2Flat2Land: Flatterland Cosmology

[Re5yh]

No, it’s not a good rating with less than satisfactory evidence to support it.

I also meant for Ultima's blog to be deleted, because it's preventing a page from being created

 

[Antvasima]

So does Low 1-A have sufficient support to apply for this revision?

 

[Antvasima]

All we need to do is to delete Ultima's Blog so we can create the profile:

The Mathiverse

vsbattles.fandom.com

@Ultima_Reality

Are you willing to revise your blog's contents to match our current tiering system?

 

[Re5yh]

So does Low 1-A have sufficient support to apply for this revision?

yes

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is somebody here willing to properly do so then please?

 

[AmogusSusfunni]

I've actually already made a sandbox for the Mathiverse. Is this fine?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I've actually already made a sandbox for the Mathiverse. Is this fine?

For “range” we typically say add the “versal” part. So it'd be “Low Outerversal.”

 

[kwelski]

Wouldn't Planiturth scale to high 1-A+? Planiturth is considered to be fundamentally different than the mathiverse with planiturth being 'Real' compared to the mathiverse. The mathiverse is a construct created in the minds of the planiturthians, and the statements that put the planiturth within the mathiverse seem to mostly be hypotheticals. The planiturth that exists within the mathiverse is called 'Spaceland' which functions as a replica of planiturth with the difference being that spaceland isnt real. The text is a real pain to make sense of but planiturth is pretty consistently represented as a realm seperate from the mathiverse. It might be worthwhile making a spreadsheet with all of the statements lol.

 

[Agnaa]

Wouldn't Planiturth scale to high 1-A+? Planiturth is considered to be fundamentally different than the mathiverse with planiturth being 'Real' compared to the mathiverse. The mathiverse is a construct created in the minds of the planiturthians, and the statements that put the planiturth within the mathiverse seem to mostly be hypotheticals. The planiturth that exists within the mathiverse is called 'Spaceland' which functions as a replica of planiturth with the difference being that spaceland isnt real. The text is a real pain to make sense of but planiturth is pretty consistently represented as a realm seperate from the mathiverse. It might be worthwhile making a spreadsheet with all of the statements lol.

No, that needs actual substance to be the case.

A lower-than 1-A thing cannot create a 1-A or above thing in any way, without help from a 1-A or above thing. That's the most core anti-feat in our new system.

SMT may avoid this by having some system of the verse which is superior to YHVH, and which references the thoughts of normal humans when deciding what to create.

Nothing like that has been established in Mathiverse, afaik. So if Planiturthians created the Mathiverse, yet are still a subset of it, then this cosmology cannot be 1-A or above.

 

[kwelski]

I dont think planiturth is actually inside of the mathiverse though. The planiturthians are able to change their position relating to mathiverse including whether or not they are in it. The mathiverse is something formed from the beliefs of the planiturthians so whether or not they even exist within the mathiverse is decided by the planiturthians. It is made clear multiple times that the only thing that is actually real is planiturth (because planiturth is meant to represent the real world). Planiturth is stated to have a different kind of reality than the mathiverse and its stated the mathiverse and planiturth universe themselves are different. The mathiverse doesnt actually affect the planiturth outside of the mathiverse, because the mathiverse's planiturth is just whatever the real planiturth's beliefs are regarding their own cosmology. The mathiverse exists in the thoughts of the planiturthians and the story is told from the perspective of those within the thoughts of the planiturthians. I can imagine an apple inside of my mind but that doesnt mean that apple is real, but from the perspective of a being who exists inside my mind, that apple is real.

Some of the statements regarding planiturth's and the mathiverse's relationship are vague and contradictory but it is very consistently stated that planiturth is real whereas the mathiverse isnt.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I dont think planiturth is actually inside of the mathiverse though. The planiturthians are able to change their position relating to mathiverse including whether or not they are in it. The mathiverse is something formed from the beliefs of the planiturthians so whether or not they even exist within the mathiverse is decided by the planiturthians. It is made clear multiple times that the only thing that is actually real is planiturth (because planiturth is meant to represent the real world). Planiturth is stated to have a different kind of reality than the mathiverse and its stated the mathiverse and planiturth universe themselves are different. The mathiverse doesnt actually affect the planiturth outside of the mathiverse, because the mathiverse's planiturth is just whatever the real planiturth's beliefs are regarding their own cosmology. The mathiverse exists in the thoughts of the planiturthians and the story is told from the perspective of those within the thoughts of the planiturthians. I can imagine an apple inside of my mind but that doesnt mean that apple is real, but from the perspective of a being who exists inside my mind, that apple is real.

Some of the statements regarding planiturth's and the mathiverse's relationship are vague and contradictory but it is very consistently stated that planiturth is real whereas the mathiverse isnt.

In any case, you just made a counterintuitive point about why Mathiverse would be High 1-A+. You can bolster that rating since the original intention was that Mathiverse was the space of all possibility, but you can't also have Planitruth also be above that unless you're trying to say it should be 0, but that's not what I inquired based on what you said.

 

[kwelski]

In any case, you just made a counterintuitive point about why Mathiverse would be High 1-A+. You can bolster that rating since the original intention was that Mathiverse was the space of all possibility, but you can't also have Planitruth also be above that unless you're trying to say it should be 0, but that's not what I inquired based on what you said.

Sorry if I wasn't being clear but I was never claiming that the mathiverse is High 1-A+, I was claiming that Planiturth is High 1-A+ and is above the mathiverse which is low 1-A.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Sorry if I wasn't being clear but I was never claiming that the mathiverse is High 1-A+, I was claiming that Planiturth is High 1-A+ and is above the mathiverse which is low 1-A.

How do you make that distinction? Yeah, there's no arbitrary rule saying High 1-A+ needs to jump like the other tiers. However, on what grounds is it High 1-A+? Is it some sort of all-possible space or something that a flying spaghetti monster cooked up?

 

[kwelski]

How do you make that distinction? Yeah, there's no arbitrary rule saying High 1-A+ needs to jump like the other tiers. However, on what grounds is it High 1-A+? Is it some sort of all-possible space or something that a flying spaghetti monster cooked up?

After double checking the requirements, you are right that i dont have grounds to prove Planiturth is High 1-A+, they would instead be 1-A+.

(Also im assuming that it is NLF to say that the planiturthians could give the Mathiverse a 1-A+ cosmology and use the fact that the mathiverse can never be real and thus cant reach realm of planiturth as proof that planiturth is High 1-A+.)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

After double checking the requirements, you are right that i dont have grounds to prove Planiturth is High 1-A+, they would instead be 1-A+.

(Also im assuming that it is NLF to say that the planiturthians could give the Mathiverse a 1-A+ cosmology and use the fact that the mathiverse can never be real and thus cant reach realm of planiturth as proof that planiturth is High 1-A+.)

What source of information dictates that it would be 1-A+?

 

[Antvasima]

All we need to do is to delete Ultima's Blog so we can create the profile:

The Mathiverse

vsbattles.fandom.com

Should we turn this into a regular explanation page instead, so other knowledgeable members here can update its contents to match the Low 1-A tier, or is that not necessary?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Should we turn this into a regular explanation page instead, so other knowledgeable members here can update its contents to match the Low 1-A tier, or is that not necessary?

Either-or works. Though, I assume just deleting that should work and we can bring out a new profile and explanation page for it would make more sense.

Ultima had already deleted his Divine Comedy profile for God without hesitation and he is very strict in non-updated/outdated pages. You can always ping him if need be.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we turn this into a regular explanation page instead, so other knowledgeable members here can update its contents to match the Low 1-A tier, or is that not necessary?

Either-or works. Though, I assume just deleting that should work and we can bring out a new profile and explanation page for it would make more sense.

Ultima had already deleted his Divine Comedy profile for God without hesitation and he is very strict in non-updated/outdated pages. You can always ping him if need be.

@Ultima_Reality

We still need your help here.

 

[kwelski]

What source of information dictates that they would be 1-A+?

"He pointed out that Planiturthians don’t possess a VUE. They can’t experience the Mathiverse directly, like I’m doing. But that, he said, is because they are real whereas I am a Virtual Unreality Construct. I got annoyed, but he says he’s one too."

"As I thought,’ said the Space Hopper. ‘The VUE can only show what it’s programmed to. It shows Virtual Unrealities, not Realities. It doesn’t know what shape the Planiturthian universe should be, so it can’t show us any detail. But there’s one thing it does know. Look at the smudge - what’s it doing?’"

Here it is stated that the Mathiverse is Unreality while planiturth is reality. There are a bunch of other examples of the distinction being made that the mathiverse is not real while planiturth is real.

"‘No,’ he said. ‘Their minds are all in It. Their brains are built from Planiturthian-universe matter, obeying Planiturthian-universe rules. Their minds are processes that go on inside their brains - and many of those processes are internal representations of that external universe. So, not surprisingly, Planiturthian minds construct - by the collective use of IMAGER - a Mathiverse that mimics the effects of those external rules pretty well. They don’t always get the rules right -for all they know there may not be any ultimate rules at all - but they keep tinkering, and slowly the correspondence between Mathiversian rules and observed reality becomes extraordinarily accurate.’ "

"In a sense, the Mathiverse is a creation of the combined mentality of the Intelligences of Planiturth. It is a Planiturthian mental construct. "

Here it is stated that the mathiverse was created in the minds of the planiturthians using IMAGER which was also made by the planiturthians. The mathiverse existing in the minds of the planiturthians is a qualitative superiority, and the mathiverse is low 1-A, which means planiturth meets the qualifications for tier 1-A+.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Here it is stated that the Mathiverse is Unreality while planiturth is reality. There are a bunch of other examples of the distinction being made that the mathiverse is not real while planiturth is real.

I'm mixed about these statements. I don't recall that being the best case of R>F. We can always infer the relationship of unreality and reality as corresponding to whose truer, not that one nature is completely fictional to the other.

Here it is stated that the mathiverse was created in the minds of the planiturthians using IMAGER which was also made by the planiturthians. The mathiverse existing in the minds of the planiturthians is a qualitative superiority, and the mathiverse is low 1-A, which means planiturth meets the qualifications for tier 1-A+.

The minds make up the Mathiverse and is contained within it, no? Not that the Mathiverse solely exists within their minds but the latter doesn't make any sense in how it is worded. It's like humans giving substance to the framework of the Universe and gods by believing in them as part of their collective unconscious or mental construct but that in no way infers QS unless that whole mental construct is an illsuion and the Mathiverse was never real to them.

Either way, that doesn't explain 1-A+.

 

[kwelski]

Its 3:15 in the morning so ill make an actual response tomorrow, but I will say that I dont know how something existing purely as a construct of the mind doesn't imply that those imagining it aren't inherently above it in a qualitative way. Could you explain your reasoning on why you dont think it qualifies?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Its 3:15 in the morning so ill make an actual response tomorrow, but I will say that I dont know how something existing purely as a construct of the mind doesn't imply that those imagining it aren't inherently above it in a qualitative way. Could you explain your reasoning on why you dont think it qualifies?

They both are referential to each other. While, I don't see them seeing the Mathiverse as complete fictional or in this case their “mental construct” to invoke R>F. I see it as more as they give the Mathiverse some form of shape because their thoughts are heavily reflected upon the Mathiverse, but they also are contained within the Mathiverse in their individual universes.

I see the Mathiverse as wholly the entire thing, but their ideas shape and change the Mathiverse. In any case, I see it more as Low 1-C for them and Low 1-A for the Mathiverse.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Should we turn this into a regular explanation page instead, so other knowledgeable members here can update its contents to match the Low 1-A tier, or is that not necessary?

I deleted the blog while I was at it.

 

[Antvasima]

I deleted the blog while I was at it.

@Ultima_Reality

Okay. And are you fine with Low 1-A tiering?

 

[kwelski]

Putting aside the discussion on whether realness implies superiority, I do think that we were too quick to decide that the mathiverse is capped at low 1-A. The primary argument opposing a 1-A or higher scaling for the mathiverse is this antifeat pointed out by Agnaa:

No, that needs actual substance to be the case.

A lower-than 1-A thing cannot create a 1-A or above thing in any way, without help from a 1-A or above thing. That's the most core anti-feat in our new system.

SMT may avoid this by having some system of the verse which is superior to YHVH, and which references the thoughts of normal humans when deciding what to create.

Nothing like that has been established in Mathiverse, afaik. So if Planiturthians created the Mathiverse, yet are still a subset of it, then this cosmology cannot be 1-A or above.

This antifeat hinges on the notion that planiturth is within the mathiverse but I believe that not to be the case. I instead believe that the planiturth within the mathiverse is not actually planiturth, but instead a recreation of it.

I compiled some evidence from the book in this Google Doc.
Not all of the evidence is as strong as others but overall i feel they prove my claims. There are a lot of other quotes in the book that could support my claims but many of them require context (as do many of the quotes that I did include lol). Its sort of hard to provide evidence for this book without just posting the full text and even then the text is like word spaghetti (it is even noted by the MC that she hardly gets clear answers to her questions with space hopper opting to instead let her piece together the info herself).

The only other arguments that have been made against a 1-A or higher scaling so far are just about interperetations over the paragraph that explains the cosmology of the mathiverse. I would like to hopefully reopen discussion on that front.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The only other arguments that have been made against a 1-A or higher scaling so far are just about interperetations over the paragraph that explains the cosmology of the mathiverse. I would like to hopefully reopen discussion on that front.

I've reread stuff in the blog since your formatting in that Google Docs was quite bad. So, from what I've read, they are in “Mathiverse.” The kick is that everything in the Mathiverse is a reflection of their mental construct which changes the Mathiverse entirely hence why they’re not bound to the nature of things within the Mathiverse “despite” being in the Mathiverse. This doesn't contradict anything because Mathiverse is the collection of all spaces and constructs they can believe up which consistently changes and adds to the Mathiverse that reflects off their mental construct.

So, my conclusion is that they can affect Low 1-A space ie Mathiverse but they are in no way totally outside of it in terms of their being nor their existence which is grounded within the Mathiverse as is everything. So, all I can say is they could receive High 1-B or Low 1-A via hax ie mental power to change things. Their grounded nature is very unclear since you can argue about their dimesionality because in some statements they're part of a Mathiverse nature being the accumulation of all mathematical space, but they can believe themselves not to be a part of mathematics. So I think some proxy hax can be placed but I doubt they're infinite in their dimensionality nor Low 1-A without bypassing things with their hax.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Before you say anything about the hax portion. The only ground on which they can exist as 1-A purely is if the hax totally bypasses the logic that “Mathiverse is the collection of all the mathematical space” in that they believe them to be truly ontologically superior. However, this has some logical incoherence of how something non-1-A can boost itself to a non-existent source that's not 1-A, and the argumentation because they can just “hax” it is simply not logical or coherent.

No, don't bring up “that means they created an impossible world thus they're High 1-A+!” shenanigan here.

 

[kwelski]

I've reread stuff in the blog since your formatting in that Google Docs was quite bad. So, from what I've read, they are in “Mathiverse.” The kick is that everything in the Mathiverse is a reflection of their mental construct which changes the Mathiverse entirely hence why they’re not bound to the nature of things within the Mathiverse “despite” being in the Mathiverse. This doesn't contradict anything because Mathiverse is the collection of all spaces and constructs they can believe up which consistently changes and adds to the Mathiverse that reflects off their mental construct.

So, my conclusion is that they can affect Low 1-A space ie Mathiverse but they are in no way totally outside of it in terms of their being nor their existence which is grounded within the Mathiverse as is everything. So, all I can say is they could receive High 1-B or Low 1-A via hax ie mental power to change things. Their grounded nature is very unclear since you can argue about their dimesionality because in some statements they're part of a Mathiverse nature being the accumulation of all mathematical space, but they can believe themselves not to be a part of mathematics. So I think some proxy hax can be placed but I doubt they're infinite in their dimensionality nor Low 1-A without bypassing things with their hax.

Sorry my formatting in the google doc wasn't great but I do think I should note that I included quotes in the google doc that were not included in the blog as I took them from the book itself. I'll go into detail on each quote I feel is relavent and ill say why I believe it supports my claim.

My fundamental claim is that the planiturth within the mathiverse is not the real planiturth, but is instead a copy of the planiturth that is unreal.
First of all, it is stated multiple times that planiturth arent really in the mathiverse (Page 40 & 41)

Even philosophers (a special breed of the creatures that live on
Planiturth, generically known as Peoples) do not doubt that Planiturth is
intimately associated with the Mathiverse - of it but not in it

The Planiturthians are unique among the creatures of (but perhaps not
in) the Mathiverse in that they are not sure which Space (or Time, or
Spacetime, or...) they really belong to.

These statements are not the only evidence for the planiturth not being inside of the mathiverse.

It is stated that the VUE (virtual unreality engine) can only display things that are not real. (Page 267)

‘As I thought,’ said the Space Hopper. ‘The VUE can only show what
it’s programmed to. It shows Virtual Unrealities, not Realities. It doesn’t
know what shape the Planiturthian universe should be, so it can’t show us
any detail.

This statement is contradicted a few pages later when they use the VUE to go to the planiturth universe. (Page 274)

Vikki was getting better at adapting to sudden shifts of VUEpoint, and
the dizziness lasted only an instant. ‘Is that the Planiturthian universe,
Hopper?’
‘Yes.’

This can only be explained if the planiturthian universe they visited was not the real planiturthian universe but instead an unreal version. This is confirmed by the earlier statement refering to what they were seeing as a simulation. (Page 272)

And space is contracting, you
said? Shouldn’t we get out before there isn’t enough room for us to fit
inside?’
‘We’re only “in” in Virtual Unreality,’ said the Space Hopper, unruffled.
‘We can exit the simulation before the universe gets too cramped.

There is also precendent for the characters refering to something as planiturth or planiturthian when in reality it wasnt. (Page 40 & Page 200)

The Space Hopper says that even Spacelanders (well, actually he called
them ‘Planiturthians’, he says there’s a subtle distinction but he refused to
talk about it until later) don’t actually have a very good feel for 3D

old Albert managed to confuse Planiturth
with a Mathiversian Construct. No surprise, then, to find that Spaceland was
the Mathiversian Construct that was believed to be a valid geometry for
REAL Planiturthian space in the days when Albert visited what he was
TOLD was Spaceland.

If this is not enough to prove that planiturth exists outside of the mathiverse then I dont think it can be proven with just the book. However I think that the mathiverse still scales above low 1-A+ even if the planiturth is within the mathiverse. The first argument (and in my opinion the flimsiest) is the argument that the planiturthians are 1-A by transcending fiction. the evidence for this is:

The readers are refered to as planiturthians (Page 14)

when she noticed a tattered book. (More properly, it should
be described as a scroll, for on Flatland books are written on lines, not flat
sheets, in a kind of Morse code; and the way to store a line compactly is to
roll it into a spiral... I can’t keep explaining this kind of thing to you, my
Planiturthian readers. So if I use a Planiturthian term that seems not to make
sense, for instance, having Vikki - who is a line, for heaven’s sake -pick
something up or carry something, you’ll just have to assume that there is
some Flatland equivalent.)

If you take this alongside the fact that the planiturth is constantly and consistently referred to as real whereas everything else in the mathverse is referred to as unreal you can argue that the planiturth transcends fiction and thus scales to 1-A. Personally, I'm not a big fan of this argument due to the ambiguous nature of how being real/unreal affects your scaling in the Flatterland verse.

To make my second argument, I wanted to look back at the page that explains the cosmology of the mathiverse. (Page 39)

What is the Mathiverses
The Mathiverse transcends Time and Space ... it transcends Intelligence
and Extelligence... it transcends Thought; it transcends Transcendence
itself. Within it - and ‘within’ is definitely the wrong word, for concepts
such as ‘inside’ and ‘outside’ apply to individual Spaces, not to the
unfathomable reaches of the Mathiverse - are not just all Spaces and Times
that have existed, or all Spaces and Times that will exist, or even all Spaces
and Times that could exist. It also contains (wrong word, again) all Spaces
and Times that could not exist, if only as a grim warning of the dangers of
the nonexistent.
The Mathiverse contains all numbers.
The Mathiverse contains all shapes.
The Mathiverse contains all geometries.
The Mathiverse contains all vectors, matrices, permutations,
combinations, integrations, separations, projections, injections, surjections,
bijections, semigroups, transformations, relations, functions, functors,
functionals, algebraic group schemes, super-manifolds, /C-theories, M-
theories, M-sets, power sets, subsets, supersets, and plain, ordinary,
common-or-garden sets.
The Mathiverse contains all data structures.
The Mathiverse contains all processes.
The Mathiverse contains all formal descriptions of logical structures.
The Mathiverse contains all informal descriptions of illogical structures.
If one day somebody managed to invent a new kind of thing, one that
wasn’t a Space and wasn’t a Time but somehow belonged in the same
category (and, now that you mention it, the Mathiverse contains all
categories)... anyway, if somebody did what I’ve just said, then whatever
they came up with would have been present in the Mathiverse all along.
(Except, as you’ve guessed, ‘would’, ‘have’, ‘been’, ‘present’, and ‘in’ are
the wrong words, and so are ‘all’ and ‘along’. We can probably accept ‘the’,
though.)

Now this page was for the most part disregarded in scaling the mathiverse because of the fact that:

if Planiturthians created the Mathiverse, yet are still a subset of it, then this cosmology cannot be 1-A or above.

I dont actually think that it matters that the planiturthians are the ones who originally created the mathiverse because of this statement:

If one day somebody managed to invent a new kind of thing, one that
wasn’t a Space and wasn’t a Time but somehow belonged in the same
category (and, now that you mention it, the Mathiverse contains all
categories)... anyway, if somebody did what I’ve just said, then whatever
they came up with would have been present in the Mathiverse all along.

This implies that everything in the mathiverse has always been in the mathiverse and since the mathiverse transcends time, the fact that the planiturthians created the mathiverse doesnt matter because the mathiverse would have always existed. If this is the case then it invalidates the antifeat of the mathiverse being created by the planiturthians and lets us use page 39 to scale the mathiverse above low 1-A+. If page 39 can be used then the statement of the mathiverse transcending transcendence itself can be used to scale to High 1-A+ since transcendence would imply being above the low 1-A+ verses within the mathiverse which is a 1-A feat and transcending it again would be high 1-A+ feat. This isnt the only argument in favor of high 1-A+ but it is the simplest.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yeah…….no.

 

[kwelski]

Yeah…….no.

That isn't an argument.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

That isn't an argument.

Your arguments weren't new. High 1-A+ was already discussed and it hardly had any basis. So Low 1-A is being proposed on a more clear and reasonable grounds.

None of what you said in your Google Docs matters to distinguish anything to establish 1-A. At best, what I offer is Low 1-A to both the Mathiverse and Planitruth with the latter being a stretch.

 

[AmogusSusfunni]

Bump.

 

[kwelski]

Bump.

Been busy, be posting an argument soonish.

 

[Aztro_The_Bored_One]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Goofy's arguments above seemed to make sense. Is somebody willing to apply a Low 1-A tiering for the Mathiverse, if it does not have it already, please?

 

[AmogusSusfunni]

There's no mathiverse profiles currently, so I'll just post this one

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine to me at least.