MASSIVE SPIDER-MAN DOWNGRADE TO END ALL DOWNGRADES

[Arkenis]

Weaknesses: Spider-Sense is extremely inconsistent, and often enough wouldn't be enough to mitigate all attacks heading towards Spider-Man's way, or any at all.

• Spider-Sense Disruption: Spider-Man's Spider Sense can lose its effectiveness if it is blocked or temporarily weakened by specialized equipment or certain drugs. It also would not trigger if it detects something that is not registered as a threat like the Spider-Man clones or the Venom symbiote and its offspring and Anti-Venom. When deprived of his spider-sense, Spider-Man becomes vulnerable to surveillance and attack, and web-slinging requires most of his concentration.

Idk how I feel about putting standard weaknesses as weaknesses. Most people's senses lose effectiveness when they're blocked or weakened, that's just how that works. And it doesn't trigger if it doesn't register a threat; give an example for something that isn't in Marvel.

 

[The_Impress]

Idk how I feel about putting standard weaknesses as weaknesses. Most people's senses lose effectiveness when they're blocked or weakened, that's just how that works. And it doesn't trigger if it doesn't register a threat; give an example for something that isn't in Marvel.

Oh the disruption thing has been on there since forever, I didn't add it, I only added the italicized part. That's not a part of this thread

 

[Arkenis]

That should probably be removed, but bigger point: this stuff should be made into a blog to show the consistency and inconsistency of SS. Right now all I've seen is two people arguing over wanting to wank ss and not wanting to wank it lol.

 

[The_Impress]

That should probably be removed, but bigger point: this stuff should be made into a blog to show the consistency and inconsistency of SS.

...do you need that? Like, isn't it just, horrifically obvious to the point of parody.

I mean I can make a blog, sure, but dunno, the notion's akin to making a blog for Superman: It's just something that happens in damn near every appearance, Spider-Man getting tagged by a comparable or slower character through ambush or just, not dodging anything.

I am not like, exaggerating, picking a random issue, let's go Spencer run, issue 13

Gets yeeted, caught and tossed around by some random giant robot midway through the fight, who he was outspeeding earlier.

Another issue, let's go Wells run, issue 44

Gets zapped in the back by a casual Nefaria, this is also Nefaria in a new key that isn't as up there in speed as his classic incarnation is (his file is EXTREMELY outdated)

Let's go classic TASM, RNG generator gave issue 189

Gets yeeted by Man-Wolf, and keep in mind this is a Marv Wolfman run, and Wolfman probably used Spider-Sense the most out of any writer

RCO died after this point

But yeah just, it isn't this infallible thing, people in thread that I know have read a single Spider-Man story, know it isn't this infallible god tier precog amp, it ***** up at one point or another. I'm not saying it's useless entirely, it does contribute to his dodges depending on the writer, but it isn't this... weirdass stomp factor.

 

[Arkenis]

...do you need that? Like, isn't it just, horrifically obvious to the point of parody.

Need isn't the issue, it's more about the convenience for it as we just saw you two argue about scans. And more to the fact that not everyone reads spiderman comics so it's best to have examples laid out properly to showcase what you want accepted on page.

I mean I can make a blog, sure, but dunno, the notion's akin to making a blog for Superman: It's just something that happens in damn near every appearance, Spider-Man getting tagged by a comparable or slower character through ambush or just, not dodging anything.

I get that, but reading through this thread seems like people aren't too familiar with the extent of the inconsistency and going by how people argue for it, seems a lot of people don't understand how inconsistent ss is.

 

[The_Impress]

people aren't too familiar with the extent of the inconsistency and going by how people argue for it, seems a lot of people don't understand how inconsistent ss is.

I mean I'd say, no offense, you aren't familiar still.

What if I was lying and cherrypicked owO

---

But yeah I genuinely don't think people who haven't engaged with Marvel can argue consistency here, no offense and this initially (without taking Saman's considerations) a solely consistency based argument :V

There are many revisions where you can input without knowing the verse, I don't think this is one of them.

 

[Baken384]

While I understand the sentiment of this statement right here and see its purpose for how we can apply Spider-Man's Spider Sense in a fair manner to prevent insane wank.

"Bro you can't even touch Spider-Man, he'll precog-no-jutsu you to death in 5 million different ways and his spider-sense will ROFLSTOMP your character"

I feel like the wording such as this:

Weaknesses: Spider-Sense is extremely inconsistent, and often enough wouldn't be enough to mitigate all attacks heading towards Spider-Man's way, or any at all.

This needs to be changed. How i personally read this statement is Spider-Man's Spider Sense is so inconsistent that it doesn't help him in his fighting capabilities. Spider-Man's Spider-Sense has and always been been part of his core toolkit and frequently uses it during combat.
Spider-Man instinctually avoid stuff in tandem with his Spider Reflexes.

We have Guidebooks telling us this, stuff like Spider-Sense allows Spider-Man instinctually react to trouble, allowing him to weave through bullets very easily.

One may think there's countless of instances of Spider-Man getting hit, but I assure you there's also a lot of scans out there that showcases Spider-Man being able to dodge things all thanks to his Spider-Sense (1,2,3). There's probably more out there but im too lazy to find.

But the point is, there has to be some middle ground because while yes to say Spider-Sense can be inconsistent, him being able to dodge attacks due to his Spider-Sense is part of his character altogether, it reminds me of that one time Spider-Man was shocked that he was dodging shit without Spider-Sense.

I'm thinking of a weakness such as Spider-Man's Spider-Sense based on a few scans
Spider-Sense Weaknesses: Peter's Spider-Sense doesn't always know the nature of the attacks his Spider-Sense detects and is only effective in tandem with his Speed.

We can change the wording however to make it phrase better. This reminds me of something like the Sharingan from Naruto, while they are able to predict shit quite well, if their physical bodies can't keep up (like their speed), they will still struggle even with their busted analytical prediction. Same goes for Spider-Man as well, his Spider-Sense goes hand in hand with his Reflexes, one trait is struggling without the other.

 

[Chariot190]

I do wanna say, for a massive encompassing CRT like this, there's definitely a lack of actual substantial proof, one or even 50 examples in the long run don't quite mean much in regards to actual consistency.
I know damn well it isnt "nonexistent" or "doesnt exist 90% of the time", I vehemently disagree with that wording, it's just objectively wrong. So whats the actual ratio at play?

And are the cases always actual spidey sense not kicking in? Or does there exist contextual evidence that might explain it?

Obviously there will be times he gets hit by stupid shit, of course there will be, comics be comics. But to what degree? Relative to it enabling him to avoid or precog stuff? And from there, times it activated but he failed to dodge for some reason isnt it not existing, like it still activated, he just failed due to reasons outside of it.

Like matter of the fact is, this CRT is grossly lacking in actual evidence. A few examples is no better than what this wants to overturn. An example of it failing can be met with it working, and we're back at square one. Egregious examples can be met with the best examples. Goes both ways.

From what I know, which, is, in fact, quite a bit (I've read most shit up to mid 2000s).

Just to go over a few things we must consider.

1. Spidey sense is a passive factor, "it doesn't exist" or it not always being in play is explicitly wrong, this isn't up for debate, that's just how it works. So right off the bat the proposal needs to be reworded, it's always active, it's stated to be many times. While there exists time it might not seem to have been active or isn't said to be, that ultimately doesn't matter. You don't need to mention it everytime, and given the many examples and even hard statements of it being always active, the actual narrative, powerkit and a good chunk of feats outweigh however many stray examples of it seemingly not being there that exist.

2. You're right in that it isn't infallible, but why does it fail at times?
We have to examine every instance. Things that can enable him to be hit can vary.

If it is simply to fast for him to dodge, it doesn't matter if he knew it was coming if he can't physically move in time. This isn't spidey sense's fault, but his own speed. You can still know something is coming and fail to dodge it, but for the OP's proposal, this is framed as being a failure on spidey sense's end.

Quantity also matters, he still occupies a 3D space, he can't dodge some things if they're coming from all over and his volume physically can not move out of the way without intercepting the path of one of the many attacks. This isn't spidey sense's fault, this is just, well basic spatial reasoning. Like even if he knows the direction every attack is coming from, if he physically can't dodge without hitting something else, that isn't spidey sense's fault.

The characters in question just straight up outplay spidey sense, there's been cases where he knew shit was coming but just got outplayed, that isn't exactly a anti-feat for spidey sense but a feat for the other character in these cases. While not common, it's still a thing that chops off a few of the anti-feats that might exist.

Maybe the character in question is just immune to spidey sense, while the OP pokes fun at this, this is actually the case for some characters, most notably the symbiotes or some characters have their own advantages that mitigate his like enhanced senses.

Lastly some cases are in fact PIS outlier yap, like a common thug tagging spidey (this should literally never happen going by just literal hundreds of examples on the contrary, coupled with hard statements of him saying thugs ain't shit to spidey sense. Because that's ALSO a factor for some of the anti-feats, in that they're the opposite extreme except arguably worse given direct statements saying how bullshit it'd be.

And then the final examples of just, it failing because it just failed, not much more to it than that, it's these that the OP should be looking for, and then arguing these outweigh the otherwise.

And as briefly mentioned above, lack of a mention of it being a thing doesn't mean it isn't happening. You don't mention things you write to be a fundamental feature every time. Like for example, a Stand is invisible, you don't need to say this every time, it's just assumed because it's already been explained.
If we're told spidey sense is always active, and spidey is doing cool flips and dodging shit, we can probably infer spidey sense is being utilized to some degree, especially when coupled with the stories where he loses it and it's framed as something he was constantly using even when not making note of it.

3. Once we actually have a batch of fair, and most of all, consistent, showings of spidey sense, do we only then implement it based on that, writing out how it works in general combat. And mind you, 10, **** even 100 examples ain't gonna be enough, like sucks to suck but 70 years of this slop, sometimes multiple times an issue, even 100 won't be any meaningful amount of the goal is to be consistent and index things properly, like yeah it's a hassle but that's comics for you, better to do it right than half ass it.

For the record, I'm fine with not treating it as this infallible thing, because it isn't, there's ways to get around it and it's still limited to his own physicality, but the OP goes in the opposite extreme. Extreme downplay is just as bad as extreme inflation. I'm with Baken here, there's weaknesses to add, but pretending it isn't a thing half the time is just nuh uh.

 

[Hellbeast]

I've always seen spider sense as danger sense, meaning even if he knows danger is coming he doesn't know exactly from where or when... Making it act more like analytical predictions from what I know

This is basically how I took it too, he has a sensation but still needs to know where the threat is

As for the thread

I think noting it as a weakness is fine, especially when Zark gets some more scans to help prove her point but idk about removing all the matches as a blanket statement unless they get redone

 

[The_Impress]

If it is simply to fast for him to dodge, it doesn't matter if he knew it was coming if he can't physically move in time. This isn't spidey sense's fault, but his own speed. You can still know something is coming and fail to dodge it, but for the OP's proposal, this is framed as being a failure on spidey sense's end.

Quantity also matters, he still occupies a 3D space, he can't dodge some things if they're coming from all over and his volume physically can not move out of the way without intercepting the path of one of the many attacks. This isn't spidey sense's fault, this is just, well basic spatial reasoning. Like even if he knows the direction every attack is coming from, if he physically can't dodge without hitting something else, that isn't spidey sense's fault.

The characters in question just straight up outplay spidey sense, there's been cases where he knew shit was coming but just got outplayed, that isn't exactly a anti-feat for spidey sense but a feat for the other character in these cases. While not common, it's still a thing that chops off a few of the anti-feats that might exist.

All of these don't really... invalidate a vast majority of feats, imo, because if we go by higher assumptions of his Spider-Sense and Acrobatics (as taken in vs. debates), there is barely anything that should fall under these cases:

• The scan we use on the file states that he is alerted at a point where there is "plenty of time" to avoid an attack. So honestly, if we go by that he avoids an attack very well BEFORE it is even launched, this should null alot of higher speed attacks. Profile also gives scans of "Can vaguely sense how many people are coming, how fast, and how close they are" which makes it so Spider-Man has never been surprised ever.
• The profile also states "His Spider Sense slows action down to a crawl and says it allows him to think of jokes for what feels like hours" (the scan is down but pretty easy to track I'd imagine), and Spider-Man is ******* amazing in both Acrobatics and Martial Arts, former to almost a contortionist degree, so I think the only cases where this works is insane large-projectile danmaku feats, which... I guess only work for Dr. Octopus AT BEST?
• The amount of characters that outplay Spider-Sense, I think the major ones I can count on my hands. That's barely a factor.
• This is also completely ignorant of the more apeshit elements of Spider-Sense as said before, like the aforementioned morality sensing, which if we counted then almost every time Spidey gets punked, that's an outlier.

So yeah the two options are, we can either remove enough scans from the Spider-Sense's capabilties for being outlier showcase, that it can reach your definition, or we accept Spider-Sense has inconsistent showcase. Not much beyond that.

And mind you, 10, **** even 100 examples ain't gonna be enough, like sucks to suck but 70 years of this slop, sometimes multiple times an issue, even 100 won't be any meaningful amount of the goal is to be consistent and index things properly, like yeah it's a hassle but that's comics for you, better to do it right than half ass it.

I'm sorry but I know 100% where this insane shit got added onto the file, and it was added in as a part of a larger revision where it was BARELY IF AT ALL justified and talked about, and then after that point it got used to wank the shit out of the character, this kinda crap wasn't ON THE FILE to begin with.

I can revoke a prior revision's nonsensical assumptions without needing to painstakingly collect a billion feats to satisfy their opinions, that is NOT AT ALL practical or even necessary, this is something that can be argued as a consistency argument, SOMETHING THE PRIOR REVISION UTILIZED to get this shit added in the first place.

By this very logic I could argue why the absolute **** was this thing accepted in the first place when every single issue ever contradicts it, the original revision-maker didn't make a 20k scan doc invalidating every single scan that came before it. How was Marvel tiering changed from 3-C to 1-A? The original thread for it wasn't including 10k scans of every Thor lower end feat getting debunked. How was Spidey's consistency assumed to be High 8-C? The threads didn't debunk every wall level limiting feat. And I can go on and on for every versewide revision.

We don't do things like that, we assume a supporterbase knows and can judge a consistency by themselves, otherwise there wouldn't BE pages for Marvel. Sucks to suck but 70 years of "this slop", for a hobby site, we have always done shortcuts like this. If anything I have reduced shortcutting like this for non-mainline characters, but still most if not all mainline characters are made through this guesswork because it's the best we can do for unpaid labour lol.

---

I will admit the OP is abit exaggerated, but yeah as long as this weird illusion of "Spider-Man is invulnerable to getting hit" is removed I am down for any solution, and also willing to debate it.

 

[The_Impress]

This is basically how I took it too, he has a sensation but still needs to know where the threat is

As for the thread

I think noting it as a weakness is fine, especially when Zark gets some more scans to help prove her point but idk about removing all the matches as a blanket statement unless they get redone

A large part of the issue again, is that we're assuming the BEST POSSIBLE ACTIVATION CONSISTENCY for Spider-Sense, as well as the BEST POSSIBLE SHOWCASE for it, giving it ******* insane feats, If it was JUST the boost to dodging, I'd be like less invested.

Like, something's gotta give lol.

 

[Robo432343]

A large part of the issue again, is that we're assuming the BEST POSSIBLE ACTIVATION CONSISTENCY for Spider-Sense, as well as the BEST POSSIBLE SHOWCASE for it, giving it ******* insane feats, If it was JUST the boost to dodging, I'd be like less invested.

isn't that what we're supposed to do...

 

[The_Impress]

isn't that what we're supposed to do...

Not really, if it's just not consistent :V

 

[Chariot190]

All of these don't really... invalidate a vast majority of feats, imo, because if we go by higher assumptions of his Spider-Sense and Acrobatics (as taken in vs. debates), there is barely anything that should fall under these cases:

I really don't care, you want to change shit, that is fine, but do it right.

I never said higher assumption is ok either, I'm fine with whatever ends up being consistent, fair.
But that isn't what's being proposed, you're going the opposite extreme, which is just as bad. Yes the profile has unconventional high ends, but unconventional high ends do not justify ignoring potential context or what's actually happening at times to use them as alleged anti-feats.

• The scan we use on the file states that he is alerted at a point where there is "plenty of time" to avoid an attack. So honestly, if we go by that he avoids an attack very well BEFORE it is even launched, this should null alot of higher speed attacks. Profile also gives scans of "Can vaguely sense how many people are coming, how fast, and how close they are" which makes it so Spider-Man has never been surprised ever.

I really don't care, you want to change shit, that is fine, but do it right.
And that's relative, plenty of time for an attack exponentially slower than him, is not the same as a lot of time for an attack equal to him in speed, if not quicker.

This is just arguing "profile says bad thing" as an excuse to not make the effort to actually dissect the showings properly.

• The profile also states "His Spider Sense slows action down to a crawl and says it allows him to think of jokes for what feels like hours" (the scan is down but pretty easy to track I'd imagine), and Spider-Man is ******* amazing in both Acrobatics and Martial Arts, former to almost a contortionist degree, so I think the only cases where this works is insane large-projectile danmaku feats, which... I guess only work for Dr. Octopus AT BEST?

I really don't care, you want to change shit, that is fine, but do it right.
Also no I can think of a few examples where he's actively using spidey sense, dodging stuff, but the degree of shrapnel and debris from explosions graze him as just one example.

It isn't an excuse for every instance, but it does explain quite a few that exist, whether or no you would end up using some of the examples I'm thinking of, I wouldn't know, given you haven't really given many examples to encompass a majority to begin with.

But yes, danmaku would be an example of something he might fail at, or maybe it isn't danmaku and the things in question are to large relative to their velocity. Like say, 4 boulders, he could dodge one, two even, but if there's 3 or 4 coming from each direction that cuts off any chance at escape due to simply not having the room to avoid or slip through, dude's kinda ****** either way.

Yes he's a contortionist, but good schmovement doesn't mean he's like liquid. There's still a limit.

• The amount of characters that outplay Spider-Sense, I think the major ones I can count on my hands. That's barely a factor.

Then count them. And then subtract them from the alleged anti-feat totals? And "major ones" isn't "all".

• This is also completely ignorant of the more apeshit elements of Spider-Sense as said before, like the aforementioned morality sensing, which if we counted then almost every time Spidey gets punked, that's an outlier.

I don't care? Your CRT is proposing to basically pretend it doesn't exist half the time because he's been hit at times.

You can argue an specific instance is unconventional, so uncommon that it should never be brought up outside of the exact same conditions, or anything else, but that isn't what your CRT proposes. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So yeah the two options are, we can either remove enough scans from the Spider-Sense's capabilties for being outlier showcase, that it can reach your definition, or we accept Spider-Sense has inconsistent showcase. Not much beyond that.

Secret 3rd option is to actually just overhaul it and use what it's consistently shown and depicted as.

Why are the only options "remove" or "literally pretend"? I thought you wanted to index the character in question properly, not some imaginary iteration of them, that was your reason given for making the CRT on page one?
And mind you, sometimes multiple of these caveats can co-exist, so it isn't just a one or the other deal either.

Also my definition.... Is literally the definition you gave

I'm sorry but I know 100% where this insane shit got added onto the file, and it was added in as a part of a larger revision where it was BARELY IF AT ALL justified and talked about, and then after that point it got used to wank the shit out of the character, this kinda crap wasn't ON THE FILE to begin with.

I thought you wanted to "fix" spidey sense? It sounds more like you just don't like that CRT or these specific feats.

Old CRT being bad doesn't mean this one should be either.
Two wrongs don't make a right. If we want to fix it, we should actually fix it. Not do an equally rushed CRT. Idc if this takes months or even a year to accomplish, better to make sure it's all consistent, sorted out, etc, then do the very thing you just complained about.

Why are you using things you acknowledge to be bad and don't like, to justify your own lack of effort into the CRT? What you proposed wasn't just wanting to remove a high end feat one-off, you're proposing how we treat it entirely, but even further, to ignore a bunch of other things by association, that by virtue of the scale of your proposal, requires substantial evidence and justification.

I can revoke a prior revision's nonsensical assumptions without needing to painstakingly collect a billion feats to satisfy their opinions, that is NOT AT ALL practical or even necessary, this is something that can be argued as a consistency argument, SOMETHING THE PRIOR REVISION UTILIZED to get this shit added in the first place.

Opinions? What about just to index the character properly as per wiki's purpose? Like I know it's a pain in the ass, trust me I know, but kinda comes with trying to sort out an ability with 70 years of feats and arguing an extreme in regards to it.

Do it right, don't halfass it, otherwise you're no better. Take your time, nobody is rushing you, people can be patient, but throwing a few scans and going lmao anti-feats and expecting that to outweigh what's on the profile is already suspect, it's just a few examples vs a few examples after all.

And that's me agreeing with you btw, the high ends aren't his standard, they probably shouldn't be treated as the usual, but statistically, your proposal is lacking evidence given the character and scope we're discussing.

It is practical, and it is necessary, you want to make a CRT on a integral part of a character's kit with quite literally thousands upon thousands of examples, but not just "hey this an outlier, we should ignore it" but "hey ignore spidey sense 90% of the time".
Our goal is consistency, to actually index the character as they should be, you said this yourself on the previous page. So why are you exempt from that? Practice what you preach. We should index what Spidey sense actually is, what it enables on the average, not lowball it with stray anti-feats, nor use the highest ends either.

No prior CRT being halfassed isn't an excuse. I didn't make it, I wasn't apart of it. But I am apart of this one, and given your complaining about it, I would expect you to not fall into that same trap.

By this very logic I could argue why the absolute **** was this thing accepted in the first place when every single issue ever contradicts it, the original revision-maker didn't make a 20k scan doc invalidating every single scan that came before it. How was Marvel tiering changed from 3-C to 1-A? The original thread for it wasn't including 10k scans of every Thor lower end feat getting debunked. How was Spidey's consistency assumed to be High 8-C? The threads didn't debunk every wall level limiting feat. And I can go on and on for every versewide revision.

I don't care. Do it right. Don't be a hypocrite. I agree with you, it shouldn't have been without proper discussion. So, now we are, what's the problem?

Our goal is to index stuff properly, you conveyed those same aspirations, if it is flawed, which it seemingly is, let's actually fix it and index stuff in a good way, not repeat the same mistake.

Also not the person to be yapping about this too. Given I'm not them, and I very much do gather every feat and showing of a character for featboxes. Currently doing so with Robot and two different Batmen even. If i were to ever do so for a spiderman character, I would do so too, because that's simply what is required when dealing with things as messy as comics.

If you don't like those things like Thor and Spidey, as it seems to be case, gather what you think is a consistent throughline of feats, crosscheck with high and lower feats to see if context potentially explains why they're the way they are, and then after you figure out what's fair and consistent, make a CRT about it. Don't complain about it here, it isn't relevant.

We don't do things like that, we assume a supporterbase knows and can judge a consistency by themselves, otherwise there wouldn't BE pages for Marvel.

We literally do. Numerous DC projects are in the works that have thousands of feats gathered over thousands of issues, some from blue goons, some from staff. This doesn't even delve into other large verses either mind you. Now, I don't expect everyone to be hyperanal or go to the extents I would, sometimes it is excessive to what is needed, but you literally proposed to basically ignore spidey sense 90% of the time and that it might not even help at all, as an actual weakness to put on the profile, sorry lad but that's the exact type of shit where yo need to go the extra mile to substantiate it.

And that right there is a problem, why supporterbase? Our profiles get read by non-fans. We should make an effort to prove and cite everything that is needed to prove a point.

And ya know, Marvel profiles do kinda need some work, but that's beside the point. We can have profiles, but we should be working to make them better, not settle for mediocrity forever. We have a decent foundation, but a foundation shouldn't be the forever goal.

Sucks to suck but 70 years of "this slop", for a hobby site, we have always done shortcuts like this. If anything I have reduced shortcutting like this for non-mainline characters, but still most if not all mainline characters are made through this guesswork because it's the best we can do for unpaid labour lol.

We literally do. Numerous DC projects are in the works that have thousands of feats gathered.

Just because we have in the past "taken shortcuts", doesn't mean we should continue to do so.

I'm going to ignore the fact you literally just admitted to using shortcuts, guesswork, all because it's a hobby? Like yeah shit ain't serious, but it not being serious doesn't mean shrug and go oh well.
I'm not really sure that's the type of thing you want to be admitting to in a CRT like this

---

I will admit the OP is abit exaggerated, but yeah as long as this weird illusion of "Spider-Man is invulnerable to getting hit" is removed I am down for any solution, and also willing to debate it.

Ok well, don't exaggerate? Like, for argument's sake. Let's say nobody noticed the thread, you got a few random mod approval, bam you slap your original proposal on the profile.
And.... It's wrong, bad, objectively false and even worse than the very thing you changed. Why would you be hyperbolic about stuff like that?
Nobody is saying the profile is right anyway. Some of the examples are high ends too, that's fair.

But it being wrong or wanked doesn't justify you going the opposite end of the extreme either. I don't care if the profile uses someone off hyper high end, that isn't an excuse to do the opposite.

Nothing you said there helps your case, it hurts it.

You showed unwillingness to strive for better profiles, admitting to guesswork, basically "vibe scaling", and shortcuts which kind of hurts credibility.
Used CRT's in the past you acknowledge were bad to justify your own lackluster CRT, even though the goal should be to NOT repeat that mistake.
Made excuses for every single point that we should be checking over to see when spidey sense is actually missing or lacking, most of which weren't actual excuses but simply saying profile says one thing which is bad, and why? Because it's effort? Why make the CRT if you didn't want to put in the effort that some people are ALREADY doing, hell you opened up with 3 scans even, that isn't at all enough for what you were suggesting?

I'm fine with removing the high end feats for the time being, but goddamn if i don't disagree with everything else you've been saying or how you go about things. Though that probably doesn't matter to much now given it seems you've changed your proposal to just removing a few high end examples.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it's silly to say hundreds of scans are needed to disprove that Spider-Sense is a godmode never get hit ability when there aren't exactly hundreds of scans of Spider-Man being absolutely invincible with its use on the profile either.

IMO let's just be as neutral as possible, Spider-Sense isn't an auto-dodge button you can always use but it's useful - that's the natural conclusion.ù

isn't that what we're supposed to do...

no

 

[The_Impress]

oh boy textwall time

You keep repeating

I really don't care, you want to change shit, that is fine, but do it right.

Yet you do care, otherwise you wouldn't ******* post anything

I never said higher assumption is ok either, I'm fine with whatever ends up being consistent, fair.
But that isn't what's being proposed, you're going the opposite extreme, which is just as bad. Yes the profile has unconventional high ends, but unconventional high ends do not justify ignoring potential context or what's actually happening at times to use them as alleged anti-feats.

I literally said I am willing to negotiate it. I gave a proposal on the thread, and we discuss what the proposal should be.

Also my definition.... Is literally the definition you gave

...did I? I don't think I have said once it is

I thought you wanted to "fix" spidey sense? It sounds more like you just don't like that CRT or these specific feats.

Old CRT being bad doesn't mean this one should be either.
Two wrongs don't make a right. If we want to fix it, we should actually fix it. Not do an equally rushed CRT. Idc if this takes months or even a year to accomplish, better to make sure it's all consistent, sorted out, etc, then do the very thing you just complained about.

Why are you using things you acknowledge to be bad and don't like, to justify your own lack of effort into the CRT? What you proposed wasn't just wanting to remove a high end feat one-off, you're proposing how we treat it entirely, but even further, to ignore a bunch of other things by association, that by virtue of the scale of your proposal, requires substantial evidence and justification.

Opinions? What about just to index the character properly as per wiki's purpose? Like I know it's a pain in the ass, trust me I know, but kinda comes with trying to sort out an ability with 70 years of feats and arguing an extreme in regards to it.

Do it right, don't halfass it, otherwise you're no better. Take your time, nobody is rushing you, people can be patient, but throwing a few scans and going lmao anti-feats and expecting that to outweigh what's on the profile is already suspect, it's just a few examples vs a few examples after all.

And that's me agreeing with you btw, the high ends aren't his standard, they probably shouldn't be treated as the usual, but statistically, your proposal is lacking evidence given the character and scope we're discussing.

It is practical, and it is necessary, you want to make a CRT on a integral part of a character's kit with quite literally thousands upon thousands of examples, but not just "hey this an outlier, we should ignore it" but "hey ignore spidey sense 90% of the time".
Our goal is consistency, to actually index the character as they should be, you said this yourself on the previous page. So why are you exempt from that? Practice what you preach. We should index what Spidey sense actually is, what it enables on the average, not lowball it with stray anti-feats, nor use the highest ends either.

No prior CRT being halfassed isn't an excuse. I didn't make it, I wasn't apart of it. But I am apart of this one, and given your complaining about it, I would expect you to not fall into that same trap.

I don't care. Do it right. Don't be a hypocrite. I agree with you, it shouldn't have been without proper discussion. So, now we are, what's the problem?

Our goal is to index stuff properly, you conveyed those same aspirations, if it is flawed, which it seemingly is, let's actually fix it and index stuff in a good way, not repeat the same mistake.

Also not the person to be yapping about this too. Given I'm not them, and I very much do gather every feat and showing of a character for featboxes. Currently doing so with Robot and two different Batmen even. If i were to ever do so for a spiderman character, I would do so too, because that's simply what is required when dealing with things as messy as comics.

If you don't like those things like Thor and Spidey, as it seems to be case, gather what you think is a consistent throughline of feats, crosscheck with high and lower feats to see if context potentially explains why they're the way they are, and then after you figure out what's fair and consistent, make a CRT about it. Don't complain about it here, it isn't relevant.

We literally do. Numerous DC projects are in the works that have thousands of feats gathered over thousands of issues, some from blue goons, some from staff. This doesn't even delve into other large verses either mind you. Now, I don't expect everyone to be hyperanal or go to the extents I would, sometimes it is excessive to what is needed, but you literally proposed to basically ignore spidey sense 90% of the time and that it might not even help at all, as an actual weakness to put on the profile, sorry lad but that's the exact type of shit where yo need to go the extra mile to substantiate it.

And that right there is a problem, why supporterbase? Our profiles get read by non-fans. We should make an effort to prove and cite everything that is needed to prove a point.

And ya know, Marvel profiles do kinda need some work, but that's beside the point. We can have profiles, but we should be working to make them better, not settle for mediocrity forever. We have a decent foundation, but a foundation shouldn't be the forever goal.

We literally do. Numerous DC projects are in the works that have thousands of feats gathered.

Just because we have in the past "taken shortcuts", doesn't mean we should continue to do so.

I'm going to ignore the fact you literally just admitted to using shortcuts, guesswork, all because it's a hobby? Like yeah shit ain't serious, but it not being serious doesn't mean shrug and go oh well.

I'm not really sure that's the type of thing you want to be admitting to in a CRT like this

Ok well, don't exaggerate? Like, for argument's sake. Let's say nobody noticed the thread, you got a few random mod approval, bam you slap your original proposal on the profile.
And.... It's wrong, bad, objectively false and even worse than the very thing you changed. Why would you be hyperbolic about stuff like that?
Nobody is saying the profile is right anyway. Some of the examples are high ends too, that's fair.

But it being wrong or wanked doesn't justify you going the opposite end of the extreme either. I don't care if the profile uses someone off hyper high end, that isn't an excuse to do the opposite.

Nothing you said there helps your case, it hurts it.

You showed unwillingness to strive for better profiles, admitting to guesswork, basically "vibe scaling", and shortcuts which kind of hurts credibility.
Used CRT's in the past you acknowledge were bad to justify your own lackluster CRT, even though the goal should be to NOT repeat that mistake.
Made excuses for every single point that we should be checking over to see when spidey sense is actually missing or lacking, most of which weren't actual excuses but simply saying profile says one thing which is bad, and why? Because it's effort? Why make the CRT if you didn't want to put in the effort that some people are ALREADY doing, hell you opened up with 3 scans even, that isn't at all enough for what you were suggesting?

I'm fine with removing the high end feats for the time being, but goddamn if i don't disagree with everything else you've been saying or how you go about things. Though that probably doesn't matter to much now given it seems you've changed your proposal to just removing a few high end examples.

I mean most of this post is just complaining about shit that is being done, has been done, always has been done and then some.

If you disagree with how the files are handled that immensely, feel free to report me for site manipulation or whatever (based action, basically everyone who has made a versewide thread for Marvel is gonna get banned), but that is how the verse, just is. Look at like, anything that isn't high tier, those revisions, they're just not done the way you say they are.

You're claiming like, you have this amazing Batman revision upcoming or whatever where you read everything and will post it in an insane blog and it'll blow our minds or whatever, go for it, the day that happens and is posted I'd say yeah Marvel should do comparable revisions, but rn you're just saying, imo, hypothetical no-life type months long revisions to remove shit that was added by some guy staring at some respect threads for some minutes and calling it a day, and every versewide revision in Marvel should take like an year to propose with 20 guys working on it. Respect Megahreads I don't think are comparable, since they're not as much a stickler for consistency and try and go for max def feats.

Like yeah that IS the ideal way, it is shit I literally do and tell people to do for characters with like, up to 400ish issues. But also nobody ever ******* does this for high appearance lol.

Othewise most of your post is, no offense, just this weird utopian take.

If you prefer I can get you exactly as many scans as there are, ON THE FILE ITSELF, of Spider-Sense slumming it, or matching enough to whatever is posted on the thread.

Beyond that you're proposing work on the scale I don't think anyone on this wiki has done verifiably and then riding up on the high horse. If it sounds harsh, you're just hearing me being blunt on shit everyone in the decade of this site existing has done for Spider-Man.

 

[Chariot190]

I think it's silly to say hundreds of scans are needed to disprove that Spider-Sense is a godmode never get hit ability when there aren't exactly hundreds of scans of Spider-Man being absolutely invincible with its use on the profile either.

IMO let's just be as neutral as possible, Spider-Sense isn't an auto-dodge button you can always use but it's useful - that's the natural conclusion.ù

no

Proving one specific instance inconsistent is a case of just a few stray anti-feats given it's simply 1 high-end that never happened again, that shit is easy, but that isn't what the CRT is actually proposing.

"Spider-Sense is extremely inconsistent, and often enough wouldn't be enough to mitigate all attacks heading towards Spider-Man's way, or any at all." - actual proposed weakness section.

That very much is something you'd need hundreds of viable scans for. It isn't saying "this one off feat is dumb, not standard, ignore it", it's saying "Spidey sense is super inconsistent and often won't help at all, change profile to reflect that". Couple that with "Everyone and their mom can hit Spider-Man, so it can only result in two explanations possible: Everyone in Marvel Comics is FASTER THAN Spider-Sense OR Everyone randomly has an unsaid precog resist/It just isn't a thing 99% of the time."
Somehow only being the only two options we got, that being everyone resists, or pretend that shit don't exist, is also something you need substantial evidence for when dealing with a massive ability like this if the argument and proposals boils down to "99% of the time this ability actually doesn't exist, so as a weakness, note it doesn't help much, if at all".

Evidently, what the CRT wants to do, and what it's actually proposing, aren't quite the same. I'd recommend OP changes the OP otherwise we kinda are in comic slop hell.

 

[The_Impress]

I'll wait abit more for consensus before I rewrite my Weakness proposal.

I don't disagree with Armor's points, but yeah.

do people just only read OPs nowadays

 

[Chariot190]

Yet you do care, otherwise you wouldn't ******* post anything

I thought it was obvious I meant I don't care about the arguments for why it's ok
Evidently I care about the CRT as a whole, however much one can care about marvel slop at 7am anyway.

I literally said I am willing to negotiate it. I gave a proposal on the thread, and we discuss what the proposal should be.

And this is the negotiation, if that is the proposal, it needs extreme amount of scans given we're talking the ability as a general whole simply being functional.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, if you don't want to do so, change what it is you're proposing, like what else do you want me to say? You just want those few feats tweaked or removed from standardfair? That's fair and easy, but that shit ain't what was proposed.

...did I? I don't think I have said once it is

"We are here to represent characters, we AREN'T here to write hyper-powered versions of characters that don't exist for some ulterior motive."

Goes both ways, we also don't go the opposite extreme. We're here to index them as they're consistently portrayed.

I mean most of this post is just complaining about shit that is being done, has been done, always has been done and then some.

Are you really trying to justify you literally saying you take shortcuts, guesswork and used bad CRT to justify why two wrongs make a right and turn that around on me?

I don't care about what people have done, goal is kind of to do things better, not worse

If you disagree with how the files are handled that immensely, feel free to report me for site manipulation or whatever (based action, basically everyone who has made a versewide thread for Marvel is gonna get banned), but that is how the verse, just is. Look at like, anything that isn't high tier, those revisions, they're just not done the way you say they are.

I mean, I can definitely call you on that shit if you're admitting to taking shortcuts and basically guesswork.
I wouldn't do so for others because I wouldn't know if it's deliberate.
We should make an effort to do shit better, not halfass everything forever because "lol hobby".

Yes, Marvel revisions have been notoriously bad, you yourself just finished yapping about how much you hated the CRT that got these added. Why continue that trend?
you will never understand the lengths and work going into the web incap meta.

You're claiming like, you have this amazing Batman revision upcoming or whatever where you read everything and will post it in an insane blog and it'll blow our minds or whatever, go for it, the day that happens and is posted I'd say yeah Marvel should do comparable revisions, but rn you're just saying, imo, hypothetical no-life type months long revisions to remove shit that was added by some guy staring at some respect threads for some minutes and calling it a day, and every versewide revision in Marvel should take like an year to propose with 20 guys working on it. Respect Megahreads I don't think are comparable, since they're not as much a stickler for consistency and try and go for max def feats.

No I'm just saying don't be lazy and don't try to justify your rushed CRT with extreme proposals that you admit you exaggerated, by posting next to no proof for what you actually proposed. CRT's require evidence, some more than others.

The rest was me replying to you going off about how it's ok to be lazy due to precedence, as if that had anything to do with what I originally said because I said "yep big proposal needs big scans, sucks" and you felt the need to argue or justify otherwise instead of just going "eh i changed my mind" or whatever now.

I never mentioned megathreads, I even said i don't expect people to go to the extent I do, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Like yeah that IS the ideal way, it is shit I literally do and tell people to do for characters with like, up to 400ish issues. But also nobody ever ******* does this for high appearance lol.

So? Why is every argument of yours essentially "well we already halfass stuff so let's keep doing it"?
Also who's nobody? Every comic goon I'm aware of on site nolifes whole runs? Tbh they probably shouldn't and should spread it out more but eh.

Othewise most of your post is, no offense, just this weird utopian take.

I mean yeah? Why shouldn't you actually try, put in effort, whatever? You want to represent the character as is, you argued a proposal that requires extreme amounts of evidence, and then you yap and make excuses as to why you shouldn't have to be held to what is actually very much a reasonable standard given the context and your proposal, using past bad CRT's you yourself don't like, people making rushed CRT's, and more to justify it? Two wrongs don't make a right.

If you prefer I can get you exactly as many scans as there are, ON THE FILE ITSELF, of Spider-Sense slumming it, or matching enough to whatever is posted on the thread.

I mean, I'm already fine with removing the high ends, but me being fine with that and what the CRT is explicitly proposing aren't the same thing.

Beyond that you're proposing work on the scale I don't think anyone on this wiki has done verifiably and then riding up on the high horse. If it sounds harsh, you're just hearing me being blunt on shit everyone in the decade of this site existing has done for Spider-Man.

No, I literally said I don't expect that degree from most and it's excessive in most cases, twice even, but unfortunately, this is one such time it wouldn't be.
Whether or not you think people do that, doesn't change the fact it exists, not that it matters because this would be a first either way.
Yeah and it SUCKS my dude. Fortunately, people are trying those people aint me, i aint ******* with spidey but at least two goons making an attempt.
But no, this is an excuse. You proposed something, you were told to get sufficient evidence for it, you then 180'd and made every excuse imaginable as to why you shouldn't have to. I do not care about said reasons, either change what it is you're actually proposing, or get digging because you're going to literally need to overturn thousands of contradictory examples.

do people just only read OPs nowadays

Most do yes, but that isn't relevant because it has yet to be rewritten, I voiced my concerns with what was suggested, ya know, the "abit more for consensus" part of that sentence. And then here we are. Either way I'm not doing this shit with you, evidently it would seem you are no longer proposing that, so be it, that is fine, if that isn't what's being proposed you don't need to dig for ten fucktrillion citations, but, assuming that was or is the case, you very much would if we're arguing consistency here.

 

[Hellbeast]

A large part of the issue again, is that we're assuming the BEST POSSIBLE ACTIVATION CONSISTENCY for Spider-Sense, as well as the BEST POSSIBLE SHOWCASE for it, giving it ******* insane feats, If it was JUST the boost to dodging, I'd be like less invested.

Like, something's gotta give lol.

Don’t we lean towards higher ends, within reason? Like obviously consistency is key but this is hardly unprecedented on the wiki and it’s not like Spidey Sense is even treated all that much like an NLF

 

[Armorchompy]

Listen, fellas, let's just add (as was mentioned earlier in the thread), in a note or in weaknesses, that the Spider-Sense, while useful is not infallible and even unskilled opponents have managed to prove themselves to be a serious threat to Peter. That way we're not making an opinionated statement, we're just stating something that is true in the comics. We can argue over the specifics of the note but I don't think we need to be arguing over just exactly how powerful it is, there's no one answer to that- let's just put the facts on the profile (acknowledging both high ends in the P&A and low ends in this new addition) and leave it at that.

 

[Lort15]

Seems fine, I agree with Chariot's reasons.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I remember reading in the novel for the movie that his Spider Sense alerts him to incoming danger but he often isn't physically in a position to dodge it. It can also be a skill issue, given that the ability is a sixth sense for danger but not omniscience. He still has to interpret the information from his senses and react to it. In that sense it might be similar to seeing an attack coming but not being able to avoid it, or even being able to process the incoming danger before being hit.

He clearly has the ability, but he also clearly isn't able to avoid everything using it thus meaning it has limits.

Overall, it's probably way less infallible than a lot of people seem to think, making it a useful defensive ability but not a permanent invulnerability frame.

 

[Baken384]

I'm thinking of a weakness such as Spider-Man's Spider-Sense based on a few scans
Spider-Sense Weaknesses: Peter's Spider-Sense doesn't always know the nature of the attacks his Spider-Sense detects and is only effective in tandem with his Speed.

Another Revision to this quick Weakness description I made with the help of Chariot. What do you guys think?

Spider-Sense Weaknesses: While Spider-Sense alerts Peter of various dangers both in and out of combat, it doesn't always know the exact nature or specifics of the danger in question. His Spider-Sense while useful is made as effective as it is due to his innate speed, meaning without his fundamental reflexes, his Spider Sense wouldn't be nearly as effective. Spider-Man despite being described to be very difficult to land a hit on, isn't impossible to tag, and despite having good maneuverability, should an attack take up to much space or cover to much area, he may have difficulties avoiding it as he can only dodge in so many ways before he would be hit."

 

[KLOL506]

I agree wholeheartedly with Chariot. The intent on revising Spider-Sense to be very handy but not infallible due to multiple other factors within and beyond the capabilities of the Sense is fine, but the way this was brought about isn't. OP should know better than this.

 

[The_Impress]

OP should know better than this.

Staff members should know better than to dogpile on a redundant point that I am purposely not responding to at this point because Chariot will post another 2000 word elongated textwall that has some of the most nonsensical-but-sound-pretty takes I have seen repeated ad-infinitum, and it doesn't get us to the conclusion of the thread any faster. Armor literally asked everyone to move on.

Report me and call it a day if you have problems with my work, I didn't make this thread to get reviews of me as a thread maker, I made this thread to get fixes on a file, I'd prefer to respond to these criticisms where it isn't derailment for the thread topic.

EDIT: As predicted

Speaking of

Spider-Sense Weaknesses: While Spider-Sense alerts Peter of various dangers both in and out of combat, it doesn't always know the exact nature or specifics of the danger in question. His Spider-Sense while useful is made as effective as it is due to his innate speed, meaning without his fundamental reflexes, his Spider Sense wouldn't be nearly as effective. Spider-Man despite being described to be very difficult to land a hit on, isn't impossible to tag, and despite having good maneuverability, should an attack take up to much space or cover to much area, he may have difficulties avoiding it as he can only dodge in so many ways before he would be hit."

This is fine for now.

 

[Chariot190]

Staff members should know better than to dogpile on a redundant point that I am purposely not responding to at this point because Chariot will post another 2000 word elongated textwall that has some of the most nonsensical-but-sound-pretty takes I have seen repeated ad-infinitum, and it doesn't get us to the conclusion of the thread any faster.

Then change your OP. It's still the same. Hate to break it to you but if you make a bad OP with a bad proposal, people can, will and must respond to what it actually says, that's how threads work.

It doesn't matter if you go "I'll wait for more input", wtf do you think that input is? How will you know what "the consensus to your original proposal" is if people don't explain why it sucks, why they disagree and what should be done instead?
Do you expect people to just ignore the OP because you said that offhand? If they do how are you getting said input? Said consensus? And to know why people hate it and what to change? If people just ignore it and don't actually argue it, how is anything getting done? And if you've change your stance, update the OP then, it's not hard.

Think before you start throwing your thinly veiled backhanded remarks.

Report me and call it a day if you have problems with me, I didn't make this thread to get reviews of me as a thread maker, I made this thread to get fixes on a file, I'd prefer to respond to these criticisms where it isn't derailment for the thread topic.

Well, they're one in the same, how do we fix shit if the fix is just as bad? Regardless, it seems we've come to a conclusion.

If some more staff weigh in on it, it should be sufficient for now till the goons finish their project.

 

[Armorchompy]

If you people keep arguing I'm locking the thread or threadbanning whoever I deem to deserve it, shut up about who's right and who's wrong and get back to talking about the actual topic.

 

[The_Impress]

Spider-Sense Weaknesses: While Spider-Sense alerts Peter of various dangers both in and out of combat, it doesn't always know the exact nature or specifics of the danger in question. His Spider-Sense while useful is made as effective as it is due to his innate speed, meaning without his fundamental reflexes, his Spider Sense wouldn't be nearly as effective. Spider-Man despite being described to be very difficult to land a hit on, isn't impossible to tag, and despite having good maneuverability, should an attack take up to much space or cover to much area, he may have difficulties avoiding it as he can only dodge in so many ways before he would be hit."

I am guessing everyone is in agreement to this, so I'll update the OP and ig we can get people to vote on this definition going on the file? That seem about right?

 

[The_Impress]

Updated the OP

@Armorchompy can you re-tag every staff that responded to the thread and ask them to re-input on the edit version? Yourself included.

 

[Armorchompy]

@LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @Armorchompy (idk why i have to tag myself but I think the edit seems fine)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems fine enough.

 

[Hellbeast]

Staff members should know better than to dogpile on a redundant point that I am purposely not responding to at this point because Chariot will post another 2000 word elongated textwall that has some of the most nonsensical-but-sound-pretty takes I have seen repeated ad-infinitum, and it doesn't get us to the conclusion of the thread any faster. Armor literally asked everyone to move on.

Report me and call it a day if you have problems with my work, I didn't make this thread to get reviews of me as a thread maker, I made this thread to get fixes on a file, I'd prefer to respond to these criticisms where it isn't derailment for the thread topic.

This bodes well.

But moving forward is this proposal fine neither the amendments made?

 

[The_Impress]

But moving forward is this proposal fine neither the amendments made?

Whatcha mean?

 

[Hellbeast]

Whatcha mean?

I’m asking if we are fine with the proposal to add the note to the page while not hugely rewriting the page

 

[The_Impress]

I don't think we had a huge rewrite, this was to add the Weakness to the page, no?

 

[The_Impress]

bump ig

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Another Revision to this quick Weakness description I made with the help of Chariot. What do you guys think?

Spider-Sense Weaknesses: While Spider-Sense alerts Peter of various dangers both in and out of combat, it doesn't always know the exact nature or specifics of the danger in question. His Spider-Sense while useful is made as effective as it is due to his innate speed, meaning without his fundamental reflexes, his Spider Sense wouldn't be nearly as effective. Spider-Man despite being described to be very difficult to land a hit on, isn't impossible to tag, and despite having good maneuverability, should an attack take up to much space or cover to much area, he may have difficulties avoiding it as he can only dodge in so many ways before he would be hit."

This looks good, I can agree with this update.

 

[Armorchompy]

should be enough support

 

[The_Impress]

Alright, I'll get this applied by tomorrow (SWAMPED rn)