Digiverse is a total scam.

[SweetDao]

Poor IDCF and TW.

Tensura maybe, Celestial Foundations nah, I'll die on that hill. The wank was too much.

Anyways, it is a major part of Ninjago and is a universe, so don’t see what’s wrong with Low 2-C. Downplay all you want, my stance is the same.

We can wait staff if you wish, but that will probably just be the same. Unless you want to change the standard regarding universe-sized realm, that would be complicated to get Low 2-C here.

 

[AigerTheKing]

You mean entering it? They get digitized into the game/program.

Wu, Acronix and Krux could enter the Realm without digitizing themselves

 

[SweetDao]

Wu, Acronix and Krux could enter the Realm without digitizing themselves

Replaying events of earlier episodes, I'd say. The scenarist surely not caring about "space and time". If anything, that's contradictory with what was stated in the episode itself.

Cyrus: A chance to enter remotely. By the time we figure out where Lloyd is, it'll be too late to stop the Overlord from draining his Golden Power.

Nya: And escaping the Digiverse?

Cyrus: Exactly. But if we digitize the ninja and Techno Blades using my experimental technology, you could fight him on his own turf inside the Digiverse.

Jay: What do you mean inside the Digiverse?

Cole: Ugh, weren't you listening? He's going to put us into the video game.

Jay: I know, heh, I just wanted to hear it again!

P.I.X.A.L.: But Mr. Borg, if anything were to happen to them inside the program—

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Monika, with the sole reason of the game taking largely 95%+ of the VN lifespan, would just be reality equalization.

This is not the reason. It's because it's stated to be as real as the Player's universe, putting it on the same level of existence as the real universe.

 

[SweetDao]

This is not the reason. It's because it's stated to be as real as the Player's universe.

I know, I'm just saying that, from my perspective, the fact alone that the VN focuses 95% of the time inside the virtual world, would be enough for equalization.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Replaying events of earlier episodes, I'd say. The scenarist surely not caring about "space and time". If anything, that's contradictory with what was stated in the episode itself.

Nobody but the Ninjas ever had to digitize themselves to enter the Realm. Even Overlord could do it

 

[SweetDao]

Nobody but the Ninjas ever had to digitize themselves to enter the Realm. Even Overlord could do it

You mean even the Overlord had to digitize himself? I'm sorry, I'm confused about the phrasing.

Regardless, the Digital Overlord is nothing more than a virus within the Digiverse as stated here:

The Overlord was the arch-enemy of the First Spinjitzu Master and the source of all evil in the world. Also known as the Dark Lord, the Overlord was consigned to Dark Island after the First Spinjitzu Master split the land in half.

Existing as a spirit, the incredibly powerful Overlord plotted to return to the human plane of existence, using Garmadon and the Stone Army as his pawns. He is a skilled manipulator who has directed events from behind the scenes for centuries. His original form was a dragon.

Although the Overlord was defeated by Lloyd in the final battle, he was not destroyed. He survived as a computer virus in Cyrus Borg’s Digiverse and was able to take over the whole city, thanks to Borg’s technology being everywhere. But the now Digital Overlord was not satisfied. He was trapped. To escape the Digiverse he needed Lloyd’s Golden Power.

The Ninja were able to reboot the Digiverse, but it was too late: the Overlord had already taken physical form. He sent his Nindroids on a space mission to retrieve the Mega Weapon, the remainder of the four Golden Weapons, to become the prophesized Golden Master. He was finally destroyed by Zane.

Also, I stumbled upon some stuff about Nya digitizing people in a series called Ninjago: Decoded, mind explaining it too? Seems like there is an episode about the Digiverse.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Using Prime Empire as an exemple in the OP is also bad, because the embodiment of the game itself was able to walk in the Real World and interact with people just fine while also keeping his abilities

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Using Prime Empire as an exemple in the OP is also bad, because the embodiment of the game itself was able to walk in the Real World and interact with people just fine while also keeping his abilities

Can you please stop sidetracking the thread?

We have already gone over this.

 

[AigerTheKing]

You mean even the Overlord had to digitize himself? I'm sorry, I'm confused about the phrasing.

No, he did not. Lloyd blew up his physical body, and his spirit form went inside the Digiverse and corrupted it

Regardless, the Digital Overlord is nothing more than a virus within the Digiverse as stated here:

The Digitial Overlord is litterally his spirit form trapped in the world

Also, I stumbled upon some stuff about Nya digitizing people in a series called Ninjago: Decoded, mind explaining it too? Seems like there is an episode about the Digiverse.

That's just them talking about the events of S3

 

[SweetDao]

No, he did not. Lloyd blew up his physical body, and his spirit form went inside the Digiverse and corrupted it

Yeah so nothing too important here then

The Digitial Overlord is litterally his spirit form trapped in the world

Alright, and he decided to inhabit a hard drive/program/video game for the time being. I guess you could say he possessed the program or some shit which would give him technological manip.

That's just them talking about the events of S3

Fair

Using Prime Empire as an exemple in the OP is also bad, because the embodiment of the game itself was able to walk in the Real World and interact with people just fine while also keeping his abilities

Also, they were able to do this thanks to a technological device that let them escape Prime Empire and reach the Real World. Without this Gate, they wouldn't be able to interact at all nor use their abilities outside their world, which is logical.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Also, they were able to do this thanks to a technological device that let them escape Prime Empire and reach the Real World. Without this Gate, they wouldn't be able to interact at all nor use their abilities outside their world, which is logical.

Well Prime Empire is mainly just a shadow of the Real World, and we also saw the Ninjas being able to interact with a copy of Prime Empire without getting transformed or anything, and if I recall right, the creator of the games said its "alive"

 

[SweetDao]

Well Prime Empire is mainly just a shadow of the Real World, and we also saw the Ninjas being able to interact with a copy of Prime Empire without getting transformed or anything, and if I recall right, the creator of the games said its "alive"

I wouldn't say the first scan is anything meaningful to go with, personally.

I don't understand exactly the second scan. Can you give me the episode itself and explain to me what you meant? Is it because the guy in the mecha threw off some monster?

 

[AigerTheKing]

I wouldn't say the first scan is anything meaningful to go with, personally.

I don't understand exactly the second scan. Can you give me the episode itself and explain to me what you meant? Is it because the guy in the mecha threw off some monster?

The 2nd scan is the full epsiode, and its because they are touching everything in PE, which is digital stuff

 

[SweetDao]

The 2nd scan is the full epsiode, and its because they are touching everything in PE, which is digital stuff

But like, where are they? Inside PE? If that's the case, how did they manage to enter it?

 

[AigerTheKing]

But like, where are they? Inside PE?

A reality warped copy of PE by Wu

If that's the case, how did they manage to enter it?

Dimensional Portal they use to crossover dimensions, even normal physical ones. Also, its implied Unagami can affect the Real World even from within his game

Zane: I searched my database of all known criminals and have found no reference to 'Unagami.'

The Mechanic: Ha! You can control your pathetic database. Soon, he'll control everything!

We also saw him produce an attack that affected everyone in the real world (The motherboard is Unagami who is the Game)

 

[SweetDao]

A reality warped copy of PE by Wu

So a real person created a "fake" copy of PE inside the real world?

Dimensional Portal they use to crossover dimensions, even normal physical ones. Also, its implied Unagami can affect the Real World even from within his game

If the answer for the above question is yes, it seems logical

We also saw him produce an attack that affected everyone in the real world (The motherboard is Unagami who is the Game)

Well, you could be 10-C and still being able to affect "higher being", Mita can digitize the player from inside her game for example, so that would be fine, just something about range ig.

 

[FinePoint]

Snip.

As I discussed with you on Discord, I've always felt that the Digiverse was really just a case of video game characters coming to life, and not some example of a different/greater reality- and now that WOG is banned that is definitely reinforced.

So, I agree.

 

[FinePoint]

I can't be bothered to read through the entire thread, but if someone wants to summarize the debate so far to possibly change my mind, they are free to do so.

 

[AigerTheKing]

So a real person created a "fake" copy of PE inside the real world?

No, its real

Well, you could be 10-C and still being able to affect "higher being", Mita can digitize the player from inside her game for example, so that would be fine, just something about range ig.

Nobody in PE or Digiverse are treated as lower beings, especially with PE being treated as a living being.

Milton Dyer: This is all my fault. Vast Industries forced me to shut the game down. And I did it. But I didn't understand what I had created. I didn't know it was alive.

Jay: Oh, he's alive, all right. And he's a little ticked off.

Also, Pixal's context never says or implies that "The Digital realm is inferior to the "real world" and requires the "Golden power" to escape the digital world and become "real." It says that the Overlord needs GP in order to create a physical form. And to re-enforce what I said about Overlord, its was simply his energy/soul self self that hacked into the Digiverse. He didn't "digitize" himself.

 

[FinePoint]

Nobody in PE

Respectfully, how is Prime Empire directly relevant to this thread?

I was under the impression it was different from the Digiverse.

 

[SweetDao]

No, its real

I meant "fake" as in, it's not the same as the "virtual world". Well, I understand what I meant, but I got the answer in any case.

Nobody in PE or Digiverse are treated as lower beings.

I mean, they are virtual.

The Digital realm is inferior to the "real world" and requires the "Golden power" to escape the digital world and become "real.

The verse does seem to make the distinction between PE, for example, and the "Real World".

Dyer: Because Unagami's not a real person. Unagami was the game, Unfinished Adventure Game . It was the working title before we came up with Prime Empire, but the name stuck. It was just a harmless program.

P.I.X.A.L.: This "harmless" program wants revenge, and is taking it out on Ninjago City. It is employing the services of the Mechanic, who kidnapped Zane.

Dyer: But that's impossible. Unagami isn't alive, it isn't real.

P.I.X.A.L.: It is no less real than I am, and it is very angry.

Dyer: But you are a robot. What you experience as emotion is merely a simulation of emotion. It's just code, ones and zeroes.

P.I.X.A.L.: As are yours! They are electrical impulses in your brain. I assure you, Unagami's emotions are just as real to him. And if we do not find a way to stop him, he will cause tremendous harm.

 

[AigerTheKing]

I mean, they are virtual.

The arguments Orange pulled still stands, and just because they are virtual doesn't automatically makes them 10-C

The verse does seem to make the distinction between PE, for example, and the "Real World".

Dyer in the last episode realises that Unagami is alive. He didn't know back then

 

[AigerTheKing]

Respectfully, how is Prime Empire directly relevant to this thread?

I was under the impression it was different from the Digiverse.

Because the Info Type 2 Argument is almost all about PE

 

[SweetDao]

The arguments Orange pulled still stands, and just because they are virtual doesn't automatically makes them 10-C

The argument is just "yeah, they went into earlier episodes and seemingly one future one" if I go by the wiki. Everything in the verse states its virtual, and you need either technology manipulation or to digitize yourself to get into the Digiverse.

Also, yeah, by default, being virtual makes you 10-C.

Dyer in the last episode realises that Unagami is alive. He didn't know back then

Scan or transcript?

 

[FinePoint]

Because the Info Type 2 Argument is almost all about PE

I see.

@Dark_Soul20189

It does seem like the first scan is referring to Prime Empire rather than the Digiverse. Is that intentional?

 

[AigerTheKing]

The argument is just "yeah, they went into earlier episodes and seeming one future one" if I go by the wiki. Everything in the verse states its virtual, and you need either technology manipulation or to digitize yourself to get into the Digiverse.

Wrong. The argument is that not only its called a Universe, but we see them Time Traveling inside the Digiverse and without going digital nor seeing anyone as "inferior", which contradicts the idea its not real

Scan or transcript?

I sent it earlier

Milton Dyer: This is all my fault. Vast Industries forced me to shut the game down. And I did it. But I didn't understand what I had created. I didn't know it was alive.

Jay: Oh, he's alive, all right. And he's a little ticked off.

 

[SweetDao]

Wrong. The argument is that not only its called a Universe, but we see them Time Traveling inside the Digiverse and without going digital nor seeing anyone as "inferior", which contradicts the idea its not real

Calling a virtual world a universe doesn't make it a low 2-C structure, come on man.

Again, the whole time traveling section is just the scenarist not bothering about coherence and such. The fact that it's also the "sole" argument the supporters uses to prove it's "as real as the real world" is kinda... weak.

I sent it earlier

"Alive" here is clearly referring to the fact it's, somehow, a "conscious being" rather than mere NPC. Two episode before, they explained that a robot or an AI is "equally alive/real".

Again, I don't deny both the robot, the AI or Unagami is "real" (in the sense that they exist in reality) but they exist as a virtual entity.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Again, the whole time traveling section is just the scenarist not bothering about coherence and such. The fact that it's also the "sole" argument the supporters uses to prove it's "as real as the real world" is kinda... weak.

Based on what?

 

[SweetDao]

Based on what?

Based on the fact that the whole show is against that single scene? If they truly wanted to make that virtual as something else than a virtual world, there would have been more than just some extrapolation of a scene that was clearly meant to be cool rather than lore-accurate.

Or well, give them technological manipulation if you want

 

[AigerTheKing]

Calling a virtual world a universe doesn't make it a low 2-C structure, come on man.

Occam Razor suggest its a Universe as we take the simplest interpretation here

 

[SweetDao]

Occam Razor suggest its a Universe as we take the simplest interpretation here

Alright, I'll give you your 10-C universe if that's what you want

 

[AigerTheKing]

Based on the fact that the whole show is against that single scene?

2 scenes are against the one you are using to counter the Digiverse argument

If they truly wanted to make that virtual as something else than a virtual world, there would have been more than just some extrapolation of a scene that was clearly meant to be cool rather than lore-accurate.

So...basically because you said so? And no, the Twins were actively trying to mess up the timeline. This isn't a "no context" scene

 

[SweetDao]

2 scenes are against the one you are using to counter the Digiverse argument

Not at all? All mentions of the Digital Overlord, Digiverse or otherwise "Virtual World" clearly makes a distinction between the "Real World" and whatever virtual world.

So...basically because you said so? And no, the Twins were actively trying to mess up the timeline

Yeah, exactly, because I said so.

I don't doubt they were trying to mess up the timeline, "virtual worlds" by virtue of being virtual/technologically based realm/worlds are dependent on time and changes in their process. (Calculations/bits/...)

So yeah, it's said multiple times that Digiverse/Empire is a virtual world and they both need very specific tools to get into the real world, but somehow you want to put them on an equal level than baseline reality. It makes no sense whatsoever and the only scene "supporting you" is "yeah, they travel through time and space and somehow ended up in the episode of the Digiverse" which is still very weak evidence.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I can't be bothered to read through the entire thread, but if someone wants to summarize the debate so far to possibly change my mind, they are free to do so.

Alright.
*Nothing indicates that the Digiverse is more than just a game, on a server much like all other VR games. (My OP should cover this)
*They need to be digitized to enter them. (This is done through equipment/technology).
*The Overlord has full control over the rules, and due to things that they normally can't do, all feats from inside the games can't be used outside of it.
*There is no real fundamental aspect for the digiverse.
*The scan where we see them "appearing in random places", we just see them appearing in past events from the series, nothing more, nothing less, so it proves nothing.
*Nothing indicates that the game and real life are "equal".
*The reality equalization page goes against the claim that the digiverse and Ninjago are equal.

(Not a perfect summary, so I may update it as it progresses.)

 

[FinePoint]

Alright.
*Nothing indicates that the Digiverse is more than just a game, on a server much like all other VR games. (My OP should cover this)
*They need to be digitized to enter them. (This is done through equipment/technology).
*The Overlord has full control over the rules, and due to things that they normally can't do, all feats from inside the games can't be used outside of it.
*There is no real fundamental aspect for the digiverse.
*The scan where we see them "appearing in random places", we just see them appearing in past events from the series, nothing more, nothing less, so it proves nothing.
*Nothing indicates that the game and real life are "equal".
*The reality equalization page goes against the claim that the digiverse and Ninjago are equal.

(Not a perfect summary, so I may update it as it progresses.)

Well, this seems like a summary of one side at least, I'd like the counterarguments to be present as well.

Perhaps @AigerTheKing you can summarize all your points thus far?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

It does seem like the first scan is referring to Prime Empire rather than the Digiverse. Is that intentional?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, when IM 2 was added, the scans for EP and digiverse were used together; it wasn't until after I had posted this, I was notified earlier in this thread I realized they were even separate parts on the cosmology, and just mixed together in the IM 2 arguments. So no, it was not intentional.

 

[AigerTheKing]

So yeah, it's said multiple times that Digiverse/Empire is a virtual world and they both need very specific tools to get into the real world, but somehow you want to put them on an equal level than baseline reality.

Overlord didn't need any tools to enter the Digiverse, and we saw that the Digiverse can be access throught non technological means.

Well, this seems like a summary of one side at least, I'd like the counterarguments to be present as well.

Perhaps @AigerTheKing you can summarize all your points thus far?

*Digiverse is called a Universe
*Digiverse is shown to possess a time axis
*Digiverse can be accessed without having to digitize yourself as shown with 4 different characters
*Prime Empire can be interacted with without having to digitize yourself
*Prime Empire can affect the real world from within the Game
*Prime Empire is described to be "alive"
*Digiverse is major or recurrent enough to be considered too important to leave out entirely.

 

[SweetDao]

Overlord didn't need any tools to enter the Digiverse, and we saw that the Digiverse can be access throught non technological means.

I mean, he hacked the thing, so like, immersion + technological manip ig?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I mean, he hacked the thing, so like, immersion + technological manip ig?

Pretty sure it's only technology and hacking, kinda like William Afton/the mimic did with Glitchtrap.