BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Adam1396]

Just going by feats is very flawed in Bleach. What if Gremmy’s space was shown to contain galaxies? Would that automatically make him superior to Yamamoto? By that logic, Yamamoto would also be more impressive than Ichigo’s Bankai, which clearly isn’t the case.

You have to go by scaling, so let’s analyze the scaling properly.

Shikai Yamamoto is comparable to a Fake Yhwach, but Unohana—after being defeated by Base Zaraki with no Zanpakutō, stated that a base Zaraki could surpass even that Yhwach. This implies a level of relativity, that actually favors Base Zaraki.

And that’s without using Shikai! So a No-Eyepatch Zaraki with Shikai would absolutely destroy Fake Yhwach very bad, something Shikai Yamamoto couldn’t do at all, and even needed his Bankai to attempt to win.

Let’s focus on the scaling, not just raw feats.

I understand your point but that's not how things work. But most of these done by statements, not actually done feats.

She never said they he surpassed or will surpass. Her statements are implied zaraki can go all out against them even in a lengthy battle. None of these implies his superiority rather the other way.

Absolutely destroy? That's a big stretch.

That's another stretch that yamamoto couldn’t beat royd without bankai. Royd couldn’t even touch shikai yamamoto.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I have told before I am not expert in overtime feat calc. But considering his statements, and what we have seen till now, a bankai can't be left activated for that long. So it's still not a big time frame. But my gues tells me it will be way abive gremmy's feat.

And as for zaraki's statement, he could fight to heart's content means he can engage yhwach in lengthy battle and far from being able to one shot. This makes him somewhat relative but not equal. It's just enemies who won't die even if zaraki went all out.

Yeah, yamamoto doesn’t have much scaling correlation with zaraki.

It’s actually not inherently above Gremmy’s feat. Gremmy’s feat is actually easier to argue it’s better lol.

Infinite9Luck put it best tho, feats are not limiters. Yamamoto having a “overtime destruction of SS” statement doesn’t grant him any inherent superiority. Although I can see why you’d think so since it is a rather hyped up moment. I just think we need to separate hype from critical analysis.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Is there any hope for BoS FTL Bleach?

 

[Damage3245]

Is there any hope for BoS FTL Bleach?

Is thing something that you think would be most accurate for the verse? Or just a rating that you want?

 

[Adam1396]

It’s actually not inherently above Gremmy’s feat. Gremmy’s feat is actually easier to argue it’s better lol.

Infinite9Luck put it best tho, feats are not limiters. Yamamoto having a “overtime destruction of SS” statement doesn’t grant him any inherent superiority. Although I can see why you’d think so since it is a rather hyped up moment. I just think we need to separate hype from critical analysis.

I don’t have favorism for any character of bleach, I love it as a whole. So hype doesn’t affect me at all. Rather I find zaraki's bankai and his whole character, concept of kenpachi hype things.

I am saying what I think. That is yamamoto has solid way of scaling while others can get multipliers.

Well gremmy's dimension seemed tiny compared to SS and considering it's mirror of WOTL so nah. There would still be quite a large gap which multipliers won't cover.

 

[Excellence616]

I don’t have favorism for any character of bleach, I love it as a whole. So hype doesn’t affect me at all. Rather I find zaraki's bankai and his whole character, concept of kenpachi hype things.

I am saying what I think. That is yamamoto has solid way of scaling while others can get multipliers.

Well gremmy's dimension seemed tiny compared to SS and considering it's mirror of WOTL so nah. There would still be quite a large gap which multipliers won't cover.

Without what the TYBW anime gave us, would you consider Squad Zero or TYBW Shikai Ichigo weaker than Yama because they have no destruction feat?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don’t have favorism for any character of bleach, I love it as a whole. So hype doesn’t affect me at all. Rather I find zaraki's bankai and his whole character, concept of kenpachi hype things.

I am saying what I think. That is yamamoto has solid way of scaling while others can get multipliers.

Well gremmy's dimension seemed tiny compared to SS and considering it's mirror of WOTL so nah. There would still be quite a large gap which multipliers won't cover.

Just because you think Gremmy’s feat isn’t as impressive as Yamamoto’s statement doesn’t make that true. Fact of the matter is, as far as calcing feats are concerned, Gremmy’s is just better.

Like what’s your actual argument for Yama’s statement being better than Gremmy’s feat?

 

[Adam1396]

Without what the TYBW anime gave us, would you consider Squad Zero or TYBW Shikai Ichigo weaker than Yama because they have no destruction feat?

I just don’t understand why you guys are failing to understand what I am talking about and very much bringing up pointless questions.

Yama himself doesn’t have destructive feat. Zaraki has the best DC feat.

 

[Adam1396]

Just because you think Gremmy’s feat isn’t as impressive as Yamamoto’s statement doesn’t make that true. Fact of the matter is, as far as calcing feats are concerned, Gremmy’s is just better.

Like what’s your actual argument for Yama’s statement being better than Gremmy’s feat?

I think it does. As I have told you Gremmy's dimension seems tiny compared to SS. Yamamoto is just proficient in controlling his reatsu hence taking slow effects initially.

Do we have the size of Soul Society? As far we know it's mirror of our universe. Idk if it's infinite or not. And what bankai we saw being activated longest in battle. I can't remember any shinigami using it for more than 1 day after activation (it's probably a few hours). To me SS destruction over a few hours seems more impressive than gremmy's feat. And if SS gets accepted as infinite (not sure) it will be straight 3A rating as far I'm aware.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think it does. As I have told you Gremmy's dimension seems tiny compared to SS. Yamamoto is just proficient in controlling his reatsu hence taking slow effects initially.

Do we have the size of Soul Society? As far we know it's mirror of our universe. Idk if it's infinite or not. And what bankai we saw being activated longest in battle. I can't remember any shinigami using it for more than 1 day after activation (it's probably a few hours). To me SS destruction over a few hours seems more impressive than gremmy's feat. And if SS gets accepted as infinite (not sure) it will be straight 3A rating as far I'm aware.

Again, you thinking Gremmy’s feat is less impressive doesn’t make it actually less impressive. “It seems smaller” isn’t an argument, that’s an opinion which is fine, but it doesn’t prove anything

 

[PedjaTarzan]

pretty sure instantenious 4-A feat is more impressive than overtime feat that we dont know if its burns entire SS (universe) or just its Ig planet or whatever place serieteri and other places are set on
Also i asked once but if you can you can calc the yamas feat but given unspecified timelapse its hard.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I used my Japanese knowledge to do this:

I hope you guys read everything.



VIZ kind of used its own interpretation, not saying mine is necessarily better, but that’s how I understood it. Askin never said “only Urahara”, he was referring more to the whole list, which is why it was recalled in full. In fact, Askin is one of the few characters who actually saw everyone on the list firsthand.

I believe this is also Kubo's intent, Zaraki is between the strongest ever and Narita followed Kubo's instruction.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

I don't think Gremmy's Space feat is anything higher than 3-C tbh

That weird galaxy looking thing we saw pretty sure was just a star cluster no? Both in the manga and anime?

 

[PedjaTarzan]

I don't think Gremmy's Space feat is anything higher than 3-C tbh

Idk if im trippin or was it 3-B before being removed as outlier

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Is thing something that you think would be most accurate for the verse? Or just a rating that you want?

We see characters dodge ceros which in guides are composed of spiritual light, reishi is analogous to kishi so this wouldn’t make ceros no different from lasers

 

[PedjaTarzan]

We see characters dodge ceros which in guides are composed of spiritual light, reishi is analogous to kishi so this wouldn’t make ceros no different from lasers

Most of these are dodged trough aim dodging or shumpo/sonido
And i think just being called spiritual light isnt enough to qualify. (and theres the consistency part, source of guide being reliable etc etc)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

More like we have standards for things to be considered light speed. Merely being a laser doesn’t qualify on wiki.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

 

[Adam1396]

Again, you thinking Gremmy’s feat is less impressive doesn’t make it actually less impressive. “It seems smaller” isn’t an argument, that’s an opinion which is fine, but it doesn’t prove anything

Ah.
I should rephrase that.
Destroying such large dimension over a few hours would likely yeild higher value.

But I would ask some calc stuff to check where it might scale.
Can you suggest anyone?
And do you have idea about who used bankai for longest time in single use?

 

[Adam1396]

Most of these are dodged trough aim dodging or shumpo/sonido

False.

Shunpo, shonido directly compliments their combat speed.

 

[Hellscream]

I don't think Gremmy's Space feat is anything higher than 3-C tbh

That weird galaxy looking thing we saw pretty sure was just a star cluster no? Both in the manga and anime?

No lol, it's a direct reference to a galaxy atleast in the manga

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ah.
I should rephrase that.
Destroying such large dimension over a few hours would likely yeild higher value.

But I would ask some calc stuff to check where it might scale.
Can you suggest anyone?
And do you have idea about who used bankai for longest time in single use?

It doesn’t likely yield a higher value. Extending equivalent generosity to both sides, it actually yields a lesser value.

What proof do you have that it would likely yield a higher value? You’ve said you think SS is bigger, but haven’t offered any evidence besides opinion.

Ichigo fought in a Bankai state for 2000 hours training with Zangetsu and White. Feel free to ask me your calc questions.

 

[Adam1396]

It doesn’t likely yield a higher value. Extending equivalent generosity to both sides, it actually yields a lesser value.

What proof do you have that it would likely yield a higher value? You’ve said you think SS is bigger, but haven’t offered any evidence besides opinion.

Ichigo fought in a Bankai state for 2000 hours training with Zangetsu and White. Feel free to ask me your calc questions.

May be not. I'm telling that from all that I know about math.

Wotl has galaxies. SS is mirror of that. We can calc that assuming the size of observable universe.

Ichigo is an anomally. That's the same ichigo who could sense transcendent aizen, got higher than reio husk level in that training, went through very special training.

 

[Naeblis495]

In manga, Ichigo would the one with longest bankai time.All medium, it should be azashiro.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

May be not. I'm telling that from all that I know about math.

Wotl has galaxies. SS is mirror of that. We can calc that assuming the size of observable universe.

Ichigo is an anomally. That's the same ichigo who could sense transcendent aizen, got higher than reio husk level in that training, went through very special training.

I never said Ichigo is the norm.

I guess my question is this: you have Yama above Zaraki because you think Yama’s statement is more impressive than Gremmy’s feat right?

 

[Bastolan27]

May be not. I'm telling that from all that I know about math.

Wotl has galaxies. SS is mirror of that. We can calc that assuming the size of observable universe.

Dude, stop. Using the same level of generosity for both feats, Yamamoto caps at 3-B (Wank 2h timeframe btw). and Gremmy caps at 3-A. Gremmy's feat is simply better in every way, and these are wanked numbers for both.

Obligatory disclaimer: I'm trash at calcs, but I think this one was fine.

 

[KingogKings777]

Wtf did Yama get near 3-B?

 

[SlendVeny]

Wtf did Yama get near 3-B?

Exactly.

 

[Bastolan27]

Wtf did Yama get near 3-B?

"generosity for both feats" "(Wank 2h timeframe btw)" "and these are wanked numbers for both"

 

[Adam1396]

I never said Ichigo is the norm.

I guess my question is this: you have Yama above Zaraki because you think Yama’s statement is more impressive than Gremmy’s feat right?

Tybw zaraki, yeah.

 

[Adam1396]

Dude, stop. Using the same level of generosity for both feats, Yamamoto caps at 3-B (Wank 2h timeframe btw). and Gremmy caps at 3-A. Gremmy's feat is simply better in every way, and these are wanked numbers for both.

Obligatory disclaimer: I'm trash at calcs, but I think this one was fine.

Gremmy one seems wank while not yamamoto's case. Idk if gremmy can get 3A. Wherever he scales, yamamoto would be above him anyway.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Tybw zaraki, yeah.

I gotcha, in that case I can understand where you’re coming from, even if I don’t agree with your premise

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Personally, as a Kenpachi fan (as many of you may know on discord) I think the diff between Kenny and Yama comes down to hax. Kenny is an unga bunga slash kinda guy, he has better battle instincts alongside adaptability and CQC fighting, but Yama has the sauce. Shikai to Shikai, I'd argue Kenny ragdolls Yama without his eyepatch and probably is equal with, but he'd likely lose to hax going peak vs peak since Kenny's reiatsu isn't high enough to neg and he can't really compensate with range either.

CFYOW is obviously an entirely different story and Kenny wipes the floor with Yama 50 times over

 

[Adam1396]

Personally, as a Kenpachi fan (as many of you may know on discord) I think the diff between Kenny and Yama comes down to hax. Kenny is an unga bunga slash kinda guy, he has better battle instincts alongside adaptability and CQC fighting, but Yama has the sauce. Shikai to Shikai, I'd argue Kenny ragdolls Yama without his eyepatch and probably is equal with, but he'd likely lose to hax going peak vs peak since Kenny's reiatsu isn't high enough to neg and he can't really compensate with range either.

CFYOW is obviously an entirely different story and Kenny wipes the floor with Yama 50 times over

In my opinion, I dunno if any captain and non blutt user can survive his bankai in close proximity.
It seems most of them won't survive even in a distance if yamamoto descides to not care about destruction, unleashes fully.

For zaraki I do believe he can slice yamamoto in half from far before dying.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

In my opinion, I dunno if any captain and non blutt user can survive his bankai in close proximity.

That's the funny part, I don't think so either. Ironically the best chance might be Toshiro. Ichigo could beat Bankai Yama since he can resist ZnT with Blut, but again, that's with Blut.

 

[Adam1396]

Do any of you think star level grimjow and top espadas might be a thing?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Do any of you think star level grimjow and top espadas might be a thing?

Are you talking about the Las Noches feat?

 

[Adam1396]

Are you talking about the Las Noches feat?

Las noches+ there probably statement in cfyow

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

No that statement in CFYOW is a common Japanese idiom. It’s not meant to be taken literally at all. It just doesn’t translate well into English, but the point of it is to just highlight Grimmjow is being recklessly destructive. It does not mean he’s literally going to destroy the sun lol

 

[Adam1396]

No that statement in CFYOW is a common Japanese idiom. It’s not meant to be taken literally at all. It just doesn’t translate well into English, but the point of it is to just highlight Grimmjow is being recklessly destructive. It does not mean he’s literally going to destroy the sun lol

Man. Help me with the what raw word being used here
Does its translation relate to "infiltration" or "entry". That would be great help and work as supportive evidence.

Askin minor revision

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Askin_Nakk_Le_Vaar In Askin's profile his Gift Bereich has sealing since it's inescapable. But it mentions people with dimensional travel can enter or exit which is incorrect. Urahara agrees with inescapable part and explicitely mentions he needed to open a...

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