Zeldris vs Jigen (Speed Equalized)

[Himokashi]

Zeldris

Zeldris also known as Zeldris the Piety is Meliodas' younger brother and one of the Ten Commandments that answer directly to the Demon King. He was granted the Commandment of Piety, and is responsible for the ransacking of Camelot and the enslavement of its citizens as well as the denizens of...

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VS

Isshiki Ōtsutsuki

Isshiki Ōtsutsuki (大筒木イッシキ, Ōtsutsuki Isshiki) is a member of the Ōtsutsuki clan's main family and the leader of Kara pretending to be a human monk called Jigen. Tier: 5-B, higher with Kāma, even higher with Ōtsutsuki Form | At least 4-B Key: Possessing Jigen | True Form Name: Isshiki Ōtsutsuki...

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• Zeldris Demon Mark 3 and has "God", Jigen Karma Level 2.
• Speed equalized
• Magic = Chakra
• Location: Hueco Mundo

 

[Demon_Lord18]

You can't equalize stats, only speed

Zeldris has a slight advantage with Ominous Nebula (30 Zettatons) and 25c

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

From checking his profile, assuming I did I good job, he can’t percieve Isshiki’s rods. I’d argue that’s a significant wincon.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Zeldris has a slight advantage with Ominous Nebula (30 Zettatons) and 25c

Sukuna Hikona can shrink and bfr the energy creating the vortex.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah you can only equalize all stats in fun and games section, not in versus threads

 

[Himokashi]

You can't equalize stats, only speed

Zeldris has a slight advantage with Ominous Nebula (30 Zettatons) and 25c

Yeah you can only equalize all stats in fun and games section, not in versus threads

Then consider L5-B, Jigen Karma Level 2, speed equalized.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Then consider L5-B, Jigen Karma Level 2, speed equalized.

You should specify it in the thread/OP and everything will be good about the match

 

[Makai641001]

From checking his profile, assuming I did I good job, he can’t percieve Isshiki’s rods. I’d argue that’s a significant wincon.

Can isshiki perceive ON ?

Sukuna Hikona can shrink and bfr the energy creating the vortex.

the « energy creating the vortex » is Zel spinning the darkness naturally produced by his body at high speeds.

Then consider L5-B, Jigen Karma Level 2, speed equalized.

L 5-B Zel is his CBL key

He is 5-C with God higher with ON

In CBL he is way stronger and awakened His magic making him able to use It while flying and with greater slash range

 

[Demon_Lord18]

He is 5-C with God higher with ON

He is Low 5-B, with something around 756,915 Exatons. 30 Zettatons with Ominous Nebula

 

[Makai641001]

He is Low 5-B, with something around 756,915 Exatons. 30 Zettatons with Ominous Nebula

Oh ok ig it’s fine then

 

[Himokashi]

Can isshiki perceive ON ?

If he shrinks, maybe.

 

[Makai641001]

Byakugan

ON is basically 25x faster than the speed they’re equaled at and It also restrain Jigen’s movements.

Jigen can’t really use anything chakra based as it’ll get nulled by god.

And i don’t think he can shrink darkness since it’s basically a body part to demons.

Rage amps make zel even Faster and he has the demon race regen the LS advantage

If he shrinks, maybe.

Zel could detect and cut small rocks and can even instinctly react to things he can’t even see while blinded etc… iirc

 

[Himokashi]

ON is basically 25x faster than the speed they’re equaled at and It also restrain Jigen’s movements.

Jigen can’t really use anything chakra based as it’ll get nulled by god.

And i don’t think he can shrink darkness since it’s basically a body part to demons.

Rage amps make zel even Faster and he has the demon race regen the LS advantage

Isshiki, in Jigen’s body, doesn’t use the Byakugan, my mistake. Jigen, when shrunk, becomes much faster, just like the objects he throws. Even Sasuke with EMS could barely keep up with him.

Zel could detect and cut small rocks and can even instinctly react to things he can’t even see while blinded etc… iirc

At an atomic level?

He should be able to absorb the darkness with Karma since chakra = magic.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

From checking his profile, assuming I did I good job, he can’t percieve Isshiki’s rods. I’d argue that’s a significant wincon.

The Ominous Nebula can destroy this. Zel has a 4x speed amplifier, which would make him much faster than his opponent.

Sukuna Hikona can shrink and bfr the energy creating the vortex.

Can he shrink something he cannot see?

Jigen, when shrunk, becomes much faster, just like the objects he throws. Even Sasuke with EMS could barely keep up with him.

And how would this help Jigen against someone 4 or even 25 times faster than him?

At an atomic level?

Where was it stated that Jigen can shrink things to an atomic level?

He should be able to absorb the darkness with Karma since chakra = magic.

Characters who were once on par with Zeldris were completely overwhelmed by ON. By increasing his speed, Zeldris became faster than Merlin's teleportation. Why would Isshiki, who is 4 or even 25 times slower, be able to react? He wouldn’t even be able to see what’s hitting him.

 

[karo_senpaii]

bro ishikki bfr zeldris to his timeless void and it's wraps.

also zeldris win con must not be ON. If it is this match cannot work as the slower character should not blitz the faster character when stats are equal

 

[Demon_Lord18]

bro ishikki bfr zeldris to his timeless void and it's wraps.

It is nullified by "God"

 

[karo_senpaii]

The Ominous Nebula can destroy this. Zel has a 4x speed amplifier, which would make him much faster than his opponent.

Can he shrink something he cannot see?

And how would this help Jigen against someone 4 or even 25 times faster than him?

Where was it stated that Jigen can shrink things to an atomic level?

Characters who were once on par with Zeldris were completely overwhelmed by ON. By increasing his speed, Zeldris became faster than Merlin's teleportation. Why would Isshiki, who is 4 or even 25 times slower, be able to react? He wouldn’t even be able to see what’s hitting him.

1. Isn't zel 4c? Which means ON is 6 times faster and not 25 times
2. Ishikki eye is 10 times faster. He can see it fine and is even faster. He shrinks it easily
3. The statement is microscopic.

I'm repeating again either zeldris looses or this match doesn't work. Zeldris win con relies on ON if it even actually is one and if it relies on speed then zeldris who is the slower character cannot use it to win via vsb rules

 

[karo_senpaii]

It is nullified by "God"

No it isn't. Same way tso cannot null space time warping coz there is no chakra to null, it's just a tear in space

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Isn't zel 4c? Which means ON is 6 times faster and not 25 times

ON is 25 times the speed of light.

Ishikki eye is 10 times faster. He can see it fine and is even faster. He shrinks it easily

Where was this mentioned or accepted in the wiki?

The statement is microscopic.

It is far from reaching an atomic size.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

No it isn't. Same way tso cannot null space time warping coz there is no chakra to null, it's just a tear in space

If you can provide scans to support this claim, I can believe it.

 

[karo_senpaii]

ON is 25 times the speed of light.

Where was this mentioned or accepted in the wiki?

It is far from reaching an atomic size.

1. Zeldris is 4c, ishikki is equalised to 4c. 25/4 do the maths
2. Read the FAQ concerning vs matches
3. I know I was correcting him. It would be somewhere between molecular and cellular. It's coz the sharingan has molecular vision and it was still a bit hard to see. So high end I guess
4.

If you can provide scans to support this claim, I can believe it.

A naruto supporter might help but I really can't RN

 

[Demon_Lord18]

1. Zeldris is 4c, ishikki is equalised to 4c. 25/4 do the maths
2. Read the FAQ concerning vs matches
3. I know I was correcting him. It would be somewhere between molecular and cellular. It's coz the sharingan has molecular vision and it was still a bit hard to see. So high end I guess
4.

A naruto supporter might help but I really can't RN

Zeldris is not 4c. I am stating that he is 4 times faster because I assume he starts in his base form, as the initial form is not specified. Therefore, Zeldris is 1c.

Edit: It was specified, my mistake.

Since Zeldris is already in his Demon Mark, he won't have the 4x amplifier.

I couldn't find that page.


Ok

Ok

 

[Makai641001]

1. Isn't zel 4c? Which means ON is 6 times faster and not 25 times

Since he starts in DM3 no

2. Ishikki eye is 10 times faster. He can see it fine and is even faster. He shrinks it easily

This matchup isn’t Isshiki, it’s Jigen.

Seeing the attack won’t help him avoid it he still will get pulled and slashed

3. The statement is microscopic.

Zel has IR with Full react

I'm repeating again either zeldris looses or this match doesn't work. Zeldris win con relies on ON if it even actually is one and if it relies on speed then zeldris who is the slower character cannot use it to win via vsb rules

So a lose lose VS for Zel lol let’s close this

 

[karo_senpaii]

Since he starts in DM3 no

This matchup isn’t Isshiki, it’s Jigen.

Seeing the attack won’t help him avoid it he still will get pulled and slashed

Zel has IR with Full react

So a lose lose VS for Zel lol let’s close this

1. isn't he 4c in his dm3? or it 8?
2. I know the rods aren't 10 times faster but ishikki perception in jigen would remain the same.
3 he has teleportation. he can go to his timeless void and formulate a plan.
4. That doesn't really help considering ishikki and what he does has resistance to ESP and sensing and all. Kinda why naruto fell for it too
5. Exactly my point this should be closed

 

[Himokashi]

I'm repeating again either zeldris looses or this match doesn't work. Zeldris win con relies on ON if it even actually is one and if it relies on speed then zeldris who is the slower character cannot use it to win via vsb rules

I created this thread because I wanted to see how their abilities would interact: ON + God vs. Sukunahikona + Daikokuten. In this case, what would be the solution? Should both start in base form, or should speed be unequalized?

 

[karo_senpaii]

I created this thread because I wanted to see how their abilities would interact: ON + God vs. Sukunahikona + Daikokuten. In this case, what would be the solution? Should both start in base form, or should speed be unequalized?

@Makai641001
@Demon_Lord18

Speed unequalised makes it a stomp. also naruto GT have class Z LT, everyone has just been lazy to implement so I don't think ON can pull him.

 

[Himokashi]

Speed unequalised makes it a stomp. also naruto GT have class Z LT, everyone has just been lazy to implement so I don't think ON can pull him.

So, with speed equalized and both starting in base form, does it all come down to how much of a boost ON and Karma + shrinking give them for the win?

There are still other abilities to consider:

Jigen: Portals & BFR, energy absorption, sealing, cubes.
Zeldris: Black flames, lightning, darkness, curses, soul absorption (which could be relevant).

 

[Makai641001]

So, with speed equalized and both starting in base form, does it all come down to how much of a boost ON and Karma + shrinking give them for the win?

DM2 = at least 4x amp DM3 = far higher
Rage amp = blitz gap
ON = far faster than his normal speed
Full react = far faster than ON

There are still other abilities to consider:

Jigen: Portals & BFR, energy absorption, sealing, cubes.

iirc Zel can cut through space he destroyed the wall less dimension.
In NNT it’s pretty common to see People cut through space Arthur did the same to get out of Cath’s BFR space rift.

Energy absorption slows down Jigen idk if it’s useful here

Sealing and cubes could work against a weakened Zel ig.

Zeldris: Black flames, lightning, darkness, curses, soul absorption (which could be relevant).

iirc Jigen/isshiki is weak against heat so Hellblaze could be good.

Lightnings like Dies Irae wouldn’t really do shit imo except for the lightning Heat thing

Darkness is just part of the demons body It has many properties but just saying « darkness » isn’t a wincon

Zel used curses in character So Yeah why not and his curses negate resistances.

Zel doesn’t use Soul manip in character.

Regen will allow him to tank

We should definitely close this matchup tho

If ON is a blitz and can’t be used it’s a lose lose scénario for Zel
If Stats are unequalized then it’s a stomp

 

[Himokashi]

DM2 = at least 4x amp DM3 = far higher
Rage amp = blitz gap
ON = far faster than his normal speed
Full react = far faster than ON

iirc Zel can cut through space he destroyed the wall less dimension.
In NNT it’s pretty common to see People cut through space Arthur did the same to get out of Cath’s BFR space rift.

Energy absorption slows down Jigen idk if it’s useful here

Sealing and cubes could work against a weakened Zel ig.

iirc Jigen/isshiki is weak against heat so Hellblaze could be good.

Lightnings like Dies Irae wouldn’t really do shit imo except for the lightning Heat thing

Darkness is just part of the demons body It has many properties but just saying « darkness » isn’t a wincon

Zel used curses in character So Yeah why not and his curses negate resistances.

Zel doesn’t use Soul manip in character.

Regen will allow him to tank

We should definitely close this matchup tho

If ON is a blitz and can’t be used it’s a lose lose scénario for Zel
If Stats are unequalized then it’s a stomp

About Zeldris' speed buffs, it depends on whether they surpass Jigen’s boost from Karma + shrinking. Sasuke, even with EMS and Rinnegan, struggled to keep up with him. So, the amplification on both sides should be considered.

Regarding the spatial cutting feat, I don’t recall any instance of Zeldris escaping a separate dimension. Cutting space is not necessarily the same as cutting through dimensions, so I’m not sure if that would counter BFR.

For fire absorption, Jigen didn’t shrink Koji’s flames due to the limitations of his host body. He was barely at 10% in that fight. However, he easily absorbed Amaterasu, so fire-based attacks might not be a guaranteed win condition against him.

Darkness is still a form of energy, which could mean it interacts with absorption abilities rather than being an untouchable biological trait.

My goal here is not to ban ON but to analyze which character’s abilities would prevail in an equal setting, especially the interaction between the abilities ON + God vs Sukunahikona + Daikokuten, without any major disparity in speed or overall stats.

 

[Testarossa002]

iirc Jigen/isshiki is weak against heat so Hellblaze could be good.

He's not. Prolonged exposure to Amaterasu was doing nothing to him. Koji's flames were just built different

 

[karo_senpaii]

About Zeldris' speed buffs, it depends on whether they surpass Jigen’s boost from Karma + shrinking. Sasuke, even with EMS and Rinnegan, struggled to keep up with him. So, the amplification on both sides should be considered.

Regarding the spatial cutting feat, I don’t recall any instance of Zeldris escaping a separate dimension. Cutting space is not necessarily the same as cutting through dimensions, so I’m not sure if that would counter BFR.

For fire absorption, Jigen didn’t shrink Koji’s flames due to the limitations of his host body. He was barely at 10% in that fight. However, he easily absorbed Amaterasu, so fire-based attacks might not be a guaranteed win condition against him.

Darkness is still a form of energy, which could mean it interacts with absorption abilities rather than being an untouchable biological trait.

My goal here is not to ban ON but to analyze which character’s abilities would prevail in an equal setting, especially the interaction between the abilities ON + God vs Sukunahikona + Daikokuten, without any major disparity in speed or overall stats.

from my knowledge zeldris in base is 1c and in dm2 4c. Base jigen is 23c . Which means base jigen blitzes zeldris and is on par with ON. By the time we get to V2 it's just crazy honestly

 

[DavidTPPM]

@Makai641001
@Demon_Lord18

Btw you can't actually tag people, only staff can do that. As in if you tag them they won't get notified

 

[Makai641001]

About Zeldris' speed buffs, it depends on whether they surpass Jigen’s boost from Karma + shrinking. Sasuke, even with EMS and Rinnegan, struggled to keep up with him. So, the amplification on both sides should be considered.

If shrinking is a 10x amp then Zeldris would need both His rage amps + DM3 to keep up ON would Then be faster

Regarding the spatial cutting feat, I don’t recall any instance of Zeldris escaping a separate dimension. Cutting space is not necessarily the same as cutting through dimensions, so I’m not sure if that would counter BFR.

The wall less space is a dimension, tho idk how he’d interact with a rift but he could get Meli out

For fire absorption, Jigen didn’t shrink Koji’s flames due to the limitations of his host body. He was barely at 10% in that fight. However, he easily absorbed Amaterasu, so fire-based attacks might not be a guaranteed win condition against him.

Hellblaze can be produced infinitely without ever tiring Zeldris if the absorption slows Jigen down that’s a serious win con

Darkness is still a form of energy, which could mean it interacts with absorption abilities rather than being an untouchable biological trait.

The commandments could use their Darkness while their magic was sealed (0 magic) which means Darkness is more of a biological trait rather than a « form of energy » it’s like a substance

My goal here is not to ban ON but to analyze which character’s abilities would prevail in an equal setting, especially the interaction between the abilities ON + God vs Sukunahikona + Daikokuten, without any major disparity in speed or overall stats.

I see but i doubt this matchup is fair it can be unfair for both sides.

A fun matchup would be current Percival vs Jigen but I think Percival would probably stomp

He's not. Prolonged exposure to Amaterasu was doing nothing to him. Koji's flames were just built different

These flames are basically impossible to extinguish and negate regeneration Which is exactly what hellblaze does except you don’t need any prep and it doesn’t take stamina + has kilometers of range

From what I saw space time ninjutsu involve chakra, GOD null any form of magic used against Zeldris I doubt the BFR would even be possible.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

from my knowledge zeldris in base is 1c and in dm2 4c. Base jigen is 23c . Which means base jigen blitzes zeldris and is on par with ON. By the time we get to V2 it's just crazy honestly

Zeldris base is something like 0.20c. 0.80c on his First Mark. And something like 1.6 on his Second Mark .

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

These flames are basically impossible to extinguish and negate regeneration Which is exactly what hellblaze does except you don’t need any prep and it doesn’t take stamina + has kilometers of range

Amatarasu can negate dura, burn indefinitely until the target is no more and said to be inextinguishable . Yet ishikki can absorb and handle its effects for prolonged periods of time

From what I saw space time ninjutsu involve chakra, GOD null any form of magic used against Zeldris I doubt the BFR would even be possible.

TSO can nullify chakra based attacks and EE space, but kamui was able to BFR TSO. So power null wouldn’t work on space-time ninjutsu

 

[karo_senpaii]

Zeldris base is something like 0.20c. 0.80c on his First Mark. And something like 1.6 on his Second Mark .

In his cursed by light key he is ftl in base

 

[Makai641001]

Zeldris base is something like 0.20c. 0.80c on his First Mark. And something like 1.6 on his Second Mark .

Yeah that’s what I thought

Amatarasu can negate dura,

Hellblaze negate REGEN just like Kashin’s fire

burn indefinitely until the target is no more

Like hellblaze

and said to be inextinguishable .

Like hellblaze

Yet ishikki can absorb and handle its effects for prolonged periods of time

We talk about Jigen that got cooked by a fire similar (probably not even as hot as hellblaze)

TSO can nullify chakra based attacks and EE space, but kamui was able to BFR TSO.

Kamui isn’t the same as the jutsu Jigen uses.

TSO not nullifying it doesn’t mean GOD can’t

Kamui can BFR it cause the TSO technically just goes through the space rift without « touching it »

God will null the chakra that creates the technique before it activates

So power null wouldn’t work on space-time ninjutsu

Depends on which powernull ig.

If we listen to y’all Zel :
-can’t use ON in equaled speed cause it’s a blitz.
-We can’t unequal speed cause Jigen blitz
-ON can’t affect Jigen cause he has class Z despite profiles stating class G
-Hellblaze doesn’t work for whatever reason despite the exact same effects affecting Jigen in verse.
-Zel can’t null something that needs chakra to activate cause an in verse powernull couldn’t (Despite Both being completely different and GOD being absolute while TSO aren’t)

Just close this if Zel can’t use anything it’s useless imho.

In his cursed by light key he is ftl in base

EOS Zel is used here.

CBL doesn’t have GOD he is just faster stronger and has his magic evolved

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Hellblaze negate REGEN just like Kashin’s fire
Like hellblaze
Like hellblaze
We talk about Jigen that got cooked by a fire similar (probably not even as hot as hellblaze)

The only reason that Jigen died in that battle was because he couldn’t absorb that justsu. So unless hellblaze can’t be absorbed like Kashin Koji’s fire then it isn’t a problem for jigen

Kamui isn’t the same as the jutsu Jigen uses.

Both are space-Time ninjutsu and works by opening a “portal” to send people to another dimension

TSO not nullifying it doesn’t mean GOD can’t
Kamui can BFR it cause the TSO technically just goes through the space rift without « touching it »

Not true, he bfr a Part of the TSO shield Madara used, so kamui was touching said shield in order to BFR part of it. It’s not that he just opened a portal large enough to suck the TSO in without touching it, no he straight up targeted a part of the TSO shield surrounding Madara.

Kamui use of chakra is in the eyes not the attack itself. So either his nullifying the chakra in the eyes or his not nulling any attacks. Atleast that’s how I think it works, I may be wrong though.

God will null the chakra that creates the technique before it activates
Depends on which powernull ig.

^

 

[Muteki616]

what's the speed difference when unequal?

 

[Makai641001]

The only reason that Jigen died in that battle was because he couldn’t absorb that justsu. So unless hellblaze can’t be absorbed like Kashin Koji’s fire then it isn’t a problem for jigen

lol i’ve red It back, he got killed cuz it’s natural flames.

Jigen would in fact not be able to absorb any elemental attack from NNT.

Both are space-Time ninjutsu and works by opening a “portal” to send people to another dimension

One is occular the other isn’t

Not true, he bfr a Part of the TSO shield Madara used, so kamui was touching said shield in order to BFR part of it. It’s not that he just opened a portal large enough to suck the TSO in without touching it, no he straight up targeted a part of the TSO shield surrounding Madara.

Doesn’t matter for the Jigen jutsu

Kamui use of chakra is in the eyes not the attack itself. So either his nullifying the chakra in the eyes or his not nulling any attacks. Atleast that’s how I think it works, I may be wrong though.

^

Jigen must be close to bfr and the source of his chakra is his hand’s Kama.

Zel nulls it