Bleach: About the powernull system

[Johner2133451]

Currently we have this in the soul physiology page

• Limited Power Nullification (Reiryoku can null the abilities and techniques of those massively weaker than the user)

But notice the scan shows that it's just a battle between soul reapers? So the powernull should only apply to shinigamis by other shinigamis and not universally



To back this up, quincies were able to use their abilities/hax to effect opponents much stronger than themselves such as Askin w Ichigo, Pernida w Kenpachi, and Uryu w Soul King Yhwach via plot arrow and Antithesis (As Jugram stated that the ability allows Uryu to defeat Yhwach)

Main proposal: I think the limited powernull should only be reserved for shinigamis and not soul physiology

Other proposals in case the first is rejected:

Proposal A: Have the quincies mentioned increased in tier to the people they effected like Askin becoming 4-A
Proposal B: Quincy physiology having resist to powernull
Proposal C (by @Bastolan27): Ability stays but be given with better clarification like Shinigami/Arrancars being passive having them while Quincies/FullBringers is based on manual activation. Also have a weakness that it's unable to nulify environmental focused hax such as Death Dealing

 

[Excellence616]

To back this up, quincies were able to use their abilities/hax to effect opponents much stronger than themselves such as Askin w Ichigo, Pernida w Kenpachi, and Uryu w Soul King Yhwach via plot arrow and Antithesis (As Jugram stated that the ability allows Uryu to defeat Yhwach)

Askin poisoned the air to affect Ichigo (same Ichigo who was considerably holding back even in his shikai state)

Uryu's case, the TYBW anime hasn't ended yet and alot of things might change but even if we go by the Manga, Yhwach was in the middle of recovering when Uryu shot him and if Ichigo didn't make it in time, the arrow would have been in vain.

While Pernida's case has nothing to do with Power null since it was controlling his nerves (similar to puppetry)

 

[Excellence616]

Proposal B: Quincy physiology having resist to powernull

Being on the Soul Physiology page affects all races

 

[Apotheosis69]

Yeah, it being on pure Reiryoku should be on Soul Physiology.

And as I have said before, Aizen says Soul Reapers, because its to fit the context of the current situation.

Completely disagree with this proposal

 

[Johner2133451]

Askin poisoned the air to affect Ichigo (same Ichigo who was considerably holding back even in his shikai state)

Uryu's case, the TYBW anime hasn't ended yet and alot of things might change but even if we go by the Manga, Yhwach was in the middle of recovering when Uryu shot him and if Ichigo didn't make it in time, the arrow would have been in vain.

While Pernida's case has nothing to do with Power null since it was controlling his nerves (similar to puppetry)

So basically what you are saying effecting the surroundings bypass the powernull?

Well what about Jugram's statement that his antithesis can beat Yhwach's almighty?

But wouldn't kenpachi should be not effected by Pernida biology hax if he has the capacity to powernull weaker foes than himself?

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Yoruichi and Urahara resisted Askin's ability, and with Yoruichi he called her a monster for it, implying it's a strength thing. He also told Urahara he has moves for people his typical Deathdealing applications don't work on, which he used on Urahara. Ichigo was just ridiculously suppressed as he only started going all out in TS once he fights Yhwach in the throne room. Ichigo was suppressed to the point where he wasn't one shotting the Quincy girls and Getsuga Jujisho which > Getsuga Tensho which >>> Ichigo's physicals only took off Candice's arm.

Uryu and the Almighty is likely just a hax interaction thing, similar to Orihime not being able to fix Ichigo's Bankai but Tsukishima being able to. Antithesis/Book of the End could be argued to indirectly work around the Almighty hax.

And Zaraki still had his eyepatch on with Pernida so it's possible the gap wasn't large enough to hax neg as Zaraki didn't hax neg Mayuri's shikai and they're both shinigami. On the profiles, they all scale to High 6-A in the forms they were in right?

 

[Johner2133451]

Yoruichi and Urahara resisted Askin's ability, and with Yoruichi he called her a monster for it, implying it's a strength thing. He also told Urahara he has moves for people his typical Deathdealing applications don't work on, which he used on Urahara. Ichigo was just ridiculously suppressed as he only started going all out in TS once he fights Yhwach in the throne room. Ichigo was suppressed to the point where he wasn't one shotting the Quincy girls and Getsuga Jujisho which > Getsuga Tensho which >>> Ichigo's physicals only took off Candice's arm.

Uryu and the Almighty is likely just a hax interaction thing, similar to Orihime not being able to fix Ichigo's Bankai but Tsukishima being able to. Antithesis/Book of the End could be argued to indirectly work around the Almighty hax.

And Zaraki still had his eyepatch on with Pernida so it's possible the gap wasn't large enough to hax neg as Zaraki didn't hax neg Mayuri's shikai and they're both shinigami. On the profiles, they all scale to High 6-A in the forms they were in right?

Pretty sure resisting is different than powernulling. As powernull simply removes the effects of the abilties

But do you have other scans for powernull? Because the only scan being used is when Aizen referring to battle between soul reapers

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Pretty sure resisting is different than powernulling. As powernull simply removes the effects of the abilties

But do you have other scans for powernull? Because the only scan being used is when Aizen referring to battle between soul reapers

Aizen says he suppresses techniques with his spiritual energy, so I always interpreted it as the larger the gap in power, the more resistance you have until the point where you straight up neg or power null the ability. Very similar to Ichigo vs Kenpachi. Aizen's statmement refers to hax, Kenpachi's refers to stats, but I think they coincide. The larger the gap the less damage you take/hax your'e affected by until it doesn't affect you at all.

And I don't remember any direct statements about it besides the Aizen one but there's implied examples. Like a main one is where Gin says Aizen isn't feared by the Arrancar because of KS, but because of his raw power, in which there's several Arrancar with wild hax abilities. And when Arrancar go in to Res, they're no longer considered shinigami-hollow hybrids, their spiritual energy returns to being pure hollow again as noted by Urahara in the TYBW when Grimmjow killed Askin.

In the CFYOW Vol III, Ikomikidomoe negged Ichibei's conceptual name hax, so that's an example of a hollow using it on a shinigami rather than shini vs shini.

There's a few times where characters stopped Orihime from being able to heal. Like I remember Ulq's lingering reiatsu in Ichigo's wound stopped Orihime from healing it, so that's an example of a fullbringer and an arrancar.

This one is more implied than directly shown, but Gremmy didn't seem to be able to directly hax neg Zaraki like he did to Kensei, Rose, and Yachiru. You could say this is because he wanted to fight Kenny directly, but after he destroyed the meteor, he seemed to change his mind and threw him into space. Everything Gremmy did was indirect, like creating something to try and damage him or BFR him but nothing directly haxing him

There's Ichibei quite literally flexing off Yhwach's blut vene anhaben hax ability corroding him away

This one is iffy cuz one character in this interaction has power null separate from the physiology page and the other character has a resistance to the way the previous character initiates power null, but Adult Toshiro was able to neg Vollstandig Gerard's resistance to elemental and freezing attacks that Gerard just demonstrated by resisting and breaking out of Shikai Hyoketsu, and then proceeded to freeze Gerard down to the bone. And when Gerard resurrected with the Miracle, he did it from the raw reishi in the environment rather than the body that Toshiro froze, showing that his ice negged both the Miracle's resistance to elemental abilities and it's resurrection on the object he froze (Gerard's body)

There's Ichigo who's beyond 'just' being a Shinigami at that point completely resisting Aizen's (who's also beyond 'just' a shinigami) gravity manipulation, space-time manipulation, and passive existence erasing reiatsu

There's probably some other examples in SAFWY and CFYOW and more in the manga but this is what I can think of off the top of my head

 

[DavidTPPM]

Aizen saying it's "a battle of spirit energy" and even noting about this being a thing that happens in shinigami battles definitely makes it sound like it's more so an aspect of spiritual energy than a straight up power null ability.

 

[Johner2133451]

Aizen says he suppresses techniques with his spiritual energy, so I always interpreted it as the larger the gap in power, the more resistance you have until the point where you straight up neg or power null the ability. Very similar to Ichigo vs Kenpachi. Aizen's statmement refers to hax, Kenpachi's refers to stats, but I think they coincide. The larger the gap the less damage you take/hax your'e affected by until it doesn't affect you at all.

And I don't remember any direct statements about it besides the Aizen one but there's implied examples. Like a main one is where Gin says Aizen isn't feared by the Arrancar because of KS, but because of his raw power, in which there's several Arrancar with wild hax abilities. And when Arrancar go in to Res, they're no longer considered shinigami-hollow hybrids, their spiritual energy returns to being pure hollow again as noted by Urahara in the TYBW when Grimmjow killed Askin.

In the CFYOW Vol III, Ikomikidomoe negged Ichibei's conceptual name hax, so that's an example of a hollow using it on a shinigami rather than shini vs shini.

There's a few times where characters stopped Orihime from being able to heal. Like I remember Ulq's lingering reiatsu in Ichigo's wound stopped Orihime from healing it, so that's an example of a fullbringer and an arrancar.

This one is more implied than directly shown, but Gremmy didn't seem to be able to directly hax neg Zaraki like he did to Kensei, Rose, and Yachiru. You could say this is because he wanted to fight Kenny directly, but after he destroyed the meteor, he seemed to change his mind and threw him into space. Everything Gremmy did was indirect, like creating something to try and damage him or BFR him but nothing directly haxing him

There's Ichibei quite literally flexing off Yhwach's blut vene anhaben hax ability corroding him away

This one is iffy cuz one character in this interaction has power null separate from the physiology page and the other character has a resistance to the way the previous character initiates power null, but Adult Toshiro was able to neg Vollstandig Gerard's resistance to elemental and freezing attacks that Gerard just demonstrated by resisting and breaking out of Shikai Hyoketsu, and then proceeded to freeze Gerard down to the bone. And when Gerard resurrected with the Miracle, he did it from the raw reishi in the environment rather than the body that Toshiro froze, showing that his ice negged both the Miracle's resistance to elemental abilities and it's resurrection on the object he froze (Gerard's body)

There's Ichigo who's beyond 'just' being a Shinigami at that point completely resisting Aizen's (who's also beyond 'just' a shinigami) gravity manipulation, space-time manipulation, and passive existence erasing reiatsu

There's probably some other examples in SAFWY and CFYOW and more in the manga but this is what I can think of off the top of my head

Most things you say it's counted as resistance, not powernull. An example of powernull is Yhwach's almighty making Ichibei's CM hax useless (which is why Yhwach doesn't have void manip resist in his profile)

And about Ikomikidomoe, that's simply because he has soul king fragment
Resistance to:

• Power Modification, Memory Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; The Hogyoku contains numerous fragments of The Soul King and Ikomikidomoe was able to negate Ichibe's ability, escape his seal and restore his original name by consuming a single fragment)

 

[Johner2133451]

Aizen saying it's "a battle of spirit energy" and even noting about this being a thing that happens in shinigami battles definitely makes it sound like it's more so an aspect of spiritual energy than a straight up power null ability.

So what is your proposal here?

 

[DavidTPPM]

So what is your proposal here?

I mean personally, I'd say it's limited power null specifically against other shinigami/spiritual abilities as that's what Aizen says, not to every ability regardless of source

 

[Johner2133451]

I mean personally, I'd say it's limited power null specifically against other shinigami/spiritual abilities as that's what Aizen says, not to every ability regardless of source

Do you also agree that it's something only shinigamis can have?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Do you also agree that it's something only shinigamis can have?

Yeah that's what Aizen says after all

 

[Adam1396]

Quincies should be excluded from that yes.
It's limited even for shinigamis.

As for plot arrow, this was special powernull (meant to null quincy), it bypassed all yhwach's powernull resistance defense and whatsover. So bringing that up doesn’t really help

 

[Johner2133451]

Quincies should be excluded from that yes.
It's limited even for shinigamis.

As for plot arrow, this was special powernull (meant to null quincy), it bypassed all yhwach's powernull resistance defense and whatsover. So bringing that up doesn’t really help

Ig, tho Uryu effecting Soul King Yhwach via antithesis can be the other arg

 

[Duedate8898]

As I said in the Gojo fight, this is a techinque which would be applied to everyone utilizing the system of bleach as Soul reapers are only unique in that they utilize Zanpakuto to wield the universal magic system. It's more just a matter that no one in bleach but Aizen bothers to engage with or even know of this ability.

So for now, I'll have to disagree with OP.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Yeah again. Its through Reiryoku the UES, and again Aizen said Soul Reapers for the context.

 

[Johner2133451]

As I said in the Gojo fight, this is a techinque which would be applied to everyone utilizing the system of bleach as Soul reapers are only unique in that they utilize Zanpakuto to wield the universal magic system. It's more just a matter that no one in bleach but Aizen bothers to engage with or even know of this ability.

So for now, I'll have to disagree with OP.

So is your proposal that throughout all bleach, only Aizen is capable to do the powernulling ability?

 

[Apotheosis69]

Not really, in SAFWY Kenpachi through just his Reiryoku nullified Cien's organ hax.

And I remember in CFYOW, Due to Tokinada, ofc having much less Reiryoku than Aizen, his Kyōka Suigetsu is much more susceptible to be nullified.

Its common knowledge, Suì-Fēng was just surprised that Aizen was so powerful to have nullified it in the first place.

 

[Bastolan27]

This isn’t just a Shinigami thing. It applies to Arrancar too. It’s all based on how Reiatsu flows and works within each race's physiology and power system. Arrancar share the same fundamental Reiatsu system as Shinigami. Quincies can exert Reiatsu as well, but unlike Shinigami and Hollows, it isn’t a passive ability for them.

That’s why Shinigami and Hollows are capable of passively "soul crushing" others with just their presence, while Quincies and Fullbringers can't, at least not passively. They might be able to do it deliberately, especially in the case of someone like Yhwach, who could soul crush even when he was a pure Quincy. But overall, it’s a difference in how their spiritual pressure naturally manifests.

Power nullification in this context is basically: “My spiritual energy is passively flowing and manifesting at such a high level or potency compared to yours that it overwhelms and crushes your own spiritual energy, and by extension, your abilities.” Since everything in Bleach works through and by Reiatsu, this means your powers can be nullified by someone vastly stronger.

This applies even to physical attacks, like Kenpachi versus Ichigo, because in Bleach, physical strength and attacks are still fundamentally tied to Reiatsu. So, in a versus battle context, the ability should be phrased as:

(Nullifies any power or attack, be it physical, spiritual, or hax, that operates through and by an energy system.)

Since Quincies can soul crush deliberately, even if not passively, as shown with Yhwach during the Friend flashback when he was still a pure Quincy, there's no reason to think other Quincies couldn't do it actively as well.

This is important because soul crush and power null essentially work the same way.

So it should just be clarified as:
Shinigami and Arrancar (passively), Quincy and potentially Fullbringers (actively).

I basically agree with Duedate8898, except for the point about the CRT. I do think the CRT should change or clarify the situation for better clarity in the profiles. I also disagree with the assertion that everyone can do it, but only Aizen did. In the sense that, at least for it to work passively, the power difference should be comparable to the one between Ichigo (Ikkaku fight) against Kenpachi (Soul Society). Even though we often forget because of the power growth within the same fight, the gap is massive, similar (Aizen's is higher, but you know what I mean) to the one between Aizen and Soi Fon. There aren't many other examples of such extreme mismatches in the series.

---

I propose that the OP changes the CRT to essentially add:

(Nullifies any power or attack, be it physical, spiritual, or hax, that operates through and by an energy system.)

This would apply as follows:
Shinigami and Arrancar (passively), Quincy and potentially Fullbringers (actively).

 

[Bastolan27]

This would mean that, obviously, if an ability doesn’t operate through and/or by an energy system, it shouldn’t be nullified.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Agreed completely with Bastolan.


Though Fullbringers have Hollow Reiryoku right?
If so, they should have it outright. Not "Potentially"?

 

[Johner2133451]

This would mean that, obviously, if an ability doesn’t operate through and/or by an energy system, it shouldn’t be nullified.

If you mention shinigamis can passively powernull, then how Uryu was able to effect Soul King Yhwach with Antithesis? Jugram himself stated that the ability itself allows Uryu to beat him

 

[Bastolan27]

If you mention shinigamis can passively powernull, then how Uryu was able to effect Soul King Yhwach with Antithesis? Jugram himself stated that the ability itself allows Uryu to beat him

First off, it wasn’t the Antithesis, it was the Still Silver arrow, which is literally made from Yhwach’s own power.

Second, even If it had been the Antithesis, you're missing three important points:

1. Uryu got massively buffed in the anime, to the point where he can at least keep up with TS Ichigo. He’s strong enough for the power null not to affect him, especially since I specifically mentioned the power difference needs to be massive (like Shikai Ikkaku vs. Kenpachi level), not just a Bankai gap.
2. The Mimihagi-like looking thing that showed up in Uryu’s hand when he first transformed, Mimihagi being the Hand of Stillness, lines up with the theme of the Still Silver arrow and its nullification effect on Yhwach.
3. Uryu is literally a special Quincy, as stated by Kubo himself.

So

• It wasn’t Antithesis.
• Even if it was, Uryu is strong enough.
• He had a Mimihagi-like thing in his hand.
• He is quite literally "him".

 

[Johner2133451]

First off, it wasn’t the Antithesis, it was the Still Silver arrow, which is literally made from Yhwach’s own power.

Second, even If it had been the Antithesis, you're missing three important points:

1. Uryu got massively buffed in the anime, to the point where he can at least keep up with TS Ichigo. He’s strong enough for the power null not to affect him, especially since I specifically mentioned the power difference needs to be massive (like Shikai Ikkaku vs. Kenpachi level), not just a Bankai gap.
2. The Mimihagi-like looking thing that showed up in Uryu’s hand when he first transformed, Mimihagi being the Hand of Stillness, lines up with the theme of the Still Silver arrow and its nullification effect on Yhwach.
3. Uryu is literally a special Quincy, as stated by Kubo himself.

So

• It wasn’t Antithesis.
• Even if it was, Uryu is strong enough.
• He had a Mimihagi-like thing in his hand.
• He is quite literally "him".

I wasn't talking about plot arrow btw, I specifically mention Jugram's statement that Uryu's antithesis would allow Uryu to beat Soul King Yhwach's Almighty

So based of the third point, are you suggesting Uryu should have resistance to powernull?

 

[Bastolan27]

I wasn't talking about plot arrow btw, I specifically mention Jugram's statement that Uryu's antithesis would allow Uryu to beat Soul King Yhwach's Almighty

So based of the third point, are you suggesting Uryu should have resistance to powernull?

That’s a possible interpretation, but it’s not the simplest; Occam’s Razor applies here. The main point is that Uryu is quite literally strong enough for the power null to not work in the first place, and that’s the clearest and most straightforward explanation

We haven’t really seen power nullification happen between god-tier characters. Once you reach that, for lack of a better word, "transcendent" level of power, the difference would have to be something like Mugetsu Ichigo vs. Monster Aizen for power null to even be arguable, if that.

 

[Johner2133451]

That’s a possible interpretation, but it’s not the simplest; Occam’s Razor applies here. The main point is that Uryu is quite literally strong enough for the power null to not work in the first place, and that’s the clearest and most straightforward explanation

We haven’t really seen power nullification happen between god-tier characters. Once you reach that, for lack of a better word, "transcendent" level of power, the difference would have to be something like Mugetsu Ichigo vs. Monster Aizen for power null to even be arguable, if that.

Well lastly, how would you percieve Askin effecting Ichigo with poison?

A: Ichigo was holding back
B: Askin effected the air so not effecting him directly
C: Askin is in the same tier as Ichigo
D: Other

 

[Bastolan27]

Well lastly, how would you percieve Askin effecting Ichigo with poison?

A: Ichigo was holding back
B: Askin effected the air so not effecting him directly
C: Askin is in the same tier as Ichigo
D: Other

It's probably a mix between B and D. B wouldn’t count as a direct attack, since Askin’s Reiatsu wouldn’t be affecting Ichigo directly, but rather the environment.

Also, Schrifts are kind of weird, almost conceptual powers in some cases, like The B, The F, and The V. I remember Radman once saying that Schrifts are more akin to the Soul King's power than typical abilities. But honestly, the best explanation without too much speculation is just B.

 

[Johner2133451]

It's probably a mix between B and D. B wouldn’t count as a direct attack, since Askin’s Reiatsu wouldn’t be affecting Ichigo directly, but rather the environment.

Also, Schrifts are kind of weird, almost conceptual powers in some cases, like The B, The F, and The V. I remember Radman once saying that Schrifts are more akin to the Soul King's power than typical abilities. But honestly, the best explanation without too much speculation is just B.

Alright I added your proposal to the thread

So basically any hax that effects the environment would bypass the Reiatsu nulling (Like make the air do poison resist negation)

 

[Duedate8898]

I do not agree with changing it into a passive power null. Aizen himself when executing this makes it sound like he's actively choosing to nullify Soi Fon's attack. Whatmore, we're also shown that Aizen doesn't passively negate every ability that enters his range or anything of that nature. For example, the setup that allows Soi Fon to even attempt her attack is Hitsugya covering Aizen in his ice. Or how about how Shinji could affect Aizen with his Shikai?

We just keep it as is

 

[Deceived3596]

I agree with Duedate. Just leave the ability as is, and I plan on revising the justification in the future. I will make the justification more blatant in how it actually functions, as it seems like people have misunderstandings about it.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Disagree FRA.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah not exactly seeing this as a full on downgrade here. The page itself already describes it as Limited Power nullification for how the mechanics work in the first place. Gonna have to disagree.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Is that enough Staff votes to close this thread?