(Gurren Lagann) Simon the Digger and Anti-Spiral upgrade

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/gurre...e-in-the-upgrade-that-believes-in-you.172106/

https://kirbonicpikminvs.blogspot.com/2024/08/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-cosmology.html?m=1


Here's the Drama CD:

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1KT411R7JP/

Around the 41:00 mark.

This is the transcript that someone made.

戦力 プラス 納得 力 2つ の 力 を 20次元 に ねじ曲げ て 勝利 を 掴む ハゲ が 吠える 位 インフィニティ ビッグ モンスター な。 パワー だ。 宇宙 創 生 の 業火 に 焼か れ、 DNA の 1片 まで 完全 消滅 じゃ ない わ。 この ハゲ ヒゲ 胸毛 が どこ か で 聞い た よう な セリフ を 吐き おっ て だ が、 この 納得 力 は 半端 で は ない。 いけ ない。 この まま で は グレート グレンラガン が 焼き 尽くさ れる は。 上 の 野郎。 何 が 芽生 の 担任 だ。 大きな 口 ばかり 叩き や がっ て。

However, I urge anyone that knows Japanese to give it an actual listen.

This is from the Gurren Lagann novelization:

Nia enters the cockpit of Gurren Lagann with Simon.
Each Lagann merged into Gurren Lagann.
It was anger. It was sadness. It was compassion. It was every emotion one could think of.t was anger. It was sadness. It was compassion. It was every emotion one could think of.
The feelings that each of us had in our respective universes appeared in the form of a drill, breaking through the wall.
It was appearing in the form of two shapes and sizes, and they became one.
If you have no choice but to fight, do not hesitate.
We are not afraid to ask for power.
If there's a wall, we'll hit and break it, if there's no way, we'll make it with our own hands!
-No, more.
Breaks through cause, effect and fate, scream cry of life resounds in the galaxy!
-Still, more.
Engrave the feelings of a friend in this body, and turn infinite darkness into light!
-That's it.
Greater powerful than stars and galaxies.
Greater power than dimensions and time.

It's just one line but I believe it's important to point out anyway because it means main Simon scales to Avant Simon.

This is the multiversal story of Kamino Kamina, a high school student who piloted Guren Lagann and protected present day Japan.

The ending of the Otoko manga shows Simon in the labyrinth also absorbing that timeline.

"Yeah!"
The members of the Gurren Lagann behind me nodded vigorously when I said that. Thank you, brother. I believe in you who believes in me. I believe in my friends who believes in myself.
Simon held up his core drill to the heaven and a flash of light flashed across the sky. Countless appearances of Simon appeared in the sky, and they were the past, the present, and the future, every place, every time, and the innumerable selves that live in a world of infinite possibilities.
There is no escaping wherever you go. In a closed infinite universe, various lives are repeated. In that universe of possibilities, Simon twisted the countless selves he had drilled into one, twisting them together into a giant drill, and before he realized that it was a huge drill, Simon wasn't there but Gurren Lagann. There stood Gurren Lagann, holding up the giga drill, "Let's go, buddy!"

Kamina: Yeah. (Nodding)

The other members of the Team Dai-Gurren who were behind him nodded. Simon turns his back. Simon's appearances spread out across the entire space. It's Simon's appearances spread out in a multiverse of possibilities for each possible appearance. But the core drill shines in Simon's chest. and his left arm becomes Gurren Lagann's. A drill appears from "there". That drill spins rapidly. The drill engulfs Simon in the multiverse, turning him into a vortex of light.

Simon "Let's go, buddy."

In that glow, Simon transforms into Gurren Lagann's form and flies off into the void.

More information on why main timeline Simon would scale to both Otoko and Avant Simon, namely that when Simon absorbed the timelines in the labyrinth, he absorbed all of them thus including the Drama CD's timeline.


Basically, Otoko and Avant Simon are around 20-D at least thanks to the fourth Drama CD and the Simon from the TV series/movies would scale to that due to absorbing the entire multiversal labyrinth. By extension, the Anti-Spiral would also scale to this for still overpowering Team Dai-Gurren during the final battle.

As such, I vote for changing their Tier from High 1-C to 1-B. Simple enough, right?


Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Robo432343]

writer of ttgl said the multiverse is 11-D

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

writer of ttgl said the multiverse is 11-D

And the Drama CD proves that wrong, heck, the same writer said it's 20-D in the Drama CD. Why do you keep using outdated information?

 

[Robo432343]

And the Drama CD proves that wrong. Why do you keep using outdated information?

No???
The writers statement is true as this scan confirms it

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

No???
The writers statement is true as this scan confirms it

The same writer wrote the Drama CD and he said that it's 20-D there.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/gurre...rade-that-believes-in-you.172106/post-6739515

https://vsbattles.com/threads/gurre...rade-that-believes-in-you.172106/post-6739530

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

No???
The writers statement is true as this scan confirms it

Tbf, that does not say that the multiverse is just 11-D. But that there are 11 dimensions on the universe

 

[Xtars1998]

Tbf, that does not say that the multiverse is just 11-D. But that there are 11 dimensions on the universe

it said 10th and 11th not 10 and 11, they are multi layered too (it's in the cosmology blog tf?)

 

[Xtars1998]

tbh, in the previous upgrade thread people disagree about the 1-A stuffs, but they all accepted the 1-B, so i'm gonna agree then

 

[Hellformer]

Agree

 

[Saqphire]

writer of ttgl said the multiverse is 11-D

He never said it caps there, he said it's based on developing scientific theories about multi-dimensional multiverses, that's why he changes his mind about how many dimensions it has

The interpretation of the multiverse has advanced so rapidly in the last few decades that when we were children, it was only 4 dimensional, but now it is said to be 11 dimensional. Our job is to tell lies, so we take those theories and twist them into something interesting.

Something that "was" 4-D and "now it is said" to be 11-D does not mean "The multiverse is 11-D and it caps there" as a result. And as OP mentioned, the Drama CD mentions the Infinity Big Monster that can turn two forces into something with 20-D properties which is a blatant contradiction to the very idea that the verse simply caps at 11-D, and we know that scientific theories that go beyond 11-D exist so this cosmology can very plausibly just be one of them.

No???
The writers statement is true as this scan confirms it

This doesn't mean the verse caps at 11D, like the others said, it's just an oscillating time-space between the 10th and 11th dimensions

 

[StrymULTRA]

I do not doubt this but...

Any evidence that they scale to the 20-D part of the cosmology?

 

[Johner2133451]

I do not doubt this but...

Any evidence that they scale to the 20-D part of the cosmology?

I think Simon has statements of transcending space itself in guidebooks (Idk if it qualifies tho)

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I do not doubt this but...

Any evidence that they scale to the 20-D part of the cosmology?

This. As far as I understand, the Anti-Spiral Universe exists between the 10th and 11th dimensions. Do the God-Tiers scale to the 20-Dimensional extent of the cosmology?

Otherwise, I agree with the upgrade. I don't believe any of the 11-D statements are exclusionary in nature. Lordgenome says there are at least 10-11 dimensions, not that there are only 10-11 dimensions. A similar thing goes with the author statement.

"Ninja Batman" is a so-called "time thing" in which Batman is sent to the Sengoku period. In Japanese animation, there is a restriction that "changing the past will change the present", so I think there is a tendency to be very careful about time things and time-changing things. I'm going to do it boldly without worrying about such things.

Nakajima: That's because it's American comics. American comics have a multiverse, that is, a worldview in which there are many universes, which has permeated the reader. And now, time-altering stories are essentially multiverse stories. Since there are all kinds of possible universes, whatever you do becomes "that universe" (laughs). The interpretation of the multiverse has advanced dramatically in the past few decades, and while when we were kids it was only 4 dimensions, now people say there are 11 dimensions. Our job is to lie, so we misinterpret such theories and roll them in an interesting direction.

Speaking of which, in "Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann" (hereafter referred to as "Gurren Lagann"), there was a story about "quantum cosmology that exists by being observed."

Nakajima: At that time, when I looked up cosmology, I found that it had advanced a lot since I hadn't read it for a while. I was given the theory that "it can only be confirmed once it is observed," and I set it up so that there is a universe that exists once it is recognized.

He's mainly talking about how dimensions work in real life, then outright clarifies that the actual verse cosmology is more malleable than that. Even with the least generous interpretation possible, if the actual work contradicts an author statement, published material takes priority.

One thing I'll note though is that the arguments most relevant to a CRT should be presented in the original post, and aren't allowed to come strictly from off-site sources like blogs, so you should single out the 20-D scans and post them. I'm not sure about how our translation rules work, but you may potentially need that translation further verified by a translation helper.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think Simon has statements of transcending space itself in guidebooks (Idk if it qualifies tho)

It was done before the 20D thing however.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not sure about how our translation rules work, but you may potentially need that translation further verified by a translation helper.

Translations for Tier 1 upgrades tend to require raws, but otherwise they're only used if there's questionable translations or contradicting translations between sources.

For the thread the arguments for 20-D will have to be stated on the CRT itself and not linked to a blog, since that is a rule.

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1KT411R7JP/

Around the 41:00 mark.

This is the transcript that someone made.

戦力 プラス 納得 力 2つ の 力 を 20次元 に ねじ曲げ て 勝利 を 掴む ハゲ が 吠える 位 インフィニティ ビッグ モンスター な。 パワー だ。 宇宙 創 生 の 業火 に 焼か れ、 DNA の 1片 まで 完全 消滅 じゃ ない わ。 この ハゲ ヒゲ 胸毛 が どこ か で 聞い た よう な セリフ を 吐き おっ て だ が、 この 納得 力 は 半端 で は ない。 いけ ない。 この まま で は グレート グレンラガン が 焼き 尽くさ れる は。 上 の 野郎。 何 が 芽生 の 担任 だ。 大きな 口 ばかり 叩き や がっ て。

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

Nia enters the cockpit of Gurren Lagann with Simon.
Each Lagann merged into Gurren Lagann.
It was anger. It was sadness. It was compassion. It was every emotion one could think of.t was anger. It was sadness. It was compassion. It was every emotion one could think of.
The feelings that each of us had in our respective universes appeared in the form of a drill, breaking through the wall.
It was appearing in the form of two shapes and sizes, and they became one.
If you have no choice but to fight, do not hesitate.
We are not afraid to ask for power.
If there's a wall, we'll hit and break it, if there's no way, we'll make it with our own hands!
-No, more.
Breaks through cause, effect and fate, scream cry of life resounds in the galaxy!
-Still, more.
Engrave the feelings of a friend in this body, and turn infinite darkness into light!
-That's it.
Greater powerful than stars and galaxies.
Greater power than dimensions and time.

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

Translations for Tier 1 upgrades tend to require raws, but otherwise they're only used if there's questionable translations or contradicting translations between sources.

For the thread the arguments for 20-D will have to be stated on the CRT itself and not linked to a blog, since that is a rule.

Okay. I apologize since this is my first CRT.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Okay. I apologize since this is my first CRT.

They need to be in your opening post. So edit those in rather than in the comments.

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

They need to be in your opening post. So edit those in rather than in the comments.

Okay, I edited them in.

 

[Chronicplane]

Following.

If this gets accepted it would make Bill Cipher vs Simon The Digger a match which would be pretty sick to do.

 

[Hellformer]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/gurre...e-in-the-upgrade-that-believes-in-you.172106/

https://kirbonicpikminvs.blogspot.com/2024/08/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-cosmology.html?m=1


Here's the Drama CD:

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1KT411R7JP/

Around the 41:00 mark.

This is the transcript that someone made.

However, I urge anyone that knows Japanese to give it an actual listen.

This is from the Gurren Lagann novelization:

It's just one line but I believe it's important to point out anyway because it means main Simon scales to Avant Simon.

Basically, Otoko and Avant Simon are around 20-D at least thanks to the fourth Drama CD and the Simon from the TV series/movies would scale to that due to absorbing the entire multiversal labyrinth. By extension, the Anti-Spiral would also scale to this.

As such, I vote for changing their Tier from High 1-C to 1-B. Simple enough, right?


Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

Translation (source: chatgpt):

With the combined forces of combat power and persuasion power twisted into 20 dimensions, a bald guy roars, reaching Infinity Big Monster-level power.

Engulfed in the hellfire of universal creation, it's not just complete annihilation down to a fragment of DNA.

This bald, bearded, hairy-chested man is spouting lines that sound suspiciously familiar, but... the power of persuasion he has is no joke.

This is bad.

At this rate, even the Great Gurren Lagann will be burned to ashes!

Damn that guy.

What kind of "advisor to sprouts" is he supposed to be anyway?

All he ever does is talk big!

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

I edited in more stuff to the opening post. Mainly evidence on why main Simon would scale to the Otoko version of himself.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Agree.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I was in full support of 20-D in the previous thread, as I felt it doesn’t contradict anything, and I still agree with it.

If this gets accepted it would make Bill Cipher vs Simon The Digger a match which would be pretty sick to do.

Bill is only 13-D though so (Tenchi VS Simon would be sick though)

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

So which mods should be tagged and how many votes are needed for this to be accepted?

 

[Hellformer]

So which mods should be tagged and how many votes are needed for this to be accepted?

Share this thread with some knowledgeable mods like Firestorm, Qawsedf, DeagonX, etc.
You need 3 mod votes

 

[Iiliminal]

i agree with 1-B

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

Share this thread with some knowledgeable mods like Firestorm, Qawsedf, DeagonX, etc.
You need 3 mod votes

Thanks for the response.

@Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Qawsedf234

Any input?

 

[Ebihara]

Thanks for the response.

@Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Qawsedf234

Any input?

normal user pings dont do anything, they wont see it in alrets. you will need to post on there wall or pm them etc etc.

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

normal user pings dont do anything, they wont see it in alrets. you will need to post on there wall or pm them etc etc.

Oh, okay. I just posted a message on their walls. Thank you for the heads up.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

I agree with the thread no more Toaru gods > the verse cause of their cosmologie, only Alien X left

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think we'll need translation helpers to look at this.

 

[RitsuØ1]

Okay, I edited them in.

Did you use MTL by any chance? You need to ask the wiki translators.

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

This is a thread for requesting translations from foreign languages from other members of this community. However, take note that it has to be important for the purpose of figuring out proper statistics ratings, and similar issues relating to our work on improving the quality of this wiki...

vsbattles.com

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

Did you use MTL by any chance? You need to ask the wiki translators.

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

This is a thread for requesting translations from foreign languages from other members of this community. However, take note that it has to be important for the purpose of figuring out proper statistics ratings, and similar issues relating to our work on improving the quality of this wiki...

vsbattles.com

I did not use MTL, no. But sure, I'll ask for translations in that thread. Thank you for the link.

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

I sent a request to the Translation thread regarding the 20-D statement from the Drama CD, just for accuracy's sake.

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

Bump.

 

[Hellformer]

Did you get the translation?

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

Did you get the translation?

Not yet. I'm still waiting for a reply.

 

[AthelChan]

Looks like they gotta need that buffs against Kyle