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Another Hoyoverse Downgrade | 1-B to High 1-C
- Thread starter Telomera
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- #42
Statements of "transcending" something are not nearly enough evidence for any sort of superiority. VSBW acknowledges this
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The vsbw never says that statements of transcendence are not enough. They say that statements of transcendence need to be proven to be literal and not metaphorical. In fact, it's literally the opposite.
Vsbw says that any valid statement of existing beyond dimensions, being above dimensions, etc, all fall under L1-A without context. And since it's pretty obvious that Hoyoverse is talking about literal dimensions, these statements would hold up.
I also don't need to prove any qualitative superiority since, as I mentioned before, that doesn't matter till 1-A.
(Pardon the pictures, I don't know how to highlight stuff in links)
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- #44
You're ignoring the fact that it specifies that the statement has to indicate being "above dimensions" and/or "superiority over dimensions." The issue here is that we only have statements of "transcending" dimensions. There is absolutely no context implying that "transcending dimensions" implies any sort of superiority over dimensions.. The idea that the word "transcend" automatically refers to superiority over something is nothing but made-up powerscaler brainrot. "Transcend" has meanings other than "surpass" or "be greater than."
Also, stop derailing. If you want to undo the downgrade, make your own thread.
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The word 'transcend' can mean two things.
1. To be or go beyond the range or limits of (something abstract, typically a conceptual field or division).
2. To surpass (a person or achievement)
Since 'dimensions' is not a person or achievement, it should default to the former (though surpassing all dimensions works anyway.)
When they say 'validly indicate superiority over dimensions', the emphasis isn't on the word 'transcend', but on the context behind 'dimensions.
They're questioning whether or not the 'dimensions' that were transcended are actual spacial dimensions or simply separate entities such as Doraemon's pocket or seperate realms (heaven, hell, purgatory, etc.).
In hoyoverse's case, they are referring to literal spacial dimensions, therefore these statements hold up for L1-A
And I don't belive this is derailing this thread.
First, if I prove Hoyoverse is L1-A, then by default the downgrade to 1-C is invalid.
Second, I doubt the mods would enjoy having to deal with two threads about the cosmology of the same series at the same time.
Third, I'm willing to bet money that we would be having this exact conversation if I made another thread anyways.
I'm saving everyone's time by doing it here.
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ye ye cool but another thread proposes 1-A instead !!
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- #48
Yes. The first is better. The issue is that to "go beyond the range" of something is to simply go outside of it, or more precisely to operate independently of it, conceptually speaking. To "go beyond the range" of all dimensions is simply to operate without respect to any dimensions whatsoever. There is nothing more to it than that. And as we know, operating independently of all dimensions does not indicate any sort of superiority over them. That is why scaling Dragon Ball to tier 1 solely based off statements of "transcending" was rejected.
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The imaginary tree is also an entity that has no dimensional information aka it operates without dimensionality. However, it is strictly superior to everything present within the tree, including its dimensions. The Honkai can directly interact with the tree, which is an existence that exists beyond dimensions and is strictly superior to them.
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- #50
No. You have no evidence that the imaginary tree has any sort of superiority over "all dimensions", only that it operates independently of them. Even if you go by the meaning of "transcend" as "To be or go beyond the range or limits of (something abstract, typically a conceptual field or division)," that STILL does not indicate any sort of superiority over all dimensions because going "beyond the range of something" does not indicate any sort of superiority to that something.
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You're ignoring a very crucial point. To transcend something requires you to not simply be greater than something else, but initially be lesser or equal to said thing. It's illogical to assume that just because you're no longer confined by the limits of something, that you are no longer able to interact with said thing.
Imagine you're in a building with an infinite number of rooms. There is only a single door in the room, which leads to a bigger room. Each room would be akin to a dimension, and entering a new one would be akin to transcending one dimension. An entity that exists beyond all dimensions would be outside the entire building. In order to leave the building, you would have to 'transcend' an infinite amount of rooms.
You are right in saying that an entity that originally existed outside the building might not be able to interact with the people inside. However, it is illogical to assume that an entity that was able to leave the building would be unable to go back in. It is also illogical to assume that if said entity goes back in, they would only be able to go back to their original room.
If you are able to go from room 1 to room 2, it follows reason for you to be able to go back to room 1. Following this logic, it would be reasonable to assume that an entity which left the building would be able to go back into any room it desired. This would be akin to putting itself at any dimension.
Since higher dimensional being are superior to all dimensions below it, (4D>3D, etc.), the amount of dimensions an entity is superior to can be represented by d-1, with d being the amount of dimensions the space it resides in currently is.
If we now go back to the building and rooms analogy, we can replace d with r. The amount of 'rooms' an entity is superior to would be r-1. If you exit an infinite amount of 'rooms', the amount of 'rooms' you would be superior to would be infinity-1, which is still infinity.
From this, we can conclude that an entity which originally had dimensionality, but now is no longer confined by it, would be superior to an infinite amount of dimensions, which would be L1-A
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- #52
I never claimed any of that. I never claimed that someone who "transcends" dimensions would not be able to interact with dimensional beings. I simply claimed that to "transcend" something doesn't necessarily imply any sort of superiority whatsoever. On the contrary, "transcend" often denotes operation outside/independent of something. Obviously, operating outside of dimensionality does not indicate any sort of superiority over dimensionality.
No. Not at all. To "transcend" something does not require any sort of superiority whatsoever, even if "transcend" is meant literally. The literal meaning of "transcend" still does not necessitate any sort of superiority at all.
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Looking through this thread (more specifically the older threads where the upgrades were being pushed for), I'm not really buying this downgrade from 1-B to High 1-C stuff. This scan here seems pretty straightforward on the imaginary tree itself transcending reality, which is already accepted as 11-Dimensional with the whole Sea of Quanta stuff holding all realities in general. So count me for disagreeing with this thread.
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It seems like the MWI of Honkai is being put into doubt off of the main post which just seems to be outright wrong.
In Chapter 11-EX, Stage 1, we play a level where if you fail, it goes over Kiana's failure (The reawakening of HoV through use of too much Honkai Energy, activated through filling the bar at the middle) and the consequences of that failure, being the fall of the Current Era. This is an equally possible outcome in the level and the game goes as far to show it to you if Kiana fails in this stage, outright portraying it as another possible outcome of the timeline.
First, some background on Ai-Chan. She's a meta character, is aware of the reader, or player, whichever you prefer. Out of anyone in the Hoyo Universe, I'd say she's the most reliable source.
In Chapter 35 Act XI Ai outright states 'I witnessed everything about you all in the Pseudotime Crystal, and saw all your pasts and futures.'
She also states 'From the moment of birth (her birth), the world I see has been divided into countless parallel times. In the boundless time, I experienced countless pasts and futures. I witnessed countless similar stories.'
She also mentions in her confrontation with Gray Serpent that she can 'foresee the most probable past and future for this world.' (Spelling mistake included lol) -It's pretty evident that Ai-chan can experience the most likely offshoots from the varying other worlds that exist.
Overall, I'm definitely not qualified enough to discuss in any other of the points of debate on this thread, but I think there's enough evidence to say that the Hoyo Universe runs on the Many Worlds Interpretation, or at least that the Many Worlds Interpretation is the writers intention, we are shown one of the possible outcomes and given a character that has witnessed many.
Footnote:
The Wiki states that 'The concept of “time” on Earth disappeared when the “Stigma” project was activated, then the “Pseudo-Time” Crystal appeared. Ai is part of this very Crystal and thanks to it, she can see all the “possible endings” for humanity after Project Stigma.' - The wiki is definitely the most reliable source, but the concept of time outright vanishing is interesting, I'm just leaving it here in case anyone has some scans for this and it could prove useful.
Footnote 2:
The initial post states 'The god-tiers of Hoyoverse are currently rated at 1-B via scaling to the Imaginary Tree, which is the origin of everything, stores everything (particularly, it stores everything as if it were game data), is supposedly akin to a bulk neutral hyperspace, contains infinite 11-D multiverses, and would logically contain an uncountable amount of bubble worlds since it runs on MWI.' - Small correction, the tree is INFINITELY large and does contain infinite worlds, but bubble worlds are contained in the Sea of Quanta, Bubble Worlds are worlds that used to be individual leaves on the Sea of Quanta, but have since lost the fight against the Honkai and are discarded into the Sea.
(Personally, my own interpretation of the Imaginary Tree is that each splitting branch represents a different world, and the closer the leaves the more similar the universes. My only evidence is that when Otto Apocalypse made 'Infinite possibilities for Kallen' in the 'Thus Spoke Apocalypse' short by changing the past, we are outright shown the infinite tree growing another branch, presumably Kallen's futures that she discarded with her death and the consequences her survival had.)
In Chapter 11-EX, Stage 1, we play a level where if you fail, it goes over Kiana's failure (The reawakening of HoV through use of too much Honkai Energy, activated through filling the bar at the middle) and the consequences of that failure, being the fall of the Current Era. This is an equally possible outcome in the level and the game goes as far to show it to you if Kiana fails in this stage, outright portraying it as another possible outcome of the timeline.
First, some background on Ai-Chan. She's a meta character, is aware of the reader, or player, whichever you prefer. Out of anyone in the Hoyo Universe, I'd say she's the most reliable source.
In Chapter 35 Act XI Ai outright states 'I witnessed everything about you all in the Pseudotime Crystal, and saw all your pasts and futures.'
She also states 'From the moment of birth (her birth), the world I see has been divided into countless parallel times. In the boundless time, I experienced countless pasts and futures. I witnessed countless similar stories.'
She also mentions in her confrontation with Gray Serpent that she can 'foresee the most probable past and future for this world.' (Spelling mistake included lol) -It's pretty evident that Ai-chan can experience the most likely offshoots from the varying other worlds that exist.
Overall, I'm definitely not qualified enough to discuss in any other of the points of debate on this thread, but I think there's enough evidence to say that the Hoyo Universe runs on the Many Worlds Interpretation, or at least that the Many Worlds Interpretation is the writers intention, we are shown one of the possible outcomes and given a character that has witnessed many.
Footnote:
The Wiki states that 'The concept of “time” on Earth disappeared when the “Stigma” project was activated, then the “Pseudo-Time” Crystal appeared. Ai is part of this very Crystal and thanks to it, she can see all the “possible endings” for humanity after Project Stigma.' - The wiki is definitely the most reliable source, but the concept of time outright vanishing is interesting, I'm just leaving it here in case anyone has some scans for this and it could prove useful.
Footnote 2:
The initial post states 'The god-tiers of Hoyoverse are currently rated at 1-B via scaling to the Imaginary Tree, which is the origin of everything, stores everything (particularly, it stores everything as if it were game data), is supposedly akin to a bulk neutral hyperspace, contains infinite 11-D multiverses, and would logically contain an uncountable amount of bubble worlds since it runs on MWI.' - Small correction, the tree is INFINITELY large and does contain infinite worlds, but bubble worlds are contained in the Sea of Quanta, Bubble Worlds are worlds that used to be individual leaves on the Sea of Quanta, but have since lost the fight against the Honkai and are discarded into the Sea.
(Personally, my own interpretation of the Imaginary Tree is that each splitting branch represents a different world, and the closer the leaves the more similar the universes. My only evidence is that when Otto Apocalypse made 'Infinite possibilities for Kallen' in the 'Thus Spoke Apocalypse' short by changing the past, we are outright shown the infinite tree growing another branch, presumably Kallen's futures that she discarded with her death and the consequences her survival had.)
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- #57
"Transcending" anything is not enough proof for a +1D increase in tier. I thought the wiki already settled this years ago
Having multiple possibilities is not nearly enough evidence to prove MWI to any reasonable extent at all. In fact, what you cited is actually counterevidence. MWI is strictly and explicitly deterministic, yet even this all but omniscient character can't pinpoint the exact future, instead leaving the future and past indeterminate. Of course, this isn't certain proof that MWI doesn't hold but it's pretty convincing evidence that it doesn't
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Link the thread.
First, you're misinterpreting MWI. MWI is a deterministic theory which explains a world that appears to be indeterministic. To put it in simple terms, it means that every possible outcome is guaranteed to happen (the deterministic part), but we can only ever observe one possible outcome, making it appear random (indeterministic part). So even a character that can hypothetically see the future won't be able to know exactly what will happen in any specific world from that alone due to the fact that all futures are equally likely. All they will know are all possibilities that exist in all possible worlds, which lines up perfectly with Ai saying that she's seen all their pasts and futures.
Second, the past is very much deterministic. The whole point of Otto's story was him defying fate, to forcefully create a new possibility for Kallen's survival, which immediately branched off into a new branch on the tree. In order to replicate the feat, one would have to go directly to the tree, which Ai simply cannot do.
Third
The game itself tells you it runs by MWI.
Not only that
Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia
MWI is often compared to a many branched tree, just like the tree in HI3.
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- #59
It's literally in the Tiering System FAQ. It explicitly points out the fact that "transcending space and time" can simply refer to a character being "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings."
That's good evidence. In fact, it's your only good evidence. The issue however is that their explanation of MWI literally contradicts what MWI actually is. Einstein says that in Honkai, the "quantum" collapses countless parallel universes into one specific universe when observed. On the contrary, MWI as proposed IRL is pretty much the complete opposite. ACTUAL mwi has NO wavefunction collapse and instead splits one universe into multiple via decoherence; thus, it is entirely different from and is not interchangeable with Honkai's "MWI".
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Yes, and all you have done is say that there is another possibility. You haven't proved that it means "untied from the universe's spacetime".
That is true, however you're ignoring a key piece of context. Immediately after she says that, she goes on to talk about how the SoQ is the "puddle" that contains all possibilities. Furthermore, MWI is one of the more popular theories used to explain the behavior of objects with wave-particle dualities. In our world, when something that displays wave-particle duality is observed, it "collapses" into a single possibility, yet MWI is still applicable. This proves that the collapse of many possibilities into one when observing only a single world does not disprove MWI. Likewise, when "quanta" collapses many possibilities into one, they are observing the possibiluties being collapsed in only a single world, so it in no way violates MWI.
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@Telomera Transcending reality to reach the same state of existence as the imaginary tree is enough for a dimensional jump. Numerous franchises have transcendence statement in relations to realms that are above others and it does qualify for a tier jump, and seeing how Honkai talks about the imaginary tree in relation to the other worlds, it's very straightforward referring to a dimensional jump and the statement with the Imaginary tree is arguably one of the most straightforward dimensional jumps I've seen in recent memory.
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The burden of proof is on you to prove that it does indicate a dimensional jump. The burden of proof is not on me to prove that it does not. Do you understand the fact that the Honkai profiles actively make a claim about Honkai's dimensional tiering and that I am merely pointing out the fact that they fail to justify that claim?
That actually further proves my point. Real life MWI doesn't have a spatially separate space in between timelines where all possibilities aggregate. Instead, all possibilities simply exist in superposition. There is no separate "quantum realm" in the real life MWI. The fact that Honkai introduces completely foreign magical mumbo jumbo and includes it as a key part of Honkai's MWI already solidifies the fact that it's not at all comparable to real life MWI (VSBW already uses this same reasoning to reject directly comparing "magical light" feats to "realistic light" feats by the way)
You'd have a point if Einstein was simply talking about how we view things in one universe. But that's not at all what happens. Einstein is literally just talking about what actually objectively happens in the big picture. If she was just talking about something that only happens from our perspective, she wouldn't call it the "basis of the famous Many-Worlds Interpretation" because the MWI itself is literally an interpretation of cosmology as a whole rather than one of individual universes.
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Appealing to random, incorrectly-tiered profiles is not a valid argument. The statement in Honkai of "transcend[ing] reality" is not proof of a dimensional jump whatsoever. Treating it as one goes against our standards and is just stupid in general.
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Doesnt matter because we know that the Imaginary Tree transcends the rest of the cosmology and that it is higher-dimensional, given higher-d in HoYo is accepted as significant dimensions, the Tree would be a + 1D based on these two.
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You have been doing good work and your statements are precise, even tho I don't play hi3 or GGZ I am able to understand everything you said and agree with you till now
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@Telomera That is not an argument, can you actually prove that what Durandal is saying about someone being able to transcend reality and be a part of the imaginary tree has nothing to do with a dimensional jump beyond quoting an FAQ post? Because half of the FAQ you're quoting has nothing to do with what the scan in question is saying and the other you've not remotely argued it functions similar to heaven and hell beyond just saying "transcending can mean anything", which is not an argument to make if you don't elaborate on why it's vague and can mean anything.
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Prove those verses are random incorrectly tiered first lmao
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No, you are the one trying to make the downgrade, therefore you should be the one to prove that it means otherwise.
No. MWI states that all possibilities and outcomes exist at the same time. However, since we can only observe one outcome, the other outcomes must exist in other worlds. MWI is literally a multiverse theory. What you're trying to say here is that a multiverse isn't possible because we can't observe anything outside our own universe. Not only that, the "space" separating the worlds in the SoQ is most likely Imaginary Space, where standard laws of physics literally break down.
She says that all matter in the universe is made of quantum. This means that quantum would just be a fancy term for subatomic particles such as electrons and protons.
Subatomic particles when fired through two slits creates a wave interference pattern instead of a particle pattern. Even when the particles are fired individually, over time, they still create a wave interference pattern. However, when scientists tried to observe the particles, they suddenly began to act as particles. MWI was one of the possible solutions proposed in order to solve this dillema.
In other words, MWI is a proposed multiverse theory based on observations from a single world.
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Thank you! I really appreciate your words of encouragement
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Same
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This is fine.
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Agreed
HakutoRei000
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Um, is it better to reject it straight away because 3 mods rejected it, or should the op enter the tally vote first? Like i mean waiting for other opinions?
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actually 4 mods rejected it, and honestly idk why has OP not maintained a tally yet, they should have done it since people posted their opinion against the thread if i am not wrong
HakutoRei000
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Yes, at least add the tally if op still want to present argument, or if not well closed it i guess?
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