Digiverse is a total scam.

[Dark_Soul20189]

So, after just doing the smallest bit of digging, I have found that the entire Digiverse is a scam. Now, how can I claim such a thing? Now, here is what they claim.

Pocket Realities (Low 2-C)
Q: Is Ninjago Realm similar to a Macrocosm?

A: The Ninjago Realm could be considered a full-fledged macrocosm, as it is home to other dimensions existing within that Universe, and these dimensions are proven above to be an entire Universe level+ sized spaces:

Digiverse: An virtual universe, created by Cyrus Borg and controlled by the Overlord, often referred to as the "Digital Realm" and "World", with it having different rules

Do not attempt to downgrade the Digiverse Universal size based on its world being imaginary or like a game, as the Digiverse is treated like a Realm, and possess different rules, as well as different rule of time.

Now let's actually take a look at the scans by themself.

virtual universe

It's a virtual universe that the ninjas need to enter to fight the overlord.

created by Cyrus Borg and controlled by the Overlord

It was created by Cyros Borg and controlled by The Overlord, who has taken control over the code, and has full control over it, including the rules.

Digital Realm

The Digital realm is inferior to the "real world" and requires the "Golden power" to escape the digital world and become "real."

"World"

The Overlord claims the digital realm to be "his world."

Do not attempt to downgrade the Digiverse Universal size based on its world being imaginary or like a game, as the Digiverse is treated like a Realm, and possess different rules, as well as different rule of time.

The first one can literally be explained by it being a "game," as mentioned by the clip itself; naturally, a game would not follow real-life rules. The 2nd clip is WoG.


So we have literally nothing to base this on other than it being called a "universe/realm" and a WoG? Yeah, the Low 2C for this can go.

Important note - The game is less "real" than the real world due to it being literally just a game and code for them, and is not actually a "physical structure". So it's by no means a "R>F, or even a real dimensional construct. (Had to mention it since I am almost certain someone would try to argue for it)


Hax department now.

The Information type 2 is entirely false and should be nuked.

The Digital world is quite literally a video game, and to even interact with it, they must upload their own consciousness into that game. The entire digiverse is just data on a server in the Borg Industries. (There was a YouTube clip of it, but I can't find it, so it's likely one of the clips that got copyrighted from LEGO)

Also, as mentioned, the stuff that they can do in that world doesn't represent what they can do outside it, meaning all hax gained from this section should be removed (after all, the game functions on different rules)

Also, since when did games grant abilities to the real world in the first place? If I play a game and can use magic, how does that affect me in real life in any way? It doesn't.

So yeah, their is no real fundamental information, and just data. It's no more real than a virtual reality would be or any other game.


Counter arguments: "The Overlord's NPCs spawned in the real world."

Well, not only is that questionable by itself and contradicts the fandom and the episode summary, but we already know the entirety of Ninjago was copied into the digiverse, so what proof do we have that it's the real world? (Also, the YouTube clip is blocked by LEGO)


TLDR - The Digiverse is not a real structure, but rather just a game, on a server with its own rules (It's a game), like all games, it's made up of coding and data, but has no proof of interacting with the real world. (So no fundamental aspects, lacks a real physical structure (Nothing more than a normal VR game), due to it being a game with rules different from the real world, the characters can do stuff they normally can't, so all abilities shown in the digiverse should not exist on the profiles.


Proposal 1 - Removal of low 2C rating for Digiverse.
Agree - @Setsuna_tenma, @RitsuØ1, @Ebihara, @FinePoint, @Mr. Bambu,
Disagree -
Neutral -

Proposal 2 - Changing Information manipulation type 2 to just data manipulation. (alongside law manipulation and reality warping, reasons mentioned here)
Agree - @RitsuØ1, @Ebihara, @FinePoint, @Mr. Bambu,
Disagree -
Neutral -

Proposal 3 - Removing all abilities that were gained from inside the game, since they can't be used elsewhere.
Agree - @Setsuna_tenma, @RitsuØ1, @Ebihara, @FinePoint, @Mr. Bambu,
Disagree -
Neutral -


Notes
*The CRT will be updated as the thread progresses
*Some of the YouTube clips for this are just blocked by LEGO.
*I am not linking, for example, the Overlord explanation to IM 2, since it's completely useless, and all the scans have already been used; it's basically just him saying "his world, his rules", so the debunks already cover it.
*An alternative for Proposal 3 would be to just separate it fully from the real world, but that brings up much larger issues for the verse, and I don't know how exactly to separate it, so I think the best thing is just to nuke it.
*The last quote of the three at the top is not a rule, but rather something they added themself to prevent debunking.

 

[Hellformer]

I will not touch important parts such as cosmology or anything of the sort, and leave that for the supporters to fix.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I will not touch important parts such as cosmology or anything of the sort, and leave that for the supporters to fix.

I don't plan to, if you can't tell, but this CRT is not based around replacing or deleting "WoG"; rather, a pretty large issue I have with the entire thing.

 

[Hellformer]

I don't plan to, if you can't tell, but this CRT is not based around replacing or deleting "WoG"; rather, a pretty large issue I have with the entire thing.

There's no need to rush that, the supporters are already working on fixing issues by themselves. Be a man of your word.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

There's no need to rush that, the supporters are already working on fixing issues by themselves. Be a man of your word.

I am not going against what I said, though? My issue with Digiverse has nothing to do with WoG, but how we treat it.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree on removing the abilities and removing Low 2C.

 

[RitsuØ1]

WoG can't be used, so I agree with Proposal 1. Proposal 2 & 3 also seems fine.

 

[Ebihara]

Agree with all 3. Always been a little sketchy on info manuip type 2 from this anyways.

 

[YmTheSuper]

I agree with proposal 3 (except for the Digital Overlord since he only exists in the Digiverse and we can just specify that he can only use his abilities there), but regarding the first 2 proposals would Reality Equalization not be applicable here since The Digiverse isn't recurrent enough?

 

[SweetDao]

I agree with proposal 3 (except for the Digital Overlord since he only exists in the Digiverse and we can just specify that he can only use his abilities there), but regarding the first 2 proposals would Reality Equalization not be applicable here since The Digiverse isn't recurrent enough?

Since it's a one-off realm, that wouldn't be equalized, no. Only stuff like SAO that heavily focus on in-game content would get that sort of treatment.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I agree with proposal 3 (except for the Digital Overlord since he only existed in the Digiverse and we can just specify that he can only use his abilities there)

That's the issue, it's only applicable in the game.

but regarding the first 2 proposals would Reality Equalization not be applicable here since it isn't recurrent enough?

I don't understand what you mean by this?

If you mean that this should qualify for it, then it¨s a clear no, since the Virtual world is far from the Primary world the story takes place in, and that has been made clear repeatedly.
Not to mention, this part directly disqualifies it.

Virtual characters will be able to interact with the real world as they would in their own world and their relative strength in the virtual world will carry over.

 

[YmTheSuper]

That's the issue, it's only applicable in the game.

The Digital Overlord's whole existence is tied to the Digiverse, if we remove his abilities we might as well remove the entire key (I do believe that can index characters whose existence tied to a certain location, since this is unlike the Ninja who just entered the digiverse once and then left.)

I don't understand what you mean by this?

If you mean that this should qualify for it, then it¨s a clear no, since the Virtual world is far from the Primary world the story takes place in, and that has been made clear repeatedly.
Not to mention, this part directly disqualifies it.

Nah I was just asking if you considered it but I agree that it isn't recurrent enough to be equalized.
Although the text you quoted isn't actually a requirement rather how reality equalization would be applied if accepted.

Something that should be taken into account is the fact that Wu and The Time Twins managed to travel to The Digiverse via teleporting through time and space which could qualify it as being an actual reality (You can watch the whole episode for context it's just around 3 minutes)

Although I do think that the most egregious thing that is currently accepted is that The Digiverse is considered to be part of the Realm of Ninjago which doesn't make any sense since it's its own digital world independent of Ninjago and that should be removed either way.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

The Digital Overlord's whole existence is tied to the Digiverse, if we remove his abilities we might as well remove the entire key (I do believe that can index characters whose existence tied to a certain location, since this is unlike the Ninja who just entered the digiverse once and then left.)

Honestly, I would support just nuking it entirely.

Nah I was just asking if you considered it but I agree that it isn't recurrent enough to be equalized.
Although the text you quoted isn't actually a requirement rather how reality equalization would be applied if accepted.

Something that should be taken into account is the fact that Wu and The Time Twins managed to travel to The Digiverse via teleporting through time and space which could qualify it as being an actual reality (You can watch the whole episode for context it's just around 3 minutes)

Although I do think that the most egregious thing that is currently accepted is that The Digiverse is considered to be part of the Realm of Ninjago which doesn't make any sense since it's its own digital world independent of Ninjago and that should be removed either way.

Edit - @SweetDao explained my thoughts, which I was unable to phrase correctly. (the comment below)

 

[SweetDao]

Yeah, I would just take it as them appearing in different scene of earlier episodes (since that seems the whole point). Not really any proof of the virtual reality being equal to the real one.

 

[YmTheSuper]

Honestly, I am unsure how to even take that clip, since the entire thing just seems odd to me, even after watching the entire time, since it appears they are just traveling through time and space and just randomly traveling around, but yeah, this is by no way any indication of something being "real" or "fake".

You can't travel into a a place that isn't real by simply traveling through space and time can you? (Further context: they were inside the time vortex which is a temporal rift which allows travel through time and space which is the way The Time Twins, the elemental masters of time, can time travel.)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

You can't travel into a a place that isn't real by simply traveling through space and time can you? (Further context: they were inside the time vortex which is a temporal rift which allows travel through time and space which is the way The Time Twins, the elemental masters of time, can time travel.)

SweetDao explained my thougths much better then I could.

 

[AigerTheKing]

So we have literally nothing to base this on other than it being called a "universe/realm" and a WoG? Yeah, the Low 2C for this can go.

Important note - The game is less "real" than the real world due to it being literally just a game and code for them, and is not actually a "physical structure". So it's by no means a "R>F, or even a real dimensional construct. (Had to mention it since I am almost certain someone would try to argue for it)

Like Ym said, they wouldn't be able to casually time travel inside if it was fake

Hax department now.


The Information type 2 is entirely false and should be nuked.

The Digital world is quite literally a video game, and to even interact with it,

This scan is to describe Prime Empire. Nothing to do with Digiverse

Also, as mentioned, the stuff that they can do in that world doesn't represent what they can do outside it, meaning all hax gained from this section should be removed (after all, the game functions on different rules)

How would that affect the keys? Since Digital Overlord's abilities are restricted to his form "within the Digiverse"

Counter arguments: "The Overlord's NPCs spawned in the real world."

Overlord has no NPC in the real world. That's referring to Unagami, a whole different character

Well, not only is that questionable by itself and contradicts the fandom and the episode summary, but we already know the entirety of Ninjago was copied into the digiverse, so what proof do we have that it's the real world? (Also, the YouTube clip is blocked by LEGO)

Why do we assume Non Physical data = Not real? The Overlord and multiple EMs could access this place without digitizing themselves, which is contradictory to what you are suggesting. I don't like when people do CRTs without watching the actual show

 

[AigerTheKing]

Although I do think that the most egregious thing that is currently accepted is that The Digiverse is considered to be part of the Realm of Ninjago which doesn't make any sense since it's its own digital world independent of Ninjago and that should be removed either way.

As far as we know, the Digiverse isn't one of the 16 Realms. Its a Universe located within Ninjago

Yeah, I would just take it as them appearing in different scene of earlier episodes (since that seems the whole point). Not really any proof of the virtual reality being equal to the real one.

I don't see any basis to his argument, and how does that affect what Ym said

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Like Ym said, they wouldn't be able to casually time travel inside if it was fake

As @SweetDao already answered, it seems to be just appearing back to earlier events in the series, so that proves nothing.

This scan is to describe Prime Empire. Nothing to do with Digiverse

Then that is even worse, since it would mean that somewhere along the line, the arguments for digiverse and the Empre have merged. Meaning we can't even trust the justification to come from the right place...

How would that affect the keys? Since Digital Overlord's abilities are restricted to his form "within the Digiverse"

Either fully removed, or limited to such a degree that it can't be used for combat.

Overlord has no NPC in the real world. That's referring to Unagami, a whole different character

Lovely, so even more arguments are coming from the wrong place...

Why do we assume Non Physical data = Not real? The Overlord and multiple EMs could access this place without digitizing themselves, which is contradictory to what you are suggesting. I don't like when people do CRTs without watching the actual show

Your liking or disliking something is by no means a justification, but to answer the question, it simply doesn't meet the requirements for Information 2, since it's not a real fundamental aspect. It's no different from a VR game.

 

[AigerTheKing]

As @SweetDao already answered, it seems to be just appearing back to earlier events in the series, so that proves nothing.

Time Travel in the past or in the future of the Realm would prove its real regardless (In fact, you should normally be able to do that in an actual Universe). Dao's argument doesn't counter anything that Ym pointed out

Then that is even worse, since it would mean that somewhere along the line, the arguments for digiverse and the Empre have merged. Meaning we can't even trust the justification to come from the right place...

No

Either fully removed, or limited to such a degree that it can't be used for combat.

This is the equivalent of "Outside his void | Within his void" situation. Don't see why we should remove it for anything

Lovely, so even more arguments are coming from the wrong place...

Arguments from you

Your liking or disliking something is by no means a justification, but to answer the question, it simply doesn't meet the requirements for Information 2, since it's not a real fundamental aspect. It's no different from a VR game.

The justification is barely related on Digiverse, but on Prime Empire primarely. Do you have an obsession with Info Type 2 on the wiki or something?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Time Travel in the past or in the future of the Realm would prove its real regardless (In fact, you should normally be able to do that in an actual Universe). Dao's argument doesn't counter anything that Ym pointed out

I don't see what you are trying to claim is accurate for what was shown, and Yim appeared to agree with SweetDao's expalantion/interpetation.

No

Great argument.

This is the equivalent of "Outside his void | Within his void" situation. Don't see why we should remove it for anything

Great! More that needs to be removed or isolated, then.

Arguments from you

These are the arguments that were used to help justify The Overlords IM 2. So they originally came from LLoyd, but sure, you can blame me if you want.

The justification is barely related on Digiverse, but on Prime Empire primarely.

Then that is even worse, if a large margin of what was presented as justification for the digital verse IM 2 originally came from there.

Do you have an obsession with Info Type 2 on the wiki or something?

It's one of the abilities I am much more knowledgeable in, so I can actually debate that more properly than the other ones.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Why should Low 2-C go if it is literally a universe, and this part is not an author statement?
Undertale is also just a game canonically inverse but still has Information Manipulation Type 2.
I don’t see why Overlord can’t have those, given he has total control over it? Disagreed.

 

[SweetDao]

I don't see any basis to his argument, and how does that affect what Ym said

"It doesn't please me so I don't see any basis"

Anyway, yeah, no one ever said the whole stuff about the Digiverse isn't real. The events happen, the video game exists, etc. If you wish to treat it as a pocket reality, you can, I guess.

Technically, "Data" is still "real". The whole point is just that it isn't on the same degree as reality itself. So like, you would get a 11-C pocket reality, ig.

I would need to check how a similar event was treated for another show. I don't even know if it's indexed at all.

Regardless, that's not a Low 2-C structure, nor info manip due to how it's being treated.

 

[SweetDao]

Nevermind seems like we treat data being as 10-C, which is logical in hindsight.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

"It doesn't please me so I don't see any basis"

Anyway, yeah, no one ever said the whole stuff about the Digiverse isn't real. The events happen, the video game exists, etc. If you wish to treat it as a pocket reality, you can, I guess.

Technically, "Data" is still "real". The whole point is just that it isn't on the same degree as reality itself. So like, you would get a 11-C pocket reality, ig.

I would need to check how a similar event was treated for another show. I don't even know if it's indexed at all.

Regardless, that's not a Low 2-C structure, nor info manip due to how it's being treated.

Why isn’t Monika 10-C? She is in a game too that is stated to be a universe. Same with Undertale.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Why isn’t Monika 10-C? She is in a game too that is stated to be a universe. Same with Undertale.

Are you deliberately choosing bad examples?

If you can't tell, there is a difference between having a "primary game world made out of data" and just a game world that is not the primary world of the story.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Are you deliberately choosing bad examples?

If you can't tell, there is a difference between having a "primary game world made out of data" and just a game world that is not the primary world of the story.

There is no difference. In both cases, these are games that are stated to be universe that characters can warp, destroy, etc.

 

[SweetDao]

Why isn’t Monika 10-C? She is in a game too that is stated to be a universe. Same with Undertale.

Monika, with the sole reason of the game taking largely 95%+ of the VN lifespan, would just be reality equalization.

Undertale is the same.

Mita from Miside is the same.

Kirito (the game avatar) from SAO is the same.

Ainz from Overlord is the same.

Guy from Log Horizon is the same

A one-off digital realm isn't enough to "equalize reality".

 

[SweetDao]

• The story should focus, in large part, on the virtual world in question. While it is not required for the entire verse to take place inside the virtual world, it should be major or recurrent enough to be considered too important to leave out entirely.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Digiverse is a major thing of Ninjago, Season 3. It is the reason for Overlord’s revival being so soon. And the return of Overlord caused a whole chain of events in the series all the way to Day of the Departed, and had consequences even beyond that.

 

[SweetDao]

Digiverse is a major thing of Ninjago, Season 3. It is the reason for Overlord’s revival being so soon. And the return of Overlord caused a whole chain of events in the series all the way to Day of the Departed, and had consequences even beyond that.

One-off realm.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Stating this does not change the massive impact it has over the plot.
Also:

You can't travel into a a place that isn't real by simply traveling through space and time can you? (Further context: they were inside the time vortex which is a temporal rift which allows travel through time and space which is the way The Time Twins, the elemental masters of time, can time travel.)

This one is a very good argument.

 

[SweetDao]

Stating this does not change the massive impact it has over the plot.

You do realize "Major" here is used as a synonym for "recurrent" right?

This one is a very good argument.

10-C pocket reality, if you want it

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You do realize "Major" here is used as a synonym for "recurrent" right?

Nope, it is not. It says major OR recurrent. Thus it can be either this or that. And Digiverse is very major.

10-C pocket reality, if you want it

It is a universe, thus space-time and four-dimensional by default.

 

[SweetDao]

Nope, it is not. It says major OR recurrent. Thus it can be either this or that. And Digiverse is very major.

Are you serious man...

It is a universe, thus space-time and four-dimensional by default.

10-C universe is worth nothing if not equalized. Also sure, get your 10-C four dimensional pocket reality if you wish, doesn't change it's 10-C from the perspective of baseline reality.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Are you serious man...

10-C universe is worth nothing if not equalized. Also sure, get your 10-C four dimensional pocket reality if you wish, doesn't change it's 10-C from the perspective of baseline reality.

How are people from the Real World able to interact with it then?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Are you serious man...

Yes man…

While it is not required for the entire verse to take place inside the virtual world, it should be major or recurrent enough to be considered too important to leave out entirely.

10-C universe is worth nothing if not equalized. Also sure, get your 10-C four dimensional pocket reality if you wish, doesn't change it's 10-C from the perspective of baseline reality.

4D universe is now 10-C… understandable, have a good day.

 

[SweetDao]

How are people from the Real World able to interact with it then?

You mean entering it? They get digitized into the game/program.

 

[SweetDao]

4D universe is now 10-C… understandable, have a good day.

Instant Death Celestial Foundations (and Tensura Worlds iirc) were downgraded for less than that. It's a digital world. That it is the size of an atom, a city, a planet, a universe or a multiverse, it would STILL be 10-C. You can add time if you want, it won't change the rating either.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Instant Death Celestial Foundations (and Tensura Worlds iirc)

Poor IDCF and TW.

Anyways, it is a major part of Ninjago and is a universe, so don’t see what’s wrong with Low 2-C. Downplay all you want, my stance is the same.