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Medaka Box General Discussion

Thank you very much for your reply. I have begun to read some chapters of Cipher Academy. I just wondered about if you have any insights regarding its psychological and conceptual aspects, given how deeply indepth personal Medaka Box and Shounen Shoujo were for me in that regard. 🙏
 
I don't think there's very much. At most, I think there are some cursory explorations of trauma, anonymity, and duty. Certainly, nothing as striking as Medaka Box and Shounen Shoujo, to me at least.
 
Okay, so it is more a way to simultaneously train readers' analytical skills (although given that most of the brain teasers seem to be dependent on being able to read the work in its original Japanese, that turns virtually impossible for westerners), and simultaneously taking a moral stance against the warmongering military industrial complex, than the massively indepth and complicated psychological and narrative masterpieces that were Medaka Box and Shounen Shoujo? 🙏
 
Pages 120+: Skill Dictionary (Mostly what you'd expect, but does also include things that aren't abnormalities/minuses, like Medaka's animal intimidation, and styles. Looks like this is ordered by chronological appearance, but I'm not 100% certain on that)

There’s actually some pretty neat stuff when it comes to this part in the dictionary. Like how Medaka has Hanten’s skill to create skills which isn’t stated in the manga iirc, but honestly makes sense as that section is talking about Medaka’s skill rush and it having unique skills.
 
Okay, so it is more a way to simultaneously train readers' analytical skills (although given that most of the brain teasers seem to be dependent on being able to read the work in its original Japanese, that turns virtually impossible for westerners), and simultaneously taking a moral stance against the warmongering military industrial complex, than the massively indepth and complicated psychological and narrative masterpieces that were Medaka Box and Shounen Shoujo? 🙏
Precisely.
 
Okay. Noted. Thank you for the information. 🙏
 
Waow this thread is Dead huh, anyways looking at the current state of profiles I don't see any scans for most of the claims.
 
Hello everyone (2 people) as promised I am finally done with my sandbox. The entire purpose of this is to explain some basic stuff, 90% of these abilities are already accepted. My Blog just adds scans and references as well as proper justifications. I plan on making a detailed CRT soon tackling this blog but for now I would appreciate it if someone knowledgeable gave their input since this is my first Blog so I am not well versed with the rules.
 
Hello everyone (2 people) as promised I am finally done with my sandbox. The entire purpose of this is to explain some basic stuff, 90% of these abilities are already accepted. My Blog just adds scans and references as well as proper justifications. I plan on making a detailed CRT soon tackling this blog but for now I would appreciate it if someone knowledgeable gave their input since this is my first Blog so I am not well versed with the rules.
Hehe 😏
 
Hello everyone (2 people) as promised I am finally done with my sandbox. The entire purpose of this is to explain some basic stuff, 90% of these abilities are already accepted. My Blog just adds scans and references as well as proper justifications. I plan on making a detailed CRT soon tackling this blog but for now I would appreciate it if someone knowledgeable gave their input since this is my first Blog so I am not well versed with the rules.
Plot Manipulation for The Hero is so back? (Well limited)

Okay fr I’ll look into this more, but Ajimu being delusional (which is supported even in the Hakoniwa Dictionary) kinda makes Plot Manipulation at all unlikely. Not sure where Invulnerability is coming from either.
 
Okay fr I’ll look into this more, but Ajimu being delusional (which is supported even in the Hakoniwa Dictionary) kinda makes Plot Manipulation at all unlikely. Not sure where Invulnerability is coming from either.
Well she is a schizo yes but despite that it's still true that no-one could beat Medaka Before even if we consider Anshin to be unreliable (she is) it's still true that Zenkichi and others couldn't beat Medaka and that Anshin & others (except Medaka) couldn't beat Ilhiko so that's where the argument comes in that some characters are “esentially favoured by the plot to some extent” the scope is very limited though but yea that's the most controversial one.
Invulnerability I genuinely have no clue what to replace that with. What I meant to say is that “Only a MC can beat a MC” idk what hax is viable for that.
 
Well she is a schizo yes but despite that it's still true that no-one could beat Medaka Before even if we consider Anshin to be unreliable (she is) it's still true that Zenkichi and others couldn't beat Medaka and that Anshin & others (except Medaka) couldn't beat Ilhiko so that's where the argument comes in that some characters are “esentially favoured by the plot to some extent” the scope is very limited though but yea that's the most controversial one.
Invulnerability I genuinely have no clue what to replace that with. What I meant to say is that “Only a MC can beat a MC” idk what hax is viable for that.
We currently just index this as a very high level of Supernatural Luck. You can see it on Medaka's profile, Zenkichi's profile, and Iihiko's profile.
 
I'm generally not sure where that would go, what that would add, or what purpose it would serve. So it's hard to comment on it.
 
I'm generally not sure where that would go, what that would add, or what purpose it would serve. So it's hard to comment on it.
Personally I think it’s another method of how the hero manifests as luck in the form of narrative tropes, like the “missing vitals” thing or the “thinking of something last minute to turn the tides of battle” thing, so I think it being an extension of the luck ability makes the most sense.
 
I'm generally not sure where that would go, what that would add, or what purpose it would serve. So it's hard to comment on it.
Well I recently saw the main profile page for Medaka Box and figured that other than the Power segment there isn't rlly anything else so I figured it's better to have an overarching blog that talks about a bunch of stuff so that
  • People can easily get familiar with the various concepts
  • It's easier to index abilities for characters without a lengthy explanation in the profiles
What I want to do is essentially link this blog (if it gets accepted) with the main page somewhere below power of the verse.
I took inspiration from the Tensura Main page obviously Medaka Box doesn't have nearly as many stuff to talk about but still thought it would be nice to have a Blog covering a lot of the basics which could be linked with profiles.
 
Well I recently saw the main profile page for Medaka Box and figured that other than the Power segment there isn't rlly anything else so I figured it's better to have an overarching blog that talks about a bunch of stuff so that
  • People can easily get familiar with the various concepts
  • It's easier to index abilities for characters without a lengthy explanation in the profiles
What I want to do is essentially link this blog (if it gets accepted) with the main page somewhere below power of the verse.
I took inspiration from the Tensura Main page obviously Medaka Box doesn't have nearly as many stuff to talk about but still thought it would be nice to have a Blog covering a lot of the basics which could be linked with profiles.
Well then, I think there's not enough information to merit stuff like this. I think there's a certain amount of info that requires this sorta thing, which MB doesn't have, and it's generally far from our quality standards. There's a lot of inconsistent captalisation, spacing, grammar issues, occasional spelling issues (i.e. "Hokinawa academy"), incorrect bullet points, etc.

The Cosmology & settings/concept sections are completely unnecessary. Physiology and skills section ultimately just communicates that Specials are generally superhuman, without actually providing a convincing source for that. The Skills section giving all those resistances isn't properly substantiated, and is overgeneralising from extremely specific cases (such as Oudo being scared off of taking Medaka's abnormality).

The Abnormals section is largely unnecessary, with the necessary part being rather short once we remove the unfounded stuff (such as saying that "If Medaka still had her abnormality she wouldn't have lost her memories", despite her having her abnormality at that point in time; and saying "Affecting one's memory allows one to affect their very skill." linking scans which don't substantiate that, and which have incorrect descriptions referencing the normalize liquid).

The Minuses section has some other ill-founded stuff, presenting Kumagawa as having an aura that must be applied to everyone around them constantly, and thus giving everyone who doesn't react a resistance (which I guess must be literally every single student at the academy?!?). Implicit resistance scaling based on extremely weak evidence like this should not be done. It also says that Minuses should get Resistance for not being affected something which only works on Abnormalities? As Naze said, she thought they did simply have Abnormalities. The bit saying "copying a Minus's skill will result in copying their personalities and urges as well" isn't really founded, that bit just says that because Munakata's abnormality is his killing intent, if you copied that, you would have that killing intent.

The Styles section overgeneralises, giving all Style users the stat amp thing despite that only being demonstrated by Fukurou and Medaka (Fukurou being the inventor of Styles who handed out particular ones, and Medaka copying this specific usage from him). It also gives them Empathic Manipulation for no justified reason.

The Not-Equals & The Hero sections are unnecessary.

With what's left, there's not enough left to form a proper verse-specific P&A page, and doing so generally seems unhelpful at this point. It's a small series that has ended ages ago, and already has the proper stuff on the relevant profiles, it's not like there will be regular revisions adding swaths of new abilities to massive classes of characters.




Ultimately you could make a CRT, but I'd reject it for those reasons, and I don't see a path to rework it into something I would accept.
 
Well then, I think there's not enough information to merit stuff like this. I think there's a certain amount of info that requires this sorta thing, which MB doesn't have, and it's generally far from our quality standards. There's a lot of inconsistent captalisation, spacing, grammar issues, occasional spelling issues (i.e. "Hokinawa academy"), incorrect bullet points, etc.

The Cosmology & settings/concept sections are completely unnecessary. Physiology and skills section ultimately just communicates that Specials are generally superhuman, without actually providing a convincing source for that. The Skills section giving all those resistances isn't properly substantiated, and is overgeneralising from extremely specific cases (such as Oudo being scared off of taking Medaka's abnormality).

The Abnormals section is largely unnecessary, with the necessary part being rather short once we remove the unfounded stuff (such as saying that "If Medaka still had her abnormality she wouldn't have lost her memories", despite her having her abnormality at that point in time; and saying "Affecting one's memory allows one to affect their very skill." linking scans which don't substantiate that, and which have incorrect descriptions referencing the normalize liquid).

The Minuses section has some other ill-founded stuff, presenting Kumagawa as having an aura that must be applied to everyone around them constantly, and thus giving everyone who doesn't react a resistance (which I guess must be literally every single student at the academy?!?). Implicit resistance scaling based on extremely weak evidence like this should not be done. It also says that Minuses should get Resistance for not being affected something which only works on Abnormalities? As Naze said, she thought they did simply have Abnormalities. The bit saying "copying a Minus's skill will result in copying their personalities and urges as well" isn't really founded, that bit just says that because Munakata's abnormality is his killing intent, if you copied that, you would have that killing intent.

The Styles section overgeneralises, giving all Style users the stat amp thing despite that only being demonstrated by Fukurou and Medaka (Fukurou being the inventor of Styles who handed out particular ones, and Medaka copying this specific usage from him). It also gives them Empathic Manipulation for no justified reason.

The Not-Equals & The Hero sections are unnecessary.

With what's left, there's not enough left to form a proper verse-specific P&A page, and doing so generally seems unhelpful at this point. It's a small series that has ended ages ago, and already has the proper stuff on the relevant profiles, it's not like there will be regular revisions adding swaths of new abilities to massive classes of characters.




Ultimately you could make a CRT, but I'd reject it for those reasons, and I don't see a path to rework it into something I would accept.
I C, so it's better to work on the profiles instead I assume ?
 
Ye. As I said, the structure of the keys as a whole need a fair bit of work. Plus, it'd be nice to simply have profiles for more characters.
 
Ye. As I said, the structure of the keys as a whole need a fair bit of work. Plus, it'd be nice to simply have profiles for more characters.
Alright, do you recommend completely reworking on the profiles from scratch and replace them with a sandbox or just adding scans, justifications and attempting to salvage the current ones.
 
Medaka's keys are such a clusterfuck that she's probably better reworked from scratch (aside from some justifications and explanations, particularly in the NA&T), but most are already close enough that they should probably just be revised.
 
What better time to revise Kumagawa's profile than now considering the previous CRT just concluded, anyways this is an informal yap that's meant as a short summary of the next CRT. I am sending this here first because I want to know what other supporters think and I don't want to unnecessarily debate or prolong the CRT.

Anyways here's Kumagawa's profile,
Immortality (Type 2 normally)
This has no justification so either we can remove it or use the example of Kumagawa surving with a screw in his head.
Immortality (Type 2 can survive with a screw lodged in his head, Type 4 via All Fiction; Using All Fiction Kumagawa could resurrect himself)
Limited Power Modification (After being given Ajimu's Hundred Gauntlets ability, Kumagawa evolved it from the harmless ability to switch cause and effect, into All Fiction, an ability that denies the existence of cause and effect),
This can be reworded to:
Limited Power Modification (self; After being given Ajimu's Hundred Gauntlets ability, Kumagawa evolved it from the harmless ability to switch cause and effect, into All Fiction, an ability that denies the existence of cause and effect)
Since he can only modify his own abilities but yea this is being nitpicky so I don't mind otherwise
In addition to Subjective Reality and Weapon Creation (With Imagination Manifestation),
So yea this should be gone, I am neutral on the weapon Creation bit but subjective reality shouldn't be listed on his profile and I will explain why.
The argument comes from these panels in ch 110-111 where the student council and others are partaking in a trial, in said trial they are basically participating in a “make a believe game” where they have to beat an imaginary cerebus. So Kumagawa essentially creates an image of an imaginary blade via imposing the image of said imaginary blade on those around him in the end because of his loser personality the blade crumbles so I suggest that this should be removed.


Now for this;
Power Nullification and Statistics Reduction (Can bring an opponent down to his level in intellect, technique, body, and spirit with Book Maker), likely Sealing, Durability Negation, and Non-Physical Interaction (Book Maker is capable of by-passing defensive abilities and traits including non-corporeality)
Durability negation can be argued but per wiki standards it doesn't qualify for sealing and Non Physical Interaction is too much of a stretch so it should be reworded to;
Power Nullification and Statistics Reduction (Can bring an opponent down to his level in intellect, technique, body, and spirit with Book Maker), likely Durability Negation (Kumagawa can impose the image of a screw on those around him).
This might qualify for subjective reality but the application would be oddly specific so I will leave that for others to decide

Now for new abilities;
• [[Enhanced Sense|Enhanced Vision & hearing]] & likely [[Stealth Mastery]] (Telescopic vision; Kumagawa can see and hear conversation from far away. Kumagawa is capable of erasing his own aura and catching others off guard)

Now do note that this can be treated as a “Haha Funny gag moment” but I found this to be very interesting. Also I thought that erasure of aura would give him some sort of ability
• Minor Space Manipulation, Absolute Zero, Temperature Manipulation, Existence Erasure, Time Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Law Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Power Nullification, and Resurrection through Causality Manipulation (All Fiction is an ability that denies the existence[1] of cause and effect.[2] With it Kumagawa can warp space[3], induce Absolute Zero via erasing the temperature from something,[4] erase people like Zenkichi,[5] erase time,[4] erase the concept of all colours, [6] erase laws,[4] erase memories[7], erase powers[8] and even erase his own injuries[6][1][3][9] making him capable of resurrecting himself[2])
With these I propose adding;

• [[Perception Manipulation|Vision Manipulation]], [[Aura|Aura Erasure]] & [[Restoration|Temporal Restoration]] (Erased Zenkichi's sight & his own aura, Kumagawa can [ erase injuries and restore other objects or someone's injuries]).

Explanation; The Previous profile had healing listed but it got caught up in the revisions and never got added because I forgot to list it either way I feel like [[Restoration]] is a better fit than [[Healing]] since he is erasing the cause behind the injuries thus restoring himself.

Additionally I want to add:
• [[Durability Negation]] & possibly [[Mind Manipulation]] (Kumagawa's screws inflict mental damage).

Now for Resistance
• Minor [[Resistance]] to [[Empathic Manipulation]] (Mizou Yukuhashi was [https://gyazo.com/bcae6fddd2d61d4afc6844854586154e unable to read his thoughts and thought that he had no heart] Akane stated that Kumagawa [https://gyazo.com/0bf1c4d0294ce897aa18c554688b26c7 was capable of killing his emotions in an instant]. Kumagawa is unaffected by Medaka's charisma)

Now the reason why this is minor is because later on Anshin told us that Kumagawa does have [https://gyazo.com/717d700fcea56485c29296024e240b0d something that resembles a heart] and everytime Kuma dies he meets the Anshin inside his heart.

Likely Resistance to Low Temperatures (was completely unimpeded by the low temperatures of the Antarctic circle)

This is already listed in Mogura's profile and Kumagawa did the same

For Bookmaker;
• [[Resistance]] to [[Power Nullification]] (Kumagawa's Bookmaker is the [https://gyazo.com/3d83aeccc5018820c4260c6b82808536 only skill in History that works on a Not-Equal like Anshin], Anshin was unable nullify Kumagawa's Bookmaker despite possessing Live Zero [https://gyazo.com/07b50f992e34fc774c351e891e433f6c a skill that nullifie other skills])

• [[Resistance]] to [[Pain Manipulation]] (Kumagawa can erase his own pain allowing him to endure the pain from [ fatal injuries] or [ getting killed over and over again])


That's all I can think of tell me if I missed something. Can you give your input that will be greatly appreciated.
Ps: I will add proper scans and references for the revised stuff that gets accepted in the actual CRT.
Also I would appreciate it if the other verses supporters weighed in their opinions, cya in the CRT.
 
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Brief thoughts:
  • Some of those scans are broken.
  • I think Weapon Creation should just be ascribed to his screw spawning, and be given to his first key.
  • The reasoning for Durability Negation seems insufficient.
  • Mind Manipulation should be chucked onto Bookmaker, since it alters the target's intellect, spirit, and talent.
  • I kinda doubt that resistance to Empathic Manip; he's been overwhelmed by emotions at many points in the series. I'd just say that those earlier statements are exaggerations from non-experts who don't really understand what's going on.
  • Where's the indication that Kumagawa can erase the pain he suffers? He didn't even actually get spawn camped in that scene, that was just the plan, but it failed.
  • I think it'd be good for Kumagawa to have more keys, since his ability set changes more times.
  • It might be worth checking this respect thread for things that might have been missed; glossing through it myself I noticed that when All Fiction was weakened, he couldn't undo Zenkichi's seppuku wound, since that was reality created with "strong feelings", so that's a limitation worth including for some of the series.
 
Brief thoughts:
  • Some of those scans are broken.
I will recheck the scans before making the CRT also the Gayazo ones don't show embeds
  • I think Weapon Creation should just be ascribed to his screw spawning, and be given to his first key.
I am fine with that
  • The reasoning for Durability Negation seems insufficient.
I don't see how, he can bypass durability by spawning the screw inside someone no ? Also the screws do mental damage and heal quickly so I think it might qualify.
  • Mind Manipulation should be chucked onto Bookmaker, since it alters the target's intellect, spirit, and talent.
Sure but even his All Fiction screws seem to inflict mental damage
  • I kinda doubt that resistance to Empathic Manip; he's been overwhelmed by emotions at many points in the series. I'd just say that those earlier statements are exaggerations from non-experts who don't really understand what's going on.
Well even Anshin said that “Kumagawa possesses something that resembles a heart” and he has shown emotions before but those were of his own volition also considering he is unaffected by a Minus's aura or even Medaka's absurd charisma I think Limited Resistance is fine.
  • Where's the indication that Kumagawa can erase the pain he suffers? He didn't even actually get spawn camped in that scene, that was just the plan, but it failed.
That's one way to interpret the scene, I always saw it as
Saki leaves the room -> Time skip -> Saki enters and sees everyone screwed.
During the time skip instead of dying endlessly because of her unwillingness to kill Kumagawa little by little he could screw them one by one between each death.
Here are the scans

Obviously there are many other scenes where he “erases his pain” or at least shows very high tolerance.
  • I think it'd be good for Kumagawa to have more keys, since his ability set changes more times.
I don't rlly mind.
I will take a look also funny thing I was about to propose this as a weakness in the CRT. Between the time where Kumagawa exchanged All Fiction or rather Hundred Gauntlets for Bookmaker and when he got back Bookmaker from Anshin Kumagawa's All Fiction couldn't erase things that had a “strong feeling”
  • We see this with Zenkichi's seppuku wounds
  • We see this with Shiranui's memories (That's why Medaka didn't forget)

And later on that's what gives us the iconic scene of Kumagawa erasing Zenkichi and telling Shiranui that now he is fully capable of erasing her memories from everyone. Ofc he was bluffing because he was using April Fiction iirc and later on in the Ilhiko fight he finally got Non Fiction which lets him undo things thus changing his personality. This also ties in with my belief on him getting Minor Resistance to Empathy Manipulation because his very skill affects his personality so his All Fiction key should at least get that.

Also I take it that you agree with the rest ?
 
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I think it's best to save long-form discussion for the thread itself.
 
Brief thoughts:
  • Some of those scans are broken.
  • I think Weapon Creation should just be ascribed to his screw spawning, and be given to his first key.
  • The reasoning for Durability Negation seems insufficient.
  • Mind Manipulation should be chucked onto Bookmaker, since it alters the target's intellect, spirit, and talent.
  • I kinda doubt that resistance to Empathic Manip; he's been overwhelmed by emotions at many points in the series. I'd just say that those earlier statements are exaggerations from non-experts who don't really understand what's going on.
  • Where's the indication that Kumagawa can erase the pain he suffers? He didn't even actually get spawn camped in that scene, that was just the plan, but it failed.
  • I think it'd be good for Kumagawa to have more keys, since his ability set changes more times.
  • It might be worth checking this respect thread for things that might have been missed; glossing through it myself I noticed that when All Fiction was weakened, he couldn't undo Zenkichi's seppuku wound, since that was reality created with "strong feelings", so that's a limitation worth including for some of the series.
This seems to make sense to me. 🙏
 
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