not Bang— she she does not say "bang", which she does for every instance of the ability even when she can't be heard; and it also doesn't strike Darkness like an invisible bullet, it just causes internal bleeding.

It's a ranged attack that caused Darkness Devil to spew blood, similar to how both Makima and Darkness have caused internal bleeding in people's brains at range through staring and pointing. We currently index it as biological manipulation.
Darkness has a forcefield around so Makima can't even target him with projectile + doesn't have AP to do anything. And that is obv an internal attack.
4a16d5ef4d39d860b94a582287e1fe2eabf256c7e62fc72161b7405929a94d36.jpg
Darkness has been shown to use telekinetic attacks which are practically just like bang. Which supports the idea that bang may just originate from telekinesis. Im just saying that it isn't 100% confirmed that Makima got the bang from defeating Gun.

Still tho you still have to prove that Makima got bang due to defeating Gun. So lets wait for Gunshy to explain it.
 
This doesn't resemble Bang in the slightest, beyond being an unseen force. Darkness speaks, and suddenly Galgalli explodes from from the inside in multiple places. How is that "practically just like" a finger-gun firing an invisible bullet?

Im just saying that it isn't 100% confirmed that Makima got the bang from defeating Gun.
Chainsaw Man despises explicit confirmation, but it does beat us over the head with implication.

Makima is a character who controls devils and people she sees herself as superior to, using their powers at will. She uses this most explicitly with Angel's power, being able to use it without even having him present. Makima is only ever seen seen using "Bang", a powerful finger-gun attack, after defeating 20% of the Gun Devil.

Then in Part 2, Yoru turns at least 28% of the Gun Devil into her weapon, using its powers as her own. Upon doing this, she can use a finger-gun attack that fires an invisible bullet when she says "Bang".

It's extremely obvious they're both the Gun Devil's power, Yoru's is just stronger because she used more of the Gun Devil and her weaponification enhances what she transmutes with her guilt.

It's probably not. It's entirely offscreen, and more likely that she just punched holes through the yakuza. Makima was also usually more destructive with Bang, except for when she shot herself.
 
Good luck with the exam
It was pretty good 😀 Thanks!

Alright, since Zab already addressed it, I'm going to explain it in a way everyone can understand.

I've already gone over how Yoru possesses the power of the gun, its power level and how it works. See here:
A weapon’s strength created by Yoru or Asa is directly based on how guilty they feel about turning someone into a weapon. Asa, due to her deeper emotional ties and guilt, has created stronger weapons than Yoru. However, in this case, Yoru forged a weapon out of 28% of her child, the Gun Devil, which formed a gauntlet on her right arm. This gauntlet was described as more fearsome than any of Asa’s weapons.
Now I'll explain how Makima obtains the Gun Devil's ability.
Yoru for sure got her powers from gun, but what is the exact evidence that Makima did too?
Let’s go over the basics. As the Control Devil, Makima has shown the ability to control any life-form she perceives as lesser than herself. This control is not limited to humans, it extends to devils, fiends, and animals alike. After taking control, she can also use the abilities of those under her influence, whether they are alive or deceased, even if the abilities originate from devils they had contracts with.

Makima’s profile also notes that her powers are passive and extend to everyone she meets, and even to those she controls posthumously. This suggests that she may possess the powers of devils she has never directly encountered or controlled. This is supported by her eventual control of the Zombie Devil, which she only discovered after Denji had killed it, yet it later appears among her controlled minions.

Now, with that in mind, we also know that when facing opponents she cannot or chooses not to immediately control, she will engage them in battle until she proves herself superior to them.

From this we can conclude:
  • Makima’s control is passive.
  • When she is uncertain whether she is superior to her opponent, she will engage them in combat.
  • Once she takes control of a devil, she can use that devil’s abilities as her own, even after their death.
Now, after Makima defeated the Gun Devil in their 12 second showdown, according to her plan, she took control of it and forced it into Aki’s corpse, compelling it to fight Denji. The key point here is that Makima clearly took control of the Gun Devil, meaning she gained access to its abilities.

We also know that Makima has the ability to control anything, which allowed her to cultivate the Gun Devil’s power as her own, even altering its size and potency.

With all these context clues and implications, as Zabzab said Chainsaw Man rarely ever confirms things outright. But in this case, the clues are clear and straightforward.
 
Makima has only been shown using someone else's ability in one case, and that is after summoning them, so it isn’t that clear.

But most importantly I think that, even if it's offscreen, we shouldn't overlook how Makima appears to use bang way earlier in the train shooting. The perfect circle it leaves is a clear bang trait and that makes it visibly different to punching through them, in addition to this the clothes around her hands are too clean to have just gone through someone.

At this point i'd just wait for staff to come.
 
Makima has only been shown using someone else's ability in one case, and that is after summoning them, so it isn’t that clear.
This is blatantly untrue, as you would know if you had clicked on any of the scans above. Her abilities are not limited to summoning, they are simply used for more direct control via her chains. This is also directly linked in the Mind Manipulation section of her profile.
After taking control, she can also use the abilities of those under her influence, whether they are alive or deceased, even if the abilities originate from devils they had contracts with.
But most importantly I think that, even if it's offscreen, we shouldn't overlook how Makima appears to use bang way earlier in the train shooting. The perfect circle it leaves is a clear bang trait and that makes it visibly different to punching through them, in addition to this the clothes around her hands are too clean to have just gone through someone.
She could have simply wiped off the blood, especially considering she was shot in the head twice and was drenched in blood even after healing. Yet by the time help arrived, only her clothes were soaked in blood. This is particularly obvious given that she outright lied and claimed she hadn’t been shot, no duh she would have cleaned it off. This could also be a completely separate ability and not Bang. It doesn't have to involve her punching either, especially given the evidence presented, which places us in a situation where everything suggests that this is not Bang. Considering that her signature move removes torsos entirely against targets like Power, there's no reason for Makima to leave a cylindrical hole in her opponents.
At this point i'd just wait for staff to come.
The mods rely on knowledgeable members of the verse to provide context and help them make informed decisions. It's better that we come to a conclusion based on the facts we have, rather than depend on someone who has no understanding of the verse (this sounds wrong, not you, the staff)

I'm speaking on behalf of everyone here when I say this is very important, especially since the majority disagrees with the entire OP, except for one section, which is also incorrect.
 
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Ehh, not the best argument considering she can also do this.
I figured. So the prior argument still holds weight along with the new arg I added.
She could have simply wiped off the blood, especially considering she was shot in the head twice and was drenched in blood even after healing. Yet by the time help arrived, only her clothes were soaked in blood. This is particularly obvious given that she outright lied and claimed she hadn’t been shot, no duh she would have cleaned it off.
 
Bump (Should atleast get the subrel accepted)
 
Bump (Should atleast get the subrel accepted)
Honestly, I myself am starting to doubt that the bullet only scales to Aging’s perception speed. By the time he acknowledged the bullet, he had absolutely no reaction to it, he wasn’t even surprised despite how close the bullet was to him. He seemed completely unamused and even shocked that Yoru would think it could harm him, brushing it off as a trivial disturbance to his thoughts.

Such a reaction can only be justified if he is massively faster than the bullet in question. It’s one thing for an attack to be so fast that your only option is to rely on your thinking speed to counter attack. But it’s an entirely different scenario when you’re completely unbothered, not caught off guard at all and show no concern, the only way that makes sense is if he was perceiving the bullet while being significantly faster than it.

If most of the verse supporters agree with this interpretation, along with others observing and once staff have weighed in on the situation, this thread can probably be closed, especially since everything in the OP has been disagreed upon by the majority.
 
So, disclaimer that I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, but after reading through the thread, my general thoughts are:

The Makima feat doesn't seem to be done purely on reaction, so I agree it probably shouldn't be used to scale her Reaction Speed.

The Aging feat seems like a clear Reaction Speed feat to me, but definitely not a general Combat Speed feat.
I'd normally aim for Perception Speed for simply turning one's head or eyes, naming it a relatively negligible movement, but given the context provided I don't think that's likely the intention here.

Disagree with the scaling proposals, largely for the reasons GunshyFever and TheRustyOne pointed out.
 
So, disclaimer that I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, but after reading through the thread, my general thoughts are:

The Makima feat doesn't seem to be done purely on reaction, so I agree it probably shouldn't be used to scale her Reaction Speed.

The Aging feat seems like a clear Reaction Speed feat to me, but definitely not a general Combat Speed feat.
I'd normally aim for Perception Speed for simply turning one's head or eyes, naming it a relatively negligible movement, but given the context provided I don't think that's likely the intention here.

Disagree with the scaling proposals, largely for the reasons GunshyFever and TheRustyOne pointed out.
Appreciate you for turning up.
 
Alright, if Gunshy wants to get MHS+ back with different arguments he can do it on a different thread since none of those are used in the pages.
How many staff votes do I need here?
 
Alright, if Gunshy wants to get MHS+ back with different arguments he can do it on a different thread since none of those are used in the pages.
How many staff votes do I need here?
It's called a fallback calculation. You can't just remove a calc and leave nothing on the profile, there must be a fallback value that the character can scale back from. Even so, I'm proposing that the bullet's raw speed could narratively scale to Aging's combat speed, based on the full context of the situation.

I also mentioned earlier in this thread that there's a major speed CRT in the works, which already addresses most of the speed-related issues. I wouldn’t need to worry about pushing anything forward, knowing it will be handled in a more comprehensive and well thought out CRT. This is just accelerating things more than expected.

Of course, there’s a scaling conundrum regarding MHS+, with high-tier characters now scaling to that value, which creates an odd upscaling gap. That further justifies Sub-Rel being a distinct tier among the God-tiers of the verse.

Naturally, that scaling is on hold until the movie is out, so we can then focus on any feats that occur pre-Aging Devil Arc.
 
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