Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Churronzon]

the quote is pretty clear when saying that the gates of Heaven or of the Pure Land won't open for MGs, there's no reason these others would, do you actually have any quote saying MGs can go to either of these?

You have to have already known I would say just because someone is restricted from entering heaven/transcendent paradises doesn't mean they're restricted from hell. You're the one making the conclusion that they're exempt from all sections of the afterlife when that's not confirmed.

Anyway, "insurmountably stronger" here doesn't mean anything, as I said before Soul Ranking/Abyss Crossing has nothing to do with power level as far as we can confirm.

nothing at all damn, well there goes my Level 6 scaling

Their doctrine stated that, if humans could not understand, they merely had to gain
bodies that surpassed those of humans.

They claimed that humans were gods in the process of being purified, so they could gain
the bodies of gods and freely use the techniques of God by training themselves. They
were the first mavericks of the Christian Church and they were even considered
dangerous by the Apostle John.

It was known as Gnosticism.

“Ars Magna,” Himegami muttered while touching the large cross at her chest.

The man who had once used alchemy to reach Ars Magna had likely belonged to that
ideology. After all, Ars Magna of alchemy was not the technique of turning lead to gold.
It was the technique of sublimating a human soul that had been dulled like lead into an
angel’s soul that was like gold.

Gnosticism was popular among those who strayed from the proper path in the occult
because it involved usurping the power of God.

 

[Churronzon]

On the topic of souls and the afterlife, how exactly does High Priest's Intersection of Six Paths ability factor into this?

Good question, I admit I know next to nothing about Buddhism. It sounds like he should have an impressive control over the destinations of individuals and/or their rebirths, but that it wouldn't free them from the cycle of reincarnation or the suffering of Samsara that is attained in the Pure Land (according to Toaru wiki and general wiki. Again I'm using cursory knowledge.)

The only way to escape from this cycle of reincarnation and travel to the Pure Land (浄土 Joudo) is to achieve enlightenment and perfect Buddhahood. With a few exceptions, this usually cannot be achieved within a single lifetime and must be strived towards gradually throughout multiple lives, slowly training and polishing one's soul, eventually liberating oneself from worldly desires.

According to the High Priest, there is no path for Magic Gods and as they didn't rise to their position through normal means, the gates of the Pure Land will not open for them.

As for a discussions on souls I think this is the best explanation/compendium on its relevance in Toaru:


Highly recommend for anyone who hasn't seen it. Love how they also connected Accel's androgynous appearance to the alchemical androgyne which is the Great Work/Ars Magna that Level 6 talks about.

Rebis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[XDragnoir]

On the topic of souls and the afterlife, how exactly does High Priest's Intersection of Six Paths ability factor into this?

Ngl, as the story goes on, Kamachi's worldbuilding just keeps looking like more and more of a convoluted mess.

I think we never got an explanation of what exactly that ability does, so no idea.

And yes, the worldbuilding in Toaru got more and more convoluted by late NT and the entirety of GT.

Up until the Kamisato Saga, maybe slightly after it, the worldbuilding was pretty neat, not perfect obviously but most concepts that had been introduced received proper explanations and had more clear applications.

For example, Imagine Breaker and World Rejecter are extremely unique abilities even tho "power null" and "BFR" are pretty basic abilities by themselves, the way they effectively work and how they, as supernatural forces of nature, tie to the lore of the world and the cosmology is really, really good, how IB shuts down things that break the "harmony" of the Phases and how WR sends people to New World, which deals with the unique concept of what a timeline is in the series and then their origins as a result from the dreams and hopes of magicians, everything is just so good.

Meanwhile in GT... everything is just thrown in the wall, specially things related to the Transcendents.

 

[XDragnoir]

You have to have already known I would say just because someone is restricted from entering heaven/transcendent paradises doesn't mean they're restricted from hell. You're the one making the conclusion that they're exempt from all sections of the afterlife when that's not confirmed.

Because my conclusioh makes sense with the quote, yours doesn't:

“What do you mean?’ “You don’t know? The world is divided into different categories: human, animal, deva, preta. But there is no path allowed for those like us who are known as Magic Gods. Yet we did not rise to this position through the normal means, so the gates of the Pure Land or of heaven will not open for us.”

He clearly says there is no path for MGs and since he brought up heaven he clearly isn't limiting his view to the buddhist Six Paths, Kamachi just didn't bother to add the name of every single afterlife that ever existed.

I am concluding that because that's what this quote says, give me a quote saying they can enter hell then. And why does hell even matter here?

nothing at all damn, well there goes my Level 6 scaling

You wanted to scale Level 6 to Ars Magna?

 

[Piamma]

I've told them countless times that text is completely useless, but it seems like they have no intention of listening.
The fact that Magic Gods aren't permitted in Heaven or Hell doesn't mean Heaven or Hell are superior to them, nor does it mean it's a concept they can't handle. I wish they would actually look at the sentence that follows and think about it.

Right after that, it says the Magic Gods wanted Kamijou Touma as an arbiter/judge for a new path permitted to them. So, does that mean Kamijou > Heaven, Hell > Magic Gods? What kind of ridiculous nonsense are they talking about? I feel like I've explained this part many times already.
Furthermore, they are distorting the text from GT, NT22, and NT22 Reverse:

"It's possible to transform the living into the dead. And to make them special messengers too. For example, Nephthys was an aggregate of a large number of slaves buried with the king in a pyramid, and I am a Shījiě xiān who ascended to the position of a sage through death. Those who cast off their former selves for their own purposes. But even for beings like us, we cannot transform the dead into the living. Not unless we remake the entire world from scratch. In other words, it's like returning a condensed diamond back to its original carbon."

"Not unless we remake the entire world from scratch. In other words, it's like returning a condensed diamond back to its original carbon."

The Magic Gods are stating that the perfect resurrection of the dead is possible by remaking the entire world wholesale.

why Othinus saying it's impossible?

Of course she would She has lost all her power now.

I was thinking of just watching quietly until GT Volume 12 comes out, but why is there so much bullshit like this?

 

[Piamma]

"Don't you understand? The world has a framework. Humans, animals, devas, pretas... However, there is no『Path』where beings like us, the『Magic Gods』, are permitted to exist. We are simply too alien, you see; the existing six paths can no longer accommodate us. That being said, since we didn't ascend through proper means either, the gates of the Pure Land or Heaven won't open for us."

"A seventh『Path』, one that does not fit into the existing six."

"It doesn't really matter if it's closed like a wheel or twisted like a Möbius strip. Regardless, we desire a『Framework』that can contain us. When that bastard Saint Germain instigated that boy—Aihana Etsu... Kano, was it?—he brought up the story of Excalibur, didn't he. It's likely similar to that. In other words, we want a scabbard to safely store a sword of immense power."

"It's just that we want the concept of 'peace of mind' to be externally certified, you see. That seventh『Path』I mentioned earlier is the same. It's not about some grand otherworld; we simply wish for form to be given to formless peace of mind. That is all."

Because the Magic Gods are beings who ascended through a special, cheat-like method and are too alien, the paths of Heaven and the Pure Land do not open for them.

Mere concepts like Heaven and the Pure Land cannot contain the Magic Gods.

They want a sanctuary where they can be at ease, even if it's just something akin to formless peace of mind.

This is the summary of the content from New Testament Volume 13, and I cannot understand the mindset that twists this into being about power balance.

 

[Axscell]

As for a discussions on souls I think this is the best explanation/compendium on its relevance in Toaru:


Highly recommend for anyone who hasn't seen it. Love how they also connected Accel's androgynous appearance to the alchemical androgyne which is the Great Work/Ars Magna that Level 6 talks about.

Rebis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'll give it a read, thanks.

 

[Axscell]

I've told them countless times that text is completely useless, but it seems like they have no intention of listening.
The fact that Magic Gods aren't permitted in Heaven or Hell doesn't mean Heaven or Hell are superior to them, nor does it mean it's a concept they can't handle. I wish they would actually look at the sentence that follows and think about it.

I agree with you that it is a bit of a nonsensical interpretation. And tbh, I've only seen it be pushed mainly by folks with an Angels >> Magic Gods agenda.

 

[Piamma]

I agree with you that it is a bit of a nonsensical interpretation. And tbh, I've only seen it be pushed mainly by folks with an Angels >> Magic Gods agenda.

yes I've already pointed to the interview where Kamachi himself addressed why the New Testament and Old Testament developed differently.
It's clearly written there that Magic Gods (神) > Angels, indicating a fundamentally different tier.
What meaning is there in own interpretation that ignores the author?

Specifically, talk of Gnosticism from outside sources is just pathetic/worthless.

 

[XDragnoir]

I agree with you that it is a bit of a nonsensical interpretation. And tbh, I've only seen it be pushed mainly by folks with an Angels >> Magic Gods agenda.

Yeah, those are definitely the worst, it's almost like they're not reading the series.

 

[Churronzon]

You wanted to scale Level 6 to Ars Magna?

No, to its ideology we’re told about in the series and to use the idea that the purification of a soul returns humans to the gods they originally were, implying a power difference in souls.

The man who had once used alchemy to reach Ars Magna had likely belonged to that
ideology.

Btw this relates to my theory for what half of what Touma's name means.

“The One Who Purifies God and Slays Demons. An excellent true name.”

They claimed that humans were gods in the process of being purified,

 

[Churronzon]

Alright let's finally make a Lilith profile. I've been assuming she has baby physical stats, with multiversal miracles for AP.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Huh. Just noticed that the CRT that gave Accel immeasurable LS only has one mod vote. That's... an issue. Probably. After even back then, you needed two mod votes to apply to profiles.

 

[Churronzon]

Tack it onto the Accel CRT we need to make if ya want.
Back to your idea of splitting accel's abilities, in GT12 Accel performed some sort of chain reaction or something to manipulate the weather from his prison cell and struck Aleister with lightning. This would only go in his latest key right?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Tack it onto the Accel CRT we need to make if ya want.
Back to your idea of splitting accel's abilities, in GT12 Accel performed some sort of chain reaction or something to manipulate the weather from his prison cell and struck Aleister with lightning. This would only go in his latest key right?

Ye.

 

[Churronzon]

Here's what I got so far. Tell me what to change

Churronzon/Sandbox6

vsbattles.fandom.com

Particularly not sure if it makes sense to split her speed section or if she should have just one tier

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Actually yeah, magic gods are superior to angels. So causing an angel to descend and shake the four worlds in the process, means a magic god more than likely can create that reaction as well.

So makes me thinking even more that the difference between the four worlds is infact not a power thing, and their position is due to instead the cheat-like method they used to ascend. Thus they perhaps did not obtain everything required to cross the abyss, or something along those lines. Or at least while spiritual rank does matter, in this context not in the same way

Even more so why there is no place for them in heaven, or the pure world. Now can they not enter those places because their existences are too great? (Like moving a limb and nuking the place), or just because they are not accepted? Not sure

 

[Axscell]

Here's what I got so far. Tell me what to change

Churronzon/Sandbox6

vsbattles.fandom.com

Particularly not sure if it makes sense to split her speed section or if she should have just one tier

IIRC, she's supposed to have immeasurable reactions due to the manner in which she reacted to MFS.

 

[XDragnoir]

No, to its ideology we’re told about in the series and to use the idea that the purification of a soul returns humans to the gods they originally were, implying a power difference in souls.

...

In simple terms, you think an hypothetical level 6 will have a gigher ranking soul? Nice, I think that makes sense.

Btw this relates to my theory for what half of what Touma's name means.

Cool, Touma will eventually become the Shinji of Toaru then? LMAO.

IIRC, she's supposed to have immeasurable reactions due to the manner in which she reacted to MFS.

I'dsay she shouldn't have it as reaction, it should be only for her attack, as far as we could see in that moment.

 

[Axscell]

I'dsay she shouldn't have it as reaction, it should be only for her attack, as far as we could see in that moment.

How so? The narration doesn't really say anything about the speed of her attack. It only describes how no one present could/should've been able to react to MFS in time before then describing how her ability to do so didn't make any sense and broke the rules of causality.

Even if the direct explosion missed, the shockwave alone may have been enough to
obliterate a human body. This attack seemed to forget Coronzon's supposed goal of
protecting the temple. If the target dodged it out of fear, everyone here would be killed
and the temple made from a decagonal heliport would be split apart from within.

"Babalon, Great Mother of Knowledge, reveal your scarlet light!!"

Aleister roared, but it was too slow.

At this rate, she would be broken.

Just then, baby Lilith moved her small hand to draw a circle in the air.

But that made no sense.

Given the comparative speeds, it was too late to move your hand after Magick:
Flaming_Sword had already been released. Nevertheless, it worked.

Consistency fell apart. Causality was ignored.

In other words, it was a miracle.

With a sound like a saw's teeth bending, the tip of the Magick: Flaming_Sword was
twisted off course. It was caught by the shield-like circle Lilith had drawn, it spun around,
and it was trapped in a never-ending circuit.

 

[XDragnoir]

How so? The narration doesn't really say anything about the speed of her attack. It only describes how no one present could/should've been able to react to MFS in time before then describing how her ability to do so didn't make any sense and broke the rules of causality.

Then nothing gets immeasurable speed, pretty simple.

And what broke the rules of causality was her miracle, if it was somehow her standard speed then it wouldn't be a miracle.

 

[ShadeyD]

I was told to put these into discussion threads to gain more traction

Reinhard Van Astrea vs Kamijou Touma

The Sword Saint: The Crowned Dragon: Speed equal Touma is in his Crowned Dragon King key

vsbattles.com

 

[Piamma]

GT12

MagicGods & Coronzon Returns

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I think I am about to do something stupid and do another Toaru CRT in a bit.

 

[Piamma]

Do you have any questions about GT Volume 12?

]
Infinitely nerfed Magic Gods (Nephthys, Niang-Niang) vs. Alice:

* Despite being infinitely weakened/divided, this state resulted in a corresponding increase in the Magic Gods' speed and some balancing adjustments.

* According to the text, Alice is at her full power; she isn't nerfed like Othinus was when she became 15cm tall.

* It's stated that even Alice could not react to the first attack launched by the two Magic Gods towards Kamijou.

* Kamijou himself mentions that the two Magic Gods are powerful enough to instantly kill him, even with Alice's protection.


Aleister vs. Accelerator (Wingless):

* Accelerator gains additional abilities through his ultimate vector manipulation.

* He attacks Aleister (and also targets Stiyl) by freely striking them with lightning, reminiscent of God Enel(One Piece).

Aleister vs. Multiple Transcendents:

* Even before his body was possessed by Coronzon, Aleister engaged multiple Transcendents simultaneously.

* She overwhelmed them to the point of near annihilation, and Vidartri, in particular, suffered near-fatal injuries.

Stiyl Borrows Magic God Power:

* Stiyl succeeds in temporarily borrowing the power of the Magic Gods, despite them being infinitely divided and weakened by Aleister.

* Naturally, Stiyl did not become a Magic God himself. Because he temporarily wielded immense power far beyond his capacity, he fainted immediately after the battle.

* He developed his own unique technique to borrow their power, drawing inspiration from Orsola Aquinas's Divine Texture and the general method used for borrowing angelic power.

* The two Magic Gods (Nephthys and Niang-Niang) are also currently unconscious as a result.

* Kamijou defeats Stiyl (while Stiyl was using the borrowed Magic God power) purely with his Imagine Breaker alone, without relying on DK (presumably Dragon King / Dragon Strike).



These seem to be the main points regarding power balancing worth noting from this volume.

Please let me know if you have any questions or notice any other significant details (or if you have any doubts/other points of interest).

 

[Churronzon]

Spoiler: Gt12 review

Horrifically disappointed by Touma's immediate revival and will eat the fattest L on that prediction. Just gonna leave it at that.

Alice was precious this volume and I want nothing bad to happen to her (I did fear for the death flags that were/are piling up). I hope Kamachi inevitably depowers rather than kills her.
Contrary to how people I've been talking to felt, I love Aleister's rage at Touma for returning without Kingsford. If it was Othinus or Index in Hell, he wouldn't hesistate to venture in to rescue them. It felt like one of the more sensible motivations in recent volumes.
Am not excited at all for the NT retreading of characters except for Coronzon's dynamic with Hamazura ig.
Stiyl went super over the edge and I’m not interested in seeing him get redeemed (not that I think he will).
Final thoughts, Alice was the highlight of the volume the whole way through and I’m p much only interested in her wellbeing and character interactions in future volumes.

 

[Zensum]

Cool volume. Random new stuff I can remember from Item 4:

Spoiler

Mugino:

• 3000 Meter/3KM Meltdowner range feat
• Electricity Manipulation covers the magnetism that triggers minor earthquakes and magma from the earth for volcanic eruptions and potentially has the range to trigger Mount Fuji and all the other active volcanoes in Kantou (Mugino is in Kanagawa)
• Electricity Manipulation and absorption of billion volt static electricity from sources like iron sand and volcanic ash can increase Meltdowners power
• Tiger feat extra info (Mugino KOd by rattling the inner ear to throw off its equilibrium)
• Very clear cut casual Supersonic reaction feat
• Mugino grade semiconductor core of a Two Wings causes a diffusion effect in Meltdowner (Probably a Silicon Burn air burst precursor like in Item 1)

Kinuhata

• Nitrogen based Offensive Bomber with Frenda's help. Described as creating an artillery shell past the sound barrier

Takitsubo (No Profile)

• More Esper precognition feats with AIM Stalker

Frenda

• Various new makeshift chemical bombs
• Hacking feats
• Maybe Scandinavian?

Mujinayama

• Capable of the superhuman anti-esper CQC/FTE movement similar to Dorm Manager. (Familiar enough with Mugino to casually evade/predict Meltdowner [Similar to Amata], Understands Offensive Armor enough to exploit counter [Similar to Amata/Sugitani], etc)
• Additional sniper feats from Item 1 and the manga

AC Satelliter

• OVM (orbital maneuvering vehicle) attached lasers from Hikoboshi or Orihime can blow away an entire mountain region, leaving a giant crater

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I think I am about to do something stupid and do another Toaru CRT in a bit.

Bit late, but here.

[Toaru] Misaka Mikoto Profile Revamp

Hey, hey. Fanta here. Here's my CRT for Toaru, let's... You get the point. Let's get this long-awaited thing out of the way. Old - New Here an important thing to mention for CRT but I go into its meat and bones: Per this CRT, the physicals of characters scale to 1/5th of Misaka's Railgun. So...

vsbattles.com

It's time for Misaka's rework.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hm.

• Electricity Conduction: Mikoto can conduct electricity through her own body to shock opponents through physical touch. She can also use this ability to take control of her own muscles and nerves when they have been rendered ineffective through the use of drugs or other paralyzing agents and continue to move. Due to her body's ability to withstand her own electricity, she can resist enemies trying to shock or electrocute her; for example, she wasn't even fazed by someone trying to use a stun gun on her.

Using the toaru wiki, I finally discovered where the bolded part comes from. It's the Railgun S anime and nothing in the light novel/manga shows she could do this. Should I remove it? Although, I think Railgun S was made canon via one of its character being mentioned in a Railgun LN or smth, so maybe this could stay? Idk.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Kamijou Touma vs Beatrice (Re: Zero) (0-0-0)

Kamijou Touma vs Beatrice (Re: Zero) Kamijou is in his Base Key, and anything above 7-A is restricted | Beatrice is in her Pre-Arc 4 Key Speed is EQUALED Both are in-character, but are determined to win Kamijou has prior knowledge of Beatrice's abilities | Beatrice has prior knowledge of...

vsbattles.com

If anybody is interested.

 

[XDragnoir]

What did I miss that Touma is 7A now?

Like, where does the value come from and why Thor and Accel don't have scaling to it?

Is everyone jumping to 7A now? All the Kihara, Mikoto, Shirai?

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah no, the more I look into it the less I agree with the 7A stuff.

.

.

.

What do y'all think about the 7A rating?

 

[Felience1]

Yeah no, the more I look into it the less I agree with the 7A stuff.




What do y'all think about the 7A rating?

I also don't see where that is coming from but i am sure there must be anti feats for that. I didn´t even realize about that change being made.

 

[Buu123]

Hello guys, hope you all are doing well!

Yesterday I made a post in the content revision section about why it makes no sense for Mikoto’s intelligence to be demoted from “extraordinary genius” to just normal “genius” and there I have presented my arguments for why I believe her intelligence should be changed back to “extraordinary genius”. Her combat intelligence being just “gifted” also makes no sense and should definitely be upgraded to normal “genius” I have addressed that aspect too in my post.

If anyone cares or is interested enough here it is:

Misaka Mikoto’s intelligence demotion from Extraordinary Genius to just Genius makes absolutely no sense and should be corrected

So recently it has been brought to my attention by a friend of mine that Misaka Mikoto has been massively buffed in “Vs battle wiki” in almost every category which made me real happy but I also discovered that her intelligence was demoted from extraordinary genius to just genius which is...

vsbattles.com

 

[Buu123]

Hm.

Using the toaru wiki, I finally discovered where the bolded part comes from. It's the Railgun S anime and nothing in the light novel/manga shows she could do this. Should I remove it? Although, I think Railgun S was made canon via one of its character being mentioned in a Railgun LN or smth, so maybe this could stay? Idk.

Since the Silent Party arc is considered canon by Kamachi himself it probably is fine if it stays. It’s an anime only arc but it’s still canon if that makes any sense.

 

[Churronzon]

Fanta already knows my stance. It was clownery when he could fistfight 4th form Shin Godzilla


howdy

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

New Kakine matchup, come vote!

Falling Devil vs Kakine Teitoku

speed equalized (doesn't apply for Kakine's SoL attacks, or anything that might be faster that he could throw out), Pre-revival Kakine, fight happens in Academy City otherwise SBA Falling: Kakine: Inconclusive:

vsbattles.com

 

[Doggo]

Hi Im back! I love the new changes except....I'm not really sure about Mountain level Touma honestly

 

[Buu123]

Here’s the new Mikoto’s intelligence CRT I’ve made. I put a lot of work in time and in it, hope you will like it and find it good. If could a vote would be appreciated. Thanks in advance and have a great day everyone.

Misaka Mikoto’s intelligence CRT

So hopefully this CRT will be proper and easier to read this time. The point of this CRT is to “fix” the recently changed intelligence rating for Misaka Mikoto. She was significantly downgraded from Extraordinary Genius (wasn’t split into categories before) to just Gifted for general...

vsbattles.com

 

[Zensum]

What do y'all think about the 7A rating?

I obviously don't think that tracks at all, but I skimmed the edits/threads and it seems there was support from many here on the CRT for this rating.
I'm fine with w/e consensus for this ig but like you said we should think about what that means for everybody.