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Goku's Ultra Instinct Perception Speed Multipliers

MichaelCalistro

MichaelCalistro

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Ladies and gentlemen, I had an ongoing versus thread and we are in a serious traffic trying to discuss how does Goku's Ultra Instinct perception speed works which even happened in my previous versus thread as well. Goku in the manga was shown to using Ultra Instinct technique conjuring with his every forms without transforming into Ultra Instinct transformation itself, going off by what is Whis/Vegeta/Goku is saying, it sounded akin to Goku having Ultra Instinct's transformation speed multiplied in everyone of his forms as perception speed multiplier every time he uses the Ultra Instinct technique itself including the transformation as well. For example, whatever multiplier Goku gets in Ultra Instinct transformation every time he transforms from his base form, we can use that multiplier as his perception speed multiplier in everyone of his forms for perception speed increase multiplier.

Second Proposal: If we can't use UI x Forms multiplier for Goku's perception speed due to no limits fallacies/inconsistences, then I suggest the second option of Goku's forms multiply by itself for his perception speed increase since his Ultra Instinct's accuracies increases liner with his forms such as B X B, SS X SS, SS2 X SS2, SS3 X SS3, SSG X SSG, SSB X SSB, and UI X UI instead.

Third Proposal: Let's further lowball the suggestion, instead of using form x form multiplier for Goku's perception speed increase when using Ultra Instinct technique, we will increase Goku's perception speed by x2 from the previous value everytime he increases his transformations. For example, base Goku can keep up with Super Saiyan Vegeta with Ultra Instinct technique when avoiding Granolah's ambush, which means his perception speed in base is a x50 increase and with the x50 value, we shall multiply that by x2 everytime Goku transforms such as SS, SS2, SS3, SSG, SSB, and UI.

Fourth Proposal: Similarly to my third proposal which is an extreme lowball by the way, this this case we will be providing x50 multiplier from the previous value instead of just x2 for everytime Goku increases his transformations for Goku's perception speed increase instead.
 
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It doesn't work like that, no.

It doesn't multiply his UI perception speed and his base speed together.
 
MrTayman616 said:
It doesn't work like that, no.

It doesn't multiply his UI perception speed and his base speed together.
Click to expand...
Then how does it work? The entire point of Whis's training was that Goku can use Ultra Instinct technique without having to transform into the transformation itself to do so, if that doesn't correspond to Goku's perception speed increase to Ultra Instinct's multiplier in each of his forms including Ultra Instinct transformation itself, then what it does then?
 
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As said on the VS thread where this was bought up, I disagree with Base Goku having reactions on the level of MUI. As it becomes more accurate the more he transforms (image 4 in OP), and at base he cannot evade some attacks from Granolah.

But I agree that his Instinctive Reaction speed should be noticeable above his normal reaction speed, as he is capable of evade Granolah attacks in base that Vegeta was struggling to in SSJ (photo 2 in OP, here), only failing to dodge some attacks because he hasn't mastered UI correctly yet.
 
JustANormalPerson01 said:
As said on the VS thread where this was bought up, I disagree with Base Goku having reactions on the level of MUI. As it becomes more accurate the more he transforms (image 4 in OP), and at base he cannot evade some attacks from Granolah.

But I agree that his Instinctive Reaction speed should be noticeable above his normal reaction speed, as he is capable of evade Granolah attacks in base similarly to how Vegeta did in SSJ (photo 2 in OP, here), only failing to dodge some attacks because he hasn't mastered UI correctly yet
Click to expand...
Then my suggestion is that we give Goku additional multipliers for his perception speeds of each of his forms that he is in every time he uses the Ultra Instinct technique such Base x Base multiplier or Super Saiyan x Super Saiyan multiplier, etc. I guess this would make more sense.
 
I think it is way more easy to just mention it on the instinctive reaction ability, as it is way more convenient than adding "Far Higher with Instinctive Reactions" in every key. Rewording its justification to something like:

Click to expand...
But that is a preference to make the profile look less saturated with a lot of "higher/far higher". I don't mind if it is noted on speed instead
 
JustANormalPerson01 said:
I think it is way more easy to just mention it on the instinctive reaction ability, as it is way more convenient than adding "Far Higher with Instinctive Reactions" in every key. Rewording its justification to something like:


But that is a preference to make the profile look less saturated with a lot of "higher/far higher". I don't mind if it is noted on speed instead
Click to expand...
The multiplier still needs to be mention so that everyone can understand how much perception speed increase Goku gets in each of his forms just like with Mori.
 
JustANormalPerson01 said:
I don't know how Mori profile mentions it. But I guess you can just copy that format
Click to expand...
 
In Mori's case, it was simply his maxed out Jeabongchim's multiplier added for his perception speed only for his Miracle's key. In Goku's case, we will have to give him additional multipliers in each of his forms since his Ultra Instinct's perception speed increases linearly with his forms's speeds, so B X B, SS X SS, SS2 X SS2, SS3 X SS3, SSG X SSG, SSB X SSB, and UI X UI, that's how I am seeing it.
 
following.

Also, you see how the tables turned for Goku vs Wonder Woman. 2020 was quite an era.
 
MadeByZiggy said:
following.

Also, you see how the tables turned for Goku vs Wonder Woman. 2020 was quite an era.
Click to expand...
If this content revision thread makes a pass somehow or someway, that is about to change in every Goku's threads I think, God forbids whatever comes next.
 
To an extent, each time he went into an UI form and it wears off, he does get a zenkai that drastically buffs his power and speed for sure, but I disagree with it being something like a base form surpassing MUI form as that causes are lot of weirdness.
 
Okay so after reading through the scans you've provided, I have a problem with the proposal.

Going off of what you're proposing: the problem I have is that while it's true Goku can access Ultra Instinct in his base form, it's not as potent as it would be in his transformation (hence why Vegeta notes that Goku's Ultra Instinct got sharper when he used it in conjunction with Super Saiyan God). I don't think it's multiplying his perception speed per say with every transformation, but more like he taps further into Ultra Instinct the further he goes with his transformations until he's in Ultra Instinct entirely.

So based off those reasons, I disagree with the CRT.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
To an extent, each time he went into an UI form and it wears off, he does get a zenkai that drastically buffs his power and speed for sure, but I disagree with it being something like a base form surpassing MUI form as that causes are lot of weirdness.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's more like the degree that which Goku can tap into Ultra Instinct gets better the higher he goes with his Super Saiyan forms if that makes sense. If Goku could use the full capabilities of Ultra Instinct in just his base form, then he wouldn't need to transform and Whis wouldn't have instructed him to be like him and be in UI 24/7.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
To an extent, each time he went into an UI form and it wears off, he does get a zenkai that drastically buffs his power and speed for sure, but I disagree with it being something like a base form surpassing MUI form as that causes are lot of weirdness.
Click to expand...
Which is why I proposed with the second method, B X B, SS X SS, SS2 X SS2, SS3 X SS3, SSG X SSG, SSB X SSB, and UI X UI multipliers for his perception speeds instead since the original proposal looks too crazy.
 
i don't really understand the logic here, why using "forms multiply by itself" withit not having any statement.
like, i'm ok with UI technique having 50× multiplier because it is shown to be superior than 50× multiplier (SSJ) but "forms multiply by itself" sound pretty baseless to me.
 
MadeByZiggy said:
following.

Also, you see how the tables turned for Goku vs Wonder Woman. 2020 was quite an era.
Click to expand...
For the stats:
Based on current ratings the speeds are as follows:

Goku (Granolah Arc):

Base: 14,111,455,550,000c (14.1 Trillion c)

Super Saiyan: 705,572,777,500,000c (705.57 Trillion c)

Super Saiyan 2: 1,411,145,555,000,000c (1.41 Quadrillion c)

Super Saiyan 3/Super Saiyan God: 5,644,582,220,000,000c (5.64 Quadrillion c)

Super Saiyan Blue/Ultra Instinct: 282,229,111,000,000,000c (282.2 Quadrillion c)



Wonder Woman: 52 Quintillion c

184.247 times speed gap between Ultra Instinct and Wonder Woman

9,212.37 times speed gap between her and God form

36,849.49 times speed gap between her and Super Saiyan 2

73,698.988 times speed gap between her and Super Saiyan

3,684,949.42 times speed gap between her and base Goku

So he'd need Ultra Instinct or Blue to fight at all and even then is 180X slower. One way or the other this is a steep climb for Goku.

For what is actually going on here though, this thread seems to be about an ability to be added to Goku, since that's clearly levels of instinctive action accessible without transforming.
 
M2u12 said:
i don't really understand the logic here, why using "forms multiply by itself" withit not having any statement.
like, i'm ok with UI technique having 50× multiplier because it is shown to be superior than 50× multiplier (SSJ) but "forms multiply by itself" sound pretty baseless to me.
Click to expand...
Because the Ultra Instinct's perception speed multiplier isn't fixed to 50x value.

"I see, it becomes more accurate when used conjunction with a Super Saiyan form."

Vegeta implied that Ultra Instinct's perception speed increases alongside Goku's transformations, so therefore not everyone of Goku's transformations will be getting the same 50x perception speed increases.
 
MichaelCalistro said:
Because the Ultra Instinct's perception speed multiplier isn't fixed to 50x value.

"I see, it becomes more accurate when used conjunction with a Super Saiyan form."

Vegeta implied that Ultra Instinct's perception speed increases alongside Goku's transformations, so therefore not everyone of Goku's transformations will be getting the same 50x perception speed increases.
Click to expand...
i'm not saying that UI technique cap as 50× multiplier.

And "speed increases alongside Goku's transformations" it don't mean that UI technique will have same multiplier at the transformations he using at that time.
 
M2u12 said:
i'm not saying that UI technique cap as 50× multiplier.

And "speed increases alongside Goku's transformations" it don't mean that UI technique will have same multiplier at the transformations he using.
Click to expand...
So I have a third proposal! If Base Goku can keep up with Super Saiyan Vegeta implying that Ultra Instinct is a 50x multiplier for perception speed in his base, we can give Goku a x2 increase for his perception speed everytime he increases his transformations! For example 50x multipler for base, 100x multiplier for Super Saiyan, and 200x for Super Saiyan 2, etc. How does this sound?
 
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What does everyone thinks about my third proposal for this thread? It's an extreme lowball, but it's still a much safer bet from the previous two proposals that I did.
 
MichaelCalistro said:
So I have a third proposal! If Base Goku can keep up with Super Saiyan Vegeta implying that Ultra Instinct is a 50x multiplier for perception speed in his base, we can give Goku a x2 increase for his perception speed everytime he increases his transformations! For example 50x multipler for base, 100x multiplier for Super Saiyan, and 200x for Super Saiyan 2, etc. How does this sound?
Click to expand...
Why not straightup using 50x multiplier for every transformation? Like, we have a good evidence that UI technique is superior than 50× multiplier, even if every transformation not having the same 50x multiplier from UI technique, but the multiplier from UI technique used in various transformations should not be Inferior than 50×?
 
M2u12 said:
Why not straightup using 50x multiplier for every transformation? Like, we have a good evidence that UI technique is superior than 50× multiplier, even if not every transformation is having the same 50x multiplier from UI technique, but the multiplier from UI technique used in various transformations should not be Inferior than 50× multiplier?
Click to expand...
You mean instead of 2x increase from previous value such as 50, 100, 200, etc. you are suggesting 50x increase from previous value instead such as 50, 2,500, 125,000, etc. for Goku's perception speed increase? I like this idea more!
 
Okay everyone, I have put up a fourth proposal since my third proposal was an extreme lowball. What does everyone also thinks about the fourth proposal?
 
Is it actually a boost to reaction speed or just a really good instinctive reaction ability? Typically instinctive reaction is treated as its own thing rather than used to grant huge speed buffs.

If it's a reaction speed boost, we would likely be looking at X50 for reactions in base, followed by those reactions always being 50X the speed of the form.
 
MichaelCalistro said:
You mean instead of 2x increase from previous value such as 50, 100, 200, etc. you are suggesting 50x increase from previous value instead such as 50, 2,500, 125,000, etc. for Goku's perception speed increase? I like this idea more!
Click to expand...
basically yeah, but i'm not fully agree that UI technique having 50× multiplier because it can be argued that it is a supernatural technique that allows you to fight opponent who are more than 1000 times faster than you while you speed is not increasing at all.

So i will just wait for db supporter to comment on this.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Is it actually a boost to reaction speed or just a really good instinctive reaction ability? Typically instinctive reaction is treated as its own thing rather than used to grant huge speed buffs.

If it's a reaction speed boost, we would likely be looking at X50 for reactions in base, followed by those reactions always being 50X the speed of the form.
Click to expand...
It's for Goku's perception/reaction speed increases, his combat/flight speed remains unaffected by this thread.
 
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MichaelCalistro said:
It's for Goku's perception/reaction speed, his combat/flight speed remains unaffected by this thread.
Click to expand...
I know, but as I said above, instinctive reaction is usually treated as its own thing rather than boosting reaction speed.

This seems to me to be one of two things. Factually, we know that Goku was better at reacting to things than someone 50 times faster. So we have our number.

If it's instinctive reaction independent of anything else, he can react/defend against things 50 times faster than himself at any given time (provided he gets the chance, since his ability is boosted instincts, not precognition) via these instinctive abilities.

If it's a reactions boost, it's likely that it makes his reactions fifty times faster than his actual speed at all times.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
I know, but as I said above, instinctive reaction is usually treated as its own thing rather than boosting reaction speed.

This seems to me to be one of two things. Factually, we know that Goku was better at reacting to things than someone 50 times faster. So we have our number.

If it's instinctive reaction independent of anything else, he can react/defend against things 50 times faster than himself at any given time (provided he gets the chance, since his ability is boosted instincts, not precognition) via these instinctive abilities.

If it's a reactions boost, it's likely that it makes his reactions fifty times faster than his actual speed at all times.
Click to expand...
I do get what you are saying, but the Ultra Instinct technique doesn't just cap x50 multiplier, the technique gets more accurate as Goku uses it with his transformations as stated by both Vegeta and Goku during their confrontation with Granolah, in other words, the multiplier increases as well. To what extent is the big question here.
 
MichaelCalistro said:
I do get what you are saying, but the Ultra Instinct technique doesn't just cap x50 multiplier, the technique gets more accurate as Goku uses it with his transformations as stated by both Vegeta and Goku during their confrontation with Granolah, in other words, the multiplier increases as well. To what extent is the big question here.
Click to expand...
Couldn't that be a result of his actual speed increasing? Regardless, with no concrete numbers it's very hard to go beyond the X50. I'm also pretty sure that it'll be treated as its own thing rather than a reactions buff.
 
I mean, don't the core of UI technique is you using instinct to move you body on it own by not using you thought?

By this description we see that UI technique is not increasing anything here, but it somehow make the user reacting to things than someone 50× faster struggle with, so i think it not a conventional multiplier since it not increasing anything but it make you react better than someone who have 50× multiplier.

So while it may not be a conventional 50× amp, but I can see it be a unconventional 50× amp.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Couldn't that be a result of his actual speed increasing? Regardless, with no concrete numbers it's very hard to go beyond the X50. I'm also pretty sure that it'll be treated as its own thing rather than a reactions buff.
Click to expand...
I don't think they were talking about Goku's actual speed increasing, they were referring to the technique itself. That's why I made a few proposals on this to see where it fits more accurately.
 
MichaelCalistro said:
I don't think they were talking about Goku's actual speed increasing, they were referring to the technique itself. That's why I made a few proposals on this to see where it fits more accurately.
Click to expand...
Given how similar abilities are usually treated here, it'll most likely be listed as an ability, Instinctive Reaction, which allows defense against things 50 times faster than himself, provided he is in a position to absorb the information. Basically, it makes him pick up on information more readily, such as minor twitches that one would normally miss.

In fairness, if someone can react to things faster than themself, that person then boosting all their speed stats by another 50 times is bound to result in those reactions becoming better as well, so it becoming better with Super Saiyan isn't that surprising.

If we go by the universal power level system where the reactions get better proportionate to some additional boost on top of the speed boost, we'd either have to make an assumption that the 50X boost is further multiplied by either the same amount as the speed on top of the speed boost (which would result in Ultra Instinct/Blue having reactions one million times faster than its own movements), or by some other number, or we'd have to call it an undetermined number. And this seems to all be extrapolated from Goku reacting better than someone 50 times faster than him, and a very strange thing to attach to an ability which is clearly meant to be a hyper-reactive state where one perceives things subconsciously and reacts to them.
 
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  1. Goku and Vegeta only struggled with Granolah's blasts in their normal forms and only because of Granolah's "deadly" accuracy.
  2. SS Vegeta did not struggle with Granolah's blasts, nor could you reasonably determine he did based solely on a single facial expression in an action panel.
  3. Using Ultra Instinct, Goku's body evades incoming attacks before they even register in his brain.
The Ultra Instinct technique does not suddenly multiply Goku's reaction speed by fifty-plus-times, the technique simply allows Goku an instinctive degree of Analytical Prediction and then preemptively defends against incoming attacks—i.e., Aim Dodging.
 
When Vegeta became SSJ blasts were not stopped from his point of view, despite being 50x faster than what he was in his base form. Meaning they should be somewhat comparable

To put it in comparison, a 50x speed difference is like 2cm/s, or 0.02m/s is to 1m/s.

I think that Goku doing as well as SSJ Vegeta –until his Instinct Reactions failed–, who must be 50x faster than himself, in base, should be enough to warrant proof that Goku's IR being capable of predicting and letting him evade attacks 50x faster than himself.

And, yeah, I agree Goku's reactions should not increase, because he is not reacting. That's the whole point of Ultra Instinct
 
Nullflowerblush said:

  1. Goku and Vegeta only struggled with Granolah's blasts in their normal forms and only because of Granolah's "deadly" accuracy.
  2. SS Vegeta did not struggle with Granolah's blasts, nor could you reasonably determine he did based solely on a single facial expression in an action panel.
  3. Using Ultra Instinct, Goku's body evades incoming attacks before they even register in his brain.
The Ultra Instinct technique does not suddenly multiply Goku's reaction speed by fifty-plus-times, the technique simply allows Goku an instinctive degree of Analytical Prediction and then preemptively defends against incoming attacks—i.e., Aim Dodging.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
So, keep this as an ability, but maybe make some note somewhere about how good that ability is?
 
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